In your game; do they have to go 15 years before being potty-trained? Or do they age like humans but just stop at a certain point?
RPGPundit
Like turtles.
As with wines, they get better as they age, but of course this also depends on the quality of the glass that they sleep in.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;570427As with wines, they get better as they age, but of course this also depends on the quality of the glass that they sleep in.
JG
Because depending on the environment, some elves age like more a cheese than a wine.
The long time to grow to maturity is a bit embarrassing in 3E, in AD&D it bothers me less than your elf dude is 1st level at age 100 since he's probably trained in two or even three classes, while the human gets only one.
Post maturity, the weirdest take on elf ageing I can think of was in Tunnels and Trolls. It was never published officially, but on his web site game designer Ken st Andre had campaign notes about how elves got ridiculously long ears and noses as they got older (presumably based on the fact that humans ears/noses keep growing) and had to use illusion magic to hide it.
I've always like the idea that elves don't age.
They were/are created fully formed and live that way until they die.
Of course that's a mysterious process that raises more questions than it answers. Just like answers involving the fey world should.
EDIT: also orcs and goblins spawn from cave pools and dwarves are carved from stone.
This is how I explained it for my 3.5 games, because I didn't want to penalize elves for what was essentially a roleplaying aspect of their characters:
Elves age normally up to adulthood, then just stop until they reach the next age category. Because of the slow pace and long lives, time doesn't mean as much to elven culture, they don't focus on doing one thing as well as humans do, so they tend to approach training as "Well, that was a good day of training, I'll see you next month?" So they tend to learn slowly.
When Elves get around humans, though, they find themselves caught up in the exotic swirl of the fast life, and things happen more rapidly than they expect, or even notice.
Elves aren't stupid, by any means, nor lazy, but when they're in a purely elven environment things just move slower. "Oh, she's taking a nap, come back in a week or so" is a valid response to an unexpected visitor.
What this means is that you could conceivably have a 700 year old senior elven matriarch who's a 5th level cleric, if she's never left the elven communities. You could also have an elf who left at 25 and who returns as a 20th level ranger at 50. Your Elven tavernkeeper might not even make a secret that he was a Drowslayer for a century or so, leaving it all behind so he could focus on improving his skills at wine making.
Without grace. After a life of fun and frolic, the fae suddenly get dorian grayed, and spend their last years carrying the horror of all the old age they had so far avoided, shunned by a society that puts beauty and the illusion of carefree hedonism above personal worth.
(haven't actually used elves in... many years)
I usually just say they age normally until maturity, after which the aging process is supernaturally slow.
Not to pull a "ITS JUST LIKE REAL LIFE" thing, but I don't think senescence really kicks in until you've reached full biological maturity, anyway, so you could say they age normally up to a point but are resistant to advanced aging, since they're two different biological processes.
My elves are immortal their weakness is stasis at a certain point. They tend to calcify like a tree or even nature itself. Very reliable sometimes increbidly mercurial but unable to change despite knowing they need to. Very much a first race dying race motif.
Having been entirely robbed of the "...Like Fine Wine" comment, I am forced to actually contribute.
I'm rather fond of my racial studies over in le sticky, but beyond that I've always been partial to the sort of 'sudden burn out at the end' philosophy.
In my sort of semi-generic take: Elves only age and mature slightly slower than, say, humanity (roughly closer to dwarves, say..) but due to their vastly longer functional lifespans they tend to treat elves below a certain age like children (much as we seem to do now with young men and women in college, for example...), which can be frustrating for some elves. So a hundred year old elf runaway is physically (and mentally) a full grown adult but in Elven society he is, at best, an adolescent. Lots of adventuring elves are thereby 'children' who have acted out rebelliously and are hanging out with the younger races where their age gets them a little respect.
On the other end, if you assume Elves actually do die of Old Age (instead of persisting until someone kills them, or riding off to some mythic Summer Lands when they feel tired of life)... then at some point, rather randomly (possibly indicating purity of bloodlines, relative nobility or what have you...), an elf that has reached his allotted span rapidly ages over the course of a few decades (out of millennial lifespans this is drastic), growing weaker and more frail until, just like a human, they succumb to accumulated ravages.
The exact amount of time an elf spends 'dying' is largely dependent on lifestyle, general health and vigor, and what sort of care is taken with their health... though I would assume many elves, after a millennia (or seven) of youthful vigor may just give up when they get too old to dance and play and frolic like the fucking ADHD poofters they are.
If I were going to do a traditional D&D style 'age chart', their 'young', 'old' and 'venerable' age catagories would be at most twice as long as human, with their 'adult' and 'mature' phases filling the vast bulk of their life.
Of course, my elves, as magically bred pleasure slaves of the lost Titans, are immortal and eternally young, as befitting the slaves of would be living gods. Who wants useless, old pleasure slaves littering up the place?
They are budded fully-formed from the earth and slowly gather ennui until they must depart the corrupted beauty of mortal lands.
You could always take immortality as a half-metaphor and have them slowly merge into great trees as they age, like in those Robin Hobb books, the Soldier's something or other (or even Avatar), so the wisdom of the elders remains available to the rest. This would also explain why elves are so fond of trees in general.
I think something could also be made up on the immortal=soulless basis, similar to Moorcock's The Warhound and the World's Pain. Whole areas that can't be entered or even seen unless you are damned, although damned in this case probably meant not destined for the Christian God.
Quote from: The Traveller;570480You could always take immortality as a half-metaphor and have them slowly merge into great trees as they age, like in those Robin Hobb books, the Soldier's something or other (or even Avatar), so the wisdom of the elders remains available to the rest. This would also explain why elves are so fond of trees in general.
I think something could also be made up on the immortal=soulless basis, similar to Moorcock's The Warhound and the World's Pain. Whole areas that can't be entered or even seen unless you are damned, although damned in this case probably meant not destined for the Christian God.
I really like Kevin Crawford's take on them in Red Tide, they're truly immortal, with their souls being recycled into a set population over and over again.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;570484I really like Kevin Crawford's take on them in Red Tide, they're truly immortal, with their souls being recycled into a set population over and over again.
Nice, somewhat like the Minbari in Babylon 5 or Buddhists with a better memory.
In gaming terms the most useful would probably be the transfer to trees, what kind of weapons, ships or artifacts could be made from wood like that assuming you could get some? Can elves transfer a small part of their essence to their own bows and arrows, or plants maybe, to control them? Wood lore starts to take on a whole new meaning!
Quote from: The Traveller;570485Nice, somewhat like the Minbari in Babylon 5 or Buddhists with a better memory.
In gaming terms the most useful would probably be the transfer to trees, what kind of weapons, ships or artifacts could be made from wood like that assuming you could get some? Can elves transfer a small part of their essence to their own bows and arrows, or plants maybe, to control them? Wood lore starts to take on a whole new meaning!
When the druid introduces you to her weapons as "My grandsire and granddame" it's time to be respectful of the intelligent artifact weapons :)
A mighty oaken throne gifted to a line of great kings, to grant them wisdom and power, and cement the friendship between the humans and the people of the trees. But does this potent gift have a darker side, forever whispering in the ears of the lords of men? The rabble rousing demagogue Missionaries of the Sacred Flame coming over the eastern borders seem to think so, and the exiled Prince agrees!
"The dark whispers of the demons in the trees shall be cleansed by the Mighty Flame of Our Lord! Repent, o soulless heathens of the forest, 'ere you burn eternally in his lake of fire!"
-Inquisitor Errant Malfrose
"No matter where you stand, the smoke always gets in your eyes."
- Illimar the Blind, Executor Major of Dillispar
I think it depends on the game I want to run.
On old-style D&D games, I subscribe to the slow development and aging rule. On the MERP games, I let them age normally until adulthood, then aging stopped. On the new-ish or 4e type of game, I kind of hit the middle ground of aging normally until adulthood, then they age slowly; not 4000 years slowly, but more like a couple of hundred years slowly.
I can see that in some games I let the other races have the same lifespan as Humans, but I haven't tried that yet.
In High Valor, they age much as humans do until they are an adult. After that point they age slowly, but over those years they begin taking on features of their Elven name. Great sorrows, or great joys, and some magics can cause them to age faster and take on traits sooner.
Examples: Hyulvier (Owl) grows feathers on his head instead of hair as he ages, as this continues he grows fine down over his body and his eyes widen, over more years he can turn his head nearly 360 degrees, and finally he loses his "human" like self and becomes a huge owl.
Elves names are always true (except in a few specific cases, where they fall to evil, or the like, even then they may have had an appropriate name, before their fall.)
Elves of course have names all over the map. Some are named for animals, some for plants, some for elemental forces, and a few get odd names that mean "Dewdrop sprite" or similar things. Elves explain all fairy lore in High Valor that way, from cow tailed hollow backed maidens who lure men to death, to happy cheerful winged sprites that sing amidst the flowers.
Quote from: Melan;570447Without grace. After a life of fun and frolic, the fae suddenly get dorian grayed, and spend their last years carrying the horror of all the old age they had so far avoided, shunned by a society that puts beauty and the illusion of carefree hedonism above personal worth.
Wow, Melan.
I'm pretty set in my Elven lore of my homebrew, but I may yank that for another long-lived race in the future (heck, Dragons make good canidates!).
In my games, they do have a long infancy, childhood, and adolescence. It's part of the experience of living in the mortal world, and elves love experiences.
When an Elf reaches a certain advanced age, they feel drawn to return to the Feywood, a mystical realm tied to but seperate from the Prime Material Plane. There, old elves become trees, and are thence reincarnated into a new life as a babe. Elves killed out of the Feywood are forever lost, the cycle of reincarnation forever broken. (it's also why elves "reverie" in my game, rather than sleep. Sleep opens your subconscious up, which is dangerous as all those past lives try to assert themselves...)
Elves are also the source of magic in my gameworld; meaning if you killed all the Elves, magic would cease to exist (does anyone smell, plot point?). Half-elves have to decide at character creation, whether they have human or elven souls, which has a mechanical effect for spell-casters.
In my Pathfinder campaign, they mature a bit more slowly than humans, but not much, until reaching physical adulthood. They "settle in" to a physical age between late teenager -> mid 30s equivalent, depending on their disposition, as they approach "campaign" age. Really old ones may take on some 'aging' qualities if they've lead very difficult lives.
Until they are campaign age, they are treated as youths by elven society and parents.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;570441Elves aren't stupid, by any means, nor lazy, but when they're in a purely elven environment things just move slower. "Oh, she's taking a nap, come back in a week or so" is a valid response to an unexpected visitor.
This. I like the idea of an extremely long-lived Elf being able to sleep for a week without dying from hunger or thirst. Maybe some of them could even enter a state of suspended animation, where their "dream selves" can astrally project or something...
I like to make elves immortal. I feel that is by far what makes elves different from humans.
There is something grand and tragic about an immortal being that might die from an accident or act of violence and lose thousands of years of life, past and or future.
Quote from: Melan;570447Without grace. After a life of fun and frolic, the fae suddenly get dorian grayed, and spend their last years carrying the horror of all the old age they had so far avoided, shunned by a society that puts beauty and the illusion of carefree hedonism above personal worth.
:eek:
misterguignol? Is that you?
(loved this!)
Quote from: Panzerkraken;570484I really like Kevin Crawford's take on them in Red Tide, they're truly immortal, with their souls being recycled into a set population over and over again.
Yeah, I like that too. It hasn't come up yet in-game, but after flipping through Red Tide, that's how I'm going to make 'em in my LotFP campaign. But I also like that elves in LotFP don't have souls... hmmm. Guess I can just wing it and say, "it's magic, bro. Doesn't have to make sense."
I
was going to give a flippant, "they get more foppish and dandyish as they get older."
Quote from: Panzerkraken;570484I really like Kevin Crawford's take on them in Red Tide, they're truly immortal, with their souls being recycled into a set population over and over again.
That has its origins in Tolkien's Elves. When they die they return to the Hall of Mandos in Valinor fully resurrected. Although for some the process is traumatic enough that they don't reintegrate themselves with the other elves living in Valinor for a long time. Glorfindel is probably to be the only known elf to have died and return back to Middle Earth.
Anyway that the take I adopted for the Elves of the Majestic Wilderlands as well. They do have children who age at a normal human rate until adulthood when they stop aging. MW Elves can show signs of environmental stress which can leave them looking aged although their physique is still of a human in their early 20s.
As far as learning goes the issue with immortality is that unused skills are lost through disuse. An Elf is at peak performance operates at a inhuman level of skill but it takes hardcore dedication to achieve that. If they slack off they lose their edge and if they take up another activity then they may lose any expertise in the skill.
The same with Elven memories, while some remember things going back centuries or millenniums, in practice unless they use memorization techniques, like when a bard or singer memorize songs, the details fade. However if an elf really want to refresh their memory of a long ago time, there are involved meditations and rituals they can use to refresh their memory and restore what they know. Unfortunately for physical skills they still have to undergo extensive training to get their full ability back.
I'm in for the "as humans, then it stops/slows to imperceptibility".
If you go for something else, yet still allow half-breeds, don't forget to factor that in... Otherwise you would have fifteen year old toddlers.
EDIT: I should add that I actually see humans as aging this way, too - except they decay. My mid-thirties self isn't much different than when I stopped maturing, except for all the damage, white hairs, and teeth that haven't survived the abuse...
For elves I think it makes total sense to just remove the decay-while-still-alive part of aging.
Elf 175 years 263 years 350 years +4d% years
That is middle age, old age and venerable age from the 3.5 SRD.
That's how Elves Age. Dead by 400.
But the question is whether a 50 year old elf looks like a 10-year old human, or a teenage human, or a 20something human already?
RPGPundit
IRL, age of maturity doesn't correlate directly with longevity. It's more related to body mass and neural complexity. So most creatures that are human size I assume that age of maturity is more comparable to humans than D&D assumes.
I made a little model in an excel spreadsheet that lets me re-define racial ages to make thing less strictly related to longevity. Instead of making ages of different categories directly proportional to longevity, I use a fractional power depending on the age category.
For example, assuming elves have a longevity of 6 times humans, I assign "adult" age a multiplier of longevity^.5. So if 15 is "adult" age for humans of the era, then an elf adult would be 15*6^.5, or 37.
My elves age exactly like humans. It's their homeland that's weird.
In the elven homeland, no one ever ages, and wounds heal quickly. However, it's like the fairy lands in folklore: each day is the same, fighting and feasting, sex and intrigue. Nothing is ever different, no one ever learns anything, no children are ever born. That's why elves sometimes leave their homelands for short periods: to learn new things, to have a child, to reach maturity. They hate the outer world, because they're more likely to die there, but it's a grim necessity.
The game effect is that elves have to record their birth-year in addition to their age. They may pick up background skills from various ancient eras, to reflect previous excursions.
So: does it take elven toddlers a couple decades to be potty-trained? Not if they're raised outside the elven homeland. Inside the elven homeland, a toddler can *never* be potty-trained. For extra giggles, you could let elves learn their own language in the homeland, so you wind up with these fully fluent toddlers who crap everywhere uncontrollably and talk about an empire they saw rise and fall centuries ago.
Quote from: RPGPundit;571497But the question is whether a 50 year old elf looks like a 10-year old human, or a teenage human, or a 20something human already?
RPGPundit
In High Valor? No. A 50 year old elf looks, more like its namesake (probably not a lot at that age, they're immortal in the aging sense, they just change as they "age.") 50 years old might be a slightly feline natured elf, if their namesake is Leihaur or Lynx. Otherwise they'd look human 20ish. At 500 though the differences are extreme. She probably has tufted feline ears, and a catlike face but still be humanoid. At 1000 she may have digitgrade feline legs, and paw like hands and feet.
Of course if she's known great joys or sorrows, that may be even further along. At 1400 with some great sorrow, she may be a Lynx with human-like eyes and speech.
Quote from: Spike;571432Elf 175 years 263 years 350 years +4d% years
That is middle age, old age and venerable age from the 3.5 SRD.
That's how Elves Age. Dead by 400.
You seem to have missed the first post...
Quote from: talysman;571525My elves age exactly like humans. It's their homeland that's weird.
In the elven homeland, no one ever ages, and wounds heal quickly. However, it's like the fairy lands in folklore: each day is the same, fighting and feasting, sex and intrigue. Nothing is ever different, no one ever learns anything, no children are ever born. That's why elves sometimes leave their homelands for short periods: to learn new things, to have a child, to reach maturity. They hate the outer world, because they're more likely to die there, but it's a grim necessity.
The game effect is that elves have to record their birth-year in addition to their age. They may pick up background skills from various ancient eras, to reflect previous excursions.
So: does it take elven toddlers a couple decades to be potty-trained? Not if they're raised outside the elven homeland. Inside the elven homeland, a toddler can *never* be potty-trained. For extra giggles, you could let elves learn their own language in the homeland, so you wind up with these fully fluent toddlers who crap everywhere uncontrollably and talk about an empire they saw rise and fall centuries ago.
Why would the homeland preclude cognitive development? Does this mean you can't remember anything either? Because if not, where do you draw the line between learning something and remembering how to do it?
Quote from: mcbobbo;571557Why would the homeland preclude cognitive development? Does this mean you can't remember anything either? Because if not, where do you draw the line between learning something and remembering how to do it?
Because it's magic.
Because remembering something doesn't cause a permanent physical change.
Because I'm basing my version of Elf-Land on folklore and fairy tales, not on science-fantasy.
My assumption is that the elves, back when they were an "ordinary" tribe that practiced magic, tried to cast a grand spell that would give them an unchanging homeland, and unfortunately, their wish was granted.
I've written some more on this for a blog-post tomorrow, and made some changes:
(1) It's not just stasis; every physical change is reset the next day.
(2) Wounds received in Elf-Land heal completely overnight.
(3) Wounds received outside Elf-Land can't heal in Elf-Land.
(4) Purely intellectual pursuits can be learned as well; an elf-baby can learn to speak, read, do calculus, compose poetry, study history, but can't learn to walk or control its bowels.
(5) Babies are thus farmed out as changelings so that they can grow physically and learn proper hygiene/locomotion.
I'm also adding some weirdness related to non-elves who stay in Elf-Land, but that's not relevant to this thread. Short answer: it's not good, either for the non-elf or the elves, so they don't let humans in except for short periods, in dire circumstances.
Quote from: mcbobbo;571551You seem to have missed the first post...
You seem to have missed my first post. However, I found a distinct lack of conversation in this thread, just people leaping up to spout random shit about elves and aging at random times before they sit back down so the next guy can pop up.
If my pointing out that D&D pretty much tells ya that Elves are just like all the other races, but this is how their age catagories break down (which is what that chart seems to say) then we can infer what a 50 year old elf looks like by seeing where in which age catagory they fall under. Thus I both answer the OP with hard rules and post provacatively, daring someone to discuss the merits of boring old elves that die at 400 years of age, having spent two hundred or so years as decrepit old men. Just like people, only longer.
Aren't I a wit?
Quote from: talysman;571563Because it's magic.
Because remembering something doesn't cause a permanent physical change.
Because I'm basing my version of Elf-Land on folklore and fairy tales, not on science-fantasy.
My assumption is that the elves, back when they were an "ordinary" tribe that practiced magic, tried to cast a grand spell that would give them an unchanging homeland, and unfortunately, their wish was granted.
I've written some more on this for a blog-post tomorrow, and made some changes:
(1) It's not just stasis; every physical change is reset the next day.
(2) Wounds received in Elf-Land heal completely overnight.
(3) Wounds received outside Elf-Land can't heal in Elf-Land.
(4) Purely intellectual pursuits can be learned as well; an elf-baby can learn to speak, read, do calculus, compose poetry, study history, but can't learn to walk or control its bowels.
(5) Babies are thus farmed out as changelings so that they can grow physically and learn proper hygiene/locomotion.
I'm also adding some weirdness related to non-elves who stay in Elf-Land, but that's not relevant to this thread. Short answer: it's not good, either for the non-elf or the elves, so they don't let humans in except for short periods, in dire circumstances.
That is a very folkloric take on it, to be sure.
RPGPundit
After rereading this thread I knew I should have went James Gillen's route, the whole question is an open invitation for punchlines.:)
You know like "VERRRY slowly" just for a start ......
Quote from: Spike;571577You seem to have missed my first post. However, I found a distinct lack of conversation in this thread, just people leaping up to spout random shit about elves and aging at random times before they sit back down so the next guy can pop up.
If my pointing out that D&D pretty much tells ya that Elves are just like all the other races, but this is how their age catagories break down (which is what that chart seems to say) then we can infer what a 50 year old elf looks like by seeing where in which age catagory they fall under. Thus I both answer the OP with hard rules and post provacatively, daring someone to discuss the merits of boring old elves that die at 400 years of age, having spent two hundred or so years as decrepit old men. Just like people, only longer.
Aren't I a wit?
I don't see how those benchmarks you provided address the question of the length of youth. Yes you can and probably should infer that everything progresses along a linear path, but nothing in biology actually works that way. You could follow this up with other questions, like gestational period. If everything in elven development is 'human times 4' then you're looking at a three year pregnancy. From an evolutionary point of view, it would be surprising to have any elves at all. Their infant mortality rate must be staggering. Also imagine the impact a three year gestational period and a 60 year adolescence would have on women's rights, sexuality, etc.
It's not a trivial question...
Actually, I address some of the cultural impacts of true elven immortality elsewhere. One might assume that physical development precedes mental development in long lived races like Elves. Elven children are running and playing only a few years behind human children, but when human children are building real memories and learning the difference between self and not-self, elven children are... still undeveloped, though they may appear older. Enculturation probably takes a LOT longer than, say, learning to walk or talk.
Of course, in most fictive (vs gaming) setting, Elves don't generally have to worry about being eaten by bears, so massively attenuated periods of weakness are less of a liability for them.
Likewise, if elven biology is 'built' around 3 year pregnancies and true, pre-crawl infancy can last a year or more, they won't suffer from it the way human babies and mothers would.. though most settings ALSO postulate that elves have trouble conceiving, making the idea of a high mortality rate fitting.
I've always imagined (er... not really) elven pregnancies are less gravid than human pregancies. Smaller bellies, less (by ratio or percentage) weight gain, and thus are much easier. It just seems more elvish that way. So an elvish woman late in her third trimester looks like a human woman about midway through her second... at most.
There? Is that better?
Uh, if Elves live 5 times as long as humans, in their own homelands, would it really matter if it took 100 years for an elf child to develop, if it took 20 years for a human child too, as well?
It only really is affected if you have a lot of cross-race interaction. It would be a little odd for great-grandpa to pass away, who was born on the same day as your elven childhood friend, who by now you're physically older than...
Quote from: Novastar;572047Uh, if Elves live 5 times as long as humans, in their own homelands, would it really matter if it took 100 years for an elf child to develop, if it took 20 years for a human child too, as well?
It only really is affected if you have a lot of cross-race interaction. It would be a little odd for great-grandpa to pass away, who was born on the same day as your elven childhood friend, who by now you're physically older than...
Do both species have 24 hour days? Same needs to eat/sleep/replace or repair clothing, etc?
If not, if say an elven day is four times longer, they eat a quarter as much, etc, then no, it wouldn't make a huge difference.
But if longevity is the only substitute change (as is the case in a lot of fantasy), then it matters quite a lot. For example, an unwanted pregnancy now saddles you with a century's worth of support. Heck, you're changing diapers and spoon feeding for as much as sixteen years.
Changes the value of life itself.
Put it this way - imagine prices went up 400%. Would it make a difference in your behavior?
Also, would a 50-year old elf that looked like a human 10-year old be all precocious and smart-ass like kids on tv-shows?
RPGPundit
Maybe. Remember too that we tend to draw out childhood. Back in the day twelve year olds were occasionally expected to knife each-other in war*, get married (and no, not just girls), and occasionally run kingdoms.
So a more adult looking 50 year old elf that had the mentality of a 12 year old is actually better off in that sort of society than the humans who also have 12 year old bodies to go with their minds.
*Egil's saga sprang to mind there... For the curious they think they've found good ole' Egil's skull recently.
Quote from: Spike;572959Maybe. Remember too that we tend to draw out childhood. Back in the day twelve year olds were occasionally expected to knife each-other in war*, get married (and no, not just girls), and occasionally run kingdoms.
That's actually one of the things GRRM gets right in ASoIaF. Jon Snow is what, 14? when he joins the Night's Watch; two years later he's the Lord Fucking Commander. [strike]Mary Sue[/strike] Daenerys Targaryen is 16.
Probably. I stopped paying attention to ages because the cognitive dissonance of my cultural expectations was starting to jar badly.
Works well that way.
Quote from: mcbobbo;572093Do both species have 24 hour days? Same needs to eat/sleep/replace or repair clothing, etc?
If not, if say an elven day is four times longer, they eat a quarter as much, etc, then no, it wouldn't make a huge difference.
But if longevity is the only substitute change (as is the case in a lot of fantasy), then it matters quite a lot. For example, an unwanted pregnancy now saddles you with a century's worth of support. Heck, you're changing diapers and spoon feeding for as much as sixteen years.
Changes the value of life itself.
Put it this way - imagine prices went up 400%. Would it make a difference in your behavior?
According to the D&D books, Elves only need 4 hours of sleep, so they have a longer day than humans.
While traveling, elves need the same amount of food as other Medium-sized creatures, such as humans and dwarves.
Clothing repair probably depends on material and use, just like humans.
What kind of wierd pregnancy are you thinking of that takes a century?!?
Even assuming that pregnancy is extended out similar to lifespans, 9 months extend to 3-4 years for gestation.
Cost (not price) may increase by 400%, but so does your ability to pay, so there's no net change.
Or to put this another way, do you feel human parents are saddled with children unfairly compared to cats and dogs, who rarely exceed 20 years of age?
Quote from: The Butcher;572981That's actually one of the things GRRM gets right in ASoIaF. Jon Snow is what, 14? when he joins the Night's Watch.
I wouldn't say its all that accurate; its totally plausible in 15th century england (supposedly the inspiration for Game of Thrones) for a 14 year old bastard to end up joining an army or a mercenary company even. Its completely implausible for said bastard to end up being its commander at the age of 16.
If there is some truth that children above the age of 8 were thought of as "little adults" (and there is SOME truth to that, though its pretty exaggerated), its also true that they were thought of as extremely innocent, stupid little adults who weren't deserving of being trusted with any personal responsibilities.
Its true that a 12 year old could be an apprentice blacksmith, but he'd also be stuck as an apprentice until he was about 19, and that was just one stage of his training.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;573629I wouldn't say its all that accurate; its totally plausible in 15th century england (supposedly the inspiration for Game of Thrones) for a 14 year old bastard to end up joining an army or a mercenary company even. Its completely implausible for said bastard to end up being its commander at the age of 16.
If however he was instead a peasant girl in 15th Century France...
Quote from: RPGPundit;573629I wouldn't say its all that accurate; its totally plausible in 15th century england (supposedly the inspiration for Game of Thrones) for a 14 year old bastard to end up joining an army or a mercenary company even. Its completely implausible for said bastard to end up being its commander at the age of 16.
If there is some truth that children above the age of 8 were thought of as "little adults" (and there is SOME truth to that, though its pretty exaggerated), its also true that they were thought of as extremely innocent, stupid little adults who weren't deserving of being trusted with any personal responsibilities.
Its true that a 12 year old could be an apprentice blacksmith, but he'd also be stuck as an apprentice until he was about 19, and that was just one stage of his training.
RPGPundit
Lord Nelson commanded a ship at 12. Had to threaten to shoot a prisoner who rescinded his parole over the subject of age, as I recall. Yes, yes, because people died.
That wasn't even as far back in terms of... ah... historiosity?... as GoT would be.
Not, mind you, that I'm exactly making the case for Jon Snow's command as proof of my point. I'll stick with Egil's saga and knifing little boys in the woods while the adults fought in the fields, thanks.
Quote from: gleichman;573633If however he was instead a peasant girl in 15th Century France...
Hey, that was actually a score.
JG
Quote from: Spike;573696Lord Nelson commanded a ship at 12. Had to threaten to shoot a prisoner who rescinded his parole over the subject of age, as I recall. Yes, yes, because people died.
http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/info_sheets_horatio_nelson.htm
It looks like he was a joining midshipman at age 12, serving on his uncle's ship.
The hell? I remember reading about SOMEBODY... too many specific historical details to be entirely my own creation.
Great. Now I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight as I fucking study the entire fucking history of british naval warfare, napoleonic era.
Quote from: Novastar;573070What kind of wierd pregnancy are you thinking of that takes a century?!?
Even assuming that pregnancy is extended out similar to lifespans, 9 months extend to 3-4 years for gestation.
I'm not sure if you're a parent, but the obligation extends well beyond birth, let me assure you.
;)
Quote from: Novastar;573070Cost (not price) may increase by 400%, but so does your ability to pay, so there's no net change.
No, I'm talking about ability to pay in level of effort. Lets say takes (just a WAG here) 100,000 man-hours to provide food and materials for a single human child to become a productive member of society. In a world where it takes 400,000 for an elf, that elf's parents are going to hold more value over that child than the human parents would. Four times as much. In this way, the very elven notion of life and death should extend to every extent of their lives. Remember, everyone relies on their own point of view, and simply borrows everyone else's. So, for example those elves wouldn't go to war, or ever risk a life, I don't think. Not unless the stakes were really, really, REALLY high.
If elves operated the way I see them - gestation and maturity along roughly human lines until adulthood - then you can have elves that behave a lot more like typical fantasy elves would.
Quote from: Novastar;573070Or to put this another way, do you feel human parents are saddled with children unfairly compared to cats and dogs, who rarely exceed 20 years of age?
Yes, in a whole host of ways. Animals typically invest far fewer of their resources in gestation and maybe only a tenth as much in rearing their offspring. If they were sentient, I'd suggest that they value life on a much lower scale than humans would.
Back to a fantasy point of view, I would suggest that orcs should breed rapidly and mature quickly. It would justify their 'throw bodies at it'/'rape and pillage' culture.
Quote from: gleichman;573633If however he was instead a peasant girl in 15th Century France...
A peasant girl with magic powers on a mission from god sent to a nation that was getting its ass absolutely kicked, sure.
That's a pretty particular circumstance, I'd say. Pretty different from suggesting "14 year old boys were commanders of major military orders on such a regular basis no one batted an eye at it".
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;574482A peasant girl with magic powers on a mission from god sent to a nation that was getting its ass absolutely kicked, sure.
That's a pretty particular circumstance, I'd say. Pretty different from suggesting "14 year old boys were commanders of major military orders on such a regular basis no one batted an eye at it".
RPGPundit
though Jon Snow does have magical powers and a magical wolf companion and is in a Watch that has had its arse handed to it on a plate against a previously only imagined foe and Joan of Arc didn't actually have any actual magical powers she just heard voices ... Oh and SoFaI is a work of fiction ......
Oh and Edward the Black Prince was a commander in the Flanders campaign at 15 and at Crecy when he was 16. But you are a historain you knew that .
Quote from: RPGPundit;574482A peasant girl with magic powers on a mission from god sent to a nation that was getting its ass absolutely kicked, sure.
That would be God, not god.
Also.. I could be wrong here, but I think little Jehanne would likely take exception at your claim of her having 'magic powers'. But if you wish to side with the English and English loyalists of the time, that's your affair.
Outside that, I didn't think we were placing limits on what talents or supporters a candidate brought to the table. Next time maybe you should make yourself more clear.
Edit: Need to remove
"She would call it nothing more than the favor of God", she would not have claimed that. I don't know what I was thinking.
Quote from: gleichman;574616That would be God, not god.
Also.. I could be wrong here, but I think little Jehanne would likely take exception at your claim of her having 'magic powers'. She would call it nothing more than the favor of God. But if you wish to side with the English and English loyalists of the time, that's your affair.
Outside that, I didn't think we were placing limits on what talents or supporters a candidate brought to the table. Next time maybe you should make yourself more clear.
The issue the Pundit is raising is not "what talents a candidate brought to the table" but "what reasons the military had for making a candidate into a commander". The side issue in question is, after all, whether medieval armies would see anything unusual in a 12-to-14-year-old leading them.
The reason why the maid of Orleans became a military commander were precisely because the French army was *looking* for someone unusual. There had been various prophecies circulating around, some of which said that they would be delivered from the English by a maiden. There were actually a couple tentative candidates who attempted to fulfill that prophecy. Jehanne was the first one who had the charisma and leadership skills to *really* fulfill the prophecy. After she had her first military setback, Phillip became interested in a different prophecy about a young boy and found a kid who seemed to fulfill *that* prophecy. (It didn't.)
So, the case of Jehanne d'Arc seems to support the position that very young commanders were not the norm. You needed a very special circumstance -- a desire for supernatural aid -- to make it happen.
Quote from: talysman;574656The issue the Pundit is raising is not "what talents a candidate brought to the table" but "what reasons the military had for making a candidate into a commander".
I think the point that Pundit is raising is that Pundit didn't like something he read.
Quote from: talysman;574656So, the case of Jehanne d'Arc seems to support the position that very young commanders were not the norm. You needed a very special circumstance -- a desire for supernatural aid -- to make it happen.
That I would agree to.
But if it happened in the real world, I don't think I'd being overly critical about a work of fiction.
Quote from: talysman;574656The issue the Pundit is raising is not "what talents a candidate brought to the table" but "what reasons the military had for making a candidate into a commander". The side issue in question is, after all, whether medieval armies would see anything unusual in a 12-to-14-year-old leading them.
The reason why the maid of Orleans became a military commander were precisely because the French army was *looking* for someone unusual. There had been various prophecies circulating around, some of which said that they would be delivered from the English by a maiden. There were actually a couple tentative candidates who attempted to fulfill that prophecy. Jehanne was the first one who had the charisma and leadership skills to *really* fulfill the prophecy. After she had her first military setback, Phillip became interested in a different prophecy about a young boy and found a kid who seemed to fulfill *that* prophecy. (It didn't.)
So, the case of Jehanne d'Arc seems to support the position that very young commanders were not the norm. You needed a very special circumstance -- a desire for supernatural aid -- to make it happen.
Precisely.
I'll note I can't really comment on some of the details given by jibbajabba about Jon Snow, since this is talking about spoilers from the books, which I haven't read. So far, what I've seen of him from the tv show is that he's just a kid (mind you, certainly doesn't look 14 from his actor!) with a non-magical wolf and a ragged but not ass-kicked Night's Watch yet (though I can certainly see how they're likely to get their asses kicked).
As for the Black Prince, he was, first and foremost, a Prince. He did not in fact command the army at Crecy, he was just the nominal leader of one wing of the forces, and had very expert military leaders who actually knew what they were doing right beside him (though obviously, he proved to be a really exceptional soldier in any case). As a historian, I'm well aware that the notion that a 16-year old "Black Prince" (only he wasn't actually known as that at the time) would have singlehandedly lead a loyal-to-the-death army of thousands to a resounding victory because of his tactical brilliance is actually far more fairy-tale than truth.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;575052Precisely.
I'll note I can't really comment on some of the details given by jibbajabba about Jon Snow, since this is talking about spoilers from the books, which I haven't read. So far, what I've seen of him from the tv show is that he's just a kid (mind you, certainly doesn't look 14 from his actor!) with a non-magical wolf and a ragged but not ass-kicked Night's Watch yet (though I can certainly see how they're likely to get their asses kicked).
As for the Black Prince, he was, first and foremost, a Prince. He did not in fact command the army at Crecy, he was just the nominal leader of one wing of the forces, and had very expert military leaders who actually knew what they were doing right beside him (though obviously, he proved to be a really exceptional soldier in any case). As a historian, I'm well aware that the notion that a 16-year old "Black Prince" (only he wasn't actually known as that at the time) would have singlehandedly lead a loyal-to-the-death army of thousands to a resounding victory because of his tactical brilliance is actually far more fairy-tale than truth.
RPGPundit
I stand corrected; I didn't mean to imply it was historically common for 16-year-olds to lead armies, but that he would even be considered for the job is one of these "more Medieval than the Middle Ages" things (like the
droit de seigneur and other Enlightenment myths) that I enjoy having in my pseudo-Medieval fantasy gaming and literature. To be precise, I like how Martin pictures young characters having very "adult" responsibilities thrust upon them, which has a basis in history even if it's sometimes exaggerated for artistic effect.
Spoiler
In Jon Snow's case, he becomes Lord Commander after a clever bit of political maneuvering from his bro Sam Tarly; as the black brother's vote is split between the aristocratic Denys Mallister and the down-to-earth, pragmatical fellow bastard Cotter Pyke, the insufferable Janos Slynt threatens to win the election. Sam feeds the right lies to the right people and the two decide to back the bastard of Winterfell. Interesting shit ensues.
Oh, and in A Dance With Dragons, we get a Black Prince-like character in the young Aegon Targaryen, who seems eager to lead troops himself.