Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 09:29:29 PM
I've translated a whole PbtA game, it's shit, narrative control this, narrative control that. It's focus is not to have your PC live in a World, but to tell a story, the players can say things that block what the GM said and become "Narrative  Truth".

It's focus is clearly on the Narrative tm.

If that's an example of the good ones I tremble to think of the shitty ones.

Which PbtA game, out of curiosity?

I'm not saying you're going to like them. Some people just don't like story games, some people just don't like traditional RPGs, some people like both, some people like neither.

But as far as criticism, this complaint:

players can say things that block what the GM said and become "Narrative Truth"

is completely different from this complaint (from Ratman_tf earlier):

I don't want a DM to tell me a story.

They're in contradiction to each other, really.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 19, 2021, 08:55:30 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 05:52:26 PM
Yeah that's great but a heckof lot of storygames aren't trying to be Appendix N they're all into movies or comic books or some performance art shit. Guess if you think everybody's trying to tell stories Appendix N style because you are trapped in the OSR labyrinth you might miss that. Like I got my Fiasco copy here and it's fellating the Coen Brothers not Fritz Leiber.

But sure those are different media from RPGs and they tell stories different ways but it's like "That movie can't be telling a story, it's not a novel" is dumb, same way "That group of people playing a game where they tell a story can't be telling a story, it's a game not a novel" is also dumb.

Is this post some of that performance art?

Pretty hackneyed if it is, maybe banksy wrote it

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 09:29:29 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 09:26:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 09:08:02 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
Ehhhhhhh yeah why not. I mostly seen em in D&D where somebody makes the ten-page backstory though or Over The Edge. Dunno why the last one

Over the Edge is the ur-storygame.

I'd classify Over the Edge with Cinematic Unisystem, Amber Diceless, and Everway -- they're strains of 1990s rules-light games that highly simplify mechanics, but the mechanics don't do much directly. They have traditional GM and player roles.

Forge and post-Forge stuff like Sorcerer, Apocalypse World, Fiasco, and so forth are very different. They're a lot more crunchy and try to put more flavor directly into the mechanics. The rules-light games try to brush past the mechanics to focus on GM-handled drama, whereas in the story games, players engage a lot more with the mechanics. There's more dice-rolling, marking checkboxes, etc.

I've translated a whole PbtA game, it's shit, narrative control this, narrative control that. It's focus is not to have your PC live in a World, but to tell a story, the players can say things that block what the GM said and become "Narrative  Truth".

It's focus is clearly on the Narrative tm.

If that's an example of the good ones I tremble to think of the shitty ones.

Aw shit the thing he didn't like did the thing he didn't like.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 19, 2021, 09:36:31 PM
Try this on for size. I think the difference between RPGs and story games, is that story games try to simulate a storytelling experience (watching a film, reading a book) to some degree or other. The more they try to simulate storytelling, the more story game they are.

I think that's roughly fine as a definition, but once one gets into the details it gets very fuzzy. Is Amber Diceless more of a story game for taking out the die rolls and many other mechanics, for example? Is Microscope *less* of a story game because the timeline is created out of order, which doesn't resemble any traditional media storytelling?

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 09:39:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 09:29:29 PM
I've translated a whole PbtA game, it's shit, narrative control this, narrative control that. It's focus is not to have your PC live in a World, but to tell a story, the players can say things that block what the GM said and become "Narrative  Truth".

It's focus is clearly on the Narrative tm.

If that's an example of the good ones I tremble to think of the shitty ones.

Which PbtA game, out of curiosity?

I'm not saying you're going to like them. Some people just don't like story games, some people just don't like traditional RPGs, some people like both, some people like neither.

But as far as criticism, this complaint:

players can say things that block what the GM said and become "Narrative Truth"

is completely different from this complaint (from Ratman_tf earlier):

I don't want a DM to tell me a story.

They're in contradiction to each other, really.

Cowboy World, by a recently deceased friend of mine.

WOW, you found one quote of mine that is totally different and in contradiction with a quote by a different person, whoop dee doo.

Edited to add: Ratman_tf was responding to a comment about the DM telling you a story, I'm talking about a specific game with one specific mechanic.

Why in your brain those two can be mixed up and become self defeating is beyond me.

So you do want the DM to tell you a story

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 09:57:17 PM
So you do want the DM to tell you a story

But it was Shark who had his brain cells beaten out right?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 19, 2021, 09:36:31 PM
Try this on for size. I think the difference between RPGs and story games, is that story games try to simulate a storytelling experience (watching a film, reading a book) to some degree or other. The more they try to simulate storytelling, the more story game they are.

QuoteI think that's roughly fine as a definition, but once one gets into the details it gets very fuzzy. Is Amber Diceless more of a story game for taking out the die rolls and many other mechanics, for example? Is Microscope *less* of a story game because the timeline is created out of order, which doesn't resemble any traditional media storytelling?

Microscope is like on-the-fly anachronic order simulation, the on-the-fly bit is def new but the anachronic order is old hat. Feels like a collab tech to do backstory for a show or smth

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 09:26:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 09:08:02 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
Ehhhhhhh yeah why not. I mostly seen em in D&D where somebody makes the ten-page backstory though or Over The Edge. Dunno why the last one

Over the Edge is the ur-storygame.

I'd classify Over the Edge with Cinematic Unisystem, Amber Diceless, and Everway -- they're strains of 1990s rules-light games that highly simplify mechanics, but the mechanics don't do much directly. They have traditional GM and player roles.

Forge and post-Forge stuff like Sorcerer, Apocalypse World, Fiasco, and so forth are very different. They're a lot more crunchy and try to put more flavor directly into the mechanics. The rules-light games try to brush past the mechanics to focus on GM-handled drama, whereas in the story games, players engage a lot more with the mechanics. There's more dice-rolling, marking checkboxes, etc.

I called out Over the Edge because it seems to be specifically cited as an influence by more indie designers than anything else. It's basically the Velvet Underground of the indie RPG world. You also missed a couple, like the deconstructionist Fudge or Theatrix, which really worked through a lot of the dramatist/proto-narrativist diceless stuff (the example of play that was up on your site forever is a good illustration). Or Ghostbusters and James Bond 007, for earlier non-indie progenitors.

I wouldn't give the Forge all the credit, but the shift wasn't really toward crunch, but toward very focused crunch. Everything supporting the particular mode of play desired, and nothing else. Many of the 90s indie games were wildly experimental, but still used a lot of the elements of more traditional games, and the innovative elements were often patchwork or piecemeal additions rather than the entire game.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 09:58:53 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 09:57:17 PM
So you do want the DM to tell you a story

But it was Shark who had his brain cells beaten out right?

Mine were raped out by my family try to keep up. It is the marines though so a little bit of that is also possible for shark.

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 10:00:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 09:26:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 09:08:02 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
Ehhhhhhh yeah why not. I mostly seen em in D&D where somebody makes the ten-page backstory though or Over The Edge. Dunno why the last one

Over the Edge is the ur-storygame.

I'd classify Over the Edge with Cinematic Unisystem, Amber Diceless, and Everway -- they're strains of 1990s rules-light games that highly simplify mechanics, but the mechanics don't do much directly. They have traditional GM and player roles.

Forge and post-Forge stuff like Sorcerer, Apocalypse World, Fiasco, and so forth are very different. They're a lot more crunchy and try to put more flavor directly into the mechanics. The rules-light games try to brush past the mechanics to focus on GM-handled drama, whereas in the story games, players engage a lot more with the mechanics. There's more dice-rolling, marking checkboxes, etc.

I called out Over the Edge because it seems to be specifically cited as an influence by more indie designers than anything else. It's basically the Velvet Underground of the indie RPG world. You also missed a couple, like the deconstructionist Fudge or Theatrix, which really worked through a lot of the dramatist/proto-narrativist diceless stuff (the example of play that was up on your site forever is a good illustration). Or Ghostbusters and James Bond 007, for earlier non-indie progenitors.

I wouldn't give the Forge all the credit, but the shift wasn't really toward crunch, but toward very focused crunch. Everything supporting the particular mode of play desired, and nothing else. Many of the 90s indie games were wildly experimental, but still used a lot of the elements of more traditional games, and the innovative elements were often patchwork or piecemeal additions rather than the entire game.

Hey that's a good point there, difference between rules-light and rules-light theme-tight.

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 09:57:17 PM
So you do want the DM to tell you a story

Yes, tell me how wonderful your Mary Sue NPC is. Please.

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 10:04:39 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 09:57:17 PM
So you do want the DM to tell you a story

Yes, tell me how wonderful your Mary Sue NPC is. Please.

He's like Willy Loman without the good luck

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 10:05:24 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 10:04:39 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 09:57:17 PM
So you do want the DM to tell you a story

Yes, tell me how wonderful your Mary Sue NPC is. Please.

He's like Willy Loman without the good luck

What's he wearing.

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 10:06:45 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 10:05:24 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 10:04:39 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 09:57:17 PM
So you do want the DM to tell you a story

Yes, tell me how wonderful your Mary Sue NPC is. Please.

He's like Willy Loman without the good luck

What's he wearing.

An expression of pain, the remains of a sled, and his old prom suit.