Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:56:07 PM
Hey you got any sick burns that didn't get stolen from /pol/ or are you as much an election tourist as your join date suggests.

QuoteNo, you're very eager to argue your post modernist BS because you think we haven't got a clue of what you're doing (your motte), and when called out you retire to your bailey of "I'm just a troll lolz!"

Oh nice, I also read LessWrong sometimes, good for you! Got any other meta-comments you wanna make? Rhetorical superweapons or shit like that? If not great, but yes, I am indeed a troll, you called me a troll, so we agree, kick ass, let's move on.

QuoteLets see if I can dumb it down enough for a smoothbrain like you to understand:

By your re-definition of telling a story, which makes RPGs something that's telling a story, then the following is also true:

People fighting in a war are telling a story, truth is no they aren't they are risking their lives (like the PCs do in an RPG) to affect the world around them. They might tell a story afterwards IF they survive, but they weren't telling one, writting one or trying to while figthing a war.

Nope still not getting it, seems like you're making some kind of distinction between the doing of a thing like fighting a war and the telling of a thing that was done as a story and it's gotta be done after the fact, but I'm still just too dumb to figure out what you think a story is based on that. Gonna have to keep dumbing it down a shave, be real clear.

QuoteNow change fighting a war with all the other examples if your somoothbrain allows you to and the same is true for those.

It doesn't sorry bruh you're gonna have to spell it out, like any good leftist Imma make you do the heavy lifting, and you're either gonna do it or give up and go back to ignoring me because it ain't worth the effort.

Keep up the ad hominems smoothbrain, it really hides the fact you have no arguments.

Also keep playing you don't get it, it makes no difference to me, my point is out there and anyone not a dishonest post modernist imbecile can see it.

Buh bye.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 07:00:10 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:56:07 PM
Hey you got any sick burns that didn't get stolen from /pol/ or are you as much an election tourist as your join date suggests.

QuoteNo, you're very eager to argue your post modernist BS because you think we haven't got a clue of what you're doing (your motte), and when called out you retire to your bailey of "I'm just a troll lolz!"

Oh nice, I also read LessWrong sometimes, good for you! Got any other meta-comments you wanna make? Rhetorical superweapons or shit like that? If not great, but yes, I am indeed a troll, you called me a troll, so we agree, kick ass, let's move on.

QuoteLets see if I can dumb it down enough for a smoothbrain like you to understand:

By your re-definition of telling a story, which makes RPGs something that's telling a story, then the following is also true:

People fighting in a war are telling a story, truth is no they aren't they are risking their lives (like the PCs do in an RPG) to affect the world around them. They might tell a story afterwards IF they survive, but they weren't telling one, writting one or trying to while figthing a war.

Nope still not getting it, seems like you're making some kind of distinction between the doing of a thing like fighting a war and the telling of a thing that was done as a story and it's gotta be done after the fact, but I'm still just too dumb to figure out what you think a story is based on that. Gonna have to keep dumbing it down a shave, be real clear.

QuoteNow change fighting a war with all the other examples if your somoothbrain allows you to and the same is true for those.

It doesn't sorry bruh you're gonna have to spell it out, like any good leftist Imma make you do the heavy lifting, and you're either gonna do it or give up and go back to ignoring me because it ain't worth the effort.

Keep up the ad hominems smoothbrain, it really hides the fact you have no arguments.

Also keep playing you don't get it, it makes no difference to me, my point is out there and anyone not a dishonest post modernist imbecile can see it.

Buh bye.

Fortunately there's only like 9K members on this site and 99K on the postmodern socialist hellhole so the tradfucks will get btfo by numbers sooner or later.

Anyway:

I rolled a 17 on a d20,
Then I rolled an 8 on a 2d6.

What happened

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 06:51:15 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 19, 2021, 06:45:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2021, 10:55:54 PM
Storygamer = Someone sitts to write a story about a fisherman.

I always thought there was a strong correlation between Storygamers and Mary Sues.

True, storygamers all create selfinsert PCs that have to be the most special snowflake of all and can never lose, be wrong and much less die.

Greetings!

All the Mary Sue bitches can be fed to the alligators! CHOMP! CHOMP!

Fucking pretentious, snowflake storygamers! Storygames are all worthless shit. Most of them, anyways. It doesn't surprise me at all that most storygamers are also snowflakes, of one rainbow flavor or another.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah man, kill em, kill em all, show 'em what their pretensions look like on the barrel of a gun.

Pile the bodies high and burn 'em with their itch.io pdfs printed out for kindling.

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:56:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 06:51:15 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 19, 2021, 06:45:35 PM
I always thought there was a strong correlation between Storygamers and Mary Sues.

True, storygamers all create selfinsert PCs that have to be the most special snowflake of all and can never lose, be wrong and much less die.

Yeah man Fiasco and Dread and shit are real non-lethal.

Yeah, as This Guy says, there are plenty of high-lethality story games -- Fiasco and Dread are popular examples, and Apocalypse World is also relatively lethal as well.

In general, I see little resemblance between SHARK or GeekyBugle's picture of story games, and how actual games like Fiasco, Dread, and so forth are really played.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 07:41:05 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:56:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 06:51:15 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 19, 2021, 06:45:35 PM
I always thought there was a strong correlation between Storygamers and Mary Sues.

True, storygamers all create selfinsert PCs that have to be the most special snowflake of all and can never lose, be wrong and much less die.

Yeah man Fiasco and Dread and shit are real non-lethal.

Yeah, as This Guy says, there are plenty of high-lethality story games -- Fiasco and Dread are popular examples, and Apocalypse World is also relatively lethal as well.

In general, I see little resemblance between SHARK or GeekyBugle's picture of story games, and how actual games like Fiasco, Dread, and so forth are really played.

Argument from incredulity

Also anecdotal evidence.

You're not good at the logic are you?

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 07:41:05 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:56:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 06:51:15 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 19, 2021, 06:45:35 PM
I always thought there was a strong correlation between Storygamers and Mary Sues.

True, storygamers all create selfinsert PCs that have to be the most special snowflake of all and can never lose, be wrong and much less die.

Yeah man Fiasco and Dread and shit are real non-lethal.

Yeah, as This Guy says, there are plenty of high-lethality story games -- Fiasco and Dread are popular examples, and Apocalypse World is also relatively lethal as well.

In general, I see little resemblance between SHARK or GeekyBugle's picture of story games, and how actual games like Fiasco, Dread, and so forth are really played.

Now in probably undeserved fairness to 'em there's lots of nonlethal storygames but it sure ain't a monolith.

Edit: kim you might wanna not waste your time until Geeky's had his nappies, his blood is up and he's just describing rhetorical terms now.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 07:41:05 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:56:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 06:51:15 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 19, 2021, 06:45:35 PM
I always thought there was a strong correlation between Storygamers and Mary Sues.

True, storygamers all create selfinsert PCs that have to be the most special snowflake of all and can never lose, be wrong and much less die.

Yeah man Fiasco and Dread and shit are real non-lethal.

Yeah, as This Guy says, there are plenty of high-lethality story games -- Fiasco and Dread are popular examples, and Apocalypse World is also relatively lethal as well.

In general, I see little resemblance between SHARK or GeekyBugle's picture of story games, and how actual games like Fiasco, Dread, and so forth are really played.

Greetings!

Hi there, Jhkim! Well, just going on the merits of a game--mechanics, style, presentation, etc, there definitely seems to be a huge contrast. Lots of games here have fans--D&D, Talislanta, COC, Pendragon, WHFRP, Harn, even Rolemaster!--of course, each also having some members that don't like them, for various reasons. All of which are often discussed and debated with extensive commentary, quotes, and examples, both for and against.

That's all good and well. I find such discussions usually interesting, often educational, as well as humorous, regardless of an individual member's stance on a particular game.

Ahh. But STORYGAMES! Members here in the vast majority--revile such storygames, with unrelenting fury and disdain. Not only is such opposition both wide and deep--but the nature of that opposition is consistent. Point after point, storygames' deficiencies are described, and roundly mocked.

I haven't played many storygames--though what I have personally read and seen of them--apart from here--has certainly not impressed me. Then, in reviewing commentary here, even the many storygames I haven't played or seen--members here describe them all as possessing the same flaws and terrible design found in other storygames--including the few that I have seen and read.

There is very clearly a common set of mechanics, design choices, and presentation dynamics that most members here hate--but also seem to be distinctly different from many other games, such as the games I mentioned above.

Why do you think that opposition and hatred is so consistent? In storygame after storygame, the same terrible flaws are always mentioned.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 05:52:26 PM
Yeah that's great but a heckof lot of storygames aren't trying to be Appendix N they're all into movies or comic books or some performance art shit. Guess if you think everybody's trying to tell stories Appendix N style because you are trapped in the OSR labyrinth you might miss that. Like I got my Fiasco copy here and it's fellating the Coen Brothers not Fritz Leiber.

But sure those are different media from RPGs and they tell stories different ways but it's like "That movie can't be telling a story, it's not a novel" is dumb, same way "That group of people playing a game where they tell a story can't be telling a story, it's a game not a novel" is also dumb.

Is this post some of that performance art?

Quote from: SHARK on April 19, 2021, 08:34:52 PM
Ahh. But STORYGAMES! Members here in the vast majority--revile such storygames, with unrelenting fury and disdain. Not only is such opposition both wide and deep--but the nature of that opposition is consistent. Point after point, storygames' deficiencies are described, and roundly mocked.

I haven't played many storygames--though what I have personally read and seen of them--apart from here--has certainly not impressed me. Then, in reviewing commentary here, even the many storygames I haven't played or seen--members here describe them all as possessing the same flaws and terrible design found in other storygames--including the few that I have seen and read.

What are the few that you've seen and read? I've played extended campaigns of Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard, In a Wicked Age, Lacuna, Dungeon World, Monster of the Week, and Fate, along with dozens of one-shots of many games, including Fiasco, Microscope, and Bluebeard's Bride as some of my more common choices. I feel most of these are quite different from each other.

Maybe you've played a bunch that aren't really suited to your tastes.

Quote from: SHARK on April 19, 2021, 08:34:52 PM
There is very clearly a common set of mechanics, design choices, and presentation dynamics that most members here hate--but also seem to be distinctly different from many other games, such as the games I mentioned above.

Why do you think that opposition and hatred is so consistent? In storygame after storygame, the same terrible flaws are always mentioned.

I don't like to speculate on other people's motives. I can talk to my own experience, but other people can speak about what they think and why.

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:47:28 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 19, 2021, 06:45:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2021, 10:55:54 PM
Storygamer = Someone sitts to write a story about a fisherman.

I always thought there was a strong correlation between Storygamers and Mary Sues.

Ehhhhhhh yeah why not. I mostly seen em in D&D where somebody makes the ten-page backstory though or Over The Edge. Dunno why the last one

Over the Edge is the ur-storygame.

Quote from: SHARK on April 19, 2021, 08:34:52 PM
Ahh. But STORYGAMES! Members here in the vast majority--revile such storygames, with unrelenting fury and disdain. Not only is such opposition both wide and deep--but the nature of that opposition is consistent. Point after point, storygames' deficiencies are described, and roundly mocked.

Not me. I'm mostly amused by the fascination with bacon.

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 09:08:02 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
Ehhhhhhh yeah why not. I mostly seen em in D&D where somebody makes the ten-page backstory though or Over The Edge. Dunno why the last one

Over the Edge is the ur-storygame.

I'd classify Over the Edge with Cinematic Unisystem, Amber Diceless, and Everway -- they're strains of 1990s rules-light games that highly simplify mechanics, but the mechanics don't do much directly. They have traditional GM and player roles.

Forge and post-Forge stuff like Sorcerer, Apocalypse World, Fiasco, and so forth are very different. They're a lot more crunchy and try to put more flavor directly into the mechanics. The rules-light games try to brush past the mechanics to focus on GM-handled drama, whereas in the story games, players engage a lot more with the mechanics. There's more dice-rolling, marking checkboxes, etc.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 09:26:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2021, 09:08:02 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
Ehhhhhhh yeah why not. I mostly seen em in D&D where somebody makes the ten-page backstory though or Over The Edge. Dunno why the last one

Over the Edge is the ur-storygame.

I'd classify Over the Edge with Cinematic Unisystem, Amber Diceless, and Everway -- they're strains of 1990s rules-light games that highly simplify mechanics, but the mechanics don't do much directly. They have traditional GM and player roles.

Forge and post-Forge stuff like Sorcerer, Apocalypse World, Fiasco, and so forth are very different. They're a lot more crunchy and try to put more flavor directly into the mechanics. The rules-light games try to brush past the mechanics to focus on GM-handled drama, whereas in the story games, players engage a lot more with the mechanics. There's more dice-rolling, marking checkboxes, etc.

I've translated a whole PbtA game, it's shit, narrative control this, narrative control that. It's focus is not to have your PC live in a World, but to tell a story, the players can say things that block what the GM said and become "Narrative  Truth".

It's focus is clearly on the Narrative tm.

If that's an example of the good ones I tremble to think of the shitty ones.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 05:10:02 PM
To the OP: "story games" usually refers to a cluster of games starting around 2000 that have mechanics that diverge a lot from traditional RPGs like D&D and GURPS. The precursors were the "New Style" games of Hogshead Games in the 1990s like Baron Munchausen, Puppetland, and Pantheon. This was followed by a group of games promoted by The Forge (www.indie-rpgs.com), including Sorcerer, Burning Wheel, and Dogs in the Vineyard. The Forge faded in the mid-2000s, and the games that followed included Fiasco and Apocalypse World, and the numerous Apocalypse World derived games. I'd say that the Fate system is often also considered a story game, though it is borderline with traditional games -- and it didn't develop on The Forge or successor sites.

I joined this forum in 2006 - and it was much less political, but RPGPundit still ranted against these sort of games - as well as against some more traditional games like Blue Rose (originally published as the True20 system). At the time, he was using the True20 mechanics rather than anything old-school, but still had a historical bent to his games.

A lot of the sniping is One-True-Wayism, in my opinion. There have been story game advocates like Ron Edwards who looked down on traditional RPGs, but there have also always been people who pushed their game as superior, and others as inferior.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 19, 2021, 04:12:09 PM
I do think that stories imply linearity. A typical film or book has a definite, linear structure, and by it's nature a set story. There are no players interacting with it. IMO linear, railroady adventures came about due to trying to shoehorn an RPG scenario into a story shaped hole, and suffered for it. They were popular, but I think that's where the phenomenon of people buying RPG as literature and not as gaming material came about. And it makes sense. As adventures got more focused on telling a story.
The wrinkle is that there is a DM, who can take a railroad adventure off the rails if they so choose. I can take the most railroady scenario as a starting point, and open it up to be more like a scenario. It puts more work on the DM's shoulders to improvise, but many GMs have a lot of experience with that.

I agree about this. The funny thing to me is that "story games" are very much opposed to traditional railroaded modules. The games with the most railroaded modules are 1990s traditional RPGs, not story games. I think the key is here:

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 17, 2021, 06:02:19 PM

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 17, 2021, 04:45:42 PM
Storygames have been around for decades. See DMs running campaigns. It's the same thing. Players want their DM to tell them stories about what their characters do.

I don't want a DM to tell me a story. I've got books and films for that. I want to participate in an adventure.
And that, dear friends, is the difference between telling a story, and playing in an RPG.

But the published works generally called "story games" aren't about the DM telling a story. Heck, a lot of story games are GMless - like Fiasco or The Quiet Year. Even among those that have a GM, the GM often has less control over the game than in a traditional RPG -- by giving more narrational power to players in some circumstances.

I think some people can validly complain "I don't like controlling things outside of my PCs actions" as a problem with many story games. But "I don't want a DM to tell me a story" doesn't fit.

Try this on for size. I think the difference between RPGs and story games, is that story games try to simulate a storytelling experience (watching a film, reading a book) to some degree or other. The more they try to simulate storytelling, the more story game they are.