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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?

Started by Dan Davenport, July 27, 2012, 07:31:34 AM

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jhkim

Quote from: LordVreeg;568689In my "what's behind the Door" analogy below, the player may have to ask questions to get the information they need.  Asking questions out loud, for a player, is one of the ways they feel the world around them.  These questions do not break immersion (unless someone starts cracking up, whcih has happened), it is the process all players go through constantly to 'see' the world around them and 'know' things their character would know.  Asking questions and getting feedback is the equivalent of how we really interpret the world around us; our eyes, ears, nose, memories are 'passive receptors', taking in data.  Staying in character requires information gathering to be a 'passive reception'.

Because playing the role and roleplaying requires the player to act like they do in the real world as a person does, and with things not described to be assumed to be the same as the real world around the player.  I can sit here at my desk and look around the room, and look around, listen or look back into my memory or knowledge base.  I can sit here at my desk and look around the room, and look around, listen or look back into my memory or knowledge base.  I can also stand up and turn on the stereo that I see in the room.
Immersion works differently for different people, but I find that extended Q&A about what my character sees can be harmful to immersion for some players.  Out-of-character Q&A doesn't work the way that senses and memory work in the real world.  If my character knows something, she just knows it - she doesn't mentally ask her memory things and then interpret the answer.  

When the GM makes an initial description, like "When you enter, you find it is a dimly-lit, dingy tavern with about a dozen lower-class customers mostly clustered in the back corner."  At that point, even though the GM hasn't specified many details, I have already started imagining what it looks like in my mind's eye.  That's just natural. Further, in practice I'm never going to wait until every detail of the room is described before I declare an action.  

At this point, it may be more immersive for me to act on what I am currently imagining rather than on only what the GM said.  So if I already imagined that there is a bar with a bartender, it's more like my being there to just say "I go up to the bar and ask for a drink" rather than ask the GM "Is there a bar here?"  

What's especially breaking of my immersion is assumption clash - where, say, I declare actions based on what I am imagining, but other players declare actions based on a different picture.  So one player might say, "I pull up a seat at a table" imagining that that is the norm - and when I say I go up to the bar, that player says "Wait, if there's a bar here I would have gone up to the bar, not sat at a table."  There are an infinite number of details like this that could potentially affect actions, and the GM can't possibly verbally describe them all.  Not having and/or not acting on those details is a difference from real life that is important to some people.  

I would agree that my consciously choosing to insert a bar would be anti-immersive, but it is compatible with immersion to act on how I already imagine that things are.  Also, revising my vision of the bar in the middle of being there is anti-immersive.  The point is that nothing is an exact simulation of being there, so it's more a question of which differences from reality are more important to you.

Exploderwizard

Quote from: jhkim;568746Further, in practice I'm never going to wait until every detail of the room is described before I declare an action.  


Here's your problem. Assuming shit BEFORE you have all the data.

Ease up on the caffiene and wait until the area is described.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

The Traveller

Quote from: gleichman;568744I'm really not interested in what definition of immersion you're using. I flatly don't care (other than noting that quoting other gamers with no more authority over what I consider immersion then yourself is rather lame).

What I do care about is:

Is it your stance that not only is there only the 'LordVreeg's approved definition of immersion'?

I'll take your indirect reply you provided as an Yes, that leaves open the following question:

Do you also believe that "a person can only reach a state of immersion through LordVreeg's approved mechanics and methods'.
Bit of a contrarian aren't you? No matter who says what you need to have a different opinion. At least the other two have some semblance of philosophical integrity, even if misguided and in places confused.

"An RPG contains both game and meta-game activities and events. Role-playing proper can be spawned from either. " -> Roleplaying can be spawned by a game of golf if you want it to. And in fairness if you want to criticise Justin's work, go for it, don't dodge the question by attacking the man himself.
"These children are playing with dark and dangerous powers!"
"What else are you meant to do with dark and dangerous powers?"
A concise overview of GNS theory.
Quote from: that muppet vince baker on RPGsIf you care about character arcs or any, any, any lit 101 stuff, I\'d choose a different game.

jhkim

Quote from: Exploderwizard;568751Here's your problem. Assuming shit BEFORE you have all the data.

Ease up on the caffiene and wait until the area is described.
Seriously, if you're just walking into an ordinary shop or a tavern, do you really wait for the GM to exhaustively describe every object and person in the room?  

In my experience, groups don't actually stop play for long-winded GM description of ordinary places like a city street, tavern, shop, or inn room.  Mostly the GM just says that it's a street and we continue without details.

gleichman

Quote from: The Traveller;568752Bit of a contrarian aren't you? No matter who says what you need to have a different opinion.

Not really, it's just that an Appeal to Authority requires "legitimate expertise and expert consensus", and neither of those conditions have been proven. The Authority in this case is basically the same as mine, another gamer. Color me unimpressed (as far as an Appeal to Authority goes).

To point this out is not an attack on Justin (who I may or may not agree with on individual items), nor even his ideas. It's just a statement that his judgement is not Law. No one is bound by his opinion save those who wish to be.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

The Traveller

Quote from: gleichman;568755Not really, it's just that an Appeal to Authority requires "legitimate expertise and expert consensus", and neither of those conditions have been proven. The Authority in this case is basically the same as mine, another gamer. Color me unimpressed (as far as an Appeal to Authority goes).
I wasn't aware there was a degree course in Roleplaying Immersion, what sort of authority were you looking for exactly? In fact why even bother participating on internet forums, if nothing anyone says is to be accepted without a copperfastened sheepskin hanging on the wall?

That LV's opinions and Justin's converge to the extent that LV felt comfortable posting them in lieu is not an appeal to authority, its a timesaver. I've done similar, and I'm fairly sure most people have too.

Play the ball, not the man.
"These children are playing with dark and dangerous powers!"
"What else are you meant to do with dark and dangerous powers?"
A concise overview of GNS theory.
Quote from: that muppet vince baker on RPGsIf you care about character arcs or any, any, any lit 101 stuff, I\'d choose a different game.

crkrueger

Immersion as applied to role-playing or the point of view of the player is binary.

Why do people deny that?  Because people don't think that way.  I could consider what I'm doing from "what my character would do", I could consider what I'm doing from a narrative point of view "my character would do this, but damn it would be cool if he didn't", or mechanical point of view "my character would do this, but man I'll probably fail big" and I can do all three and more at the same time near instantaneously.  So how can immersion be binary?

Immersion is binary because if I am thinking about my character's actions as "what my character would do" instead of "what he does", or "what I do", then I am looking at it from a point of view outside my character.

"What my character would do" is not Immersion if it is merely one of the factors I am considering.  It is only full immersion if there is no considering at all.

People who do prefer immersive roleplaying know it's difficult and you hardly ever get there, which is why mechanics that force you to look at things from an OOC POV automatically break immersion, by definition.

The idea that a metagaming mechanic prevents immersion is not a preference or an opinion, it's a fact.  Every roleplaying game on earth though contains some level of metagame, the idea is to reduce it as much as possible if you are shooting for a game that immersive roleplayers can enjoy.

That's why I suggested a breakdown of RPGs into Tactical, Narrative, and Immersive for general descriptions, but sweet fucking christ on toast, you think people are going to the mattresses over the difference between roleplaying and storygaming, you should have seen the whirlwind of shit that rose from people suggesting immersion actually means what the definition is, not whatever the hell they think it means.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Exploderwizard

Quote from: jhkim;568754Seriously, if you're just walking into an ordinary shop or a tavern, do you really wait for the GM to exhaustively describe every object and person in the room?  

In my experience, groups don't actually stop play for long-winded GM description of ordinary places like a city street, tavern, shop, or inn room.  Mostly the GM just says that it's a street and we continue without details.

Its the GMs job to convey important, relevant information without droning on exhaustively.

Basic layout that can been seen, general appearance of people, and such can be described briefly. If more detail is asked for then it can be given.

For example, if you describe several people in a bar, and one of them as a "tall, bald, muscular dude" then interested players can ask for more detail such as what (if anything) his t-shirt says, if he has a beard, what he's drinking, etc. I wouldn't expect a player to sit through all of that crap about every patron, especially if they might not care about any of them.

But just saying " you see a street" isn't always enough. Hitting that fine line between not enough and TMI is an important GM skill.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

crkrueger

Quote from: Exploderwizard;568759Hitting that fine line between not enough and TMI is an important GM skill.

An especially fine-tuned art is delivering a piece of info the players may notice if they were actually there, but isn't normally included in a bare-bones description.

Otherwise it comes out to "Stock busy market district street EXCEPT FOR THIS GUY!"
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Benoist

Player: "OK I go to the nearest town."
GM: "You arrive in Revigny in about 20 minutes. Traffic is alright. Not many people on the road this early in the morning."
Player: "I search for the post office to send my parcel to the police before I go to the drop point and make the exchange."
GM: "Revigny does have a post office, but it's closed at 5 AM."
Player: "Crap. Is there a bin where you can drop packages when it's closed?"
GM: "Actually, there is. Apparently there's been some damage done to it. Some kids tried to force it, most probably. The lid is partly covered with duct tape but it looks like it's serviceable."
Player: "OK I stop, park, drop the package, get back to the car and go to the rendez-vous point."
GM: "No problem along the way. When you reach the hills about 5 km away from the town, you see..."

OK. That's how that works in an actual role playing game, IME. Your GM describes stuff. Based on what he tells you, you might make some assumptions, like "there's a post office" or whatnot. The GM corrects those assumptions if and when necessary. You are also free to ask questions about relevant information that you'd need to make a decision or pursue some course of action, like "is there a box to drop packages?" or "is the surface of the wall rough enough for me to climb it?" and so on.

That's really role playing 101 right here, AFAIC.

Bedrockbrendan

Quote from: jhkim;568754Seriously, if you're just walking into an ordinary shop or a tavern, do you really wait for the GM to exhaustively describe every object and person in the room?  

In my experience, groups don't actually stop play for long-winded GM description of ordinary places like a city street, tavern, shop, or inn room.  Mostly the GM just says that it's a street and we continue without details.

For me the problem arises when the Player is actively creating setting details. If we walk into a taver and you say, "i go to the bar and order some ale" i expect the GM to either say "okay" because those expected features are present or say "this establishment doesn't have a bar and serves only orcish wine, if you like you can get a table and order some of that"

I just find it is important for my own sense of setting for the GM to be the source (he needn't create all these details before hand, but the consistency comes from having one person who isn't a player function as the sort....for me this helps create a sense of a real setting external to myself). One of things that used to drive me nuts when playing 3E was wishlists, because these were essentially attempts by players to shape the setting. As a gm i didn't mind it, but as a player it was one of the few things that actually annoyed me.

I dont think you are doing it wrong however. This is simply what I have found works for me.

gleichman

Quote from: The Traveller;568757I wasn't aware there was a degree course in Roleplaying Immersion, what sort of authority were you looking for exactly?

None, which is sort of my point. The only thing being whacked back and forth here is in the end personal preference. And I want to see of LV and others are aware of that fact.

Quote from: The Traveller;568757In fact why even bother participating on internet forums...

I personally like seeing the posts and opinion of a handful of people, like John Morrow's for example. Beyond that, I can't think of a good reason.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

gleichman

Quote from: CRKrueger;568758That's why I suggested a breakdown of RPGs into Tactical, Narrative, and Immersive for general descriptions

That is a horrible idea.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

LordVreeg

Quote from: gleichman;568755Not really, it's just that an Appeal to Authority requires "legitimate expertise and expert consensus", and neither of those conditions have been proven. The Authority in this case is basically the same as mine, another gamer. Color me unimpressed (as far as an Appeal to Authority goes).

To point this out is not an attack on Justin (who I may or may not agree with on individual items), nor even his ideas. It's just a statement that his judgement is not Law. No one is bound by his opinion save those who wish to be.

No, there is no doubt that you succesfully found a position you can hold despite what anyone else writes or theorizes or supports, because there really is not an agreed upon RPG definition of the game.  I wouldn't call you a contrarian so much as a strategic arguer.  You earlier mentioned that I was using that fact, but it seems to me you are the one using that fact as a defence without trying to support your position, and the only one declaring a paucity in the burden of proof.  (but, hey, this is an internet thread, and no one is scoring, so you can say that no matter what, right?)

I am sorry you found quoting the source document for a very widely distributed and well-read opinion , 'lame'.  Of course, since as you mention that no such master definition exists I assume that you'd find any source not friendly to you as 'lame'.  

Now, as I said before, I do believe that the word Immersion DOES have a definition in non RPG terms.  And I think we can draw from that.  And I believe that other terms used, like Metagaming, also have agreed on definitions.  One statement you did not like comes back to mind...
Quote from: LVMetagaming is considered the opposite of roleplaying.

What is your opinion (and others, please feel free) to the expanded comment, "Metagaming is considered the opposite of Immersive roleplaying"?  I ask because after reams and pages, we seem to have gotten to a point where the major objection of a few writers is the fundamental subjectivity of experience.  A sort of, " You can argue and theorize until you are blue in the face, but don't tell me how I am feeling.   I am just as immersed as anyone else."
Currently running 1 live groups and two online group in my 30+ year old campaign setting.  
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/
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My current Collegium Arcana online game, a test for any ruleset.

jhkim

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;568767I just find it is important for my own sense of setting for the GM to be the source (he needn't create all these details before hand, but the consistency comes from having one person who isn't a player function as the sort....for me this helps create a sense of a real setting external to myself). One of things that used to drive me nuts when playing 3E was wishlists, because these were essentially attempts by players to shape the setting. As a gm i didn't mind it, but as a player it was one of the few things that actually annoyed me.

I dont think you are doing it wrong however. This is simply what I have found works for me.
Yes, GM decides works for me as well.  I think you've made an unwarranted jump from my saying "extended Q&A with the GM can hurt immersion" to the idea that I never do GM Q&A.  I'm not one of those types who calls for immersion-uber-alles, and even if I was, I don't think that there is a single method that perfectly solves everyone's obstacles to immersion.  My point is that GM Q&A is good for some things, but it also has drawbacks.  

I never used "wish lists" - but the phrasing of them sounds like it is about what players want on a metagame level.  Asking what a player wants is fundamentally different than what they would imagine or contribute.  I've played in a lot of campaigns which have had rotating GMs - as well as campaigns with only one GM where some players had designed pieces of the setting.  In all these, contributions didn't feel like "wish lists" - they were parts of the world like any other.  

Quote from: Benoist;568766Player: "OK I go to the nearest town."
GM: "You arrive in Revigny in about 20 minutes. Traffic is alright. Not many people on the road this early in the morning."
Player: "I search for the post office to send my parcel to the police before I go to the drop point and make the exchange."
GM: "Revigny does have a post office, but it's closed at 5 AM."
Player: "Crap. Is there a bin where you can drop packages when it's closed?"
GM: "Actually, there is. Apparently there's been some damage done to it. Some kids tried to force it, most probably. The lid is partly covered with duct tape but it looks like it's serviceable."
Player: "OK I stop, park, drop the package, get back to the car and go to the rendez-vous point."
GM: "No problem along the way. When you reach the hills about 5 km away from the town, you see..."

OK. That's how that works in an actual role playing game, IME. Your GM describes stuff. Based on what he tells you, you might make some assumptions, like "there's a post office" or whatnot. The GM corrects those assumptions if and when necessary. You are also free to ask questions about relevant information that you'd need to make a decision or pursue some course of action, like "is there a box to drop packages?" or "is the surface of the wall rough enough for me to climb it?" and so on.
Right.  That's what I was saying.  This is different from the idea that the player gets all data directly from the GM.  

Most of what a player sees is from their own imagination filling out the skeleton given by GM description.  The GM can issue corrections for the obviously clashing points, but there are a host of details that won't get caught this way.  The player is picturing something in his mind's eye, and what he imagines isn't the same as what the GM imagines or the other players imagine.