Ooo yeah - OpenD6 is pretty good.


BUT... I wouldn't use it for Supers... as there are better options. But in terms of overall genre-play, OpenD6 is excellent. I'd put it right up there with Savage Worlds. But between them - I'll take SW.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

Savage Worlds is pop right now still because there is no HERO 7 or GURPS 5.

Plus, Savage Worlds looks more indie. So bought.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

FATE or FAE. GURPS and SW can do it, too, I'm sure. I'm also in the "HERO is too fiddly" camp, but I imagine you could go there. The game sounds over the top, though, so something like SW might be your ticket.

You could also grab Class Warfare for Dungeon World and create classes that fit. The classes are modular, so you can shove several of them into what you want, with the spells (if you wanted to use them) serving as psychic abilities.  Beyond that, of the choices presented, have to say SW.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095432Which rpg system best handles ANY genre? GURPS and HERO used to be giants but, Savage Worlds is getting bigger and bigger. Has the new kid taken over the block or are the giants just sleeping?

If your players convinced you to run a game about spacefaring, dimension-hopping, psychic ninja-cops, which system do you think gets it done?

I like all three systems for different reasons. Hero wins when it comes to multi-genre games for me, but it is a complex system. The problem with Gurps is that you need to decide if you're using Spells (and all the mechanics that come with it) or just powers, or both. The problem I have with SW is that every game feels pulp.

As Trechiron mentioned, MM3 is also a contender for the multi-genre space. That would probably be my first choice.

Open D6 is a poor choice for multi-genre games, since you first need to decide which of the three games you're using (fantasy, adv, or space) since they have different att/skill schemas. And honestly, alot of it just sucks: ads and disads, too many rolls, magic system is incomprehensible. I haven't seen Mythic 6 so I can't comment on that.

To the core question, I personally would pick GURPS.

I think GURPS and HERO occupy similar points on the crunch spectrum, both very traditional in their approach and allowing a lot of fine precision in character build. GURPS started from a 'real world' verisimilitude baseline, whilst HERO started from a 'comic book' verisimilitude baseline however they have both built out to increase the overlap in their utility.

I found GURPS when looking for an alternative to genre specific games (originally I picked up 2e and read it but didn't get it so sold it. When 3e came out I tried again and it clicked). Because I had GURPS I never bothered with HERO; if I had found HERO first maybe my preferences would have been different. Who can say?

I see Savage Worlds as different in a couple of key ways. It isn't anywhere near as granular and that both limits your ability to mechanically tune your character and the growth that can be achieved. This was a negative from my group's perspective and though we have played a couple of short SW campaigns they were ultimately unsatisfying. If those things are less important to your group then SW is a decent game that can also fill the generic niche.

Interesting to see M&M mentioned. It used to be a bit of a darling and get loads of mentions across multiple forums. I rarely see it mentioned at all, these days. I wonder what changed?

I've read through SW, just couldn't get into it.


HERO and GURPS both work very well for a wide variety of things. 4th edition GURPS increased the flexibility, but I'd still rate HERO as the more flexible of the two. GURPS is more about choosing options which could become confusing in a genre hopping campaign. HERO is built around powers, so at least in theory it would be a little more consistent hopping from genre to genre, although ultimately it comes down to the GM and either could be used.

I think GURPS is a little more user friendly to the GM, more mix and match, where HERO is a lot of DIY for the GM. LEGO vs a lump of clay.

Both get knocked for being complex, but I think that is overblown. The core rules for both are actually pretty simple. What is complicated is all the stuff to allow the games to run just about anything. Boiled down to a single genre and specific setting, you could have a surprisingly small rule book for either game.

My personal preference is generally to HERO, but GURPS works just fine.

All 3 handle pretty much every genre, and best is subjective, but I'd personally go with GURPS. The tools to make whatever you want are in the basic set, and most other books just show you how to make certain things with the rules in the basic set.

Savage Worlds, though I'm not a personal fan of the system, does get a shoutout from me for having Lankhmar stuff. If you want to adventure in the world of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Savage Worlds has the tools for that.

Quote from: dbm;1095534I think GURPS and HERO occupy similar points on the crunch spectrum, both very traditional in their approach and allowing a lot of fine precision in character build. GURPS started from a 'real world' verisimilitude baseline, whilst HERO started from a 'comic book' verisimilitude baseline however they have both built out to increase the overlap in their utility.

I think this is a very good point. The two games started off on opposite ends of the spectrum and both have done a good job expanding from that point. As you approach their initial starting points, naturally the games become stronger because that is ultimately what their core assumptions were based around.

Quote from: Jaeger;1095474Savage Worlds has taken over the block precisely because the "big dogs" are sleeping.

For two reasons:

1- Pinnacle being so open to 3PP has made a big difference.

2- 3PP have picked it up because the system is very rules light/medium-ish and easily modded.

And I don't even like SW - but I know reality when I see it. (played it, found it's wound mechanic very annoying, and I have a bias against die-step systems.)

GURPS and HERO continue to fade because they do not hit those two points very well.

HERO is just too bloody complicated. I've played rules-as-written superhero combat, and damn its slow. Why anyone would willingly subject themselves to that mess - I do not know. HERO need an overhaul before it gains any more traction.

GURPS is too much of a toolkit to gain widespread use. SJ Games needs to release, or allow 3PP release of complete games with specific settings in the vein of the Capitan Alatrise RPG to get back on the radar of most gamers.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy was a step in the right direction. But again, where they could have simplified things in the system, they kept their bells and whistles, which I think is a mistake in what to me would be an obvious flagship release.

Seconded and pretty much how I feel.

It is also not helped that neither Hero nor Gurps try to break any new ground with rules and to try and get new or older fans who left say for Savage Worlds back in the fold. I'm not saying ignore those who do not want to see any change. Yet as time goes on and with newer editions for both it seems they are losing sales to Savage Worlds with enough gamers voting with their wallets and going with easier rules light systems. Yes SW is not complete in the core book yet because it is easier to use many will overlook that in favor of it being easier to run. Both HG and SJG seemed to think all that was needed was better production values and suddenly a whole bunch of new players would come out of the wood work. Instead many saw that beyond production values nothing really was different and both companies stubbornly want to only pander to older fans and once again voted with their wallets.

At least with Gurps SJW kept the books mostly in print for quite some time and then made most of them POD. Hero Games sat on their collective asses and when much of their print material including Book one of the core went out of print took forever to take the necessary steps to get them into POD. If like myself I like mostly print books I'm not going to purchase book one in PDF and Book two of the core in print. When it was finally done it was too little too late. At least the Gurps core while two book are a manageable size and not too intimidating for those interested in getting into Gurps. Hero Games doubled down with 6E. Already many were intimidated and not interested in reading let alone looking through something that looks and reads like a college textbook they went with two volumes of the same in 6E.

Unless both companies are willing to take a risk both financially and to lose some of their fans and release something less complex and easier to learn and in decently sized format SW will always be in first place. Many Gamers tastes have changed over the years and either both adapt to that or remain the second fiddle to SW. Unless the gaming community suffers a collective lobotomy where they are forced to like complex, crunchy rpgs again I jus don't see either getting that popular again. Still played of course popular as they were probably not if ever.

As for Mutants and Masterminds 3E I find their damage save too fiddly imo. One could shot with enough damage can take a character or major npc out too easily. I still like how Hero System handles the damage.

A big point in Savage Worlds favor is that I consider it there easiest game to GM.

Now I don't mean easiest for you to GM, I mean it requires the least GM skill to get a functional game going. It doesn't have so many rules as to be way too hard to remember, but it has enough rules that your can lean on the system to be fun by itself for something like combat.

But Savage Worlds is also not a toolkit, it's a system. This makes it more limited as a generic, but way more accessible.

Thanks for all the insightful responses, folks.

While SW covers a lot if ground and has interesting rules, I prefer GURPS 4e: less fiddly than HERO but, more options than SW.

Plus, best supplemental rpg library *ever*.

On M&M, I've been working on a "sword & sorcery" hack, since Warriors & Warlocks didn't check enough boxes. My Shadowrun hack using M&M is a WIP, as well.

Despite my stated dislike of SW, I'm actually considering giving the game a "second chance", but am awaiting the new edition due out later this summer. I already know I can't play the current edition - it's some of the stated changes they're looking to make that kind of pique my interest. It'll be interesting to see if my opinion of it changes or not when that time comes.

I was a diehard GURPS fan for decades, but for the last decade or so Savage Worlds ended up being my main system of choice, chiefly because of its ease of access and easily used sourcebooks. Plus I could use a GURPS sourcebook with SW with minimal effort.

Hero I liked, but it stilll harbors deep, old wargaming roots and my best experiences with Hero were with GMs who seemed to ignore a ton of rules in their own games. I ran it for a bit but ironically my old group were such GURPS diehards they couldn't stand Hero's specific differences.

Still, these days Cypher System has mostly taken over from all three of the above for me. It's a bit "deeper" in potential design than Savage Worlds while being very easy to run, and its genre rules thanks to the system are so simple to use that I've leaned heavily on it for most of my gaming over the last two years now. That said....I am running Cypher System on Saturdays (a SF/fantasy mashup) and Savage Worlds (a horror/supers mashup) on Wednesdays, so I'm using both systems for genres that they support well.

I still miss the good old days with GURPS, but not enough to drag it out anymore, and have only used it for about 6 campaigns or single shots over the last decade or so.

Quote from: sureshot;1095560It is also not helped that neither Hero nor Gurps try to break any new ground with rules and to try and get new or older fans who left say for Savage Worlds back in the fold. I'm not saying ignore those who do not want to see any change. Yet as time goes on and with newer editions for both it seems they are losing sales to Savage Worlds with enough gamers voting with their wallets and going with easier rules light systems. Yes SW is not complete in the core book yet because it is easier to use many will overlook that in favor of it being easier to run. Both HG and SJG seemed to think all that was needed was better production values and suddenly a whole bunch of new players would come out of the wood work. Instead many saw that beyond production values nothing really was different and both companies stubbornly want to only pander to older fans and once again voted with their wallets.

There's an alternative: make a better pitch about the advantages that your game's complexity offers and go aggressively after those that tout rules light as being principally the way to go. As I see it, more complex, simuilationist approaches have played it very defensively for many, many years and the result is that these games have been grinded between gamist approaches a la D&D and narrativist games a la PbtA. And the nonsense that both sides spread. I am not aware of any noteworthy RPG designer of more complex games going out there and taking a stand for these types of games. Where is Steve Jackson?

I mean, when I look at the internet I see plenty of hogwash repeated ad nauseam, like d100 offering no advantages over d20, without anyone else going "Hold on for a second" and challenging this. It has been far too easy denouncing more complex games in the more recent past.

That is somethign that should change.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1095574Plus, best supplemental rpg library *ever*.

I only use the GURPS library from GURPS.