Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095617There's an alternative: make a better pitch about the advantages that your game's complexity offers and go aggressively after those that tout rules light as being principally the way to go. As I see it, more complex, simuilationist approaches have played it very defensively for many, many years and the result is that these games have been grinded between gamist approaches a la D&D and narrativist games a la PbtA. And the nonsense that both sides spread. I am not aware of any noteworthy RPG designer of more complex games going out there and taking a stand for these types of games. Where is Steve Jackson?

No thank you unless either company employs and pays me for my time to do so I'm not giving any of them any free advertising. Especially not when they made the mistake of catering to and only older fans. It is not my job to do the work of SJG or HG to present and market their rpgs better. It is too much work for myself at least and easier to sell Savage Worlds as the easier alternative.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095617I mean, when I look at the internet I see plenty of hogwash repeated ad nauseam, like d100 offering no advantages over d20, without anyone else going "Hold on for a second" and challenging this. It has been far too easy denouncing more complex games in the more recent past.

That is true yet I don't take everything written on gaming forums as the absolute truth. Star Wars D6 did nothing to fix the power level of Jedi beyond essentially telling the GM to screw over the player when necessary because they could not be bothered to fix how powerful Jedi are in that version of the rpg. I tend to either read or listen to product reviews or videos of actual play of the rpg.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095617That is somethign that should change.

It should yet unless rpg companies pay people for their time to do so it is not. As I said it is for the owners of the rpg to present their IP in a better manner and not the job of the player base to do so.

HERO's failure is company driven. They doubled down on 6th, and lost more fan base than they picked up and seem to have driven the company onto the rocks of near insolvency. Too little to late to approve 3rd party offerings (an issue the original HERO Games had no issue with pursuing), and lack of interest or capital to turn out new material to sell to the fans. It was only after the company was on its last legs and basically abandoned by the shareholders / primary authors that they finally provided an all in one single genre book as a last gasp, that seems to have breathed enough life into the company to allow them to follow it with a second. HERO was doing fine under 5th ed (2002-2007, being the most productive period in the games history, 6th seems to have been the death blow.

GURPS seems to be doing fine, just looking for the more efficient / profitable way to provide product (PDF, POD, limited print, KS/pre-orders). Honestly after 33 years they are starting to run out of stuff to GURPSify. Despite claims of its impeding demise, I don't see GURPS going away. When the last GURPS players dies off, the heirs of SJG will still be raking in money on quirky card games, pocket games and the occasional revival of an out of print classic. More game companies should have their problems.  


SW does seem to have hit a sweet spot for many, and that is great. I don't really get it, but I don't have to. So long as there are enough fans to pay the bills, I don't see the need to appeal to every gamer out there.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1095681HERO was doing fine under 5th ed (2002-2007, being the most productive period in the games history, 6th seems to have been the death blow.

I started playing in a Fantasy Hero 5e campaign (with the revised 5e rules) over a year ago and I was so genuinely surprised at how good it is. I ran a lot of Champions 1e and played some others up to 4e, and I was starting to think it was just getting more complicated than it needed to be. Then I picked up 5e, started playing, and realized what a wonderfully designed system it is. What little I have seen of 6e doesn't interest me. 5e is just right. Maybe GURPS does realistic a bit more realistic, but once you get character generation out of the way, Hero 5e isn't all that much work.

Quote from: sureshot;1095677It should yet unless rpg companies pay people for their time to do so it is not. As I said it is for the owners of the rpg to present their IP in a better manner and not the job of the player base to do so.

Agreed. I don't think I ever said anything to the contrary.

Quote from: Lynn;1095692I started playing in a Fantasy Hero 5e campaign (with the revised 5e rules) over a year ago and I was so genuinely surprised at how good it is. I ran a lot of Champions 1e and played some others up to 4e, and I was starting to think it was just getting more complicated than it needed to be. Then I picked up 5e, started playing, and realized what a wonderfully designed system it is. What little I have seen of 6e doesn't interest me. 5e is just right. Maybe GURPS does realistic a bit more realistic, but once you get character generation out of the way, Hero 5e isn't all that much work.

5th looks intimidating due to its size, but a lot of that is just explanation and examples. The game isn't really changed much from 4th except to clean up and clarify a few things.

6th took off in a direction I wasn't interested in following, but I still would have bought game resources if they hadn't just cranked out retread 5th ed books I already owned with a 6th ed label slapped on the cover. The 5th ed supplements were quite good, and many did address a major complaint about HERO. The need to build everything from scratch. There were lots of books with pre-built powers, gadgets, equipment, character concepts, NPC etc that did most of the heavy work.

I think a version of HERO sold as a more standard game with pre-built powers in place of the DIY style would surprise people with how easy the game can be. Leave the tool box aspect for advanced players. Sure it is never going to be a rules light game, but closing the cover on all the whirring gears and springs lowers the anxiety level.

That is how the non-supers 3rd ed games worked, Danger International, Justice Inc and Fantasy Hero didn't have pages of rules to build stuff (Ok FH did have the spell creation section, which was kind of stripped down Champions), you just bought Bump or Direction, or Pain Tolerance etc, paid your points and moved on. You didn't try to build it. Champions was always out there as a tool kit if somebody needed a special ability not already covered.

Quote from: camazotz;1095605these days Cypher System has mostly taken over from all three of the above for me. It's a bit "deeper" in potential design than Savage Worlds while being very easy to run, and its genre rules thanks to the system are so simple to use that I've leaned heavily on it for most of my gaming over the last two years now.

Cypher has potential, and I tried the original but it just fell short of what we were looking for. It wasn't generic enough. It was more case of having many micro-classes that you mix together to create your character, and the GM was encouraged to re-mix them for a specific campaign but there was no real support for how to do that.

I'm interested in the new version which is due in September. If it has more support for how to use the system I'll check it out again.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1095681HERO's failure is company driven. They doubled down on 6th, and lost more fan base than they picked up and seem to have driven the company onto the rocks of near insolvency. Too little to late to approve 3rd party offerings (an issue the original HERO Games had no issue with pursuing), and lack of interest or capital to turn out new material to sell to the fans. It was only after the company was on its last legs and basically abandoned by the shareholders / primary authors that they finally provided an all in one single genre book as a last gasp, that seems to have breathed enough life into the company to allow them to follow it with a second. HERO was doing fine under 5th ed (2002-2007, being the most productive period in the games history, 6th seems to have been the death blow.

There were many. 6e was one of them. A couple of others:

1. Selling their chief IP, the Champions Universe, for a quick cash infusion rather than licensing it for ongoing revenues. To my knowledge, the reversion of ownership clause in the sale has not been triggered. And Champions Online has passed into new hands, so I am completely clueless as to how difficult and expensive it would be for the current company to try to invoke that clause if the originally-stated preconditions were to be met.
2. "Write what you want" policy for new product rather than "write what will sell". This brought the world Lucha Libre HERO, in English only at that. This also prevented the publication of a PRIMUS supplement for 6e, because their chosen author for the book "wasn't feeling it" and they refused to enlist anyone else for the project.

Quote from: RandyB;1095726There were many. 6e was one of them. A couple of others:

1. Selling their chief IP, the Champions Universe, for a quick cash infusion rather than licensing it for ongoing revenues. To my knowledge, the reversion of ownership clause in the sale has not been triggered. And Champions Online has passed into new hands, so I am completely clueless as to how difficult and expensive it would be for the current company to try to invoke that clause if the originally-stated preconditions were to be met.
2. "Write what you want" policy for new product rather than "write what will sell". This brought the world Lucha Libre HERO, in English only at that. This also prevented the publication of a PRIMUS supplement for 6e, because their chosen author for the book "wasn't feeling it" and they refused to enlist anyone else for the project.

   The company was also seeing a downturn before 6E was announced, to the point that they encouraged people to consider buying directly from them instead of from game stores.

One inherent problem with games that use the detail of the rules to promote immersion aka "rules heavy" games, is that many OSR games are better at simulation by virtue of players playing regular fit humans and people have an intuitive understanding of those limits.

The second problem is that rules heavy games are harder to make and require more time/effort, meanwhile the hobby doesn't really justify that effort as people  now expect D&D 5e production values or better for more complicated games.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1095705That is how the non-supers 3rd ed games worked, Danger International, Justice Inc and Fantasy Hero didn't have pages of rules to build stuff (Ok FH did have the spell creation section, which was kind of stripped down Champions), you just bought Bump or Direction, or Pain Tolerance etc, paid your points and moved on. You didn't try to build it. Champions was always out there as a tool kit if somebody needed a special ability not already covered.

Yes, true. I skipped most of that. In the game I am playing, the players (and the GM) mostly just ran with the maxima limitations, buying stuff (not having to buy weapons as powers) and ignored much of the FH packages. I think I have the 4e 'Hero System', the real split, but never actually played it.

I don't know why many Hero fans expected that HG would not re-release the same material for 6E. Every other company that releases a new edition usually does the exact same thing. So why some assumed it would be different when HG never said they would not re-release the same material again is beyond me. I could get being surprised if the person was new to the hobby. Otherwise it was a very strange assumption to make when no evidence was presented pointing to them doing the opposite.

All it really comes down too is enoughgamers not wanting that level of complexity that both HS and Gurps have. They realized both companies wanted to cater only to existing fans. With the same fans very resistant to change. One mentions new edition and they just assume it will fail. The current version is as well that is ignored. Without any real useful suggestions beyond "change nothing!". Which as we can see keeping the status quo has been doing wonders for HG. At least SJG has other products they can fall back on like Munchkin and Ogre. Even SJG choice of newer 4E books has been really odd and strange. I kind of can see why they did 4E Discworld as many people read and are still fans of the series. Doing a 4E version of Mars Attacks when their fans have been asking for a 4E version of Gurps Vehicles. Yeah I know "it is still being worked on" until I see it either available for legal PDF for downlaod or at the LGS it is vaporware to me as far as I'm concerned.

I played Savage Worlds years ago, so I don't know if this has changed, but my main problem with that game was that PCs survived only by increasing the amount of damage they can soak. There wasn't a significant way to make a character harder to hit. This rules out any sort of sci-fi or gun-heavy campaign.

For me, Champions or (modified) OD&D would be my go-to choice for a multi-genre game. Mostly because they are the games I'm most familiar with.

Quote from: estar;1095435ANY Genre? GURPS 4e although when it comes to superheroics HERO system is more straightforward than GURPS.

GURPS 4th edition fixed the issue with making powers. For example the fan made GURPS advantages
gurpsland.no-ip.org/pdf/GURPS4eAdvantages.pdf


However HERO System (5th or 6th edition) has a tad better presentation and their take has been around longer. But since GURPS handle realism way better I give the nod to GURPS.

The reality for me is that I continue to use Hero System for Superhero campaigns and GURPS for my Majestic Wilderlands.

Savage Worlds is fine, but it has a different and lighter take on mechanics. Like using Runequest 6/Mythras for Fantasy Roleplaying versus D&D 5e. Both got options both are good but Mythras has a more detailed take on the topic.

I think the one people need to keep an eye on is the AGE system. For me that hits the lighter generic sweet spot. They have Dragon Age, Fantasy Age, Blue Rose, Modern Age, and the Expanse out already. The only problem is that they are not as open to 3PP as Pinnacle is which will hurt it in the long run.

Agreed 100%

Another advantage of AGE over GURPS/Hero you have all the game in one book, you don't need to add/remove stuff to play genre X (of the ones they have published). Still the GURPS world books are such a great wealth of info, even if their take on precolombine cultures is a bit too on the noble savage for my taste. (Haven't found one that doesn't have the exact same defect)

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1095766I played Savage Worlds years ago, so I don't know if this has changed, but my main problem with that game was that PCs survived only by increasing the amount of damage they can soak. There wasn't a significant way to make a character harder to hit. This rules out any sort of sci-fi or gun-heavy campaign.

Cover was always in the game?

Quote from: sureshot;1095560As for Mutants and Masterminds 3E I find their damage save too fiddly imo. One could shot with enough damage can take a character or major npc out too easily. I still like how Hero System handles the damage.

We had similar issues with the damage, but fixed it with a pretty simple house rule;

PCs and other main characters have 50 hit points, are staggered at 20 hp and incapacitated at 0. Minions have 10 hp and are incapacitated at 0. Recoveries restore 10 hp. When damage is inflicted the attacker rolls 1d20+ranks for damage. The defender subtracts the appropriate save modifier (not a roll, just the modifer) from the damage and the rest from their hit points.

Ex. Electroshock launches a lightning bolt (12 ranks) at Titanic (Toughness 15). Electroshock rolls a 14 and adds his 12 ranks for a total of 26 damage. Titanic subtracts his toughness and subtracts the remaining 11 from his hit points. Titanic is a Hulk-like regeneration style tank (instead of impervious toughness) so he gets a recovery as a free action on his turn and removes 10 of the 11 points of damage.

"It tickles," Titanic quips as he brushes off the point of impact and then leaps at Electroshock.

* * * *

The other thing I prefer about M&M3e (and the previous editions for that matter) compared to the HERO System is that it makes a clear distinction between Complications (stuff like secret identities, hunted and dependent NPCs) and actual physical limitations (vulnerabilities, physical transformation, etc.) in that only the latter actually got you more build points while the former were opportunities to gain Hero Points in game.

In other words, you couldn't get extra build points just by giving yourself a bunch of role-playing hooks the GM actually has to manage and remember to include lest your flaws not actually be flaws. If the current adventure really doesn't have any situation where a complication comes up, it just doesn't come up; the GM doesn't have to throw in something involving your DNPC back home (or keep track that it needs to come up ASAP when appropriate) just because the once/session 8- roll happened to pop (not to mention the occasional flaw pile-ups I saw in large groups where multiple hunted/secret identity/dnpc popped all at once in some Champions games I was involved in).