My concern doesn't lie with 1D&D,  it what will come after it; will 6E or 2D&D just be a straight up video game that greatly limits player and DM options? Will the program do all your dice rolls and math for you? Will there even be a need for an actual DM to be present, or will there just be community made and official WOTC made prepackaged adventures? Will it be riddled with loot boxes and micro transactions (okay, I'm it not psychic but I already know the answer to this one: YES). Will this destroy third party content and creators?

Maybe the sky is falling, maybe I just got hit on the head with an acorn. I guess only time will tell.

I see the homebrew/original content issue as being what will probably make or break the OneD&D VTT. You have to remember that at the end of the day, the people who most determine what games get played are DMs. DMs do most of the reading of RPG books, they do most of the finding of new games to play, and they're the only player that is necessary for a game to go forward. A lot of DMs are already less than satisfied with the limitations that VTT playing places on their imaginations and creativity, and the OneD&D VTT seems like it will end up being even more restrictive.

Hasbro has been pretty successful so far encouraging the 5e generation to lean on pre-written modules, but not being able to homebrew takes away a lot of the appeal of DMing, and if DMs don't want to run games on the new system, that's going to hurt the platform considerably.

If they're going to do away with the DM's ability to homebrew, they'll probably need to do away with the need for DMs entirely. That is theoretically possible, but then you really are looking at something more akin to a videogame than to a TRPG. The problem I see them running into there is that if they dispose of the elements that make RPGs distinct from videogames, they're entering a market in which they can't compete. I don't see WOTC successfully making a rival to something like Final Fantasy 14 or Fortnite. You could argue that they've already tried and failed, back when Dungeons & Dragons online died along with all the other also-rans of the WoW-era MMO boom.

I also think it's worth pointing out that while online play has largely taken over the RPG space, VTT gaming hasn't necessarily done so. If you look around at the popular "actual play" series online, a lot of them are using voice chat and possibly an online dice roller, but are not using the full virtual tabletop.  The impression I get is that is also the case in much of the wider online play world. Even the people who have embraced online play haven't all embraced the virtual minis aspect of it.

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on October 12, 2022, 11:10:14 AM
My concern doesn't lie with 1D&D,  it what will come after it; will 6E or 2D&D just be a straight up video game that greatly limits player and DM options? Will the program do all your dice rolls and math for you? Will there even be a need for an actual DM to be present, or will there just be community made and official WOTC made prepackaged adventures? Will it be riddled with loot boxes and micro transactions (okay, I'm it not psychic but I already know the answer to this one: YES). Will this destroy third party content and creators?

Maybe the sky is falling, maybe I just got hit on the head with an acorn. I guess only time will tell.

So... you sound like a good person to ask this: Does it matter? Do you suffer from FOMO if you're not playing the latest edition of D&D? This scenario you posit above is curious to me...

Let's pretend they go FULL Tactical Video Game mode. So what? Do you feel forced to play that to enjoy D&D? Are there not other editions and means of enjoying D&D. Even games that are not specifically D&D but are in everything but name (OSR). Not to mention the bazillions of other TTRPGS out there?

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 11:14:12 AM
I see the homebrew/original content issue as being what will probably make or break the OneD&D VTT. You have to remember that at the end of the day, the people who most determine what games get played are DMs. DMs do most of the reading of RPG books, they do most of the finding of new games to play, and they're the only player that is necessary for a game to go forward. A lot of DMs are already less than satisfied with the limitations that VTT playing places on their imaginations and creativity, and the OneD&D VTT seems like it will end up being even more restrictive.

That's right. They're trying to be like Apple and create a "D&D Ecosystem" where DM's will invest in all their virtual tchotchkes, and be reluctant to stray out of that ecosystem. And I'm going to put a spin on the "lot of DM's not being satisfied with VTT's". I think WotC doesn't *care* about those DM's... and you prove my point below...

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 11:14:12 AMHasbro has been pretty successful so far encouraging the 5e generation to lean on pre-written modules, but not being able to homebrew takes away a lot of the appeal of DMing, and if DMs don't want to run games on the new system, that's going to hurt the platform considerably.

Welcome to my world. MOST DM's do not homebrew. Most DM's in 5e run only modules. If a DM leaves OneD&D's new ecosystem, if they play their cards right, this new version of D&D will groom players to engage in what is going to be basically a big X-Com game that requires very little if any actual DMing experience. I think they believe they'll capture players and groom them into believing *this* is what RPG's are about.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 11:14:12 AMIf they're going to do away with the DM's ability to homebrew, they'll probably need to do away with the need for DMs entirely. That is theoretically possible, but then you really are looking at something more akin to a videogame than to a TRPG. The problem I see them running into there is that if they dispose of the elements that make RPGs distinct from videogames, they're entering a market in which they can't compete. I don't see WOTC successfully making a rival to something like Final Fantasy 14 or Fortnite. You could argue that they've already tried and failed, back when Dungeons & Dragons online died along with all the other also-rans of the WoW-era MMO boom.

... and there you go. No DM's. Or at least nothing *I* would consider a DM. They might have a player make some executive decisions like setting up parameters (assuming this system is well designed, which I don't believe it will be, who knows?). This is precisely why I think those DM's that *want* that TTRPG experience will move on to other actual TTRPG's, or they will drop out of the hobby altogether (which is normal for people not getting their itch scratched). But I suspect it will be a net-gain for non-D&D games.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 11:14:12 AMI also think it's worth pointing out that while online play has largely taken over the RPG space, VTT gaming hasn't necessarily done so. If you look around at the popular "actual play" series online, a lot of them are using voice chat and possibly an online dice roller, but are not using the full virtual tabletop.  The impression I get is that is also the case in much of the wider online play world. Even the people who have embraced online play haven't all embraced the virtual minis aspect of it.

It's a risky move for sure.

Yeah, and freeform chats are the most common form of online RP. It's easier to get into RPing if you don't need to read huge rulebooks. It's also not something that you can monetize.

Also, there are now AI DMs that can dynamically describe games on the fly with minimal immersion breaks. You don't need a real DM anymore.

They'll have options.  They'll have dials.  They'll have things you can set or not set. 

The users will still be limited to whatever those options are.  It's not quite the Model T, where Ford famously said that you can have any color you want as long as it is black.  Now think about the options you have on a particular make and model of a car now.  Or heck, don't limit it to model or even make.  There's a lot of choices, but you still pick from the laundry list, and that's that.  Yeah, in some cases you can do cosmetic differences with tinted windows or racing stripes.  Even the stuff you can do there is more limited now.  Heard a guy not to long ago bemoaning that it was getting harder and harder to do custom stereo systems in a car because more and more of the smart car stuff is run through the speakers.  It's doable, but not something an enthusiast can merely swap in a day or two with a manual and a little know how. 

Which means for the option to exist in their universe it has to meet all these criteria:  They must approve it.  They must prioritize it.  They must be capable of doing it.  They must find a way to do it that doesn't break something that they approve and prioritize more.  And yep, there will be a ton of people happy with that, because they were never going to diverge too much from the game in the book either.  Heck, there are people at ENWorld and other forums that would freak out at certain house rule suggestions because then you'd be "making it harder for your players to play at their game."  That crowd craves "standards" to the extent of psychotic neurosis. 

So yeah, tenbones is correct.  If there is any bright spot to all of this, it will be that real table-top RPGs will attract fugitives from behind that curtain, options and all.

Quote from: tenbones on October 12, 2022, 11:54:14 AM
They're trying to be like Apple and create a "D&D Ecosystem" where DM's will invest in all their virtual tchotchkes, and be reluctant to stray out of that ecosystem. And I'm going to put a spin on the "lot of DM's not being satisfied with VTT's". I think WotC doesn't *care* about those DM's... and you prove my point below...

I agree that's the goal. I think I'm just more skeptical of how successful it's going to be.

Quote from: tenbones on October 12, 2022, 11:54:14 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 11:14:12 AMHasbro has been pretty successful so far encouraging the 5e generation to lean on pre-written modules, but not being able to homebrew takes away a lot of the appeal of DMing, and if DMs don't want to run games on the new system, that's going to hurt the platform considerably.

Welcome to my world. MOST DM's do not homebrew. Most DM's in 5e run only modules. If a DM leaves OneD&D's new ecosystem, if they play their cards right, this new version of D&D will groom players to engage in what is going to be basically a big X-Com game that requires very little if any actual DMing experience. I think they believe they'll capture players and groom them into believing *this* is what RPG's are about.

I wonder if there's good statistics on that, because my experience is the opposite. I had never played in or a run a published module until very recently, and none of the players I grew up around ever used them (for context, I started playing around the year 2000, and most of the players I know in real life fit comfortably into the "nu-school" category (many, but not all, of them still play 5e)). What I've seen on the internet indicates that while 5e modules have a higher presence than 3rd or 4th edition ones did, they're still a minority amongst the actually running campaigns out there.

Out of curiosity, I went and flipped through the LFG listings for 5e on Roll20, and I ballpark it at around 1/3 of them advertising a WOTC-published module, but obviously that's nowhere near a conclusive test. Some of them appear to be the same game advertised several times, but some of them might also be running a module I've never heard of.

There are a few problems with published modules that WOTC is never going to overcome. One is that very few people are going to want to play them more than once. But the bigger issue is that the chief appeal of DM-ing, even to the nu-schoolers (in fact perhaps more so), is the opportunity it grants for unfettered creativity. You just don't get that with published material.

It seems like DMs mostly run modules when 1) they're new to DM-ing, 2) they don't have the time or inclination to do the work themselves, or 3) they're being paid. Those are all fine (except possibly the latter), but the lifeblood of the hobby is passionate DMs that create campaigns out of a love for doing so. Those are the people that keep the game in circulation year after year. They organize the most games, they introduce the most new people to the hobby, and they buy the most books. Even with the culture changes that 5e has brought to the game, I still think that if D&D loses those people, it's going to be disastrous for the game's long-term prospects.

Something I don't see people discussing much about this new VTT is that it runs counter not just to the attitudes of the Old-School of RPG players, but to the Nu-School as well. If you look at design trends in the last few years, all the nu-school darlings (such as PBTA/Forged-in-the-Dark, Cypher System, Etc) are moving in the direction of more abstracted rules. Even chunkier games like the 2d20 system and Savage Worlds have been trending towards abstracting things like time and distance measurement encumbrance, ammunition, etc.

As far as I understand the Nu-School gaming ethos, they like a more meta, more story-focused gaming style. They like to fudge dice or ignore them entirely. They do scripted "cutscenes". They-pre-plan story beats, and let the players make changes to the campaign setting mid-game. The highly automated, rules-as-written, tactical miniatures style of play which this VTT seems to be leaning heavily towards isn't going to be any more conducive to what they want than it is conducive to the more randomized, simulationist playstyle that the OSR likes.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 02:00:08 PM
Something I don't see people discussing much about this new VTT is that it runs counter not just to the attitudes of the Old-School of RPG players, but to the Nu-School as well. If you look at design trends in the last few years, all the nu-school darlings (such as PBTA/Forged-in-the-Dark, Cypher System, Etc) are moving in the direction of more abstracted rules. Even chunkier games like the 2d20 system and Savage Worlds have been trending towards abstracting things like time and distance measurement encumbrance, ammunition, etc.

As far as I understand the Nu-School gaming ethos, they like a more meta, more story-focused gaming style. They like to fudge dice or ignore them entirely. They do scripted "cutscenes". They-pre-plan story beats, and let the players make changes to the campaign setting mid-game. The highly automated, rules-as-written, tactical miniatures style of play which this VTT seems to be leaning heavily towards isn't going to be any more conducive to what they want than it is conducive to the more randomized, simulationist playstyle that the OSR likes.

RPGs are divided into a lot more than two schools. For example, 1980s Champions and Ars Magica are very different than 1970s D&D.

If you're talking about PBTA and Forged-in-the-Dark, I don't think your description is accurate. I've played a lot of PBTA along with its predecessors, though only a little Forged-in-the-Dark. These games are more meta-game and story focused. However, in my experience, the gamers are hugely against any dice fudging or prescripted scenes and story beats. They are all about improvising based on whatever the dice tell them. Improvisation and collaboration are core to the experience, and the systems are designed so that the results can be interpreted in dramatic ways.

Prescripted scenes are more a feature of the 1990s era cinematic RPGs. They have their roots in Dragonlance and Shadowrun, and developed more in games like Torg and Deadlands. The story games approach is heavily opposed to this, because prescripting takes away player agency.


EDITED TO ADD: And yes, this approach really isn't very compatible with computerized enhancements - though there are some features that could help it in VTT. I played my first Forged-in-the-Dark game ("Wicked Ones") online as my group had split apart during the pandemic. We did have some aids like putting tags/descriptors down on the map, but that's very different than animated widgets or 3d play space.

I suspect in a decade D&D won't be synonymous with TTRPG anymore. It'll be more like MMOs.

That could leave existing TTRPG forgotten with only those already in the know really aware of them without D&D or it could be a reset to days like the early 80s when the hobby was less well known.

Quote from: jhkim on October 12, 2022, 02:14:24 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 02:00:08 PM
Something I don't see people discussing much about this new VTT is that it runs counter not just to the attitudes of the Old-School of RPG players, but to the Nu-School as well. If you look at design trends in the last few years, all the nu-school darlings (such as PBTA/Forged-in-the-Dark, Cypher System, Etc) are moving in the direction of more abstracted rules. Even chunkier games like the 2d20 system and Savage Worlds have been trending towards abstracting things like time and distance measurement encumbrance, ammunition, etc.

As far as I understand the Nu-School gaming ethos, they like a more meta, more story-focused gaming style. They like to fudge dice or ignore them entirely. They do scripted "cutscenes". They-pre-plan story beats, and let the players make changes to the campaign setting mid-game. The highly automated, rules-as-written, tactical miniatures style of play which this VTT seems to be leaning heavily towards isn't going to be any more conducive to what they want than it is conducive to the more randomized, simulationist playstyle that the OSR likes.

RPGs are divided into a lot more than two schools. For example, 1980s Champions and Ars Magica are very different than 1970s D&D.

If you're talking about PBTA and Forged-in-the-Dark, I don't think your description is accurate. I've played a lot of PBTA along with its predecessors, though only a little Forged-in-the-Dark. These games are more meta-game and story focused. However, in my experience, the gamers are hugely against any dice fudging or prescripted scenes and story beats. They are all about improvising based on whatever the dice tell them. Improvisation and collaboration are core to the experience, and the systems are designed so that the results can be interpreted in dramatic ways.

Prescripted scenes are more a feature of the 1990s era cinematic RPGs. They have their roots in Dragonlance and Shadowrun, and developed more in games like Torg and Deadlands. The story games approach is heavily opposed to this, because prescripting takes away player agency.


EDITED TO ADD: And yes, this approach really isn't very compatible with computerized enhancements - though there are some features that could help it in VTT. I played my first Forged-in-the-Dark game ("Wicked Ones") online as my group had split apart during the pandemic. We did have some aids like putting tags/descriptors down on the map, but that's very different than animated widgets or 3d play space.

I'm fully willing to agree that the "OSR vs. Nu-School" dichotomy is flawed; I just use it here because it's easy shorthand, and because its a dichotomy that a lot of grognards believe in whole-heartedly. For the record, I do think there are some broad cultural trends that divide gamers who got into the hobby before and after the rise of internet gaming, but yeah, there's a lot of variety within both groups.

The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't just assume the Zoomers are going to unquestioningly embrace the OneD&D VTT. Even within the broad "culture-of-play" that the newer hobbyists tend to have, there's are desires that this system doesn't look like it's going to serve.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 01:47:11 PM
I wonder if there's good statistics on that, because my experience is the opposite. I had never played in or a run a published module until very recently, and none of the players I grew up around ever used them (for context, I started playing around the year 2000, and most of the players I know in real life fit comfortably into the "nu-school" category (many, but not all, of them still play 5e)). What I've seen on the internet indicates that while 5e modules have a higher presence than 3rd or 4th edition ones did, they're still a minority amongst the actually running campaigns out there.

I have met precisely two GM (outside of the Living game communities) in my nearly 40 years of playing who used published modules and one was a single mother mostly interested in gaming for the sake of social interaction and the other had converted the whole thing into another game system and was essentially playtesting their conversion mechanics (and has since moved on to running a homebrewed campaign in an established fictional universe were everything needs to be converted into the system to be usable).

Everyone else I've ever played with homebrewed their adventures and sometimes their own worlds (I'd guess a roughly 50/50 split on established world or homebrew... D&D is more often homebrew than those running more focused settings like Battletech or Star Wars/Trek or Rifts or World of Darkness). I'm even more extreme in that I tend to design bespoke systems for pretty much everything I run.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 12, 2022, 02:26:55 PM
I suspect in a decade D&D won't be synonymous with TTRPG anymore. It'll be more like MMOs.

That could leave existing TTRPG forgotten with only those already in the know really aware of them without D&D or it could be a reset to days like the early 80s when the hobby was less well known.

That might not actually be a bad thing.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 01:47:11 PM

I agree that's the goal. I think I'm just more skeptical of how successful it's going to be.

I'm hopeful it fails massively OR it succeeds massively. What I, personally, don't want is for it to be middling and cause further distraction by implementing something that muddies the water further.

I want it to fail massively in the sense that WotC is crushed out of existence due to overeach and bad decision-making (which I know will likely never happen). But at least, like the 4e issue, it will be a very hard lesson learned that hopefully will make them go "back to formula" where a good game has the increasingly smaller chance that D&D might be "great" again. And my criteria of "great" is killing some sacred cows, streamlining, more modularity. Removal of ALL political motivated changes since 1e (yes I'll go that far back just to make sure we stamp out the fire.)

Inversely, if it succeeds MASSIVELY, then it will draw new people that effectively will be playing and engaging in another hobby than the one I'm in. I have ZERO contact with Wargamers, I have ZERO contact with Boardgaming concerns at my table. If 1D&D becomes that odd super-success story, it will effectively dilute the D&D player syndrome I currently deal with in the hobby where everyone only knows the current 5e form of D&D with all its political references and assumptions. It will make my life as a GM that runs other games much easier. Likewise anyone wanting to play actual TTRPG's will already be divorced from modern D&D and be actively looking for an alternative experience. I will happily take those folks on.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 01:47:11 PM
I wonder if there's good statistics on that, because my experience is the opposite. I had never played in or a run a published module until very recently, and none of the players I grew up around ever used them (for context, I started playing around the year 2000, and most of the players I know in real life fit comfortably into the "nu-school" category (many, but not all, of them still play 5e)). What I've seen on the internet indicates that while 5e modules have a higher presence than 3rd or 4th edition ones did, they're still a minority amongst the actually running campaigns out there.

I suppose you could be right. My experience is most of the locals here - and TTRPG's in Dallas is *very* active. My local FLGS is *immense* (Madness Comics - it's a former Walmart turned into a Temple of Nerdery. It's like a convention there everyday, at least pre-Covid) and it's a sea of people running all the 5e campaigns modules. Homebrewing is a staple for a certain breed of GM that wants to game a bit deeper. While D&D has always had that cache of being the first big game on the scene... 5e has not been good at curating GMing to go offroading. I don't have numbers, but I'm willing to bet the majority of games are very casual, and I don't see a lot of games advertising actual Homebrew settings around here very much. There are definitely groups running modules aplenty.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 01:47:11 PMOut of curiosity, I went and flipped through the LFG listings for 5e on Roll20, and I ballpark it at around 1/3 of them advertising a WOTC-published module, but obviously that's nowhere near a conclusive test. Some of them appear to be the same game advertised several times, but some of them might also be running a module I've never heard of.

There are a few problems with published modules that WOTC is never going to overcome. One is that very few people are going to want to play them more than once. But the bigger issue is that the chief appeal of DM-ing, even to the nu-schoolers (in fact perhaps more so), is the opportunity it grants for unfettered creativity. You just don't get that with published material.

It seems like DMs mostly run modules when 1) they're new to DM-ing, 2) they don't have the time or inclination to do the work themselves, or 3) they're being paid. Those are all fine (except possibly the latter), but the lifeblood of the hobby is passionate DMs that create campaigns out of a love for doing so. Those are the people that keep the game in circulation year after year. They organize the most games, they introduce the most new people to the hobby, and they buy the most books. Even with the culture changes that 5e has brought to the game, I still think that if D&D loses those people, it's going to be disastrous for the game's long-term prospects.

This is what I'm counting on. I *want* GM's that Homebrew to break away from the D&D experience. I want them to make their homebrew settings on other systems. I want the TTRPG field to have maximal fertility and it *demands* GM's that want to run their own games and design their own content. We're the rarest of the breed and I see 1D&D as an opportunity. I look at it as the Alien Invasion is going to conclude and the Aliens are off to go play their own new games elsewhere. We, who represent the rest of TTRPG's that want better gaming can continue on and if we do it right create something better together. Or you know... keep slapboxing about our favorite gaming systems. At least, hopefully we won't have to deal with post-modern politics as part of some strain of the hobby. That beast will have moved on.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 02:33:53 PM
The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't just assume the Zoomers are going to unquestioningly embrace the OneD&D VTT. Even within the broad "culture-of-play" that the newer hobbyists tend to have, there's are desires that this system doesn't look like it's going to serve.

I agree with this. Sorry if I came across as nitpicking.

I suspect what Hasbro is hoping for is more cross-sell, where gamers of different cultures of play all are nominally playing D&D - which maximizes their network effect. They'd like to support story gamers playing D&D in-person with a lot of improvisation and collaboration, plus tactical gamers playing D&D in-person with battle mats and miniatures, plus computer-tactical gamers playing D&D online with 3d maps and animated miniatures, plus casual social gamers playing D&D online as a social network.

There have been a lot of D&D computer games for decades like Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate. But there was a big divide between the computer games and the tabletop game, which made cross-sell difficult and limited the network effect.

Quote from: jhkim on October 12, 2022, 02:44:38 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 12, 2022, 02:33:53 PM
The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't just assume the Zoomers are going to unquestioningly embrace the OneD&D VTT. Even within the broad "culture-of-play" that the newer hobbyists tend to have, there's are desires that this system doesn't look like it's going to serve.

I agree with this. Sorry if I came across as nitpicking.

No Worries. I probably was conflating two different gaming scenes there.