I've been running a D&D game with gold for xp (5e adapted to use OSR rules), and there are some pain points that have come up.
1) In a game like this, how do you handle having characters who don't want to accept gold or treasure (because they're a cleric or took a vow of poverty or something)? Normally you would get experience and can let others take the treasure, but in a game like this you have to break character to take the gold to level up or fall behind.
2) The amount of gold you throw down is immersion breaking -- the economy of the area doesn't disintegrate?
Personally I am fine with both of these as part of the game but it's come up for some players and I am wondering how you deal with these.
Is there a way to model the same type of gameplay that gold for xp produces (open ended exploration, pushing deeper into the dungeon, etc.) without needing actually gold? What if you gave XP for specific things like finding new rooms? Is there something like that people do?
1. Clerics, monks, and other characters that as part of roleplaying don't keep "worldly goods" get XP for taking the gold and donating it somewhere or funding their church to do good works or similar.
2. The default pile of gold and gold for XP assumes a "gold rush" economy. So prices are vastly inflated, at least in areas that adventurers frequent. Normal people probably sell to each other at more reasonable rates, though perhaps the kind of equipment that adventurers want (swords, nice armor, flasks of oil, etc.) is hard for them to get. (People would rather fleece adventurers on that stuff.) Of course, there are some assumptions in that about the ratio of adventurers to normal people, and those will vary in some campaigns.
If this really bothers you, the easiest way out is cut everything in the adventurers equation by 10. Specifically, give XP for silver and assume a silver economy. Or, cut the XP needed to 1/10th and be stingy with the gold. Though if you are going to go to that trouble, then perhaps you may want to take the next obvious steps. Economy busted and adventurers level too fast? Gold economy, stingy, and cut XP needed to 1/5th. Or pull similar tricks with silver.
Easiest thing is to look at the numbers and what you want, and then reverse-engineer from there.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:26:25 PM2) The amount of gold you throw down is immersion breaking -- the economy of the area doesn't disintegrate?
Give out XP for the full GP value of all magic items they find. This will radically cut down on the actual cash rewards needed and characters with a vow of poverty might still be able to take these items thus helping with problem #1.
1) The character can 'donate' the money to a worthy cause...Even a character with a vow of poverty understands the value of money for charity...He uses it to start an orphanage or something similar.
2) All WOTC-era D&D has fucked up economics immersion...not much you can do there. Maybe give the gold XP for what they spend/lose/donate and use some home-brew carousing rules.
http://2orcswalkintoabar.blogspot.com/2015/08/steal-this-my-skull-mountain-carousing.html
I use these for 5E..I just modifed the XP amounts since the author created it for DCC.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 01, 2020, 04:41:25 PM
1. Clerics, monks, and other characters that as part of roleplaying don't keep "worldly goods" get XP for taking the gold and donating it somewhere or funding their church to do good works or similar.
2. The default pile of gold and gold for XP assumes a "gold rush" economy. So prices are vastly inflated, at least in areas that adventurers frequent. Normal people probably sell to each other at more reasonable rates, though perhaps the kind of equipment that adventurers want (swords, nice armor, flasks of oil, etc.) is hard for them to get. (People would rather fleece adventurers on that stuff.) Of course, there are some assumptions in that about the ratio of adventurers to normal people, and those will vary in some campaigns.
If this really bothers you, the easiest way out is cut everything in the adventurers equation by 10. Specifically, give XP for silver and assume a silver economy. Or, cut the XP needed to 1/10th and be stingy with the gold. Though if you are going to go to that trouble, then perhaps you may want to take the next obvious steps. Economy busted and adventurers level too fast? Gold economy, stingy, and cut XP needed to 1/5th. Or pull similar tricks with silver.
Easiest thing is to look at the numbers and what you want, and then reverse-engineer from there.
Regarding donation...
What if they want the give the gold to another party member instead? That's the thing. They'd have to take it and then donate it... no help for the party member.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:56:09 PM
What if they want the give the gold to another party member instead? That's the thing. They'd have to take it and then donate it... no help for the party member.
Well, yeah! If you want to put a veneer on what is happening, don't get bogged down in the letter, look at the spirit of the thing. It's all made up mechanics for what works and what doesn't, right. So a cleric with a vow of poverty gets a share of the gold but only gets XP for it if he does something "worthy" with it. Buying his fellow party member an inn is probably not. Helping an NPC innkeeper rebuild his inn that got burned down in the attack which launched the adventure where the cleric got the gold, probably is.
Frankly, if the player was trying to play games with this kind of mechanic, I'd warn them first then start docking them a chunk of the XP when they pushed it. If the "donations" to the church all end up in the bishop's personal pocket, that only goes so far. (Depending on the church of course. If the cleric is part of some "chaotic greedy" outfit, maybe that is what he should do with it.)
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 01, 2020, 05:04:56 PM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:56:09 PM
What if they want the give the gold to another party member instead? That's the thing. They'd have to take it and then donate it... no help for the party member.
Well, yeah! If you want to put a veneer on what is happening, don't get bogged down in the letter, look at the spirit of the thing. It's all made up mechanics for what works and what doesn't, right. So a cleric with a vow of poverty gets a share of the gold but only gets XP for it if he does something "worthy" with it. Buying his fellow party member an inn is probably not. Helping an NPC innkeeper rebuild his inn that got burned down in the attack which launched the adventure where the cleric got the gold, probably is.
Frankly, if the player was trying to play games with this kind of mechanic, I'd warn them first then start docking them a chunk of the XP when they pushed it. If the "donations" to the church all end up in the bishop's personal pocket, that only goes so far. (Depending on the church of course. If the cleric is part of some "chaotic greedy" outfit, maybe that is what he should do with it.)
It's more that they want to do something in-character, in-game (spend their gold to buy a player some armor or something) but need to take it for themselves instead to get XP.
Oh, I should mention -- this is XP for SPENDING gold on carousing/donation type stuff, not just getting xp for gold period or spending it on any old thing. Maybe that's the issue, but I like that it creates decisions.
In GURPS, I hand out 1 pt a session for good RP, 2 for great RP, 1 for materially participating in advancing the plotline, 1 for good combat decisions and tactics, 2 pts for excellent combat decisions, and award 1 for really clever ideas. I take away 1-2 points for poor RP, 1-2 points for material setbacks in the plot due to player screwups, and 1 if the player is just sitting like a lump. (I also give out 1 to the person who makes me laugh hardest in any given session.) These awards are fairly typical, and most folks get 2-3 per session.
This system can pretty much be ported into any game system that uses XP, D&D included. Just figure out how much XP is a "good" session's worth, and divide that into RP/combat/clever percentages based on your preferences. No need for "challenge ratings," balancing, worrying about whether finding that chest of gold will give too much XP, or situations like the OP states.
Another issue:
It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.
1) The whole point of being an adventurer is to acquire treasure, so they should go do something else with their time, such as joining a monastery.
2) Presumably the PCs are dealing with other aristocrats who are already filthy rich, not peasants. The DMG (1e) assumes that PCs are the younger children of aristocrats who stand to gain nothing in terms of land and power, which is why they are adventurers. They are adventuring to acquire gold in order to achieve parity with their aristocratic brethren.
If you had a bucket load of cash, you wouldn't go shopping at K-mart in the ghetto in south central Los Angeles, you'd go to Beverly Hills where the rich people are.
If the PCs start giving loads of gold, which can be converted into weapons, to peasants, then that will be seen as sedition by the local lords who will likely bring in their army to find out what's going on. PCs fomenting rebellion will not be dealt with lightly.
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on October 01, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
1) The whole point of being an adventurer is to acquire treasure, so they should go do something else with their time, such as joining a monastery.
2) Presumably the PCs are dealing with other aristocrats who are already filthy rich, not peasants. The DMG (1e) assumes that PCs are the younger children of aristocrats who stand to gain nothing in terms of land and power, which is why they are adventurers. They are adventuring to acquire gold in order to achieve parity with their aristocratic brethren.
If you had a bucket load of cash, you wouldn't go shopping at K-mart in the ghetto in south central Los Angeles, you'd go to Beverly Hills where the rich people are.
If the PCs start giving loads of gold, which can be converted into weapons, to peasants, then that will be seen as sedition by the local lords who will likely bring in their army to find out what's going on. PCs fomenting rebellion will not be dealt with lightly.
Huh, I never heard that about being children of aristocrats...
But that is a good point :re nobles. I was having them just show up to a dirt poor gold rush town and sell stuff to the locals.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Another issue:
It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.
That's called failure.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PMIt's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.
I dunno: I game to have a good time. What you describe above before the last bit sounds like a pretty good time to me, and not any way, shape or form a "failure." If I was hellbent on nothing more than Game High Score, I'd play a console or a pinball game instead ... less fuss, no need to shave or clean up the apartment, don't need to cook for my guests.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:26:25 PM
1) In a game like this, how do you handle having characters who don't want to accept gold or treasure (because they're a cleric or took a vow of poverty or something)?
Members of the church are poor, the church is not. They hold onto wealth only long enough to pass it to the church - as it passes through their hands it leaves behind a greasy residue of XP.
Quote2) The amount of gold you throw down is immersion breaking -- the economy of the area doesn't disintegrate?
Then change it.
http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/money-results.html
Back in the Brown Box D&D days there was no requirement to do anything with the gold that the party "found." So it didn't matter what the PCs spent (or didn't spend) their gold on. The default assumption was that many adventurers were saving a lot of that gold for the day when they became a Lord (9th level fighter), Wizard (11th level MU), or High Priest (I think that was an 8th or 9th level Cleric). Once the thieves and assassins were added they were saving to start (or take over) a guild for their profession.
Since you like them squandering their loot, I'd just treat the cleric or monk as "squandering" loot that is given to the temple/monastery authorities or otherwise spent honoring their god by building shrines, statues, etc. The key is the cleric or monk should only be getting as much benefit from their gold expended to level up as the gambling, wine, friends, and song that uses up the fighters' gold.
Gold for xp isn't a talisman. It's done to boost a style of play
Players wanting to play anti-money characters, people concerned about economic realism, and saying "but there was a session without treasure that was fun - no xp?" Are all indications that this isn't really a pair of jeans that fits this particular table. There's nothing wrong with that. But why force it?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Another issue:
It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.
This one of the many reasons I don't give XP for gold, but give it for achievements and player/character contributions (good RP, good ideas, good laughs, planning, etc.) in game instead. That way you
always get XP for meaningful game play, even if no combat takes place and no treasure is found.
Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2020, 07:11:45 PM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Another issue:
It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.
This one of the many reasons I don't give XP for gold, but give it for achievements and player/character contributions (good RP, good ideas, good laughs, planning, etc.) in game instead. That way you always get XP for meaningful game play, even if no combat takes place and no treasure is found.
Do you not do XP for gold based games? Or big exploration style dungeons?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 02, 2020, 07:12:57 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2020, 07:11:45 PM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Another issue:
It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.
This one of the many reasons I don't give XP for gold, but give it for achievements and player/character contributions (good RP, good ideas, good laughs, planning, etc.) in game instead. That way you always get XP for meaningful game play, even if no combat takes place and no treasure is found.
Do you not do XP for gold based games? Or big exploration style dungeons?
XP for gold was a thing in the first group I played with when I started out in the hobby, but I never liked it as a concept and the first adventure I ever played the DM had me find an entire dragon' hoard at the end, left unattended for no apparent reason (there were only goblins in the cave), which gave me enough XP to take my character from level 1 to level 14.
I didn't know about having to train or spend gold to get XP back then, and not everyone used those rules. Plus the adventure was mostly an excuse to get my character to level 14 quickly so I could join my DM's regular group, where everyone was like level 15+. But it put me off XP for gold completely. It just didn't feel earned and the concept seemed silly and immersion breaking to me, so I never used XP for gold when I finally got my own books and became DM (except maybe the first few sessions, till I finally found my balls and said "NO XP for gold in my campaigns! This is stupid!").
I focused on XP for kills and class-related stuff instead (class XP was a thing in 2e, which was what I first ran), then eventually added XP for achievements (mission or personal objectives, overcoming challenges, etc.), good RP, planning, etc. when I found the idea in certain supplements and other games. Play style was a combination of dungeon crawls, "save the village", rescue missions or whatever came our way.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 02, 2020, 07:12:57 PMDo you not do XP for gold based games? Or big exploration style dungeons?
I wouldn't say that gold = XP is a concept I ditched quite so fast as alignment (
that was about 15 minutes in, back in 1978), but it sure was right on the heels. I give XP for good RP. I give it for good combat decisions and tactics. I give it for materially contributing to the success of the mission. I give it for players turning in extra-credit projects.
These are all within the players' ability to do/achieve, if they can. Loot, by contrast, is
solely what I decide as a GM. The players have
no decision and
no influence as to whether that cask of coin has a hundred silver sinvers or a thousand gold sovereigns. Giving XP for a gold amount has zero relation to the skill of their play: that $ is simply what I feel like handing out. So honestly, I don't think that "gold"-based games make any more sense than "purple"-based games, and I might as readily just award XP based on the square inches of purple clothing each player wears to the session.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 02, 2020, 12:19:02 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:26:25 PM
1) In a game like this, how do you handle having characters who don't want to accept gold or treasure (because they're a cleric or took a vow of poverty or something)?
Members of the church are poor, the church is not. They hold onto wealth only long enough to pass it to the church - as it passes through their hands it leaves behind a greasy residue of XP.
Heh - made me think of Father Ted - "the money was only resting in my account" (might be a Brits only reference, not sure it crossed the pond)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 02, 2020, 12:19:02 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:26:25 PM
Quote2) The amount of gold you throw down is immersion breaking -- the economy of the area doesn't disintegrate?
Then change it.
http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/money-results.html
ISTR a mention in 1e AD&D about goods pricings being boom town / goldrush prices. A town near a dungeon or other adventuring site gets expensive.
More broadly, I am regularly surprised at how often people seem to think they have to play the rules and only the rules as written, logic be damned.
1) Characters get XP from acquiring gold. Not keeping it. It's party treasure, and the gold and XP are split as evenly as possible. If a character doesn't want their share of gold, they still keep their share of XP. Simple.
2) Use the economics of the fantastic Adventurer, Conqueror, King system (ACKS), which actually accounts for how obscenely wealthy characters spend gold and has an economy that can handle the ludicrous piles of GP you can dump into it.
Actually, doing as you're doing is what lead to me eventually just exclusively running ACKS. It just works so much better than 5e for what I want out of a game.
In regards to doing lots of cool stuff but not leveling up: GP for XP is inherently goal-directed. It assumes that you risk danger for gold (by dungeoncrawling) and that superior play is derived from reducing your risk to acquire said gold (by being sneaky and clever, for instance).
You may find that these assumptions don't make for the kind of game you and your group enjoys; this is perfectly fine. It's not a style that sits perfectly for everyone (my group eventually got sick of having tons of radical sessions like you're describing pass without getting any XP, for example). If you find this to be the case, I'd again point you to ACKS, which does a wonderful job of giving more powerful characters (ie: those who are too good to dungeoncrawl anymore, the pantywaists) alternative ways of generating revenue that are fantastically in-character for the classes.
For example, wizards can conduct magical research, build wizard's towers, even stock their OWN dungeons to attract exotic monsters (to harvest for spell components!). They get the gold and XP they need to continue advancing in power WHILE deepening and redefining the setting. Highly, highly recommended.
Quote from: Azraele on October 03, 2020, 08:00:26 PM
1) Characters get XP from acquiring gold. Not keeping it. It's party treasure, and the gold and XP are split as evenly as possible. If a character doesn't want their share of gold, they still keep their share of XP. Simple.
2) Use the economics of the fantastic Adventurer, Conqueror, King system (ACKS), which actually accounts for how obscenely wealthy characters spend gold and has an economy that can handle the ludicrous piles of GP you can dump into it.
Actually, doing as you're doing is what lead to me eventually just exclusively running ACKS. It just works so much better than 5e for what I want out of a game.
In regards to doing lots of cool stuff but not leveling up: GP for XP is inherently goal-directed. It assumes that you risk danger for gold (by dungeoncrawling) and that superior play is derived from reducing your risk to acquire said gold (by being sneaky and clever, for instance).
You may find that these assumptions don't make for the kind of game you and your group enjoys; this is perfectly fine. It's not a style that sits perfectly for everyone (my group eventually got sick of having tons of radical sessions like you're describing pass without getting any XP, for example). If you find this to be the case, I'd again point you to ACKS, which does a wonderful job of giving more powerful characters (ie: those who are too good to dungeoncrawl anymore, the pantywaists) alternative ways of generating revenue that are fantastically in-character for the classes.
For example, wizards can conduct magical research, build wizard's towers, even stock their OWN dungeons to attract exotic monsters (to harvest for spell components!). They get the gold and XP they need to continue advancing in power WHILE deepening and redefining the setting. Highly, highly recommended.
Ohhh, that does sound amazing. What does the wizard do to get gold/xp in this case? Is it from spending money on building his own dungeon or research?
Quote from: Marchand on October 03, 2020, 03:18:22 AM
Heh - made me think of Father Ted - "the money was only resting in my account" (might be a Brits only reference, not sure it crossed the pond)
"FECK!"
QuoteMore broadly, I am regularly surprised at how often people seem to think they have to play the rules and only the rules as written, logic be damned.
Running AD&D1e cures you of this. The rules are so long and scattered across the books and self-contradictory that it's not actually possible to play RAW. Over the years I've many people tell me they ran it RAW. The simple response is: "Alright, explain to me the surprise and initiative rules." Here's a compilation of the rules (https://idiscepolidellamanticora.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/addict.pdf) - which is an incomplete summary. It's 20 pages. Footnoted.
Nobody plays AD&D1e RAW, it's too much of a fucking mess. But it's a
glorious mess, and its messiness teaches you as a DM to make your own way in the world. You have to improvise.
Yeah that's a big difference in mindset with old players compared to new school ones. Especially with how the modern approach for a lot of table problems is to use rules to deal with them (stuff like X-cards, or telling a problem player no).
QuoteOhhh, that does sound amazing. What does the wizard do to get gold/xp in this case? Is it from spending money on building his own dungeon or research?
They get XP for building their wizard tower and for magical research (including making magic items and casting the most powerful magic, which is ritualized and very expensive). Technically they don't get XP for building dungeons, but they *do* get XP for harvesting the monsters inside for magical components. They can also get XP from weird stuff like arbitrage trading and levying taxes on serfs that farm the land they protect with their strongholds.
So if you hang up your pointy hat in regards to dungeon-diving around tenth level or so, there's still a long retirement into wizard-king-ness awaiting you, with consistent slow power growth. This also doubles as a nice way to keep magic items significant, as they become something of an arms race between rival wizards and help to drive late-game play (at least that's how things shook out in my last fantasy campaign).
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 03, 2020, 09:53:17 PM
Yeah that's a big difference in mindset with old players compared to new school ones. Especially with how the modern approach for a lot of table problems is to use rules to deal with them (stuff like X-cards, or telling a problem player no).
Matt Finch's
Quick Primer for Old School Gaming (https://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-1qm8y7m.html).
You can
change correct that mindset.