I've been running a D&D game with gold for xp (5e adapted to use OSR rules), and there are some pain points that have come up.

1) In a game like this, how do you handle having characters who don't want to accept gold or treasure (because they're a cleric or took a vow of poverty or something)? Normally you would get experience and can let others take the treasure, but in a game like this you have to break character to take the gold to level up or fall behind.

2) The amount of gold you throw down is immersion breaking -- the economy of the area doesn't disintegrate?

Personally I am fine with both of these as part of the game but it's come up for some players and I am wondering how you deal with these.

Is there a way to model the same type of gameplay that gold for xp produces (open ended exploration, pushing deeper into the dungeon, etc.) without needing actually gold? What if you gave XP for specific things like finding new rooms? Is there something like that people do?

1. Clerics, monks, and other characters that as part of roleplaying don't keep "worldly goods" get XP for taking the gold and donating it somewhere or funding their church to do good works or similar. 

2. The default pile of gold and gold for XP assumes a "gold rush" economy.  So prices are vastly inflated, at least in areas that adventurers frequent.  Normal people probably sell to each other at more reasonable rates, though perhaps the kind of equipment that adventurers want (swords, nice armor, flasks of oil, etc.) is hard for them to get.  (People would rather fleece adventurers on that stuff.)  Of course, there are some assumptions in that about the ratio of adventurers to normal people, and those will vary in some campaigns.

If this really bothers you, the easiest way out is cut everything in the adventurers equation by 10. Specifically, give XP for silver and assume a silver economy.  Or, cut the XP needed to 1/10th and be stingy with the gold.  Though if you are going to go to that trouble, then perhaps you may want to take the next obvious steps.  Economy busted and adventurers level too fast?  Gold economy, stingy, and cut XP needed to 1/5th. Or pull similar tricks with silver. 

Easiest thing is to look at the numbers and what you want, and then reverse-engineer from there.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:26:25 PM2) The amount of gold you throw down is immersion breaking -- the economy of the area doesn't disintegrate?

Give out XP for the full GP value of all magic items they find. This will radically cut down on the actual cash rewards needed and characters with a vow of poverty might still be able to take these items thus helping with problem #1. 

1)  The character can 'donate' the money to a worthy cause...Even a character with a vow of poverty understands the value of money for charity...He uses it to start an orphanage or something similar.

2)  All WOTC-era D&D has fucked up economics immersion...not much you can do there.  Maybe give the gold XP for what they spend/lose/donate and use some home-brew carousing rules.

http://2orcswalkintoabar.blogspot.com/2015/08/steal-this-my-skull-mountain-carousing.html

I use these for 5E..I just modifed the XP amounts since the author created it for DCC.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 01, 2020, 04:41:25 PM
1. Clerics, monks, and other characters that as part of roleplaying don't keep "worldly goods" get XP for taking the gold and donating it somewhere or funding their church to do good works or similar. 

2. The default pile of gold and gold for XP assumes a "gold rush" economy.  So prices are vastly inflated, at least in areas that adventurers frequent.  Normal people probably sell to each other at more reasonable rates, though perhaps the kind of equipment that adventurers want (swords, nice armor, flasks of oil, etc.) is hard for them to get.  (People would rather fleece adventurers on that stuff.)  Of course, there are some assumptions in that about the ratio of adventurers to normal people, and those will vary in some campaigns.

If this really bothers you, the easiest way out is cut everything in the adventurers equation by 10. Specifically, give XP for silver and assume a silver economy.  Or, cut the XP needed to 1/10th and be stingy with the gold.  Though if you are going to go to that trouble, then perhaps you may want to take the next obvious steps.  Economy busted and adventurers level too fast?  Gold economy, stingy, and cut XP needed to 1/5th. Or pull similar tricks with silver. 

Easiest thing is to look at the numbers and what you want, and then reverse-engineer from there.

Regarding donation...

What if they want the give the gold to another party member instead? That's the thing. They'd have to take it and then donate it... no help for the party member.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:56:09 PM
What if they want the give the gold to another party member instead? That's the thing. They'd have to take it and then donate it... no help for the party member.

Well, yeah!  If you want to put a veneer on what is happening, don't get bogged down in the letter, look at the spirit of the thing.  It's all made up mechanics for what works and what doesn't, right.  So a cleric with a vow of poverty gets a share of the gold but only gets XP for it if he does something "worthy" with it.  Buying his fellow party member an inn is probably not.  Helping an NPC innkeeper rebuild his inn that got burned down in the attack which launched the adventure where the cleric got the gold, probably is.

Frankly, if the player was trying to play games with this kind of mechanic, I'd warn them first then start docking them a chunk of the XP when they pushed it.  If the "donations" to the church all end up in the bishop's personal pocket, that only goes so far.  (Depending on the church of course.  If the cleric is part of some "chaotic greedy" outfit, maybe that is what he should do with it.)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 01, 2020, 05:04:56 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:56:09 PM
What if they want the give the gold to another party member instead? That's the thing. They'd have to take it and then donate it... no help for the party member.

Well, yeah!  If you want to put a veneer on what is happening, don't get bogged down in the letter, look at the spirit of the thing.  It's all made up mechanics for what works and what doesn't, right.  So a cleric with a vow of poverty gets a share of the gold but only gets XP for it if he does something "worthy" with it.  Buying his fellow party member an inn is probably not.  Helping an NPC innkeeper rebuild his inn that got burned down in the attack which launched the adventure where the cleric got the gold, probably is.

Frankly, if the player was trying to play games with this kind of mechanic, I'd warn them first then start docking them a chunk of the XP when they pushed it.  If the "donations" to the church all end up in the bishop's personal pocket, that only goes so far.  (Depending on the church of course.  If the cleric is part of some "chaotic greedy" outfit, maybe that is what he should do with it.)

It's more that they want to do something in-character, in-game (spend their gold to buy a player some armor or something) but need to take it for themselves instead to get XP.

Oh, I should mention -- this is XP for SPENDING gold on carousing/donation type stuff, not just getting xp for gold period or spending it on any old thing. Maybe that's the issue, but I like that it creates decisions.

In GURPS, I hand out 1 pt a session for good RP, 2 for great RP, 1 for materially participating in advancing the plotline, 1 for good combat decisions and tactics, 2 pts for excellent combat decisions, and award 1 for really clever ideas. I take away 1-2 points for poor RP, 1-2 points for material setbacks in the plot due to player screwups, and 1 if the player is just sitting like a lump.  (I also give out 1 to the person who makes me laugh hardest in any given session.) These awards are fairly typical, and most folks get 2-3 per session.

This system can pretty much be ported into any game system that uses XP, D&D included.  Just figure out how much XP is a "good" session's worth, and divide that into RP/combat/clever percentages based on your preferences.  No need for "challenge ratings," balancing, worrying about whether finding that chest of gold will give too much XP, or situations like the OP states.

Another issue:

It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.

1) The whole point of being an adventurer is to acquire treasure, so they should go do something else with their time, such as joining a monastery.


2) Presumably the PCs are dealing with other aristocrats who are already filthy rich, not peasants. The DMG (1e) assumes that PCs are the younger children of aristocrats who stand to gain nothing in terms of land and power, which is why they are adventurers. They are adventuring to acquire gold in order to achieve parity with their aristocratic brethren.

If you had a bucket load of cash, you wouldn't go shopping at K-mart in the ghetto in south central Los Angeles, you'd go to Beverly Hills where the rich people are.

If the PCs start giving loads of gold, which can be converted into weapons, to peasants, then that will be seen as sedition by the local lords who will likely bring in their army to find out what's going on. PCs fomenting rebellion will not be dealt with lightly.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on October 01, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
1) The whole point of being an adventurer is to acquire treasure, so they should go do something else with their time, such as joining a monastery.


2) Presumably the PCs are dealing with other aristocrats who are already filthy rich, not peasants. The DMG (1e) assumes that PCs are the younger children of aristocrats who stand to gain nothing in terms of land and power, which is why they are adventurers. They are adventuring to acquire gold in order to achieve parity with their aristocratic brethren.

If you had a bucket load of cash, you wouldn't go shopping at K-mart in the ghetto in south central Los Angeles, you'd go to Beverly Hills where the rich people are.

If the PCs start giving loads of gold, which can be converted into weapons, to peasants, then that will be seen as sedition by the local lords who will likely bring in their army to find out what's going on. PCs fomenting rebellion will not be dealt with lightly.

Huh, I never heard that about being children of aristocrats...

But that is a good point :re nobles. I was having them just show up to a dirt poor gold rush town and sell stuff to the locals.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Another issue:

It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.

That's called failure.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PMIt's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.

I dunno: I game to have a good time.  What you describe above before the last bit sounds like a pretty good time to me, and not any way, shape or form a "failure."  If I was hellbent on nothing more than Game High Score, I'd play a console or a pinball game instead ... less fuss, no need to shave or clean up the apartment, don't need to cook for my guests.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:26:25 PM
1) In a game like this, how do you handle having characters who don't want to accept gold or treasure (because they're a cleric or took a vow of poverty or something)?

Members of the church are poor, the church is not. They hold onto wealth only long enough to pass it to the church - as it passes through their hands it leaves behind a greasy residue of XP.

Quote2) The amount of gold you throw down is immersion breaking -- the economy of the area doesn't disintegrate?

Then change it.

http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/money-results.html

Back in the Brown Box D&D days there was no requirement to do anything with the gold that the party "found." So it didn't matter what the PCs spent (or didn't spend) their gold on. The default assumption was that many adventurers were saving a lot of that gold for the day when they became a Lord (9th level fighter), Wizard (11th level MU), or High Priest (I think that was an 8th or 9th level Cleric). Once the thieves and assassins were added they were saving to start (or take over) a guild for their profession.

Since you like them squandering their loot, I'd just treat the cleric or monk as "squandering" loot that is given to the temple/monastery authorities or otherwise spent honoring their god by building shrines, statues, etc. The key is the cleric or monk should only be getting as much benefit from their gold expended to level up as the gambling, wine, friends, and song that uses up the fighters' gold.