Finally got Dwimmermount

Phillip · September 07, 2014, 07:51:16 PM

Quote from: Larsdangly;785189I agree that mystery is important to large dungeons and other adventures of extended exploration. I just find it tiresome to have over-long and overly detailed expositions on the answer to the mystery. I'ld rather the mystery just be cooked into the room descriptions and let the DM sort out whether there is a knowable back story and what it is. Sometimes the best explanation for something is '?!?'.

For example, the basic structure of Dwimmermount has certain things in common with B4 (Lost City). This is an exciting adventure with a slow 'reveal' of a mysterious cult-like community, but doesn't require tens of pages of back story.

There can also be the problem of mysteries becoming anything but, due to talk about the text. One can of course change things, but it's nice to minimize wasted text. I'm reluctant, though, to second-guess the judgment of the developers. I would say that I never found it a significant problem with the "reveals" in old Judges Guild and TSR scenarios, so I would not expect it to be one for me with Dwimmermount.

Justin Alexander · September 08, 2014, 05:08:15 AM

Quote from: The Butcher;785410Speaking strictly for myself, I'd rather have a backstory I can tweak, or ignore and replace, than nothing. But I don't mind cryptic open mysteries every now and then, especially for one-off games.

To be clear: I don't need an explanation for every mysterious or weird element of your scenario. (I actually like my game worlds to have elements of the fantastical that don't have any real explanation.)

But if you're presenting me with a coherent mystery that has an intended solution: As a GM, you need to just tell me what it is. I buy scenarios to run them, not read them as light fiction.

Quote from: VengerSatanis;785601I'm also reminded of Masks of Nyarlathotep which only had a few pages of backstory upfront, the rest was doled out scene by scene and encounter by encounter.

Weird example. Masks of Nyarlathotep features an opening introduction which is almost the exact same percentage of the total text as Dwimmermount's introductory material (not including hex key entries) and explicitly lays out a complete summary of background events and the explicit structure of the campaign.

VengerSatanis · September 09, 2014, 11:41:43 PM

Quote from: Justin Alexander;785791Weird example. Masks of Nyarlathotep features an opening introduction which is almost the exact same percentage of the total text as Dwimmermount's introductory material (not including hex key entries) and explicitly lays out a complete summary of background events and the explicit structure of the campaign.

If you look at Larsdangly's post at the top of page 2 in this thread, he states that the introductory backstory totals 100 pages (preferring the authors had reduced it to 1). I don't have Masks of Nyarlathotep handy but it can't be any more than 6 or 7 pages before the 1st scene begins with the player characters.

Without being able to see Dwimmermount myself, I don't know if that 100 page opening introduction is accurate. If it's much, much smaller, then you could be right about the Masks percentage...

VS

Larsdangly · September 10, 2014, 08:53:03 AM

My ball park total included material defining how races and classes work in the setting, several of which are 'tweaked' from standard D&D

VengerSatanis · September 10, 2014, 12:15:08 PM

Quote from: Larsdangly;786152My ball park total included material defining how races and classes work in the setting, several of which are 'tweaked' from standard D&D

Ok, then how many pages for just the backstory of what's going on with Dwimmermount?

VS

Opaopajr · September 10, 2014, 03:11:39 PM

Over the years I've learned "Guess What I'm Thinking" is a horrible game and sours relationships (especially observing romantic couples once the bloom is off).

And while the past is prologue, I've also learned people have little patience with windy exposition during the "Getting to Know You" phase.

Cheat sheets, people, cheat sheets. Take out a page or two for quick summaries, be it combat flowchart, adventure summary, relation map + faction agenda, etc. Processing mid-game (or low prep emergency) is the time when you want to fall back on the quick and easy crib notes — that's why cheat sheets were invented.

VengerSatanis · September 10, 2014, 03:36:01 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr;786212Over the years I've learned "Guess What I'm Thinking" is a horrible game and sours relationships (especially observing romantic couples once the bloom is off).

And while the past is prologue, I've also learned people have little patience with windy exposition during the "Getting to Know You" phase.

Cheat sheets, people, cheat sheets. Take out a page or two for quick summaries, be it combat flowchart, adventure summary, relation map + faction agenda, etc. Processing mid-game (or low prep emergency) is the time when you want to fall back on the quick and easy crib notes — that's why cheat sheets were invented.

+1 for cheat sheets!

VS

Justin Alexander · September 11, 2014, 05:18:31 AM

Quote from: VengerSatanis;786108If you look at Larsdangly's post at the top of page 2 in this thread, he states that the introductory backstory totals 100 pages (preferring the authors had reduced it to 1).

Ah, right. I'd missed him just flat-out lying about the contents of the first 100 pages there. He's apparently including the hexcrawl around the dungeon, the key for the city that the adventurers will be primarily based out of, and, bizarrely, over 40+ pages of material describing the actual dungeon as "background material".

My count of 40 pages starts from pg. 10 (the first page of actual text after the table of contents) and ends on pg. 50. That includes the History of Dwimmermount, the backgrounds of the various races, additional classes for Labyrinth Lord, starting knowledge / rumor tables, and initial adventure seeds.

QuoteI don't have Masks of Nyarlathotep handy but it can't be any more than 6 or 7 pages before the 1st scene begins with the player characters.

18-22 pages depending on which version you're looking at and how you count.

Larsdangly · September 11, 2014, 11:13:57 AM

Quote from: Justin Alexander;786359Ah, right. I'd missed him just flat-out lying about the contents of the first 100 pages there. He's apparently including the hexcrawl around the dungeon, the key for the city that the adventurers will be primarily based out of, and, bizarrely, over 40+ pages of material describing the actual dungeon as "background material".

My count of 40 pages starts from pg. 10 (the first page of actual text after the table of contents) and ends on pg. 50. That includes the History of Dwimmermount, the backgrounds of the various races, additional classes for Labyrinth Lord, starting knowledge / rumor tables, and initial adventure seeds.

18-22 pages depending on which version you're looking at and how you count.

Thanks for calling out my ballpark approximation as a lie. Asshole.

danbuter · September 11, 2014, 11:35:48 AM

Quote from: Larsdangly;786396Thanks for calling out my ballpark approximation as a lie. Asshole.

You're the asshole for making shit up and passing it off as the truth. But then again, you're not the first person to do so on this forum.

Gronan of Simmerya · September 11, 2014, 11:49:39 AM

Quote from: amacris;785036Well, much of the lower levels of the dungeon only make sense within the framework of Telluria. All of Level 6B is built around the true nature of the dwarves. All of Levels 8 and 0 are built around the true nature of the gods. And so on.

It's a megadungeon campaign setting more than a run-this-in-any-setting dungeon.

Oh, too bad. I mean, for me that is. I hope lots of other people buy it and like it.

Phillip · September 11, 2014, 12:29:58 PM

Since it's D&D we're talking about, I think it's reasonable to assume that getting players to any place, from Barsoom to Wonderland, is not too difficult.

The only difficulty is people who insist on confining the game to a particular very limited world. That's an arbitrary self-exile to a market that may or may not be as big a niche as they would hope, and in any case can hardly be expected to dictate terms to a project undertaken to suit a gamer's personal interests more than to go after their money.

Exploderwizard · September 11, 2014, 12:32:26 PM

Quote from: Old Geezer;786409Oh, too bad. I mean, for me that is. I hope lots of other people buy it and like it.

I have yet to see a product that I could not alter to suit my purposes.

Gronan of Simmerya · September 11, 2014, 01:10:51 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard;786420I have yet to see a product that I could not alter to suit my purposes.

True, but at what point is it more work than just starting with a blank piece of graph paper?

Rather like 'do we put in yet one more code patch or just rewrite this pig?'

Phillip · September 11, 2014, 01:36:09 PM

With a scenario, you're buying ideas. Are they worth it? That's a question each ref can answer only for himself. Quite a few are happiest with just paper and pencil, and perhaps a trip to the library for inspiration.