I was one of the Kickstarters for Dwimmermount. I finally have the hardback, map book, and image book in hand. I like them a lot. It was a very long, turbulent process, but the final product is actually quite good. I can easily run a campaign for years with this book.
Parts of the dungeon are fairly standard, which is a good thing. But it also has a lot of pseudo-science/technomagic bits which work quite well.
The background is cool, and there are different groups of monsters in the dungeon, and their relationships are mapped. Some work together, others hate each other. If the players are smart, they could easily gain allies to help them.
The art if very old school in style. The book is big, and looks like it will take a lot of punishment.
Overall, I'm glad it is finally here. The final product looks to be very usable, and well thought out. Congrats to everyone involved in finally getting this setting into print!
I have shipping notifications for my stuff. I hope it gets here soon! :)
Does it bear obvious scars of its troubled production?
Quote from: danbuter;784660I was one of the Kickstarters for Dwimmermount. I finally have the hardback, map book, and image book in hand. I like them a lot. It was a very long, turbulent process, but the final product is actually quite good. I can easily run a campaign for years with this book.
Parts of the dungeon are fairly standard, which is a good thing. But it also has a lot of pseudo-science/technomagic bits which work quite well.
The background is cool, and there are different groups of monsters in the dungeon, and their relationships are mapped. Some work together, others hate each other. If the players are smart, they could easily gain allies to help them.
The art if very old school in style. The book is big, and looks like it will take a lot of punishment.
Overall, I'm glad it is finally here. The final product looks to be very usable, and well thought out. Congrats to everyone involved in finally getting this setting into print!
Cool, good deal. I personally cant grapple with the idea of playing the same dungeon for years. But that's just me. :)
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;784802Does it bear obvious scars of its troubled production?
The only troubled production was no one worked on it for 2 years. The manuscript was written by the end of 2012.
It just sat there for basically 2 years until Autarch picked it up early this year and polished it. But probably 90% of the text is the same, if not more. What they really did was turning it into a PDF and then book, at probably no profit for them. They cced the invoice from Lightning source, basically the hardcover+illo and map books cost $35 and change, and you got that for a $40 pledge.
I've been going over the final PDF comparing it to the final draft, and the differences really aren't much.
For instance, this is probably the biggest change I noticed:
QuoteLevel 1, Room 41 (Original)
This large chamber is the lair of the demonic spider known only as the Spawn of Arach-Nacha. The Spawn establish the dwarf Guran (Room 40) as the ruler of the kobolds by intimating that it knew a means to transform inert dwarves into living ones. The Spawn knows no such thing and has been using both Guran and the kobolds to extend the reach of its master into Dwimmermount
The creature possess little treasure of its own (two gems: malachite and zircon, worth 10 gp and 100 gp respectively) but secreted in its lair is a weird metal disc that can be used to summon the elevator in Room 56.
QuoteFinal
This large chamber is the lair of the demonic spider known only as the Spawn of Arach-Nacha. The Spawn tricked the dwarf Guran into pledging himself to its demonic master in exchange for the power to transform inert dwarves into kobolds. The Spawn now uses Guran and the kobolds to extend the reach of its master into Dwimmermount.
(... text about the Spawn offering PCs powers to further its own goals)
The Spawn possesses little treasure of its own (two gems, malachite and zircon, worth 10 gp and 100 gp respectively), but secreted in its lair is a weird metal disc with a cross-and-circle symbol on it that can be used to operate the Elevator (Room 56)
Quote from: JeremyR;784860The only troubled production was no one worked on it for 2 years. The manuscript was written by the end of 2012.
It just sat there for basically 2 years until Autarch picked it up early this year and polished it. But probably 90% of the text is the same, if not more.
That is an EXCEPTIONALLY inaccurate statement.
James' 2012 draft was 127,530 words. Autarch's final 2014 draft stands at 231,799 words. Tavis and I added 104,269 words. 45% of the ENTIRE text is completely new. That doesn't include editing of existing text.
James' dungeon chapters (8-20) were 81,677 words long. Autarch's were 118,343 words long. We added 36,666 words in those chapters, or 30%.
James' draft of Chapter 1-7 and Appendices stood at 45,853 words, with much of that simply being extracts from the LL Advanced Edition Compendium. Autarch's were 113,456 words long. We added 67,603 words, more than doubling the size, and more than tripling the original copy.
In addition, a large percentage of the original text had to be re-written due to inconsistencies in the text from one chapter to another. Simply documenting these inconsistencies was itself a process that took several months.
Finally, we made several aesthetic decisions about the dungeon, such that the explanation for how the antagonist came to be captured, the NPCs present in the City of the Ancients and the Prison, the backstory, and more, were all changed.
All of these drafts were made available to backers as they were written and the above facts can be easily verified.
QuoteI've been going over the final PDF comparing it to the final draft, and the differences really aren't much.
Please see above. I suspect you are not actually looking at James' original draft but probably looking at one that Tavis or I had already re-written. Either that or you are missing what we added by starting with what James wrote and looking up that text in our draft, and thus not even seeing the sections we wrote that don't exist in his draft.
QuoteWhat they really did was turning it into a PDF and then book, at probably no profit for them. They cced the invoice from Lightning source, basically the hardcover+illo and map books cost $35 and change, and you got that for a $40 pledge.
This part IS correct. At present it looks like I will have to add about $2,000 of my funds into the project to carry it to completion. That's fine. We're grown ups. We'll take our lumps and move on with our next products.
I think you could reasonably claim it would have been a better business decision to release the 130,000 word 2012 draft. (We didn't do that because we didn't think it met our standards. It's more important to me that Autarch products be excellent.)
I think you could reasonably claim we were unwise to add so much text to the book, because that pushed the printing cost so high that we couldn't turn a profit. (See above).
No one could reasonably claim that we did basically nothing or wrote less than 10%.
Regards,
Alexander Macris
Autarch LLC
amacris, are PDF/POD copies of Dwimmermount going to be available to non-backers to buy?
Quote from: Warthur;784986amacris, are PDF/POD copies of Dwimmermount going to be available to non-backers to buy?
I have seen the pdfs available at Drive Thru already.
Quote from: Warthur;784986amacris, are PDF/POD copies of Dwimmermount going to be available to non-backers to buy?
The PDF of the Labyrinth Lord version is available now at DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/133746/Dwimmermount-Labyrinth-Lord-version). Richard shared a layout proof of the ACKS version yesterday that looks great, so its PDF will be available soon as well too.
Both versions will be available as POD when their hardcovers are in stores through distribution, so you'll have a variety of options for getting the books in print.
I'm hoping that we can get some of the more known OSR folks on the web to give Dwimmermount some full reviews. Unfortunately, this might be hindered by the large page count. Also, some might be waiting for the ACKS version to be published. I'd like to hear some feedback (positive and negative) on this from someone not as invested as a backer, which I am (but won't be getting my books until the ACKS version arrives in the mail).
When the product has fully shipped I think it would also be useful if the Autarchs could make a short 'Lessons Learned' document/presentation so that others (creators, backers, etc.) could learn from this experience. Do this in a way that minimizes a flame war breaking out. I think many points have been brought up before, but they're scattered across the internet. Hopefully, the Autarchs will be able to find some time to do this amongst everything else going on.
A full review by someone who has spent some time playing this would be great. I just picked up the pdf and am enjoying it. If I'ld been involved in this project I suspect I would have boiled the first 100 pages down to 1. I'm not really that interested in the creator's house rules for dwarves and clerics and so forth; this stuff is all so group-specific that it doesn't translate well. Even the background material about the setting, history of the dungeon, etc. is all likely to be flipped through quickly by people other than the creator and his group. But I love the maps and location write ups and the overall structure of the dungeon; it seems like a really great gaming environment.
out of curiosity, how's JMal doing these days? amacris/tavis, have you guys had much contact with him recently, with the project at late stages? anyone else? i hope he's well, and am glad to see dwimmermount make it out the door, though i'll never play it myself.
Quote from: Larsdangly;785027A full review by someone who has spent some time playing this would be great. I just picked up the pdf and am enjoying it. If I'ld been involved in this project I suspect I would have boiled the first 100 pages down to 1. I'm not really that interested in the creator's house rules for dwarves and clerics and so forth; this stuff is all so group-specific that it doesn't translate well. Even the background material about the setting, history of the dungeon, etc. is all likely to be flipped through quickly by people other than the creator and his group. But I love the maps and location write ups and the overall structure of the dungeon; it seems like a really great gaming environment.
Well, much of the lower levels of the dungeon only make sense within the framework of Telluria. All of Level 6B is built around the true nature of the dwarves. All of Levels 8 and 0 are built around the true nature of the gods. And so on.
It's a megadungeon campaign setting more than a run-this-in-any-setting dungeon.
Quote from: stuffis;785031out of curiosity, how's JMal doing these days? amacris/tavis, have you guys had much contact with him recently, with the project at late stages? anyone else? i hope he's well, and am glad to see dwimmermount make it out the door, though i'll never play it myself.
He and I have not spoken in over 18 months.
Quote from: amacris;785036Well, much of the lower levels of the dungeon only make sense within the framework of Telluria. All of Level 6B is built around the true nature of the dwarves. All of Levels 8 and 0 are built around the true nature of the gods. And so on.
It's a megadungeon campaign setting more than a run-this-in-any-setting dungeon.
That may be true but I would say, if so, it is an unfortunate characteristic of the dungeon, and one that is out of step with some of its audience. The OSR crowd is relatively into molding their own settings. A dungeon that is only playable with a certain view of religion, races, classes, etc. is a pretty small tent.
Quote from: amacris;785039He and I have not spoken in over 18 months.
Damn.
I feel so conflicted over this whole fiasco; I learned so much from his blog.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;785055Damn.
I feel so conflicted over this whole fiasco; I learned so much from his blog.
JMals actions showed he was completely without integrity. He threw Autarch under the bus and never showed a shred of regret or sense of responsibility.
Seems like I have missed Dwimmermount actually coming out. (But neither was I a Kickstarter supporter - and in hindsight, fortunately so.)
I have just snatched the PDF from RPGnow. Curious if the final result will be worth the delay...
Quote from: Fiasco;785059JMals actions showed he was completely without integrity. He threw Autarch under the bus and never showed a shred of regret or sense of responsibility.
I guess if we were in an action movie I'd give him a twenty minute head start before calling the police.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;785070I guess if we were in an action movie I'd give him a twenty minute head start before calling the police.
He didnt steal money, just abrogated all responsibility and then bobbed up a few months later and resumed posting as if nothing had happened.
Quote from: Larsdangly;785051That may be true but I would say, if so, it is an unfortunate characteristic of the dungeon, and one that is out of step with some of its audience. The OSR crowd is relatively into molding their own settings. A dungeon that is only playable with a certain view of religion, races, classes, etc. is a pretty small tent.
The reason the setting details revealed on the lower levels of the dungeon are important is that, as some reviews have pointed out, the original Dwimmermount campaign was focused on exploration and discovery. This sense of amassing knowledge and uncovering secrets is key to maintaining interest over the long term in megadungeon play. Simply mastering the layout of the dungeon provides some of this fuel - it gave my Thracia players great pleasure when they figured out how to reach an area they had observed through an upper shaft - but Dwimmermount goes further by establishing deep questions about the setting that players can discover through exploration, like "where do gods come from?"
To get the benefit of this conceptual exploration, it's not necessary to use the specific details the book provides. The key design feature is the way the dungeon is structured to make unraveling secrets a central activity of play. If a mystery like the origin of demihuman species doesn't make sense for your setting, you could swap it out for another that does. Using the dungeon's system for rewarding characters for discovering pieces of the mystery would make it easy to see where you'd want to place your own pieces of the puzzle.
Here's an example of a blogger adapting Dwimmermount to the WFRP setting (http://alifefullofadventure.blogspot.com/2014/08/warhammered-dwimmermount.html). He's just starting out but it's possible to see from the starting rumors how he's molding the details of race, religion, etc. to suit his campaign.
I agree that mystery is important to large dungeons and other adventures of extended exploration. I just find it tiresome to have over-long and overly detailed expositions on the answer to the mystery. I'ld rather the mystery just be cooked into the room descriptions and let the DM sort out whether there is a knowable back story and what it is. Sometimes the best explanation for something is '?!?'.
For example, the basic structure of Dwimmermount has certain things in common with B4 (Lost City). This is an exciting adventure with a slow 'reveal' of a mysterious cult-like community, but doesn't require tens of pages of back story.
So, I watched the whole Dwimmermount fiasco as it unfolded, an epic train wreck in the making. Here's my conclusions after looking at the just-released LL PDF:
1) JMal is a douche. Which sucks, because I really did like Grognardia; it got me back into Old School gaming. He's active on G+, but it's all private, which tells me he has no fucking balls and will never ever explain himself to anyone. Fuck that guy.
2) Autarch actually produced a quality product, which is quite amazing given everything that transpired. ESPECIALLY after seeing the original version. Chicken salad out of chicken shit indeed.
Quote from: Brad;785200So, I watched the whole Dwimmermount fiasco as it unfolded, an epic train wreck in the making. Here's my conclusions after looking at the just-released LL PDF:
1) JMal is a douche. Which sucks, because I really did like Grognardia; it got me back into Old School gaming. He's active on G+, but it's all private, which tells me he has no fucking balls and will never ever explain himself to anyone. Fuck that guy.
2) Autarch actually produced a quality product, which is quite amazing given everything that transpired. ESPECIALLY after seeing the original version. Chicken salad out of chicken shit indeed.
You know, that's actually one of the best compliments we've gotten thus far. Thanks very much!!
Quote from: wmarshal;785008I'm hoping that we can get some of the more known OSR folks on the web to give Dwimmermount some full reviews. Unfortunately, this might be hindered by the large page count. Also, some might be waiting for the ACKS version to be published. I'd like to hear some feedback (positive and negative) on this from someone not as invested as a backer, which I am (but won't be getting my books until the ACKS version arrives in the mail).
When the product has fully shipped I think it would also be useful if the Autarchs could make a short 'Lessons Learned' document/presentation so that others (creators, backers, etc.) could learn from this experience. Do this in a way that minimizes a flame war breaking out. I think many points have been brought up before, but they're scattered across the internet. Hopefully, the Autarchs will be able to find some time to do this amongst everything else going on.
I'm going to try and review it this fall when my roleplaying mojo is at full mast.
VS
Quote from: Larsdangly;785189I'ld rather the mystery just be cooked into the room descriptions and let the DM sort out whether there is a knowable back story and what it is.
Speaking as a GM, no thank you.
As a GM, I am not playing your adventure. I am not solving the mystery. I am trying to run the scenario. I don't want to have to read through your entire dungeon and solve the mystery for myself so that I can improvise material during play without contradicting the scenario. I particularly don't want to have to try to solve the mystery again (or figure exactly which three room descriptions you baked the information into) in the middle of play. So if you don't do your job by clearly and concisely summarizing the information the GM needs to run your scenario in a central and easy-to-reference location, the first thing I'm going to do in prepping your scenario is to create that reference.
Note that this central reference also makes it a lot easier to alter and customize the scenario.
Quote from: Larsdangly;785189I'ld rather the mystery just be cooked into the room descriptions and let the DM sort out whether there is a knowable back story and what it is. Sometimes the best explanation for something is '?!?'.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;785333Speaking as a GM, no thank you.
Sounds a bit like the RPGPundit vs. Geoffrey McKinney Isle of the Unknown fiasco.
Speaking strictly for myself, I'd rather have a backstory I can tweak, or ignore and replace, than nothing. But I don't mind cryptic open mysteries every now and then, especially for one-off games.
When I think about this issue, I recall classic adventures that contain weird societies and beings and complex plots, but don't clog the toilet with 50 pages of exposition. For example, the G and D modules for 1E. These are huge, far flung dungeons and mini-worlds filled with complicated societies and a big tie-together uber plot. But the page count for the whole thing is small and 90+% focused on room descriptions. I really don't need or appreciate something more elaborate than that.
Quote from: Larsdangly;785412When I think about this issue, I recall classic adventures that contain weird societies and beings and complex plots, but don't clog the toilet with 50 pages of exposition. For example, the G and D modules for 1E. These are huge, far flung dungeons and mini-worlds filled with complicated societies and a big tie-together uber plot. But the page count for the whole thing is small and 90+% focused on room descriptions. I really don't need or appreciate something more elaborate than that.
That's true.
I'm also reminded of Masks of Nyarlathotep which only had a few pages of backstory upfront, the rest was doled out scene by scene and encounter by encounter.
Still... if it's engaging, an info dump right off the bat might not be a bad thing. Will have to wait and see.
VS
Providing background history to a megadungeon and its inhabitants does not constrain a GM and may help a GM. The GM may use the information as is, may adapt the information to a different setting or ignore the information (just flip those pages). I have adapted Dwimmermount to my Known World/Mystara setting without difficulty.
In my opinion, there is sufficient weirdness in Dwimmermount that if no explanation were provided, at least some GMs would ask for, or discuss, possible explanations. Autarch has done that work already, if you choose to use it. Especially under the circumstances, I believe Autarch documented, indexed and, where needed, resolved Dwimmermount's mysteries with an extraordinary attention to detail, like cultist-craftsmen unraveling the mysteries of the Great Machine.
Quote from: Larsdangly;785189I agree that mystery is important to large dungeons and other adventures of extended exploration. I just find it tiresome to have over-long and overly detailed expositions on the answer to the mystery. I'ld rather the mystery just be cooked into the room descriptions and let the DM sort out whether there is a knowable back story and what it is. Sometimes the best explanation for something is '?!?'.
For example, the basic structure of Dwimmermount has certain things in common with B4 (Lost City). This is an exciting adventure with a slow 'reveal' of a mysterious cult-like community, but doesn't require tens of pages of back story.
There can also be the problem of mysteries becoming anything but, due to talk about the text. One can of course change things, but it's nice to minimize wasted text. I'm reluctant, though, to second-guess the judgment of the developers. I would say that I never found it a significant problem with the "reveals" in old Judges Guild and TSR scenarios, so I would not expect it to be one for me with Dwimmermount.
Quote from: The Butcher;785410Speaking strictly for myself, I'd rather have a backstory I can tweak, or ignore and replace, than nothing. But I don't mind cryptic open mysteries every now and then, especially for one-off games.
To be clear: I don't need an explanation for every mysterious or weird element of your scenario. (I actually like my game worlds to have elements of the fantastical that don't have any real explanation.)
But if you're presenting me with a coherent mystery that has an intended solution: As a GM, you need to just tell me what it is. I buy scenarios to run them, not read them as light fiction.
Quote from: VengerSatanis;785601I'm also reminded of Masks of Nyarlathotep which only had a few pages of backstory upfront, the rest was doled out scene by scene and encounter by encounter.
Weird example.
Masks of Nyarlathotep features an opening introduction which is almost the exact same percentage of the total text as
Dwimmermount's introductory material (not including hex key entries) and explicitly lays out a complete summary of background events and the explicit structure of the campaign.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;785791Weird example. Masks of Nyarlathotep features an opening introduction which is almost the exact same percentage of the total text as Dwimmermount's introductory material (not including hex key entries) and explicitly lays out a complete summary of background events and the explicit structure of the campaign.
If you look at Larsdangly's post at the top of page 2 in this thread, he states that the introductory backstory totals 100 pages (preferring the authors had reduced it to 1). I don't have Masks of Nyarlathotep handy but it can't be any more than 6 or 7 pages before the 1st scene begins with the player characters.
Without being able to see Dwimmermount myself, I don't know if that 100 page opening introduction is accurate. If it's much, much smaller, then you could be right about the Masks percentage...
VS
My ball park total included material defining how races and classes work in the setting, several of which are 'tweaked' from standard D&D
Quote from: Larsdangly;786152My ball park total included material defining how races and classes work in the setting, several of which are 'tweaked' from standard D&D
Ok, then how many pages for just the backstory of what's going on with Dwimmermount?
VS
Over the years I've learned "Guess What I'm Thinking" is a horrible game and sours relationships (especially observing romantic couples once the bloom is off).
And while the past is prologue, I've also learned people have little patience with windy exposition during the "Getting to Know You" phase.
Cheat sheets, people, cheat sheets. Take out a page or two for quick summaries, be it combat flowchart, adventure summary, relation map + faction agenda, etc. Processing mid-game (or low prep emergency) is the time when you want to fall back on the quick and easy crib notes — that's why cheat sheets were invented.
Quote from: Opaopajr;786212Over the years I've learned "Guess What I'm Thinking" is a horrible game and sours relationships (especially observing romantic couples once the bloom is off).
And while the past is prologue, I've also learned people have little patience with windy exposition during the "Getting to Know You" phase.
Cheat sheets, people, cheat sheets. Take out a page or two for quick summaries, be it combat flowchart, adventure summary, relation map + faction agenda, etc. Processing mid-game (or low prep emergency) is the time when you want to fall back on the quick and easy crib notes — that's why cheat sheets were invented.
+1 for cheat sheets!
VS
Quote from: VengerSatanis;786108If you look at Larsdangly's post at the top of page 2 in this thread, he states that the introductory backstory totals 100 pages (preferring the authors had reduced it to 1).
Ah, right. I'd missed him just flat-out lying about the contents of the first 100 pages there. He's apparently including the hexcrawl around the dungeon, the key for the city that the adventurers will be primarily based out of, and, bizarrely, over 40+ pages of material describing the actual dungeon as "background material".
My count of 40 pages starts from pg. 10 (the first page of actual text after the table of contents) and ends on pg. 50. That includes the History of Dwimmermount, the backgrounds of the various races, additional classes for Labyrinth Lord, starting knowledge / rumor tables, and initial adventure seeds.
QuoteI don't have Masks of Nyarlathotep handy but it can't be any more than 6 or 7 pages before the 1st scene begins with the player characters.
18-22 pages depending on which version you're looking at and how you count.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;786359Ah, right. I'd missed him just flat-out lying about the contents of the first 100 pages there. He's apparently including the hexcrawl around the dungeon, the key for the city that the adventurers will be primarily based out of, and, bizarrely, over 40+ pages of material describing the actual dungeon as "background material".
My count of 40 pages starts from pg. 10 (the first page of actual text after the table of contents) and ends on pg. 50. That includes the History of Dwimmermount, the backgrounds of the various races, additional classes for Labyrinth Lord, starting knowledge / rumor tables, and initial adventure seeds.
18-22 pages depending on which version you're looking at and how you count.
Thanks for calling out my ballpark approximation as a lie. Asshole.
Quote from: Larsdangly;786396Thanks for calling out my ballpark approximation as a lie. Asshole.
You're the asshole for making shit up and passing it off as the truth. But then again, you're not the first person to do so on this forum.
Quote from: amacris;785036Well, much of the lower levels of the dungeon only make sense within the framework of Telluria. All of Level 6B is built around the true nature of the dwarves. All of Levels 8 and 0 are built around the true nature of the gods. And so on.
It's a megadungeon campaign setting more than a run-this-in-any-setting dungeon.
Oh, too bad. I mean, for me that is. I hope lots of other people buy it and like it.
Since it's D&D we're talking about, I think it's reasonable to assume that getting players to any place, from Barsoom to Wonderland, is not too difficult.
The only difficulty is people who insist on confining the game to a particular very limited world. That's an arbitrary self-exile to a market that may or may not be as big a niche as they would hope, and in any case can hardly be expected to dictate terms to a project undertaken to suit a gamer's personal interests more than to go after their money.
Quote from: Old Geezer;786409Oh, too bad. I mean, for me that is. I hope lots of other people buy it and like it.
I have yet to see a product that I could not alter to suit my purposes. :)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;786420I have yet to see a product that I could not alter to suit my purposes. :)
True, but at what point is it more work than just starting with a blank piece of graph paper?
Rather like 'do we put in yet one more code patch or just rewrite this pig?'
With a scenario, you're buying ideas. Are they worth it? That's a question each ref can answer only for himself. Quite a few are happiest with just paper and pencil, and perhaps a trip to the library for inspiration.
Not being a backer, but glad to see the KS finally delivered.
Quote from: Phillip;786432With a scenario, you're buying ideas. Are they worth it? That's a question each ref can answer only for himself. Quite a few are happiest with just paper and pencil, and perhaps a trip to the library for inspiration.
Well, now, that's a good point too. Depending on how much it costs to buy the PDF of Dwimmermount, it might be worth having just to plunder it for ideas. Taking its stuff, as it were.
I am pretty sure you will get some very cool ideas and can likely steal dozens of encounters to drop into your own setting.