I've never run a CoC game or anything with strong influences by Lovecraft, though I've played in them (been a while now). But that's about to change shortly.  Now I'm trying to pinpoint the mindset here to get the tone of it, going back to the source material.

So I've been doing some reading, both HPL's stuff (staying clear of the 'based on' stuff so far) and some analysis of it.  In the later I came across a suggestion that Lovecraft himself did not consider himself writing horror but instead "dark fantasy". I'm digging that, because I never got the flat out fear of them. Just the sadness.

Anyway I've done a first pass at some rules to try capture the feel. But I've got time to rethink them and update them, so I want to make sure I'm getting the gist of it.

So I solicit aid, let the comment floodgates open! What are your deep thoughts on "Cthulhu" and his ilk?

Well, this is a pretty basic starting point, but Elder gods are:

1. Not Evil.

2. Not personalities.

They are what in religious studies are called Cthonic forces.  Which are the oldest kind of deities in real life religion too.  I'm talking about very early human tribal religion, where Gods weren't like Zeus or Apollo, human dudes who controlled the Storms or the Sun, they WERE The Storm or The Sun.

Make sure that your Elder gods are forces of nature.  They have more in common with a hurricane than with a human being, and the question of "morality" is just as alien to them as it would be to a Tsunami.

RPGPundit

Hrmmm, yep. CHECK! Got that. In spades. (EDIT: I think.)

In the entire document there is only one single small passing remark about non-human beings plus their inclusion in a few entries on a listing of a progresion of things that drive you mind around the bend.  The only named, core 'baddie' having full title previlages. "A Primeval Peril" that is one and the same with the magical power, and it corrupts everything that it touches.

I really need to find me some webspace to put it up somewhere.

Here we go, that crappy little bundled piece of webspace from my ISP has got to be good for something.

A Primeval Peril

It is still a little rough and wordy, but I'm not going to wring more out of it till I know what I'm keeping and what is going.

EDIT: And yes, the word "evil" does not come up once in the document. Sorry to those not familiar with the rules mechanics bits, but just perusing the section headers should give an idea of where it is going. Basically the only "spells" proper are curses that somehow alter the target either physically (run faster/slower, grow wings, go blind, etc.) or mentally (pick pretty much any single adjective for personality, mental thought accuities/defects) for some period of time.

In my estimation, the scariest thing about the Great Old Ones is that they are not evil; they are coldly impersonal and indifferent, just like the Universe.  

Stars burn out over the eons; time washes by with no concern for Man.  And the Old Ones simply are, they exist, and they don't even notice us.  Like Pundit sez, they are forces of nature.

Now.  The jolly fucknuts who venerate them, and do the most despicable things their human minds can conceive and call it "worship" or "servitude"...that's scary, too.

In fact, it's even worse.

Speaking ex officio as someone who was really into CoC and HPL for a long time, I can give you a quick guideline on running the elder gods.

Basically, they are evil only by human standards, in the same way that cows, chickens, sheep, etc, would likely regard humans es 'evil'. The elder gods simply see humans, if they see them at all, as animals to either use for whatever reason they choose, or to be wiped out.

Basically have the elder gods act towards humans the way humans act towards animals and you'll be on the right track. Sure, some elder gods may have cults and worshippers, imagine those cases as someone taming and training animals to serve him in some way, perhaps like hunting dogs or judas goats. Same idea.

@Dr Rotwang!

Yeah, I tried to hit on that in Profane Oaths describing how trigger conditions are put in place.  The magic doesn't rely on trickery so it doesn't purposefully hide, but it doesn't care either whether or not the victim knows about the trigger condition or not. It is just there with a sort of nonchalant boldness and functions completely indifferent to the victim. No "saving throw" either. See below.

Quote from: Dominus NoxBasically have the elder gods act towards humans the way humans act towards animals and you'll be on the right track. Sure, some elder gods may have cults and worshippers, imagine those cases as someone taming and training animals to serve him in some way, perhaps like hunting dogs or judas goats. Same idea.

Ah, that analogy makes a lot of sense for me. Thanks.

One thing I purposely did was to have certain mental stats being lower beneficial to directing the force of magic. The lower someone's Will (mental stat, roughly speaking social backbone) the faster they will master the nuances of Cursing someone. Likewise the lower someone's Steel (mental stat, roughly speaking ability to grit teeth and push ahead against adversity) the more likely their Emotional Attribute is to rise (corrupting their mind, driving them loonie/insane) which is also core to improving their sorcerous abilities.

Oh, and also the target and their stats never factors into whether or not the Curse succeeds. The force itself is so powerful and unstoppable as far as humans are concerned that the only question is whether or not it can be directed successfully towards the target.

Does that make sense?

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, this is a pretty basic starting point, but Elder gods are:

1. Not Evil.

2. Not personalities.

They are what in religious studies are called Cthonic forces.  Which are the oldest kind of deities in real life religion too.  I'm talking about very early human tribal religion, where Gods weren't like Zeus or Apollo, human dudes who controlled the Storms or the Sun, they WERE The Storm or The Sun.

Make sure that your Elder gods are forces of nature.  They have more in common with a hurricane than with a human being, and the question of "morality" is just as alien to them as it would be to a Tsunami.

RPGPundit

Would the Aton fall under this "cthonic forces" label as well?

Quote from: blakkie@Dr Rotwang!

Yeah, I tried to hit on that in Profane Oaths describing how trigger conditions are put in place.  The magic doesn't rely on trickery so it doesn't purposefully hide, but it doesn't care either whether or not the victim knows about the trigger condition or not. It is just there with a sort of nonchalant boldness and functions completely indifferent to the victim. No "saving throw" either. See below.


Ah, that analogy makes a lot of sense for me. Thanks.

One thing I purposely did was to have certain mental stats being lower beneficial to directing the force of magic. The lower someone's Will (mental stat, roughly speaking social backbone) the faster they will master the nuances of Cursing someone. Likewise the lower someone's Steel (mental stat, roughly speaking ability to grit teeth and push ahead against adversity) the more likely their Emotional Attribute is to rise (corrupting their mind, driving them loonie/insane) which is also core to improving their sorcerous abilities.

Oh, and also the target and their stats never factors into whether or not the Curse succeeds. The force itself is so powerful and unstoppable as far as humans are concerned that the only question is whether or not it can be directed successfully towards the target.

Does that make sense?

Hmm, here's an idea for you to ponder:

People with intelligence but low will can learn the magics of some elder gods quickly and easily BUT in the process become controlled by the ender god, who uses the benefits of his magic as a way of luring people into his service and conditioning them as his agents.

Sort of like giving a dog a milk bone, then holding the milk bone out past a hoop you want him to jump thru to train him to obey.

It might be possible for a stronger willed person to learn some magic, buit it's harder because he doesn't submit to the 'conditoning' as readily and is basically stealing the power rather than being given it.

You'd have to work out the rules and effects in the system you're using, there are just generic ideas.

QuoteYou'd have to work out the rules and effects in the system you're using, there are just generic ideas.

See A Primeval Peril link above, I wrote rules roughly that way (specifics about Will in the section called "A Soul Stained").  Only "Intellegence" (there really isn't an Int stat in Burning Wheel) doesn't really factor into it so much other than Ancient Languages and Ancient History are helpful skills to have.

Also the rules are structured so that insanity leads to sorcery, not the other way around. You want to be a "mage"? Get a little bit insane and then go find some musty tome about Doing Bad Things to read using your Ancient Languages (the later likely to put you into the required partial nutjob category if you aren't there already).  Want to be a better "mage"? Corrupt yourself further and get more insane!

Want to be less insane (and corrospondingly less powerful) so you don't go over the brink into total veggie state? Take some time off (6 months is the period given right now) and rest and heal. Only other insane people are going to try to hunt you down and confront you and the result is likely to keep you 'on track'.

EDIT: In case you aren't familiar with Burning Wheel rule notations, basically I set it up so there are to sources of dice for attempting to invoke a Curse. The first is your Kišpu, the Emotional Attribute (more Kišpu = more insane) and Stains.  Increasing the dice gained from a Stain is easier (takes less successful attempts) the lower you Will is.

Read the short story Call of Cthulhu some time. Note the climax, where a U. S. Naval Lieutenant drives bow sprit of his ship into the monster. Cthulhu knows about humans. He knows they're dangerous. They can hurt him. They could possibly kill him. He doesn't understand them, they don't think like he does, but he does know about them.

It's like the situation between us and argentine fire ants. We are aware of argentine fire ants because we know the ants can hurt us, even kill us. But we don't understand them. It's the same deal between Cthulhu and us.

Which presents an adventure possibility. Cultists are trying to awaken Cthulhu. In the investigation the party learns that Cthulhu is, in effect, anthrophobic. He's deathly terrified of humans because of that long ago incident. The cultists do awaken him he's apt to go beserk and destroy the world once he learns he's dealing with humans.  Worst comes to worst how do you calm down an entity so far advanced from you he can't comprehend you?

"There are things in the Universe billions of years older than either of our races. They are vast, timeless, and if they are aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants and we have as much chance of communicating with them as an ant has with us. We know. We've tried and we've learned that we can either stay out from underfoot or be stepped on. They are a mystery and I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the Universe, that we have not explained everything. Whatever they are, Miss Sakai, they walk near Sigma 957 and they must walk there alone."
- Ambassador G'Kar Babylon 5: Mind War

Less sinister, perhaps, than the implications of most Lovecraft, but similar in theme.

@mythusmage : It wasn't clear to me how much of a threat the damage really was. But something to consider. I was thinking a less direct, more stuble plot. That's my impression so far of what they (both groups) are looking for to start with. But come to think of it the one was talking about a possible endgame of face-to-face with lesser abominations. The rules I've got actually get fairly nasty Hesitation and/or psyche damage going face-to-face with even with the lesser servant types.

@J Arcane : Yeah, I was under the impression that that particular B5 plotline was a very deliberate lifting of Lovecraft's work.

Quote from: SigmundWould the Aton fall under this "cthonic forces" label as well?

Aton was a little more complex than that. On the one hand, you could see it as a return to a more Cthonic religion.  On another hand, it was clearly the precursor to monotheism, which was a later development that came to replace polytheistic paganism in the western world.

Yes, to Akhenaton, the Aton was LITERALLY the Sun.  But it was also the source of all existence, and it had a personality, embodied in the Pharaoh as the living representative of the Aton.

RPGPundit

I like the way Second Sight's appendix (which is the best part about the book!) discusses Cthonic Entities and games with them.

First of all - They are completely uncomprehendable and alien existing outside of reality itself. Not "we haven't figured it out yet", but, "you will never be able to understand one little bit of them, to even try will destroy your psyche and to barely experience one will destroy your soul".

Second - Human beings are the opposite to Elder Gods. Not only are they comprehendable, they are inconsequential. Human beings do not matter at all to Elder Gods.

Three - So, what are these tragic games about? Elder Gods? No. The Elder Gods are a part of the setting, not even you the GM can comprehend them, so how will you portray them to your players? You can't.

The game is about people.

What are the players going to do when themselves and especially those around them have gotten a glimpse of an imcomprehensible and powerful truth?
The answer is: go crazy.
The point of the game is: How?