Quote from: RPGPunditAton was a little more complex than that. On the one hand, you could see it as a return to a more Cthonic religion.  On another hand, it was clearly the precursor to monotheism, which was a later development that came to replace polytheistic paganism in the western world.

Yes, to Akhenaton, the Aton was LITERALLY the Sun.  But it was also the source of all existence, and it had a personality, embodied in the Pharaoh as the living representative of the Aton.

RPGPundit

My understanding is when scholars of Greek Mythology use the term Cthonic to describe a deity, it is often due to assosiations with the earth and darkness, and that the root term of Cthonic has something to do with 'underground' in meaning.

Not that I'm any expert. But if I am not entirely crack smoking, by definition Aton, as the Sun, could not be properly Cthonic, even if he was a more primative 'SUN' rather than 'Aton the guy who keeps the sun up there'...


So, in the Greek, Hades is Cthonic, Zeus is not.  OF course, this doesn't preclude Hades and some of the Titans that came before Zeus from actually being older names for more encompassing aspects of reality, the survivors of some ancient tribal holy war becoming more anthropomorphized and only being Cthonic in origin rather than portrayal...

Quote from: KrakaJakThree - So, what are these tragic games about? Elder Gods? No. The Elder Gods are a part of the setting, not even you the GM can comprehend them, so how will you portray them to your players? You can't.

The game is about people.

What are the players going to do when themselves and especially those around them have gotten a glimpse of an imcomprehensible and powerful truth?
The answer is: go crazy.
The point of the game is: How?

Kerpow. That's it. People going nuts. And, from the cultist/"mage" side, screwing up their connection with the rest of humanity. Well in my case I went with a bit of a sucker's game that explains why people would willingly go nuts. Want to get just a little power, swing a little close, and down the spiral they go. If you don't turn your back on the magic and try to get out it's just a foot race between your mind checking out and everybody hating you, and your power increasing as you go down. (EDIT: And even if you do turn your back and somehow manage to get out you still come out a little bit nuts and some people hating you, unless you manage to kill every last one of the later which is unlikely.)

And really melancholy, or beyond melancholy. More than a greatness lost but a greatness that is and yet is beyond humans (you) ever being able to have a fraction of awareness of without ending your existance.

Like I said in the beginning, I come away with sadness not fear.

I find this very unbelievable in playing practice.
The old ones aren´t scary in play.

What is there that you don´t understand?
What let´s you go crazy?
There is no shocking truth, just a GM that says: " The blasphemeous truth you can never understand!"
Lame.

I think it´s stupid to actually make the nihilism the center of the game.

CoC is an adventure game with escalating difficulty.
That´s what it´s good at.

Quote from: SettembriniThe old ones aren´t scary in play.

Not 'boo' scary, no. Or in the stories. Which has been cover here already. Thanks!

Quote from: SettembriniWhat is there that you don´t understand?
What let´s you go crazy?
There is no shocking truth, just a GM that says: " The blasphemeous truth you can never understand!"
Lame.

Well yes if that's all the GM says then it is pretty lame. And no, it can't be directly stated. If you read through the stories it isn't there either. Take Call of Cthulh (the short story) when he makes his appearance he is NOT described in details. His presense is described and some general aspects are greasily noted, but absolutely no details of his form. Those are all hints from earlier, and to mention them there would fuck it up. It is a tough and sutble job to do, which is why I started this thread to get input from people to get my mind in the groove for this (and thanks everyone for that).

QuoteI think it´s stupid to actually make the nihilism the center of the game.

Don't you mean "swinish"? :rolleyes:

QuoteCoC is an adventure game with escalating difficulty.
That´s what it´s good at.

OR...that is what you are good at?  Well I suppose the roots of CoC's system mechanics may help it in being treated as a bug hunt. *shrug* But what CoC is? Well I guess that's a topic for a different thread.  Have at it!

Incidentally I'm actively trying to avoid abject nihilism being the center of the game. The PC avoiding their own destruction inspite of themselves, even though avoiding it is a faint hope to do so, is the conflict I'm aiming for.

EDIT: Although yes, abject nihilism from a human's POV is at the center of the backdrop. There is an ultimate truth, but you just ain't gonna ever know it because you can't handle it. That be the genre.

Quote from: SettembriniI find this very unbelievable in playing practice.
The old ones aren´t scary in play.

What is there that you don´t understand?
What let´s you go crazy?
There is no shocking truth, just a GM that says: " The blasphemeous truth you can never understand!"
Lame.

I think it´s stupid to actually make the nihilism the center of the game.

CoC is an adventure game with escalating difficulty.
That´s what it´s good at.

Nonsense, the original stories are essentially an anthropomorphised existentialism, they're about the realisation that the universe is indifferent to us, our hopes and our fates.

The game reflects that rather well.  It is not an adventure game with escalating difficulty, that rather misses the point of it, though it can certainly do that too.

On my reading Blakkie gets the game pretty well, such point and heroism as exists in it is that which the characters make for themselves, as ultimately the universe provides none.

Quote from: SettembriniI find this very unbelievable in playing practice.
The old ones aren´t scary in play.

What is there that you don´t understand?
What let´s you go crazy?
There is no shocking truth, just a GM that says: " The blasphemeous truth you can never understand!"
Lame.

I think it´s stupid to actually make the nihilism the center of the game.

CoC is an adventure game with escalating difficulty.
That´s what it´s good at.

It's proof of our own irrelevance that drives people crazy in the game, proof that the universe is not as we think it is and does not care for us at all, doesn't even care enough to hate us.

That's why when people make the GOOs malevolent they fundamentally miss the point, the point is that the GOOs really don't care about us any more than we care about ants we may step on as we walk down the road.

The horror in the original CoC story doesn't come from the big monster, it comes from realising that it's all true and that the universe does not work at all as we thought it did.  Same in Mountains of Madness, it's not the horror that drives men mad, it's the proof that the universe is as terrible as they had read it was.

QuoteWell yes if that's all the GM says then it is pretty lame.

No, it´s all Lovecraft says.

Shadow over Innsmouth, Rats in the Wall are scary, or at least evocative. The "Mythos" is just lame as the center of play.

The ununderstandable horror *gasp!* is the lame part. It´s undunderstandable, so it´s as good as random. It´s nihilism.

I´ve had more than one GM who was expecting us to emote strongly in a certain way at the nihilism. If the universe shrugs at you, you shrug back.

It´s the human lives that are affected and twisted that one can relate to.

But I´m giving you the benefit of the doubt, and maybe it´s just me.

Let me tell you my sad story:

We where in a nice little campaign, and already found out about some stuff, namely Yithians and mind control. We also had some very neat characterplay and really had something to loose.
Then came the adventure "Bad Moon Rising". Pure in-game nihilism, and it was just boring and senseless. Especially after we found out about the circular universe and Azathoth in the middle.

Everything is irrelevant!
For eternity!
The horror!

How lame.

To me, that was just like the magic deer, on a grander scale.

Don´t get me wrong: Lovecraft wrote emotionally touching stuff. But the nihilism part inherent in Azathoth and his time-circle are a total game-killer.

QuoteIt's proof of our own irrelevance that drives people crazy in the game

I don´t get that. Why should anyone feel special?

You love people, you care for them, that dosn´t go away because there´s some entity at the center of the universe that doesn´t care.

We are irrelevant, that is reality, nothing to get mad at. It´s our fellow humans that give us meaning, and we provide it to them. Azathoth doesn´t take this away.

No need to loose sanity.

EDIT:

QuoteStars burn out over the eons; time washes by with no concern for Man.  And the Old Ones simply are, they exist, and they don't even notice us.

As I said, that´s basically reality just with more random death. Nothing scary or insanity inducing.

You don't get it (yet); it isn't for you; you can't stop using the word 'scary'; a GM of yours reached beyond his grasp and fell on his ass. *shrug*  Move on then, nothing for you to see here.

Okay, I´ll watch and learn.

Quote from: SettembriniOkay, I´ll watch and learn.

How old are you? I don't mean this as an insult or belittling or anything, but how old?

Any kids?

Quote from: SettembriniI don´t get that. Why should anyone feel special?

You love people, you care for them, that dosn´t go away because there´s some entity at the center of the universe that doesn´t care.

We are irrelevant, that is reality, nothing to get mad at. It´s our fellow humans that give us meaning, and we provide it to them. Azathoth doesn´t take this away.

No need to loose sanity.

Not anymore, sure, but there was a time in the past where this idea was very disturbing. There was a time when the mostly religious people looked at a world that science was rapidly growing and a worldview that thinkers constantly challenged and were a little scared by it. If you grew up rigidly following a simple christian worldview that we are special people in a special place and someone told you and even found a way to show you how not only are we tiny ants on a tiny farm in a massive void, but instead of God there are large unfathomable beings who would as soon pull of your legs as look at you? That would be mind-bending.

Problem is that really doesn't work on most people anymore, so CoC is more 'Beast of the Week' with a few spooks tossed in.

Over 25, and at least one kid.
Now I´m interested, what´s that to do with it?

EDIT: http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=RPGpundit&tab=weblogs&uid=560745921

Is where Pundit talks about it, too. And I think he goes overboard. One can have very strong convictions & values and still not relate to men´s irrelevance.

Quote from: JamesVProblem is that really doesn't work on most people anymore, so CoC is more 'Beast of the Week' with a few spooks tossed in.

That's it.  Existential horror just isn't scary any more.  We have bigger threats to be scared of