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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Omega on August 23, 2020, 09:16:32 am

Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 23, 2020, 09:16:32 am
Spinning off from the other threads on the disabled and what can be applied.

Being disabled myself and having worked with a number of disabled gamers now. Some thoughts.

Note that all of this is totally dependent on how flexible and/or lenient the setting, system, other players, and especially the DM are. But it can also help when dealing with a character thats become disabled during the course of adventuring.

One of the big things that a fantasy or Sci-fi/Cyberpunk setting and system can allow for is the exploration of various workaround to being disabled. This could be done right in chargen, or something a PC is working to create, find, or otherwise gain access to. And by workaround I mean things that lessen, or totally negate being disabled. These things exist in the real world and some have been around a long long time even. But in settings with access to fantastical methods all manner of new approaches could possibly exist. Some have been discussed in the other threads.

First off is the factor of the severity of the impairment and how much it impacts an adventuring lifestyle.
The simple fact is that without some sort of effective workaround certain impairments will make adventuring impossible. Easiest example is a straight-up blind person. Without some means to perceive their surroundings with some modicum of accuracy, its not going to work. While a character that has lost just one eye might be at a slight disadvantage with ranges and be better off with melee combat. A deaf person on the other hand will be easier to sneak up on. Obviously co-ordinating with others they cant see will be dicey. And are not going to hear certain auditory cues like footsteps, a monsters roar, a cry for help. While a person only 1/2 deaf will have no auditory "depth perception". They can hear the sound but figuring out WHERE the sound is coming from will be a hassle. And a person missing a limb is going to be restricted in types of weapons can use if say missing an arm or even just a hand.

Now comes the workaround factor.
Workarounds have been around for probably as long as theres been tool use. Possibly even before that as will detail next. Workarounds as noted are things that lessen the impact of being disabled in some way. These too have some variance in effectiveness.
The most basic are natural enhancements of one or more other senses to make up a little for the loss of one. From discussion and experience talking with others theres no set pattern or surety that you will ever get any compensation sense. Or even that what you get will be actually useful. It also depends on the level of the enhancement. Some Ive seen or discussed with others are things like enhances sense of smell, sense of touch, sensitivity to vibrations, sharper hearing, etc. Then theres just how well a person can make use of that.
But the main type of workaround are tools of some sort. Everything from hook hands, peg legs, utility stump caps, wheelchairs, even crutches can lessen the impact of some disabilities. And once you get into the fantastical tools the types of problems and level of counteracting it can expand quite a bit.

Starting off with our old friend the wheelchair. This is just not normally workable in say a fantasy adventuring/dungeoneering setting without some effort. And about all of these do take effort and/or co-operation with other players and their characters to sometimes make this possible. So a bog standard rigid wheelchair is right out not going to work. But a folding one can. Meet an obstacle? Someone carries the character and someone else carries the wheelchair on their pack/back, etc. Working together to make this work.

But fantastical conveyances are often to be bought, created, or unearthed. In D&D things like Animate Object or a tailor made golem can work better. Creating a more mobile and agile conveyance. Theres also the animate dead idea presented in another thread and even things like a broom of flying or flying carpet as the conveyance. Much the same in a technological setting. Depending on what might be allowed to a character that could include things like magical legs or a prosthetic that is a plant grown and fitted to or in the character. Some of these can totally negate a disability. A good example in D&D are the various eye items that allow recovery of sight. Cybernetics can do the same things. This can also include things like a full suit that restores movement, or a helment that restores sight or hearing.

But one trick that rarely seems to get used is the concept of the "waldo" or remote body. Instead of the character going out themselves they instead adventure through some construct or even an animal/monster they control with their will or actually inhabit fully with their mind.

Thats just some basic ideas that might, or more likely, might not, prove of use to someone.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: The Exploited. on August 23, 2020, 09:35:18 am
With magic/tech you can fix anything.

Wheel chairs are not all that much of a problem in a hi-tech (or a supers) environment. Or in a game like Numenera, where you could easily have some kind of 'mini-disk' to fly around on, like the Mekon. Elric used potions to fix his physical weakness.

There's a bazillion workarounds... It just depends on how you want the character to be adapted. Not wanting to fix (even temporarily) a disability seems odd to me, especially in an RPG.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Chris24601 on August 23, 2020, 10:50:18 am
A prime example of a workaround in a modern setting that doesn't require anything super-fancy is the Oracle/Overwatch character. They're hacking into systems; opening doors, identifying enemy forces by their heat signatures from a satellite, locating things based on sensors and schematics, etc.

As they also play the role of "heart" in the five-man band type concept, I've also built a few in superhero games with morale-boosting/counter-emotional effects abilities.

Just give one or more of the PCs body cams and comms and its like they're there with the party and able to employ their observational and hacking abilities to aid the team and it doesn't require anything beyond what we consider normal (for an action series/movie anyway) modern capabilities.

Being in a wheelchair isn't even a hindrance to such a character 99% of the time. Only the rare instance of a villain tracking the overwatch character down to their hidden location or a situation where their expertise is absolutely required in the field does it ever significantly interfere with their role on the team and in a game like Mutants & Masterminds, those fall more under the heading of "complications" than actual disadvantages.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2020, 11:50:36 am
As long as the workaround doesn't turn the disabled character into a superhero I'm fine with it in any game (in superhero games I have no problem with that of course).

Love the "waldo" idea, hadn't heard it called that before.

As for a person without legs... The spider belt, it has 4 legs and it responds to the wearer's thoughts, it needs to be connected to the wearer's body in the stumps. Magical self mending, light weight wood as fire resistant as the wearer's body is.

It gives the wearer mobility without being cumbersome and without turning the wearer into a superhero, it doesn't climb like a spider despite the name, it doesn't fly/float unless the wearer uses a spell so he/she can.

Disadvantages, it has no sense of touch therefore certain dangers/monsters (grappling vines for instance) are more likely to go unnoticed at first.

Advantages, if Spider climb is used on the wearer he/she can climb like a spider and have the hands free all the time to make attacks while climbing. Due to the legs articulations the wearer can duck lower.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2020, 12:06:37 pm
Played a quadriplegic mage in Shadowrun (3e) for a very high-powered game. Physical body was never involved in runs, I did everything in Astral form with my "gang" of watcher spirits and elemental "enforcers" backing me up. Fun thing was I could still interact physically with dual natured beings, like carrying the shapeshifter through the air and over a fence or grappling with a cyber zombie and then accelerating to "astral fast travel speed" (which was crazy fast) and letting go right before the zombie hit a wall at > 1000 kph.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on August 23, 2020, 04:43:23 pm
Quote from: Omega;1146117
Spinning off from the other threads on the disabled and what can be applied.

Being disabled myself and having worked with a number of disabled gamers now. Some thoughts.

Note that all of this is totally dependent on how flexible and/or lenient the setting, system, other players, and especially the DM are. But it can also help when dealing with a character thats become disabled during the course of adventuring.

One of the big things that a fantasy or Sci-fi/Cyberpunk setting and system can allow for is the exploration of various workaround to being disabled. This could be done right in chargen, or something a PC is working to create, find, or otherwise gain access to. And by workaround I mean things that lessen, or totally negate being disabled. These things exist in the real world and some have been around a long long time even. But in settings with access to fantastical methods all manner of new approaches could possibly exist. Some have been discussed in the other threads.

First off is the factor of the severity of the impairment and how much it impacts an adventuring lifestyle.
The simple fact is that without some sort of effective workaround certain impairments will make adventuring impossible. Easiest example is a straight-up blind person. Without some means to perceive their surroundings with some modicum of accuracy, its not going to work. While a character that has lost just one eye might be at a slight disadvantage with ranges and be better off with melee combat. A deaf person on the other hand will be easier to sneak up on. Obviously co-ordinating with others they cant see will be dicey. And are not going to hear certain auditory cues like footsteps, a monsters roar, a cry for help. While a person only 1/2 deaf will have no auditory "depth perception". They can hear the sound but figuring out WHERE the sound is coming from will be a hassle. And a person missing a limb is going to be restricted in types of weapons can use if say missing an arm or even just a hand.

Now comes the workaround factor.
Workarounds have been around for probably as long as theres been tool use. Possibly even before that as will detail next. Workarounds as noted are things that lessen the impact of being disabled in some way. These too have some variance in effectiveness.
The most basic are natural enhancements of one or more other senses to make up a little for the loss of one. From discussion and experience talking with others theres no set pattern or surety that you will ever get any compensation sense. Or even that what you get will be actually useful. It also depends on the level of the enhancement. Some Ive seen or discussed with others are things like enhances sense of smell, sense of touch, sensitivity to vibrations, sharper hearing, etc. Then theres just how well a person can make use of that.
But the main type of workaround are tools of some sort. Everything from hook hands, peg legs, utility stump caps, wheelchairs, even crutches can lessen the impact of some disabilities. And once you get into the fantastical tools the types of problems and level of counteracting it can expand quite a bit.

Starting off with our old friend the wheelchair. This is just not normally workable in say a fantasy adventuring/dungeoneering setting without some effort. And about all of these do take effort and/or co-operation with other players and their characters to sometimes make this possible. So a bog standard rigid wheelchair is right out not going to work. But a folding one can. Meet an obstacle? Someone carries the character and someone else carries the wheelchair on their pack/back, etc. Working together to make this work.

But fantastical conveyances are often to be bought, created, or unearthed. In D&D things like Animate Object or a tailor made golem can work better. Creating a more mobile and agile conveyance. Theres also the animate dead idea presented in another thread and even things like a broom of flying or flying carpet as the conveyance. Much the same in a technological setting. Depending on what might be allowed to a character that could include things like magical legs or a prosthetic that is a plant grown and fitted to or in the character. Some of these can totally negate a disability. A good example in D&D are the various eye items that allow recovery of sight. Cybernetics can do the same things. This can also include things like a full suit that restores movement, or a helment that restores sight or hearing.

But one trick that rarely seems to get used is the concept of the "waldo" or remote body. Instead of the character going out themselves they instead adventure through some construct or even an animal/monster they control with their will or actually inhabit fully with their mind.

Thats just some basic ideas that might, or more likely, might not, prove of use to someone.

Players at my tables with disabilities have always wanted to, and role-played, heroes in our games. I'm guessing there will be a thread on here about guys only being able to play guy characters, or some nonsense.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2020, 04:52:52 pm
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1146165
Players at my tables with disabilities have always wanted to, and role-played, heroes in our games. I'm guessing there will be a thread on here about guys only being able to play guy characters, or some nonsense.

Wait, you mean the rules don't prohibit men from playing women!? Shocked... (Sarcasm if anyone needs the clarification)
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 23, 2020, 11:09:22 pm
I didnt really touch on superhero settings as often in those there are so many different workarounds that not even magic based settings can match.

One that has come up in some magic and sci-fi settings that only just now remembered was the idea of a blind person via psi power or magic being able to see through a pet or familliar or some magic object like a robe of eyes.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 24, 2020, 12:43:54 am
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1146165
Players at my tables with disabilities have always wanted to, and role-played, heroes in our games. I'm guessing there will be a thread on here about guys only being able to play guy characters, or some nonsense.

Um... noooooo. That is not at all what this subject is about? How the hell you read any of that and came away with "disabled people cant play normal people" is utterly beyond me.

We are talking about CHARACTERS. Not players. C-H-A-R-A-C-T-E-R-S.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: RollingBones on August 24, 2020, 04:28:58 am
I think, to a lesser extent, the idea of tools even extends to character's that would not be otherwise considered disabled.

A bonus from a magic item might stand in for actually having points in a skill, for instance. It also works the other way, where a magic user may be effectively hobbled by an anti-magic field.

Magical items basically exist for the purpose of making up the gap between a character's natural (or earned) abilities, and the requirements of the moment.

A great thing about this is that they can also provide opportunities to present the characters with challenges. That magical skeleteon key you've been relying on instead of actually improving your lockpicking? It doesn't work on this particular lock, what could that mean, and what other solutions could there be to this scenario?

Omega has a great example of the wheelchair and negotiating the swamp.

For me, much of the fun in a great scenario is presenting the players with unique puzzles that confront their weaknesses, that challenge them to adapt and overcome. Something more than just ever escalating CRs.

I think that's one of the reasons characters with some natural disadvantages, or straight up disabilities, can bring so much to a game.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2020, 07:47:27 pm
With regard to "curing" disabilities... (I'm legally disabled myself btw)

Some disabled people find the concept of curing disabilities to be offensive because of the implication that disabled lives aren't worth living. (This has been used as justification by doctors to let disabled people die of Covid, so it is a real and actively dangerous social problem. So I would rather not contribute to it in any way because I don't want some asshole doctor consigning me to death for not meeting his ableist standards.)

I've been wondering different ways of balancing this line between representing disabled characters without devaluing their lived experiences as disabled people.

One possibility I've seen is that the disabled character shares their body with someone or something else that compensates for them. A robotic chip, an alien symbiote, a suit of powered armor, etc.

What do you think?
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Shasarak on August 24, 2020, 08:22:14 pm
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1146299
With regard to "curing" disabilities... (I'm legally disabled myself btw)

What do you think?

I think, who are the illegally disabled?
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 25, 2020, 01:47:25 am
One of the most important things that should be mentioned for any and all workarounds is this: In the context of an adventuring game, they have to be temporary and conditional. In other words, the possibility of the PC losing the workaround has to be real and everpresent (if not necessarily all that high on an encounter-by-encounter basis), and even if the workaround fully alleviates the penalties that would normally come with an impairment, the workaround itself has to require a little more time, attention and effort to manage than a character who doesn't need it must spend. The drama then becomes not about how the PC overcomes the impairment, but the tension of whether he will have to in any given event/encounter.

For mundane physical prosthetics it's easy enough to throw a lost pair of glasses or a broken chair at the PC.  Magical or superscience workarounds should work their conditionality, whatever it is, into the backstory of both the workaround and the character (as with my demonic armour that lets a paralyzed warrior fight again, but won't let him enter a church, to quote myself from another thread).
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: jhkim on August 25, 2020, 02:12:38 am
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1146338
One of the most important things that should be mentioned for any and all workarounds is this: In the context of an adventuring game, they have to be temporary and conditional. In other words, the possibility of the PC losing the workaround has to be real and everpresent (if not necessarily all that high on an encounter-by-encounter basis), and even if the workaround fully alleviates the penalties that would normally come with an impairment, the workaround itself has to require a little more time, attention and effort to manage than a character who doesn't need it must spend. The drama then becomes not about how the PC overcomes the impairment, but the tension of whether he will have to in any given event/encounter.
Is this for game balance reasons, or for dramatic tension reasons?

When I think of fictional examples, they often don't have a significant downside. For example, in Star Trek, Geordi's visor is rarely a source of dramatic tension. It's just a special ability of his that is quite reliable. Likewise, Daredevil's blindness is rarely a weakness for him - it's more often a strength, as he isn't blinded by flashes or fooled by visual illusions.

On the one hand, I think it can be great to have drama over a workaround. When I ran a game based on the TV series Alphas, I thought the downsides of each PC were a frequent source of tensions and they made for great drama. On the other hand, I'm hesitant to say that this sort of drama should be required. I've had a lot of games that were plenty of fun without that sort of drama.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: RollingBones on August 25, 2020, 06:32:11 am
Quote from: jhkim;1146339
Likewise, Daredevil's blindness is rarely a weakness for him - it's more often a strength, as he isn't blinded by flashes or fooled by visual illusions.

Daredevil generally fights in close confines: inside buildings, or more famously in churches and hallways, almost exclusively at night, preferably in darkness. In our case, in dungeons. In these scenarios his blindness can be made a strength, ie. short range blindsight. Outside, in open areas, especially well lit, it can be made a weakness. Especially against ranged opponents.

Quote from: Shasarak;1146310
I think, who are the illegally disabled?

People who 'borrow' someone else's disability permit for a better parking space!
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 25, 2020, 07:30:30 am
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1146299
With regard to "curing" disabilities... (I'm legally disabled myself btw)

Some disabled people find the concept of curing disabilities to be offensive because of the implication that disabled lives aren't worth living. (This has been used as justification by doctors to let disabled people die of Covid, so it is a real and actively dangerous social problem. So I would rather not contribute to it in any way because I don't want some asshole doctor consigning me to death for not meeting his ableist standards.)

I've been wondering different ways of balancing this line between representing disabled characters without devaluing their lived experiences as disabled people.

One possibility I've seen is that the disabled character shares their body with someone or something else that compensates for them. A robotic chip, an alien symbiote, a suit of powered armor, etc.

What do you think?

How does wanting a cure or workaround for being disabled make a persons life not worth living? Ive run into these nuts decades ago and seen them resurface recently preaching the same damn thing. "Accept! Embrace your Crippledness! Cures are Bad! Wanting to live a normal life is BAD!"

It makes the rest of us look like unreasoning nutcases.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 25, 2020, 07:59:47 am
Quote from: Shasarak;1146310
I think, who are the illegally disabled?

The better term might be "recognized disabled". And the level of disability to be recognized varies from place to place. This I and others have unfortunately run into. But thats a subject for elsewhere.

In a fantasy setting though I'd think that being "legally disabled" would see alot of variance as well as most people would just eyeball it and make a call and go with that. Or help or not as they deem. Which is pretty much how people act for real.

Last year was at a store and there was a fellow in a wheelchair asking for help. Problem was due to breathing problems his voice was so low I couldnt understand him and eventually someone else was able to help. I still feel bad about that despite there being nothing could do.

Which brings up an odd situation that can come up in a campaign. Where you have either two incompatible disabilities in different characters, or two compatible ones. A mute character who can only talk in sign language is going to have a hard time communicating with a blind one. Or nigh impossible if the character is deaf and mute. On the flip side a blind and a deaf character might make a viable team if they are good at co-ordinating with eachother.

Years ago I saw this martial arts movie that had a pair of severely deformed characters who were surprisingly good martial artists and co-ordinated really well. A man with no arms teaming with a man with no legs. Crippled Masters if you can ever find it.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 25, 2020, 07:59:54 am
Quote from: Shasarak;1146310
I think, who are the illegally disabled?

*chuckles*

'Legally disabled' is a legal finding that you are suffering some form of disability to an extent that it limits your rights and responsibilities. People who are 'legally blind' for example cannot obtain a motor vehicle operation license.

It's not a criminal or moral finding, it's just a straight up acknowledgement that you're below a minimum threshold.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 25, 2020, 08:11:16 am
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1146338
One of the most important things that should be mentioned for any and all workarounds is this: In the context of an adventuring game, they have to be temporary and conditional. In other words, the possibility of the PC losing the workaround has to be real and everpresent (if not necessarily all that high on an encounter-by-encounter basis), and even if the workaround fully alleviates the penalties that would normally come with an impairment, the workaround itself has to require a little more time, attention and effort to manage than a character who doesn't need it must spend. The drama then becomes not about how the PC overcomes the impairment, but the tension of whether he will have to in any given event/encounter.

For mundane physical prosthetics it's easy enough to throw a lost pair of glasses or a broken chair at the PC.  Magical or superscience workarounds should work their conditionality, whatever it is, into the backstory of both the workaround and the character (as with my demonic armour that lets a paralyzed warrior fight again, but won't let him enter a church, to quote myself from another thread).

Exactly. Any workaround that isnt like grafted onto the character can be lost in one way or another. Conveyances stolen or broken. Or just the character knocked off them or tipped over. This could prove a real problem depending on how easy or not it is to get righted again. Having your seeing orb or familliar killed or just bagged is another. Strap on prosthetics can be pulled off. Or damaged. And grafted on prosthetics can be damaged as well. Or severed.

And even magically generated prosthetics can be negated by anti magic zones or dispel magic even depending on the type and system.

I think though you dont really need rules for this as it "should" be a common assumption that these tools can be lost just like any other.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: VisionStorm on August 25, 2020, 11:02:51 am
People who take offense to the notion of having their disabilities cured have two disabilities: the one they need cured, and the one that prevents them from wanting to be cured.

And don't make special accommodations for nor enable willful idiots. ;)
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 25, 2020, 11:30:28 am
Quote from: jhkim;1146339
Is this for game balance reasons, or for dramatic tension reasons?

When I think of fictional examples, they often don't have a significant downside. For example, in Star Trek, Geordi's visor is rarely a source of dramatic tension. It's just a special ability of his that is quite reliable. Likewise, Daredevil's blindness is rarely a weakness for him - it's more often a strength, as he isn't blinded by flashes or fooled by visual illusions.

On the one hand, I think it can be great to have drama over a workaround. When I ran a game based on the TV series Alphas, I thought the downsides of each PC were a frequent source of tensions and they made for great drama. On the other hand, I'm hesitant to say that this sort of drama should be required. I've had a lot of games that were plenty of fun without that sort of drama.

And yet Geordi's visor got lost or broken in at least one episode. And was the source for drama in several episodes in other ways.

Let's see, a seeing character can get blinded, but a blind character with some sort of workaround shouldn't loose said workaround because... Reasons?
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 25, 2020, 11:32:31 am
Quote from: VisionStorm;1146371
People who take offense to the notion of having their disabilities cured have two disabilities: the one they need cured, and the one that prevents them from wanting to be cured.

And don't make special accommodations for nor enable willful idiots. ;)

Agreed, were they able to cure Asperger's I would jump at the chance, and I'm high functioning. I can't imagine what life is like for those with severe cases of autism.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: jhkim on August 25, 2020, 12:33:15 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146373
And yet Geordi's visor got lost or broken in at least one episode. And was the source for drama in several episodes in other ways.

Let's see, a seeing character can get blinded, but a blind character with some sort of workaround shouldn't loose said workaround because... Reasons?
That's not what I said. It's possible for either Spock to be blinded (as he was) or for Geordi to be blinded (as he was). Spock can be blinded, but his sight isn't treated as "temporary and conditional". Geordi can lose his vision, but then, there are many things that would blind a seeing person would not affect Geordi (including how Spock lost his vision).

Logically, it depends on the specifics of the workaround. Some workarounds are inherent, like Daredevil's super-senses. Some are cybernetically implanted. Some are external devices. A given workaround might be easier or harder to disable than typical human abilities.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2020, 12:59:57 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146374
Agreed, were they able to cure Asperger's I would jump at the chance, and I'm high functioning. I can't imagine what life is like for those with severe cases of autism.

It's more complicated than that, I'm afraid.

You don't speak for all disabled people. Some disabled people take pride in their lives. (https://everydayfeminism.com/2018/05/a-cure-for-ableism/)

Society views people with disabilities as being less deserving of life, which is ableism (https://www.accessliving.org/newsroom/blog/ableism-101/). There are numerous accounts of disabled people being murdered (or allowed to die when they could be saved) under the justification that their disabled life wasn't worth living. Especially filicide. (https://disability-memorial.org/) That's a viewpoint which presents a real and ever present danger to disabled people.

We don't currently have the means to meaningfully treat the overwhelming majority of disabilities, much less sell miracle cures, so trying to force a non-existent cure on disabled people is counterproductive anyway. When we can regenerate whole limbs and functional nervous systems, then we can worry about the ethics of trying to force disabled people to be cured of their disabilities.

Real life is more complicated than "disabled people should be cured."
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 25, 2020, 01:48:55 pm
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1146384
It's more complicated than that, I'm afraid.

You don't speak for all disabled people. Some disabled people take pride in their lives. (https://everydayfeminism.com/2018/05/a-cure-for-ableism/)

Society views people with disabilities as being less deserving of life, which is ableism (https://www.accessliving.org/newsroom/blog/ableism-101/). There are numerous accounts of disabled people being murdered (or allowed to die when they could be saved) under the justification that their disabled life wasn't worth living. Especially filicide. (https://disability-memorial.org/) That's a viewpoint which presents a real and ever present danger to disabled people.

We don't currently have the means to meaningfully treat the overwhelming majority of disabilities, much less sell miracle cures, so trying to force a non-existent cure on disabled people is counterproductive anyway. When we can regenerate whole limbs and functional nervous systems, then we can worry about the ethics of trying to force disabled people to be cured of their disabilities.

Real life is more complicated than "disabled people should be cured."

Nice strawman, think you can beat it?

Edited to add:

But you speak for all disabled people?
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 25, 2020, 04:49:05 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146388
Nice strawman, think you can beat it?

Edited to add:

But you speak for all disabled people?


I wasn't trying to attack you. I'm sorry if you felt attacked.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 25, 2020, 04:55:13 pm
Quote from: jhkim;1146339
Is this for game balance reasons, or for dramatic tension reasons?


I'd say both, to a degree, although more the former than the latter.
 
One of the things I discovered with designing my current project was that making certain disadvantages into Plot Hooks -- personal obstacles that gave experience points during the game when encountered, rather than upfront when taken -- worked better for some problems than for others: drawbacks like Nemesis, Secret, Ostracism and so on made good Plot Hooks because they were inherently story-related and had many different dramatic variations, but making Bad Sight or other physical impairments into Plot Hooks was ultimately just boring, because you can only lose your glasses so many times in a key encounter before it gets dull.

(The reverse of this might be called the "Kryptonite Problem": when your otherwise-unstoppable hero has one major weakness, it shows up in the stories a lot more often than the in-setting fluff suggests it should, because otherwise you have no drama for your hero.)

So perhaps here we have one of the major distinctions: If an impairment workaround is being used primarily for game purposes, the primary tension is over whether the workaround will be un-available in a given encounter. If it's being used primarily for dramatic purposes, the primary tension is over the exceptional requirements imposed on the PC when the workaround is available.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 25, 2020, 05:08:19 pm
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1146419
I wasn't trying to attack you. I'm sorry if you felt attacked.

Another strawman, I didn't said anything about anyone attacking anyone.

Just like I didn't said anything about speaking for others among other stuff you answered to in you anterior strawman.

Back to the gaming theme: IMHO and IME disabled people do not play themselves, just like everyone else.

And a good workaround to any disability in game needs to be believable in game, make sense in game and do not turn the PC into a superhero (unless you're playing superheroes). And as mentioned elsewhere the workaround has to be susceptible of damage just like any part of the PC or it's equipment.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: LiferGamer on August 25, 2020, 10:05:33 pm
Again OSR/D&D type games are just the wrong format for it, I'll fall back on gurps here - if it isn't worth points it's neither an advantage or a disadvantage and therefore it's as important as the color of the characters hair.
In other words it's just that look at me I'm special.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 25, 2020, 11:30:11 pm
Quote from: VisionStorm;1146371
People who take offense to the notion of having their disabilities cured have two disabilities: the one they need cured, and the one that prevents them from wanting to be cured.

And don't make special accommodations for nor enable willful idiots. ;)


Yeah. By these nuts "logic" then no one should wear glasses, or hearing aids. Get thee rid of thine offending wheelchair of ableistness! Sorry, no pacemaker for you. Embrace your impending death! Depressed? No meds for you. Be happy you are depressed!
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 25, 2020, 11:35:35 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146373
And yet Geordi's visor got lost or broken in at least one episode. And was the source for drama in several episodes in other ways.

Let's see, a seeing character can get blinded, but a blind character with some sort of workaround shouldn't loose said workaround because... Reasons?

Lets not forget that Geordi's visor also...

A: Was painful to wear.
B: Did not allow him to see as a normal person till much later in the series.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 25, 2020, 11:43:42 pm
Quote from: Omega;1146477
Lets not forget that Geordi's visor also...

A: Was painful to wear.
B: Did not allow him to see as a normal person till much later in the series.

Shhhhhhhh You're breaking the narrative
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: LiferGamer on August 25, 2020, 11:54:16 pm
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1146384
It's more complicated than that, I'm afraid.

You don't speak for all disabled people. Some disabled people take pride in their lives. (https://everydayfeminism.com/2018/05/a-cure-for-ableism/)

Society views people with disabilities as being less deserving of life, which is ableism (https://www.accessliving.org/newsroom/blog/ableism-101/). There are numerous accounts of disabled people being murdered (or allowed to die when they could be saved) under the justification that their disabled life wasn't worth living. Especially filicide. (https://disability-memorial.org/) That's a viewpoint which presents a real and ever present danger to disabled people.

We don't currently have the means to meaningfully treat the overwhelming majority of disabilities, much less sell miracle cures, so trying to force a non-existent cure on disabled people is counterproductive anyway. When we can regenerate whole limbs and functional nervous systems, then we can worry about the ethics of trying to force disabled people to be cured of their disabilities.

Real life is more complicated than "disabled people should be cured."


This isn't a discussion about real life.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe the point is, in a setting where you can be cured, why would you choose not to be?
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2020, 12:15:49 am
Quote from: LiferGamer;1146482
This isn't a discussion about real life.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe the point is, in a setting where you can be cured, why would you choose not to be?

ElfGames make you worship Satan morphed into ElfGames make you an istophobe and kill disabled people.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 26, 2020, 12:23:09 am
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1146384
It's more complicated than that, I'm afraid.

You don't speak for all disabled people. Some disabled people take pride in their lives. (https://everydayfeminism.com/2018/05/a-cure-for-ableism/)

There is a word for this... what is it? Oh yeah. Brainwashing.

Odds are some of the ones saying stuff like this were born that way. I touched on this in an older thread but will repeat it here for those of you who arent aware.

There is a huge difference between being born disabled and being rendered disabled. And the reactions for those rendered disabled can be much akin to CP2020's cyberpsychosis. Some people simply can not take being disabled and unfortunately some freak out.

Being born disabled is a massive advantage and for many of us its effectively a natural workaround as we do not have to adjust. This is our lives. We tend to be fairly well adapted to our conditions. Here is where you most likely get people saying its ok to be disabled. Because to them they essentially arent. Or are suffering from a form of impairment that allows them to still function normally, or close enough.

Personal example: I've never known a world that isnt constantly in motion. I am very well adjusted to that fact to the point that it effectively doesnt effect me except when Im going through periods where its more pronounced. Or in cases where high balance skills are required. Tightrope walker is not one of my job descriptions. heh.

Im not even sure how that would fit into game terms.

But I'd NEVER tell someone that they have to accept being disabled and that looking for a cure is wrong. And us 'adjusted' should NEVER tell anyone who has had a disability inflicted on them that they should accept it and not look for cures.

All that said. It is perfectly fine to be perfectly fine with your disability.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 26, 2020, 12:31:07 am
Quote from: LiferGamer;1146469
Again OSR/D&D type games are just the wrong format for it, I'll fall back on gurps here - if it isn't worth points it's neither an advantage or a disadvantage and therefore it's as important as the color of the characters hair.
In other words it's just that look at me I'm special.

Not necessarily.

For some it is adding a challenge, or potential challenge. Some players love this stuff. They want challenges and problems to overcome.

Unfortunately for others its just min/maxing points they think will never impact the character. And are often right as most DMs do not know how to handle these things and tend to ignore them after. Its one of the bigger reasons to consider not having disabilities in your system and something I put some thought into before writing my book and publishing it.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Shasarak on August 26, 2020, 12:33:59 am
Quote from: Omega;1146476
Depressed? No meds for you. Be happy you are depressed!


That may actually work better then you think.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 26, 2020, 12:46:26 am
Quote from: LiferGamer;1146482
This isn't a discussion about real life.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe the point is, in a setting where you can be cured, why would you choose not to be?

Easiest reason is that the character sees their disability as an advantage somehow. A blind person living with a Medusa would likely not want to be cured.

The other reason might be they have some compensation sense, or power that they would lose if they were cured. This pops up more often in superhero settings.

Or the really weird examples like I get to enjoy in real life. Were I cured today. Id have the problem that Im really adjusted to my problem. Id have to now adjust to that. And it can take a long time. Im currently looking at cures for various problems and this was mentioned right off by the doctors so its a known thing apparently. One of my other disabilities medical science has not yet caught up with solving.

On the other hand magic or super science might be able to both cure a person and instantly adjust them to being normal.

Which brings up the interesting question.

Just how holistic is a cure in say D&D? Or even from edition to edition. Do you get a free adjustment to being cured? I assume Gurps has this covered from multiple angles. What about Cyberpunk 2020? I do not recall Shadowrun for example ever touching on adjustment phases.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 26, 2020, 12:59:10 am
Quote from: Shasarak;1146495
That may actually work better then you think.

I know at least two people who prefer being depressed to being on meds. And two who very much do not want to be off the meds. I also know two who are not on meds that really the hell should be. (Being on Suicide Watch is the diametric opposite of fun.)
Im not sure a person suffering depression could ever be really ok with that. But odds are some can adjust. Possibly really well. Something worth researching for me to do now.

I suspect it loops around again to people who are adjusted to their disability/s. And the level of adjustment.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: RollingBones on August 26, 2020, 12:59:37 am
Quote from: Omega;1146494
Not necessarily.

For some it is adding a challenge, or potential challenge. Some players love this stuff. They want challenges and problems to overcome.

Unfortunately for others its just min/maxing points they think will never impact the character. And are often right as most DMs do not know how to handle these things and tend to ignore them after. Its one of the bigger reasons to consider not having disabilities in your system and something I put some thought into before writing my book and publishing it.

I'd be interested in more detail of your thought process on the 'right' way to effectively  include disabilities in a system (as opposed to how to include them in specific scenarios, or at the table). I'm at that point now, with a merits & flaws kind of system, and getting the balance is quite tricky. For instance, I have paraplegia listed as a 5 point disadvantage, but elsewhere I have a CoC style one-shot in a 1930's historic setting.

Although a paraplegic character might not be inconceivable  (actually a tidy idea for a researcher type), they're going to be almost unplayable in this scenario (ie. Hunted though a muddy natural forest in the middle of a storm, then up and down stairs in an old building). The entire focus of the game would shift from investigating the horror, to moving the disabled character. I know some would suggest I, as the writer, am the one creating the problem, but rewriting the module to present a too conveniently accessible world, or just hand-waving away any difficulties, flies in the face of verisimilitude (there's that word again).

Historic settings produce a quite different challenge to fantasy settings.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 26, 2020, 01:08:58 am
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146489
ElfGames make you worship Satan morphed into ElfGames make you an istophobe and kill disabled people.

Im afraid of satanists elfs so I sacrificed these cripples to god? er... Tree God?

ahem.

But this is exactly what we warned would happen when this latest iteration of this nuttery started. Sure enough it is again hopping from one thing to another like the disease it is. "Think of the Children! Think of the Women! Think of the LGBT! Think of the Minorities! Think of the Cripples!" Eventually it will come around to "Think of the Adults! Think of the Men! Think of the Straight!" and so on till it comes around again.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2020, 01:11:55 am
Quote from: Omega;1146502
Im afraid of satanists elfs so I sacrificed these cripples to god? er... Tree God?

ahem.

But this is exactly what we warned would happen when this latest iteration of this nuttery started. Sure enough it is again hopping from one thing to another like the disease it is. "Think of the Children! Think of the Women! Think of the LGBT! Think of the Minorities! Think of the Cripples!" Eventually it will come around to "Think of the Adults! Think of the Men! Think of the Straight!" and so on till it comes around again.

I bet you a beer it will never come around to "Think of the Adults! Think of the Men! Think of the Straight!" unless it is to further demonize them, which they are already doing IMHO.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 26, 2020, 01:23:21 am
Quote from: RollingBones;1146500
I'd be interested in more detail of your thought process on the 'right' way to effectively  include disabilities in a system (as opposed to how to include them in specific scenarios, or at the table). I'm at that point now, with a merits & flaws kind of system, and getting the balance is quite tricky. For instance, I have paraplegia listed as a 5 point disadvantage, but elsewhere I have a CoC style one-shot in a 1930's historic setting.

Although a paraplegic character might not be inconceivable  (actually a tidy idea for a researcher type), they're going to be almost unplayable in this scenario (ie. Hunted though a muddy natural forest in the middle of a storm, then up and down stairs in an old building). The entire focus of the game would shift from investigating the horror, to moving the disabled character. I know some would suggest I, as the writer, am the one creating the problem, but rewriting the module to present a too conveniently accessible world, or just hand-waving away any difficulties, flies in the face of verisimilitude (there's that word again).

Historic settings produce a quite different challenge to fantasy settings.

1: In my own system I left it really abstract as theres so much variance and granularity doesnt really add a whole lot after a point. Its easier to just give examples of levels of impairment and let the player come up with what they think fits that level. Same with any workarounds. There are so may ways to approach these things.

But I kept this all fairly low on points gained for chargen to curb any thoughts of min/maxing or char-opping. The problems your character is getting far outweigh the points gained.

2: As noted at the start of the thread, setting is everything when dealing with disabilities. Some settings are going to make disabled characters just short of impossible. Or at the very least alot of hassle to make even remotely viable.

One bemusing thing though is that of all things. A blind investigator in a Call of Cthulhu type setting, where seeing horrible things tends to be a really bad idea, is going to be practically immune to any SAN loss that relies only on seeing (or touching) something icky. Unfortunately in CoC. Hearing some horrible things can cause SAN loss to so dont think you are Cthulhuproof. heh-heh.

But a character totally incapable of self movement is going to be really tricky to pull of. Not impossible. Just really tricky without magic. And if it were a totally mundane setting like Gangbusters then its going to indeed be really hard to pull off. But not impossible.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 26, 2020, 01:32:30 am
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146503
I bet you a beer it will never come around to "Think of the Adults! Think of the Men! Think of the Straight!" unless it is to further demonize them, which they are already doing IMHO.

It has before. So odds are it will again. They will latch onto any resistance and egg them on until the time is right to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-infest the puritans, the women, the gays, the blacks, the handicapped, etc.

They wiil help you only till its time to demonize you. "Man those handicapped people are unreasoning jerks! Allways demanding representation. Never satisfied with representation. Not allowing anyone to act a role even! Trying to force their ways on normal people! They even want to prevent seeking cures!" Seen it before. (to a lesser extent.) Seeing it again. And unfortunately will likely see it again.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: LiferGamer on August 26, 2020, 01:41:42 am
Quote from: Omega;1146499
I know at least two people who prefer being depressed to being on meds. And two who very much do not want to be off the meds. I also know two who are not on meds that really the hell should be. (Being on Suicide Watch is the diametric opposite of fun.)
Im not sure a person suffering depression could ever be really ok with that. But odds are some can adjust. Possibly really well. Something worth researching for me to do now.

I suspect it loops around again to people who are adjusted to their disability/s. And the level of adjustment.


Without going into detail, when I'm on the anti-depressants that 'work' I'm zoned out and fuzzy.  I hate the feeling, and my personality is all 'wrong'; It's not my place to advocate it one way or the other, but I choose to NOT take them.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: RollingBones on August 26, 2020, 02:42:41 am
Quote from: Omega;1146504
1: In my own system I left it really abstract as theres so much variance and granularity doesnt really add a whole lot after a point. Its easier to just give examples of levels of impairment and let the player come up with what they think fits that level. Same with any workarounds. There are so may ways to approach these things.

But I kept this all fairly low on points gained for chargen to curb any thoughts of min/maxing or char-opping. The problems your character is getting far outweigh the points gained.


Thanks, the way I have structured chargen, points gained from 'flaws' can only be used to buy 'merits', not to directly boost stats. I also set merits slightly more expensive than the credit from an equivalent flaw. Hopefully that'll disrupt power gaming it. I might have to take a step back and see how I might be able to , as you say, abstract it a bit further, and see if that works better. Some things definitely get too granular. I haven't, for instance, bothered with Colour-Blindness because it wouldn't even be worth 1 point. Same with something like Tinnitus, though a severe case could make hearing or focus checks interesting, especially in a game with firearms. Cheers.

Quote from: Omega;1146504
One bemusing thing though is that of all things. A blind investigator in a Call of Cthulhu type setting, where seeing horrible things tends to be a really bad idea, is going to be practically immune to any SAN loss that relies only on seeing (or touching) something icky. Unfortunately in CoC. Hearing some horrible things can cause SAN loss to so dont think you are Cthulhuproof. heh-heh.


Ha! Yep, a blind character might make it through with their sanity mostly intact, but they're going to struggle with the endless 'spot hidden' rolls in a Chaosium CoC game. Just try finding a braille edition of the Pnakotic Manuscripts! A certain audiobook edition of the Necronomicon could play a role though...
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 26, 2020, 08:10:35 am
Quote from: RollingBones;1146516

Ha! Yep, a blind character might make it through with their sanity mostly intact, but they're going to struggle with the endless 'spot hidden' rolls in a Chaosium CoC game. Just try finding a braille edition of the Pnakotic Manuscripts! A certain audiobook edition of the Necronomicon could play a role though...

Considering the deleterious effects of reading such manuscripts, I'm not quite seeing the problem here...

In the wake of the infamous tale of Old Man Henderson, I'd also allow for temporary disabilities to cushion the blows of eldritch horror. You know, like being stoned off your ass when the shoggoth crawls out of the sink.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 27, 2020, 03:09:40 am
Quote from: LiferGamer;1146509
Without going into detail, when I'm on the anti-depressants that 'work' I'm zoned out and fuzzy.  I hate the feeling, and my personality is all 'wrong'; It's not my place to advocate it one way or the other, but I choose to NOT take them.

Exactly. I know at least two people who feel that way as well. But also two who feel alot better and more functional when on then when off. Probably due to type and medication?

Which brings up another issue. One persons cure might not work for someone else. Or make things worse. Or negate the problem only to introduce a new one.

Like how some people can not deal with prosthetic limbs for various reasons.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on August 27, 2020, 03:19:32 am
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1146533
Considering the deleterious effects of reading such manuscripts, I'm not quite seeing the problem here...

In the wake of the infamous tale of Old Man Henderson, I'd also allow for temporary disabilities to cushion the blows of eldritch horror. You know, like being stoned off your ass when the shoggoth crawls out of the sink.

Yes. Though I know of one case were being drunk did not help in the end. I suspect it deadened the initial horror. But it was drinking that got them into the horror in the first place.

But this actually gets touched on in some of Lovecrafts works where certain drugs allow the mind to expand enough that even the worst of the sanity wrecking things can be handled to some degree. Pretty sure CoC has a couple of sanity-proofing potions in there somewhere.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: tenbones on August 27, 2020, 10:26:47 am
There are no physical or mental disabilities in RPG's that can't be overcome in the game or be compensated for.

There are no physical or mental disabilities that will be overcome by playing RPG's.

There are no RPG companies that are not susceptible to the people screaming with mental disabilities that may also have physical disabilities, but not exclusively so.

Those that overcome this, can have my money.
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: LiferGamer on August 27, 2020, 01:01:20 pm
Quote from: tenbones;1146664
There are no physical or mental disabilities in RPG's that can't be overcome in the game or be compensated for.

There are no physical or mental disabilities that will be overcome by playing RPG's.

There are no RPG companies that are not susceptible to the people screaming with mental disabilities that may also have physical disabilities, but not exclusively so.

Those that overcome this, can have my money.

Agreed on all points.  Now go write about Fantasycraft.  ;)
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: tenbones on August 27, 2020, 05:44:31 pm
Quote from: LiferGamer;1146684
Agreed on all points.  Now go write about Fantasycraft.  ;)

/shakes fist!

It's coming!
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Spinachcat on August 27, 2020, 07:45:04 pm
Quote from: Shasarak;1146310
I think, who are the illegally disabled?


Cripples, because they're all Crips and hate the Bloods.



Quote from: tenbones;1146664
There are no RPG companies that are not susceptible to the people screaming with mental disabilities that may also have physical disabilities, but not exclusively so.


Palladium!!! They are NOT susceptible to these clowns.

The most devoted fans can't convince them to do a system cleanup. What chance do the Twatter freaks have against the Unmoving Wall of Kevin???
Title: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on September 01, 2020, 05:56:44 am
While looking at some old wheelchairs another idea came to mind for a conveyance like this.

A rickshaw or similar.  

Could be pulled by a hireling. Or a summoned monster like a skeleton. Or even a variation on the phantom steed. Or if Artificer is an option, the steel defender could pull it. Animate object might work as well.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: LiferGamer on September 01, 2020, 11:09:33 pm
Putting aside all the 'should' it be in the game, my other beef is I can't stand Flinstones campaign worlds.


There are so many more interesting ideas than making your game '21st century but with swords and horses instead of guns and cars.'
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on September 02, 2020, 07:50:49 am
While doing research it turned out that proto wheelchairs have been around since roman times apparently and by the 5th century China had some proto-wheelchairs as well. Some early ones were akin to a sort of reverse rickshaw with the porter in back rather than in front. So guess my fantasy idea was not too far the actual implementation.
But oddly wheelchairs as we know them did not really appear on the scene till something like the 15th century. One of the 15th century designs noted used little coaster type wheels which seem to me to be impractical even for most semi-modern cities. Probably why they moved to the larger central wheel. That and the person in it can move themselves with the right arrangement.
Interestingly much the same story for eyeglasses. Proto versions go back to the roman era and we start to see more recognizable forms around the 12th century.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on September 09, 2020, 11:13:46 am
Something that was touched on in another thread is the issue of just how much access people have, or dont have, to restorative magic. That can be a big factor in seeking workarounds when theres no recourse.
Example: In BX D&D there is no regeneration spell. The only thing existing is the Ring of Regeneration. And fairly rare too with a mere 2% chance of showing up in random treasure rolls for rings which themselves have only a 5% chance.
AD&D on the other hand has various curative magics. But several of the better ones require the higher levels to cast and finding NPCs to cast said spells may be few and far between. Or far too costly for the common folk or low level adventurers.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on September 26, 2020, 08:22:32 pm
ok this is really painfull to type so please excuse the occasional lack of puntuation.
Finally out of ER after 5 hours of staring at the ceiling unable to move.
Why?
because was in a really bad biking accident. Probably the equivalent of falling off a horse at gallop in fantasy terms. Last thing remember was hitting the fence. Eventually come to half way back on the bike path... and can not move... just pain and numbness combined...
Luckily a friend was biking with me and more luckily he was behind me and while mostly unable to help me directly, was able to call my roommate fore help, who got a ride out as close as could as I crashed in the middle of nowhere.
Helmet I had just bought the other day probably saved me.

Meanwhile got back the use of my legs, but hands were totally useless at first, but gradually got bacl use of a few fingers on one hand. Got to standing and tried to stagger to a meeting point using the bike as a support, but it was a mess so roommate manhandled it to the ride a mile off while I staggered along.

Get to ER and just short of full body x-rays. Somehow succeeded in not breaking or fracturing any bones and was eventually released. They didnt check for muscle or other damage. But no bones broke.
necks in a cast for a while and can barely use hands. just typing this out is an ordeal. My head and face actually looks worse than my hands.

if id been alone or my friend ahead of me and not realized Id wrecked that would have been really hell.
So right now in getting to see first hand, no pun intended, what its like to lose most of the use of your hands.
Eating is a trial, getting dressed is a trial, and holding things is a trial to pretty much impossible.Sleep? with this sort of pain? aint happening. Kiss goodby any short or long rests. Spells with somatic components? aint happening. Cant even hold a practice bokken a player got for me. Getting into armour with straps and such aint happening. For a modern setting guns are out, can noty hold a nerf gun or pull the trigger. And for more modern or futuristic, using a keyboard is an ordeal and really slow going.

So there you go. Wear a damn helmet!

addendum: and all this happened because I am handicapped and it kicked in at the worst possible time, causing me to crash.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: SHARK on September 27, 2020, 09:28:19 pm

Greetings!


Damn, Omega! That sounds like a terrible experience! Well, as you alluded to, the situation could have been far worse for you. Thankfully, you have no broken bones and such. I hope that your recovery goes well, Omega!


Perhaps you may be able to enjoy some reading while you recuperate! I always enjoy diving into some good books! ;D


Semper Fidelis,


SHARK
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on September 28, 2020, 01:12:41 am
Thanks. The worst was that initial waking up to being paralyzed.
right now I cant even hold a mug hardly. got use of one finger and thumb on each hand that is not painfull. The rest are still painfull even to touch. Physical book probably not going to work. But been wanting to read Dream Park for a while now as have an early print but never time to read it.
Another insight. with hands disabled like this even getting up off the ground can be an ordeal. Scribing scrolls will be right out too.
addendum: sent a big thank you to shwinn for making that helmet!
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Ravenswing on September 28, 2020, 07:48:58 am
I assume Gurps has this covered from multiple angles.
Indeed.  One can pretty much take any Disadvantage that's mirrored in nature, all the way to being blind, a quadriplegic and terminally ill.  One factor is that any one of these disads carries a high enough negative cost to being pretty much the only disad one can have in many campaigns.  Another is that GURPS has a basic principle: a disadvantage that doesn't disadvantage you is not worth points.  Sure, Daredevil's senses have their drawbacks, but his "vision" isn't disrupted by a 250,000 candlepower light going off in his face.  A paraplegic in an otherwise-reliable float chair (or fantasy equivalent) might be subject to having the gizmo disrupted, but hit me with a low cross-block and I'm not moving any faster. 
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: sureshot on September 28, 2020, 10:17:35 am
The sad part is not only would Omega be accused of being Abelist by the rpg SJW crowd they would call for doxxing him and losing his job.


A few years ago I accidentally dropped boiling water on my upper left leg. A little more to the right and lets just say second degree burn on the upper leg is not fun. Getting it on the balls would have been worse. All I could do was walk on crutches and stay off my leg. Even then because the muscles needed to regenerate I did not do much movement UI fell on my face at one point. A week after being told to slowly incorporate I decide to try and play a game of Soccer I start to run and my leg gives out. I needed more time. Unlike Omega I was not in as much pain yet if I was part of an actual adventuring group in D&D. No adventuring happening no matter what the SJW gamers say.   
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Ravenswing on September 28, 2020, 02:57:18 pm
The sad part is not only would Omega be accused of being Abelist by the rpg SJW crowd they would call for doxxing him and losing his job.
Got a question, for what it's worth.  Of course, Everyone Knows that the RPG SJWs are everywhere, lurking in the corner of every gaming store and club with burning eyes, ready to point the finger at you and scream "SINNER!!!"

But let's bring a dose of reality into this.  How many of you have actually ever had this happen, outside of (hell, even within) Internet forums?  Anyone actually had one of your fellow players dox you and cause you to lose your job over something like this?

No, I didn't think so.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 28, 2020, 03:33:13 pm
The sad part is not only would Omega be accused of being Abelist by the rpg SJW crowd they would call for doxxing him and losing his job.
Got a question, for what it's worth.  Of course, Everyone Knows that the RPG SJWs are everywhere, lurking in the corner of every gaming store and club with burning eyes, ready to point the finger at you and scream "SINNER!!!"

But let's bring a dose of reality into this.  How many of you have actually ever had this happen, outside of (hell, even within) Internet forums?  Anyone actually had one of your fellow players dox you and cause you to lose your job over something like this?

No, I didn't think so.
That's adorable. Just because it hasn't happened to any of US means it's not really an issue.


Is that what you're saying?

Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Ravenswing on September 28, 2020, 04:35:50 pm
That's adorable. Just because it hasn't happened to any of US means it's not really an issue.
Is that what you're saying?

Your reply is adorable.  Is that what I'm saying?  Mmhmm, it sure is.  If you can come up with so much as one attested and verifiable case of that happening, that's still about a drop in a bucket in the millions of RPGers out there.  Not really an issue.

I don't believe you can come up with one.  With Gamergate as the example that proves the rule, the serious lynch mobs -- as opposed to grumblers just whinging on the interwebs -- are almost always the reactionaries.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: SHARK on September 28, 2020, 04:50:31 pm

Greetings!


Hmmm...well, "Cancel Culture" has affected many people in many industries beyond gaming--see the Boeing executive for one real-world example, as well as the editor chick from the New York Times that resigned from her being hounded, harassed, and besmirched because she didn't swallow the SJW Koolaid enough.


Within our hobby, specifically, yeah. Alexander Macris, RPG Pundit, Zak Smith, James Raggi, Venger Satanis, hell, even Mike Mearls--have all been targeted for destruction and social death by the SJW mobs for various alleged sins. The fact that most of these men have *avoided* being thoroughly destroyed and having their reputations and careers ruined isn't for lack of effort or desire on the part of the SJW mobs, who have viciously and loudly worked for just such an outcome.


So, yeah, being doxed, targeted for harassment, public shaming and otherwise socially and professionally destroyed is a very real danger, even within the hobby of roleplaying games.


Semper Fidelis,


SHARK
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on September 28, 2020, 06:58:27 pm
The sad part is not only would Omega be accused of being Abelist by the rpg SJW crowd they would call for doxxing him and losing his job.
Got a question, for what it's worth.  Of course, Everyone Knows that the RPG SJWs are everywhere, lurking in the corner of every gaming store and club with burning eyes, ready to point the finger at you and scream "SINNER!!!"

But let's bring a dose of reality into this.  How many of you have actually ever had this happen, outside of (hell, even within) Internet forums?  Anyone actually had one of your fellow players dox you and cause you to lose your job over something like this?

No, I didn't think so.
not in the gaming circles. But in the art circles seen it done a several times now. And its been done in board gaming now at least once. Probably more.

These sociopaths hide online and attack mostly from online. So far, far as i know, the instances of this cult going after people at cons or stores has been few and far between. to my knowledge so far no instances of the disabled getting in on the act. So far.

that sort of stupid seems, so far, to be limited to going after movies and TV shows and is not a new thing at all.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Omega on September 28, 2020, 07:01:49 pm

So, yeah, being doxed, targeted for harassment, public shaming and otherwise socially and professionally destroyed is a very real danger, even within the hobby of roleplaying games.
think raven meant instances in the disabled circles.
See my comment above on that matter.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: SHARK on September 28, 2020, 07:24:15 pm


So, yeah, being doxed, targeted for harassment, public shaming and otherwise socially and professionally destroyed is a very real danger, even within the hobby of roleplaying games.
think raven meant instances in the disabled circles.
See my comment above on that matter.


Greetings!


Hi there, Omega! Ok, my apologies then for any misunderstanding on my part. I admit, as you also explain, there hasn't been any specifically disabled person in gaming targeted, but I certainly wouldn't put it past the SJW nut mobs to do, if any disabled person was to say anything they contrived as "hate speech" or whatever. We've seen them target virtually anyone that doesn't embrace the SJW dogma, often on the most outlandish of interpretations or mental gymnastics based upon what someone has said or written. You know how deeply irrational and nutty these kinds of people are nowadays! ;D


Semper Fidelis,


SHARK
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 28, 2020, 09:45:34 pm
Your reply is adorable.  Is that what I'm saying?  Mmhmm, it sure is.  If you can come up with so much as one attested and verifiable case of that happening, that's still about a drop in a bucket in the millions of RPGers out there.  Not really an issue.

I don't believe you can come up with one.  With Gamergate as the example that proves the rule, the serious lynch mobs -- as opposed to grumblers just whinging on the interwebs -- are almost always the reactionaries.

Richard Meyer would like to talk to you (granted, that's comics, not gaming).


Shall we discuss Zak Sabbath? I don't know if he's still knocking around here, but considering he wrung a court-ordered apology out of one of his detractors, I'd call that 'verifiable'.
Title: Re: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
Post by: sureshot on September 29, 2020, 10:13:03 am

Got a question, for what it's worth.  Of course, Everyone Knows that the RPG SJWs are everywhere, lurking in the corner of every gaming store and club with burning eyes, ready to point the finger at you and scream "SINNER!!!"

But let's bring a dose of reality into this.  How many of you have actually ever had this happen, outside of (hell, even within) Internet forums?  Anyone actually had one of your fellow players dox you and cause you to lose your job over something like this?

No, I didn't think so.


Rosanne Barr is another example where she said something truly stupid and cancel culture ruined her career. Where James Gunn posted some really fucked pedophilic tweets. Unlike Barr being a Leftist and they welcomed him back with open arms. I did not happen to me no yet because it has not happened to me does not mean it never happened to anyone else.