I understand your point (and I was talking about ruining the inmate's life, not yours ), and you also make mine - you will ALWAYS have some innocent people punished for something that someone else did. There is no such thing as a perfect system, unfortunately, despite what some may aspire to. We can try to be as accurate as possible, but we can't bring the whole thing to a grinding halt until we are perfect. And, again, I don't think that a) people who sold pot ought to be in jail or b) even if they are, they shouldn't be able to play D&D. I reserved that for the hard-core criminals.

So your point is:

No DnD in High Security Prisons!

Is that right? I can live with that

Quote from: Werekoala;357924Simlasa: There are plenty of other societies to choose from that are much cushier in regards to their treatment of criminals. If this one distresses you so much, you still have enough freedom left to pick one that suits you better. Perhaps Uruguay.

Howsabout you and your ilk leave my country, go find someplace more in keeping with your brand of 'humanity'... let us get on with moving our society into the modern world.

I don't get the concept that a person stops being human and deserving of compassion the moment they commit a crime... and that only really seems to go for the ones who get caught, and can't afford to keep themselves out of jail.
We've all had evil moments, and places where a short step to the right would have landed us in the shoes of the condemned.

I also don't see why playing an RPG is any worse than whatever else a prisoner might be doing to while away the time... or how it's any more of a privilege  than TV, weight rooms, basketball courts or books.

Quote from: Callisto;357961So your point is:

No DnD in High Security Prisons!

Is that right? I can live with that

Think you got it in one, Callisto.

Oh and addressed to two or three other posters: We're not talking about people in prison for pot or other drugs - we're talking THIS particular case of a convicted murderer.

Don't think of me as Draconian - I don't believe marijuana crimes ( the light/minor crimes) should get a person thrown in prison. - mandatory rehab clinics, yeah sure that might work.

For that matter, prostitution should also be legalized.

However - the OP linked story was about an extremely violent murderer. This assailant killed his victim in a partularly extreme way.  So yeah, no games for him. He made his choice to cut himself off from humanity when he did what he did.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;357973For that matter, prostitution should also be legalized.

Holy fuckballs. I think I just agreed with Koltar. I'm scared too kids.

Quote from: Simlasa;357962Howsabout you and your ilk leave my country, go find someplace more in keeping with your brand of 'humanity'... let us get on with moving our society into the modern world.

Nope, sorry, you're the one with the problem. Historically, it's the malcontents that move along, not those who prefer the old way of doing things. Except, of course, there's no frontier anymore, but that's another subject.

Let's not make this a personal pissing match - I know that a lot of the progressive and enlightened folks have all kinds of reasons for wanting to sympathize with criminals and murderers - look at how celebrities like to stand on the side of murderers like H. Rap Brown, or dictators like Hugo Chavez for example. For the most part, I think it stems from a STATED desire to prove how thoughtful and empathetic you are, as opposed to knuckle-draggers who want to bring back Old Sparky and the Inquisition, but in reality its just a misdirected example of teen-angsty desire to stick a finger in mom and dad's (i.e. society's) eye.

You and I disagree - and you can have your beliefs, and work to change the system all you want. That's your right, in this country at least. It's my right to oppose you, and it doesn't make me some kind of caveman, despite your rhetoric.

Quote from: Koltar;357973Oh and addressed to two or three other posters: We're not talking about people in prison for pot or other drugs - we're talking THIS particular case of a convicted murderer.

Don't think of me as Draconian - I don't believe marijuana crimes ( the light/minor crimes) should get a person thrown in prison. - mandatory rehab clinics, yeah sure that might work.

For that matter, prostitution should also be legalized.

However - the OP linked story was about an extremely violent murderer. This assailant killed his victim in a partularly extreme way.  So yeah, no games for him. He made his choice to cut himself off from humanity when he did what he did.

I think this may be a miscommunication.  The OP linked story was about a murderer who was legally challenging a prison-wide rule against fantasy games.  Apparently some took the topic to be that particular prisoner, while others took the topic to be the general ban on fantasy games.  

(Also, I don't see that his murder weapon is relevant.  It sounds like you're implying that a murderer who used, say, poison might be allowed to play games, while one who used a sledgehammer should not.  Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but that was my impression.)

Quote from: Werekoala;357976Let's not make this a personal pissing match -

Take the high ground then proceed to blather on with generalizing insults... that's class.

But yeah, I'm done wasting typeage on you too.

Quote(Also, I don't see that his murder weapon is relevant. It sounds like you're implying that a murderer who used, say, poison might be allowed to play games, while one who used a sledgehammer should not. Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but that was my impression.)

I didn't see how the method of murder was relevant either...
What about the white collar guys in minimum security prisons who ruined the lives of hundreds of people through fraud and banking scams... since they didn't use a hammer it's fine for them to play whatever games they want?

Quote from: Simlasa;357995Take the high ground then proceed to blather on with generalizing insults... that's class.

But yeah, I'm done wasting typeage on you too.

My opinions (hence "I think..." which is what I stated) are not insults, they're my perceptions of, and theory as to the reasons for, the behavior of others - not even necessarily you specifically. This matter is not scientific, it is all based on feelings and personal opinions. That's why these kind of things never end well. I would much prefer that there be no hard feelings in all this, so I'm sorry if I came across as a dick. I'm good at it.

As to white-collar criminals as opposed to violent offenders - no, I say they should all be treated the same. Country-club prisons for people like Madoff are a travesty. Either make them all country clubs, or all of them Sing-Sing. The problem with that, of course, is that the people who make the laws are not generally gang-bangers, but rich lawyers, and they'd prefer their Appletinis not be sullied by using dehydrated apple juice, just in case they get caught someday.

No worries, no hard feelings... how can I be angry at such a cute little marsupial. I was just enjoying being obstinate... so I apologize for my raised hackles.

'Appletinis'... gah!

Although I'm glad that this didn't development into a pissing match between werekoala and simlasa, I still say, fuck you werekoala, about the way you think about "progressive and enlightened" types. I guess at the end of the day, you are not the only one whose good at being a dick.

The death penalty is an emotional issue. Honestly, killing someone with a sledge hammer doesn't really push my buttons. My own personal buttons are people who harm (esp sexually) women and children. But, the death penalty wasn't really my point in my response to Ed. My point was if we are going to keep people behind bars, rehabilitation should be the goal. I understand that this isn't really the issue of the thread.

A couple of things though. I do agree with werekoala with regards to the drug issue. (Drug sale being a capital punishment offense in my neck of the woods). Also the treatment of white collar and non white collar criminals - although I don't want prisons to be hellholes like Sing Sing - I'd much rather the emphasis be on rehabilitation.

As for D&D for hard core prisoners serving a life sentence or on death row. I don't really have a problem with it. In the former, they are gonna' get whacked anyways and in the latter they are spending their life behind bars. I still think luxuries such as recreational activities should be earned.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;358029Although I'm glad that this didn't development into a pissing match between werekoala and simlasa, I still say, fuck you werekoala, about the way you think about "progressive and enlightened" types. I guess at the end of the day, you are not the only one whose good at being a dick.

 *snip*

I do agree with werekoala with regards to the drug issue. (Drug sale being a capital punishment offense in my neck of the woods).

Yeah, well fuck you too buddy. :rant:

Also, what's your neck of the woods?

Quote from: David R;358029Although I'm glad that this didn't development into a pissing match between werekoala and simlasa, I still say, fuck you werekoala, about the way you think about "progressive and enlightened" types. I guess at the end of the day, you are not the only one whose good at being a dick.

The death penalty is an emotional issue. Honestly, killing someone with a sledge hammer doesn't really push my buttons. My own personal buttons are people who harm (esp sexually) women and children. But, the death penaly wasn''t really my point in my response to Ed. My point was if we are going to keep people behind bars, rehabilitation should be the goal. I understand that this isn't really the issue of the thread.

A couple of things though. I do agree with werekoala with regards to the drug issue. (Drug sale being a capital punishment offense in my neck of the woods). Also the treatment of white collar and non white collar criminals - although I don't want prisons to be hellholes like Sing Sing - I'd much rather the emphasis be on rehabilitation.

As for D&D for hard core prisoners serving a life sentence or on death row. I don't really have a problem with it. In the former, they are gonna' get whacked anyways and in the latter they are spending their life behind bars. I still think luxuries such as recreational activities should be earned.

Regards,
David R

David, I agree that rehabilitation should be the goal of prison. However, I also believe that there are criminals who cannot be rehabilitated - sexual predators are notorious for being repeat offenders. In those cases, either a death penalty or life imprisonment seems to be the best option. Making their sentence an actual punishment (preferably not an arbitrary punishment like this case where the guy's D&D game was taken away without substantial reason) does not seem to be too cruel or unusual to me.

Quote from: Werekoala;358033Yeah, well fuck you too buddy. :rant:

Also, what's your neck of the woods?

Malaysia.

(Get caught with a certain amount of pot (for instance) and you get perished)

Edit: Jeff, I agree with you. I'm mean I don't think taking away this guy's D&D is cruel and unusual punishment and I don't think prison life should be comfortable.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;358035Malaysia.

(Get caught with a certain amount of pot (for instance) and you get perished.

Wow, guess I must have missed that somewhere. Whatcha doin' in Malaysia? Also, remind me not to go there for drugs and hookers anytime soon.