Quote from: Koltar;357802He lost his rights when he committed a viloent crime against a fellow human being.

I'm with pseudoephedrine on this but I do see where you're coming from. Society has already punished these guys. IME prisoners are a violent manipulative bunch living in a (prison) system that encourages such behaviour. I do believe that the goal should be rehabilitation, something that is attempted most times in a halfhearted manner. Whatever luxuries a prisoner gets should be earned by good behaviour.

Regards,
David R

David R.,

Did you notice that he was in prison for life?
Probably because Wisconsin doesn't have the death penalty.

His crime was murdering his sister's boyfriend by bludgeoning him to death.

Thats particularly violent.

It wasn't defending his sister by shooting one shot from a handgun. It was bludgeoning by sledgehammer - that means repeated blows til the other guy is dead.

Yes, the Judge's reason in the decision could've been worded better and the Prison itself might have tro change their policy in the future.

However, this particular case and this particular prisoner don't make for a good case to attach the defense of Dungeons & Dragons to it.

- Ed C.

Ed, I realize it's a scary thought but there are prisoners who have done a hell of a lot worse than this guy. That's not really the point, though. Like I said they have been punished (and put away) and now we can either dehumanize them further or attempt to rehabilitate them.

Regards,
David R

If they've done what this guy did or worse, they don't deserve rehabilitation, if its even possible.

Quote from: Werekoala;357873If they've done what this guy did or worse, they don't deserve rehabilitation, if its even possible.

It's not even about what THEY deserve... but about what sort of society I want to be living in. I don't want to be in a society that treats ANY PERSON like garbage that can be thrown away and forgotten. I want my culture to have faith in a person's ability to change and improve... even if, for some people, that's not going to happen.
As a citizen I am NOT PROUD of my country's prisons, I'm NOT PROUD about the number of people in them, I'm NOT PROUD about the rate at which those who get let out end up going right back in.
It's really very little to do with what the prisoner wants, it's about what I want for my country.

Well yes, it's not about deserve, it's about an effective strategy in dealing with crime and yes, the human condition. My thinking is, if we are not going to kill them, we should rehabilitate them.

Regards,
David R

Then kill them. Anyone who murders deserves death. And let's not get into semantics about self-defense and all that. I'm talking about beating someone to death with a sledgehammer and the like.

Simlasa: There are plenty of other societies to choose from that are much cushier in regards to their treatment of criminals. If this one distresses you so much, you still have enough freedom left to pick one that suits you better. Perhaps Uruguay.

/redneck hat off

For what its worth, I do think we spend too much time locking people up for "minor" offenses such as drug possesion. I think most currently illegal drugs should be legalized and regulated, which would solve a huge bit of the overcrowding problem and would also help reduce the influence of gangs and whatnot, which lead to more crime.

Quote from: Werekoala;357924For what its worth, I do think we spend too much time locking people up for "minor" offenses such as drug possesion. I think most currently illegal drugs should be legalized and regulated, which would solve a huge bit of the overcrowding problem and would also help reduce the influence of gangs and whatnot, which lead to more crime.

So, given that you think that many people who are currently in prison should not even be there in the first place, do you think it is right for there to be a general ban on fantasy games for anyone in prison?

Mmmm.... probably not for GenPop, but for murderers and such, I'd say yes. I talk big, but I'm really not a huge ogre at heart. But really, what percentage of prisoners play fantasy games to start with? I can't imagine too many, but I don't guess we'll really know.

Quote from: Werekoala;357924Then kill them. Anyone who murders deserves death.

The trouble is, that there are enough innocent people in jail, proven innocent twenty years AFTER their first trial. If they would've been killed, you could not set them free, after proven NOT guilty.

The part without your redneck hat seems reasoned.

Well, you cut out the key part of that sentence, about bashing someone to death with a sledgehammer. Highly doubtful that's a wrongful conviction. That said, the very small percentage is the price we pay for living in society and punishing criminals. I'm not a big believer in trashing a whole system for the sake of an innocent man, especially when the vast majority of those punished are actually guilty. Its not perfect, it sucks, sorry to ruin your life, but that's the way the system works. As long as we TRY to be as accurate as possible, then that's just how it goes. Hopefully as technology advances, fewer innocents will be convicted before they have to spend decades waiting for a DNA test to prove innocence.

Maybe I AM an ogre after all...

Quote from: Werekoala;357940Well, you cut out the key part of that sentence, about bashing someone to death with a sledgehammer. Highly doubtful that's a wrongful conviction. That said, the very small percentage is the price we pay for living in society and punishing criminals. I'm not a big believer in trashing a whole system for the sake of an innocent man, especially when the vast majority of those punished are actually guilty.

In Illinois, governor Ryan put a moratorium on the death penalty in 2000 because there were more people who were found innocent and released from death row than were executed.  There were 18 people on death row who were found innocent upon retrial between 1987 and 2004.  (There had been 13 at the time of the moratorium, compared to 12 people executed in the same time period.)  

I can accept jailing people given an imperfect system, but I think it is unacceptable to kill them given such vagaries.  Sure, Illinois from 1987 to 2004 is not the whole country - but there is no way that I would support killing someone if there were even a 10% chance he was innocent, and a >50% rate is way beyond unacceptable to me.

Well, isn't it amazing that they put a stop to it so they could re-evaluate the convictions? Up until you pull the trigger, that IS always an option, and part of the reason that death-row inmates typically sit around for 10-20 YEARS exhausting their appeals. It's not like we sting 'em up at dawn the next day, after all.

In the meantime, no D&D, however.

Oh Werekoala, you don't ruin my life. In my country we have no death penalty (one state has it but can't use it cuz the country's constitution forbids it ) and I will never visit the USA for some reasons.
The point is, you can't simply seperate the innocent from the guilty and even if you could: forbid people who once sold pot to their neighbour to play DnD? Isn't it a bit harsh? Just a little bit harsh, I mean. The world does not end, just because one gamer cannot play.

A state is measured on how they treat their poor, their beaten and their criminals. Prison shall not be a hotel of course! But it should not be a hellhouse either.

To come back to DnD: maybe it should be a small luxury to good behaving inmates. But can Dnd promote gang violence? I never was in a prison, so I really can't answer that question.

Quote from: Werekoala;357949Well, isn't it amazing that they put a stop to it so they could re-evaluate the convictions? Up until you pull the trigger, that IS always an option, and part of the reason that death-row inmates typically sit around for 10-20 YEARS exhausting their appeals. It's not like we sting 'em up at dawn the next day, after all.

In the meantime, no D&D, however.

Oh, yeah.  The topic...  :-)

I'm fine with no D&D on death row or (since I don't support the death penalty) for the most violent of prisoners.  And it seems that we both disagree with the actual Wisconsin rule of no fantasy gaming among all prisoners.  That's probably about as close an agreement as we'll get.