It's fucking lame, regardless of the hows and whys cited as justification for this bullshit, and it can't be stopped by any serious gamer anyway.  Chits and a lot of memorized rules will do just fine.

Quote from: GrimJesta;357660The Prison System isn't set up for rehabilitation and it never has been. It's set up to be punishment. It's meant to suck, to make the person not want to go back to jail. Most of my family works in the prison system and the court system in New York. This is what I've learned from them.

So no, I'm not talking about rehabilitation. I'm talking about taking away creature comforts from a prick that killed another human being premeditated.

-=Grim=-

Ah. Thanks for the response.

To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with you for wanting bad things for people who commit terrible crimes; I think I mentioned somewhere above that I believe that's a very deeply rooted human desire. Even so, when you talk about prisons being for punishment:

Quote from: GrimJesta;357660It's set up to be punishment. It's meant to suck, to make the person not want to go back to jail.

...and then talk about about them not wanting to go back to jail, that's talking about rehabilitation.  You want them to not want to go back there so much that they won't commit another crime in order to avoid doing so. If it was really just about punishment, why wouldn't we have far worse treatment of prisoners?  Floggings, prolonged isolation, starvation diet...I'm sure we could come up with any number of ways to make prison unpleasant in ways that make today's prisons look like a tea party.  Why not?

I think that in much of the rest of the developed world changes in prison systems have headed towards what produces the best end results for the least total cost.  And that appears to be at odds with what a lot of basic human desires for revenge push us towards.

Quote from: Bobloblah;357667...and then talk about about them not wanting to go back to jail, that's talking about rehabilitation.  

If the reason they don't want to go back is because it sucks, no, it isn't. If they don't want to go back to prison because they're a different person, one who doesn't want to commit crimes anymore, then they're rehabilitated. Prison doesn't seem to have much luck with the latter...

Seanchai

Quote from: GrimJesta;357660Not even close. The Prison System isn't set up for rehabilitation and it never has been. It's set up to be punishment. It's meant to suck, to make the person not want to go back to jail.

Pray tell me, what does your philosophy say about no-parole life imprisonment? They'll never get out of jail, so they'll obviously never go back to jail again. So what's the point in making them suffer?

Quote from: Premier;357673Pray tell me, what does your philosophy say about no-parole life imprisonment? They'll never get out of jail, so they'll obviously never go back to jail again. So what's the point in making them suffer?

They serve as an example.

Seanchai

Quote from: GrimJesta;357660Not even close. The Prison System isn't set up for rehabilitation and it never has been. It's set up to be punishment. It's meant to suck, to make the person not want to go back to jail.

And that works so very well, which is why the US Justice system has so few repeat offenders!

Oh wait...

Quote from: Seanchai;357674They serve as an example.

Seanchai

There is no deterrent for murder, so it doesn't really serve any practical purpose other than keeping him off the streets.

Really, though, I could give a shit one way or the other if they play a game in jail, it doesn't change anything.

The American prison system, no offense to Serious Paul, is seriously insane and has an overall detrimental effect on American society by being run in the manner in which it is currently run (badly and punitively). This kind of silliness is just one example amongst many.

I think we can all agree that we don't give a shit whether the hammer-wielding murderer gets to play games in his cell.

The annoying thing is the ridiculous characterisations of D&D in the judgement.

Quote from: The_Shadow;357704I think we can all agree that we don't give a shit whether the hammer-wielding murderer gets to play games in his cell.

The annoying thing is the ridiculous characterisations of D&D in the judgement.

Actually, some of us are concerned about both. It's because of the dehumanisation of prisoners in the American judicial and penal system that this sort of ridiculous restriction is even considered.

I think being in prison is a big enough punishment that being able to play a game isn't going to really ameliorate the effects.
I realize a LOT of my fellow citizens enjoy thinking of prisoners as subhumans... as The Other... worthy only of torture and abuse. But I'd prefer core rehabilitation for the people who will respond to it, and the irredeemably violent folks out of the general populace where they can't hurt anyone.
To my mind the kind of suffering some people want prisons to inflict only serves to widen the rift between the inmates and mainstream society... rather than bridging it with help and understanding... and by 'help and understanding' I don't mean a complete lack of punishment and I don't mean no hard work on the part of the criminal.
But, as in a lot of other things, my country's approach to law and order is a bit regressive.

Quote from: Seanchai;357674They serve as an example.

Seanchai

Making them worse also helps in making them into a tool to punish regular criminals in ways that the state can't officially sanction... though it can encourage (say by taking a lifer's games away and putting him in the general population with guys that didn't pay their taxes or won a bar fight).

Imprisonment in the U.S. is supposed to avoid being "cruel and unusual". Unfortunately, neither word is objective, and most people have a different definition of both.

I don't want them physically tortured, but I don't want them to have creature comforts either. Locking someone in a cell and giving them the basics of survival is not "unusual" - that would be something like pulling fingernails out or burying them up to their necks in sand and then stoning them for a bit (which isn't unusual in some places - see, its all in your perspective...). And if it doesn't rehabilitate them to spend 5 or 10 years just surviving (no TV, no games, nothing), if its not enough of a deterrant to make them not ever want to commit a crime again - then there's plenty of room left when they come back.

Quote from: Werekoala;357715And if it doesn't rehibilitate them to spend 5 or 10 years just surviving (no TV, no games, nothing), if its not enough of a deterrant to make them not ever want to commit a crime again - then there's plenty of room left when they come back.

Why would you ever expect such treatment to rehabilitate them? Being totally cut off from mainstream society in any form for years would alienate even a relatively law-abiding citizen... let alone someone who was already at odds with society.
If you cut them off from the world to that degree... then years later dump them onto the streets you've gone and made a person who has no clue how to survive EXCEPT for what he learned in prison.

Maybe, maybe not. We've trended towards the "rehab not punishment" theories of imprisonment for almost a century now - how's that crime and recidivisim rate working out for ya?