Being able to play D&D pretty much whenever you want doesn't sound like punishment to me. And prison is punishment, first and foremost. Or it's supposed to be, at least. They should be busting rocks and making license plates instead of working out and statting up CR 6 encounters for the guys from Block C.

And, whether it can be proven statistically significant or not, I can't imagine  that most jail or prison systems are going to be supportive of a pastime that involves violent fantasy.

Say, who's the fellow hereabouts who works for the California corrections system?  Time to chime in.

!i!

Quote from: Werekoala;357599Being able to play D&D pretty much whenever you want doesn't sound like punishment to me. And prison is punishment, first and foremost. Or it's supposed to be, at least. They should be busting rocks and making license plates instead of working out and statting up CR 6 encounters for the guys from Block C.

First of all, strictly forced labor is no longer allowed in prisons.  That is, we can't beat a prisoner or put him in solitary confinement just because he won't break rocks.  It has been argued that since some prison labor systems allow the work to cut time off of an inmate's sentence, that this is effectively the same as adding to his time if he doesn't work and thus the labor is forced.  Still, the choice here is really between the prisoner playing D&D with other prisoners, and the prisoner just sitting around hanging out with other prisoners.  

Second, the stated reason for the ban was not punitive.  D&D was not banned because it was fun, but rather because it supposedly promotes "fantasy role playing, competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling."  (I like how fantasy role playing is drawn as equivalent to violence here as an inherently undesirable state.)  

To me, this brings to mind certain cartoonish villains of children's books - who insist that not only must a prisoner be physically locked up, but their imaginations must be crushed to prevent them from imagining themselves in a better place.  

It sounds stupid to me.  There seems to be no reason to think that prisoners sitting around together grumbling about how they can't play D&D (as opposed to playing D&D) is going to make them behave better or eventually make them into better citizens.

1. His life sentence does not guarantee him fun.

2. D&D does promote a gang-mentality; it's a group activity. Just look at the Forge for an example.

3. He's lucky enough that he's got a life sentence and wasn't just executed.

4. You can't rehabilitate someone with a life sentence. There is no point.

Quote from: jhkim;357614To me, this brings to mind certain cartoonish villains of children's books - who insist that not only must a prisoner be physically locked up, but their imaginations must be crushed to prevent them from imagining themselves in a better place.  

Hey, it almost worked in Brazil.

But I understand the whole "musn't mistreat the dears by making them do something to repay their debt to society, even if its just for the room and board they'll be getting for the next 20/30/125 years" mentaily.

I disagree with it.

Everyone is making a lot of assumptions about these guys that were banned from playing d&d.

It is possible that those guys really were a dangerous group. One of them at least beat someone to death with a hammer. Maybe him and his group threatened someone, and this is payback for it.

Quote from: brettmb;3576151. His life sentence does not guarantee him fun.

2. D&D does promote a gang-mentality; it's a group activity. Just look at the Forge for an example.

3. He's lucky enough that he's got a life sentence and wasn't just executed.

4. You can't rehabilitate someone with a life sentence. There is no point.

1.) Frankly, playing D&D doesn't guarantee you fun, either.

2.) Playing basketball is a group activity.  Watching TV together can be a group activity. Smoking can be a group activity.  Shouldn't anything that's a group activity then be banned by this logic (you just wish you could "ban" the Forge)?

3.) So now we're discussing the validity of capital punishment?

4.) Fascinating assertion.  Care to back it up with some evidence?

I find this whole thing hilarious. It reminds me of the anti-D&D hysteria of years gone by, and I'm betting most of the people agreeing with this measure would have decried such a ban amongst young kids. Because it's absurd. But in this case here it's somehow perfectly rational.

As for prison being about punishment, this is actually a fascinating question unto itself. We like to think of prisons as being about punishment, probably because the desire for revenge is a deeply rooted human tendency, but ask yourself this: assuming you neither execute nor incarcerate indefinitely (which I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest most would agree is unreasonable for the majority of crimes), would you rather satisfy your personal craving for revenge, or minimize the chance for re-offense upon release? Which has the better outcome for society as a whole?

Oh, and I missed Cranewings' post while I was writing.  Are you saying they were a dangerous group because of their D&D sessions? The complaints may well have been payback (the thought had occured to me on the initial read), but that doesn't mean it makes anymore sense to carry through with a ban.

"Singer was told by prison officials that he could not keep the materials because Dungeons & Dragons "promotes fantasy role playing, competitive
hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling," according to the ruling. The prison later developed a more comprehensive policy against all types of fantasy games, the court said.
The appeals court said the prison's policy was reasonable and did not violate Singer's rights."

I am definitely not saying that prison life should be marshmallows and unicorns, but the reason given for denying this request does hearken back to the 1980s D&D hysteria.

bobloblah, I don't think they were dangerous because of D&D, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were just about the only people in the prison playing it, and I wouldn't be surprised if the policy maker had a reason to dislike them or break them up, what with the fact that the GM had beaten someone to death with a hammer.

What I'm saying is that if those guys had been into Frisbee instead of dungeons and dragons, than they would have banned it instead.

Since I think it is becoming relevant to the thread, here is a link to The Pulling Report by Michael Stackpole. The report shows just how flimsy the credentials of an "expert witness" can be involving negative opinion of D&D and RPGs in general.

Quote from: Bobloblah;3576211.) Frankly, playing D&D doesn't guarantee you fun, either.

2.) Playing basketball is a group activity.  Watching TV together can be a group activity. Smoking can be a group activity.  Shouldn't anything that's a group activity then be banned by this logic (you just wish you could "ban" the Forge)?

3.) So now we're discussing the validity of capital punishment?

4.) Fascinating assertion.  Care to back it up with some evidence?

1. Neither does baseball, but it can. Duh!
2. I'm not advocating one way or the other. I am merely stating that this is a reason for someone to ban D&D.
3. No, we're not.
4. Why spend time and money to rehabilitate someone who will be stuck in prison for the rest of his life? That's asinine.

Quote from: Cranewings;357624bobloblah, I don't think they were dangerous because of D&D, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were just about the only people in the prison playing it, and I wouldn't be surprised if the policy maker had a reason to dislike them or break them up, what with the fact that the GM had beaten someone to death with a hammer.

What I'm saying is that if those guys had been into Frisbee instead of dungeons and dragons, than they would have banned it instead.

Right, and I'm saying that's stupid.  If they have a reason to dislike that prisoner, then they should state their reason and take action against that prisoner on the basis of that legitimate reason.  However, instead they have banned D&D - and may ban all fantasy games - as a general prison policy.  It's stupid to ban D&D among the whole prison population just because one troublesome prisoner plays D&D.  If it's this prisoner and his group, then go after them for their troublesomeness, not for their D&D playing, or frisbee playing, or thumb wrestling, or whatever.

Quote from: J Arcane;357585If he's a real gamer, he'll homebrew.

If inmates are allowed to have d6 dice, then it wouldn't be too hard to replicate a version of basic D&D with 3d6 replacing a d20 for the to-hit rolls, and damage rolls using only d6's.

Quote from: brettmb;3576271. Neither does baseball, but it can. Duh!
2. I'm not advocating one way or the other. I am merely stating that this is a reason for someone to ban D&D.
3. No, we're not.
4. Why spend time and money to rehabilitate someone who will be stuck in prison for the rest of his life? That's asinine.

2.) Except it doesn't seem to follow, unless you ban all other group activities, too. And why, when the problem seems to be this prisoner?

3.) Then why did you bring it up?

4.) I suppose this comes from a difference in perspective, in that almost all the rest of the developed world doesn't usually lock people up indefinitely. I forgot we were talking about the US, with world's largest prison population (by any measure), and some of the worst rates of recidivism in the developed world. I'm not trying to be flippant here; these facts are very different from elsewhere, and I have no doubt that they provide a different perspective.

Quote from: Balbinus;357582I'm not absolutely persuaded GrimJesta was focusing on efficacy of rehabilitation.

Not even close. The Prison System isn't set up for rehabilitation and it never has been. It's set up to be punishment. It's meant to suck, to make the person not want to go back to jail. Most of my family works in the prison system and the court system in New York. This is what I've learned from them.

So no, I'm not talking about rehabilitation. I'm talking about taking away creature comforts from a prick that killed another human being premeditated.

But I am on board with the bullshit reasons the "Man" gave for banning it. It does hearken back to the 1980's. I just can't make myself give a shit about this prisoner's desires.

Maybe I'm an asshole, but "meh".

-=Grim=-