This guy over at ENworld, 'Rycanada', has come up with a twist to D&D 3e that he calls 'E6'.  Essentially, PCs stop gaining levels once they reach level 6.  After that, they only get additional feats (1 feat = 5000 xp).

The idea is that the 'sweet spot' of D&D 3e for many people is the 5-8 level range.  At that point PCs are all 'heroic' in terms of their abilities, but the burden on the DM is not excessive.  Also, there aren't any 'game breaking' or 'story breaking' spells and abilities at that stage.  Overall, games at those levels are 'heroic' without being 'over-the-top' (i.e. no teleportation, resurrection, etc.).

So E6 tries to extend this 'sweet spot' over the course of a campaign (after the initial 6 'normal' levels).  The opportunity to purchase additional feats give players an incentive to 'keep going', since there are still new abilities to be obtained, just not new class levels.

IME I didn't really have a problem DM'ing D&D 3e until around levels 6-7, and never liked the 'feel' of PC abilities above level 10 (since they don't resemble anything in fantasy fiction, or at least not the fiction I like), so I really admire this approach.  

Anyhow, the original Enworld thread is here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200045&page=1&pp=40

Some additional discussion at RPGnet is here:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=341154

I think a similar 'E12' approach would suit me pretty well. 6 is a bit restrictive - it's true that powergamed characters start getting nasty in 3e before that (9th-10th level IMO), but I can handle that workload better than the 18th-level type workload.

It's a decent idea, but has a few problems IMO. With Feats being your only advacement after 6th (or whatever) level, requirements for those feats are going to limit you to what you can choose to buy. If you're working from the srd then you're going to have the same feats being chosen by anyone who qualifies on a level or skill level basis for them. You're going to get cookie cutout characters. Different classes, same range of feats. Depending on your stats, as well, you could top out on feats. What then?

I also think that the 5k for each new feat is unnecessay. Just continue with the xp advancement for your character as though he was still gaining levels, when he would go up a level, he is able to buy a new feat instead. So his first feat after topping out on level, he could buy after gaining 6k xps, then the next one after earning 7k more, the third after he has earned 8k more xps etc, etc.

I would also consider giving each character a free Toughness feat each time they would normally be gaining a level. This would reflect typical d&d advancement and enable some kind of growth within the system still (not being stuck at exactly the same power level forever) and enable being challenged by different CR monsters every now and then.

I also think there needs to be something more. What that is, i don't know at the moment, but as is, lots of feats will be obsolete and therefore choices will be limited. I understand that this is meant to keep play in the 'sweet spot' for those who want it, but it has a danger of stagnating somewhat IMO unless something else is brought to the mix.

Edit: This system also rewards multi-classing much more. You could build up some epic save bonuses by choosing to multi-class a few times before you reach 6th level. As well as a larger base of class abilities to choose from.

Eh.

I prefer the approach of slowing down advancement and increasing the rate of feat distribution. When I run D&D, I give a feat at every level except those you get an ability point at, with the caveat that half of your feats have to come from a concept related list (based on race, background, nationality, and campaign concept.)

That said, the idea of 6 levels + buying reminded me of Bushido... but Bushido seems cleaner than the this.

An alternative progression to that thread would be to require anything beyond 6th level to be bought with feats. BAB, saves, hit dice, class features, skill points, spell levels, spells themselves. So a fighter has peaked at 6th level as per the rules. When he has got 6k more xps, normally he would get the full 7th level package. With this system, he just gets a feat. With that feat he could buy...a feat from the books, he could increase his BAB to +7/+2, increase one of his base saves (if the progression of the class allows it at that level), he could buy a hit die roll, buy extra skill points or a class ability. He's 7th level in regards to his caps, but he'll only be able to initially improve one area. If he then got 7k more xps and would have been eight level, he could continue raising his abilities from 6th to 7th or maybe continus with his BAB improvement. With this kind of progression across the classes, you'd get specialists within their own classes and there would always be something to do/buy at each level other than the list of feats in the srd.

You could still get power levels rising beyond your sweet spot, but it would only be in one or two areas and therefore, probably much more manageable. A 15th level wizard? He's bought enough spell levels to cast 6th level spells, but he only has 20 hit points and his cone of cold only does 6 dice of damage (as he hasn't bought a feat to improve the damage die of the spell to 7, 8 or 9).

?

One thing to keep in mind with this option it that it is intended to help DMs run a 'low magic' and 'gritty' campaign, but with minimal changes to the core rules.  The fact that BAB, Saves, Skills, Spells, etc. are all limited to 6th level is part of what the option aims at (of course, to some extent, feats can improve those abilities, but not to the same extent as additional levels would).

At the same time, it is meant to prevent the frustration that would result if the DM announced that the campaign would simply end at level 7 (or whatever).  Additional feats provide a way for PCs to improve without significantly increasing the overall 'power level' of the campaign.  PCs will learn to do more stuff, but there will never be 5th level, let alone 9th level, spells, fighters will never be able to take on 200 orcs without worry, etc.

It's a pretty elegant idea, IMO.  And the 'power level cap' could be adjusted to suit the DM's interests (e.g. E8, E10, or E12).

Personally, I would combine it with slower progression in the beginning, and would probably go with eight 'normal' levels (E8).

In any case, if I ever ran D&D 3e again (not likely in the near future), I would definitely use this option.

Peopel like this aren´t getting D&D. The should be playing Runequest or somesuch.

Yeah, i know Akrasia. I was just thinking out loud as to what compromises i would be willing to make. It would be quite interesting to have a high level character who is about par in one or two areas for his level, but substantially below par in other areas. Would make interesting tactical choices when advancing a 'virtual level'. I guess i just wouldn't be up for the wholesale stop that the E6 advocates (apart from feats that is). I want to be able to move up in the world and opponents. My compromise would allow me to do it, but with severe restrictions. I probably wouldn't play either, to be honest. Just chewing the cud really.

D&D is about gaining levels. You can't remove them. It's... not right.

Wow. I read the linked ENWorld post.

I didn´t know you could have a Peter Pan complex in your own wish-fullfillment fantasy game.

*shakes head*

The underlying sentiment is...:rolleyes:

I see. "E6" is built on the assumption that D&D becomes a different game depending on level. And it wants to put the brake on that change.

QuoteLevels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

At first glance, that diagram looks intuitively right. But on (murky) reflection I think it's totally wrong (and hence so is "E6"). Why I think that, I'm not sure at the time of this writing.

I think it sounds like a pretty un-fun hack.

I agree with longer levelling and more feats...

-O

Quote from: SettembriniWow. I read the linked ENWorld post.

I didn´t know you could have a Peter Pan complex in your own wish-fullfillment fantasy game.

*shakes head*

The underlying sentiment is...:rolleyes:

:confused:

I can understand not liking this idea, but this makes no sense.

Quote from: obrynI think it sounds like a pretty un-fun hack.

I agree with longer levelling and more feats...

-O

Well it depends on what you want in your game.  As an attempt to realize a gritty, low magic feel with minimum change to the core rules, I think it's pretty clever.

OTOH, running a level 1-10 campaign, with a slower rate of advancement and where 10 is a 'hard' limit (but with additional feats) looks like a plausible alternative.

Quote from: AkrasiaWell it depends on what you want in your game.  As an attempt to realize a gritty, low magic feel with minimum change to the core rules, I think it's pretty clever.

I'm not really seeing how.  At that point, your saves, attack bonuses, spells, etc. don't improve.  Your character doesn't improve noticeably on any of the things they already do fairly well - the just get a broader array of feats - the best of which they won't qualify for due to other requirements.  The array of challenges you're prepared to face gets stifled.

I don't think it's a viable concept, mechanically.  Just end a campaign at level 6 if you're not happy with advancement beyond that.

-O