Quote from: Persimmon on November 13, 2021, 10:27:03 AM
It's called that simply because it's published, as it has always been, by the University of Chicago.  This is, in fact, one of the standard style guides used by publishers all over the world.  These are also tied to specific disciplines for things like how you do footnotes, bibliographies, etc.  So, for example, Chicago style is generally used in the field of history, which is my academic specialty.  But for literature, they use the guide produced by the Modern Language Association, called the MLA style.  For many of the social sciences, they use APA, or American Psychological Association style.  These are not inherently political, but are used by disciplines for uniformity.  Of course specific presses, publishers, and journals often have their own house styles that you must conform to if you wish to publish with them.  I'm an editor for a academic journal and we require all submissions to conform to our style, which is based on Chicago.  As teachers, we generally pick a style appropriate to the discipline and require our students to adhere to it.

FWIW I personally think that Goodman is absolutely virtue signalling, but whatever, I don't play DCC anyhow.  However I just wanted to clarify this about style guides.

I am very familiar with the notion of Style Guides and how they are used.

As well, I understand that the "Chicago" Style Guide comes from the University of Chicago.

However, I do not share your belief that colleges such as University of Chicago are "not inherently political". That may have been true in 1908 (I wouldn't know); it's most certainly not the case today.

Anyone who continues to rely on the Chicago Style Guide as an authority (or the CDC, or WoTC, etc.) in this day and age is adhering to a purely political agenda.

Quote from: Persimmon on November 13, 2021, 10:27:03 AM

Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing.

Interesting that the Style Guide is a product of Chicago. What's next, the Seattle Gaming Authority? Or maybe the Bay Area Behavioral Handbook? I hear "all the professionals" will use it.

It's called that simply because it's published, as it has always been, by the University of Chicago.  This is, in fact, one of the standard style guides used by publishers all over the world.  These are also tied to specific disciplines for things like how you do footnotes, bibliographies, etc.  So, for example, Chicago style is generally used in the field of history, which is my academic specialty.  But for literature, they use the guide produced by the Modern Language Association, called the MLA style.  For many of the social sciences, they use APA, or American Psychological Association style.  These are not inherently political, but are used by disciplines for uniformity.  Of course specific presses, publishers, and journals often have their own house styles that you must conform to if you wish to publish with them.  I'm an editor for a academic journal and we require all submissions to conform to our style, which is based on Chicago.  As teachers, we generally pick a style appropriate to the discipline and require our students to adhere to it.

FWIW I personally think that Goodman is absolutely virtue signalling, but whatever, I don't play DCC anyhow.  However I just wanted to clarify this about style guides.

But just like dictionaries being changed in real-time to reflect leftist perspectives, style guides can suffer the same fate.

Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.

You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?

• safety tools
• the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
• the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
• "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
• "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
• The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook

Last con I went to was in 2004. I didn't much care for it, and since I prefer home/private games and can shop either online or through local store (the two overlap somewhat in central Florida), I've never felt much desire to go to another con. If I did, I would read the rules (and yes, those rules would push me back towards not wanting to go). If for some reason I still decided to go there and run a game, then I'd follow the rules just like I follow rules at work that I may not entirely agree with.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2021, 10:25:23 AM

Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.

Holy crap. I can't believe I missed that.

Privileged people's comfort

There is no doubt Goodman Games hates you, straight white males.

BRUTAL

Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 10:32:15 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on November 13, 2021, 10:27:03 AM
It's called that simply because it's published, as it has always been, by the University of Chicago.  This is, in fact, one of the standard style guides used by publishers all over the world.  These are also tied to specific disciplines for things like how you do footnotes, bibliographies, etc.  So, for example, Chicago style is generally used in the field of history, which is my academic specialty.  But for literature, they use the guide produced by the Modern Language Association, called the MLA style.  For many of the social sciences, they use APA, or American Psychological Association style.  These are not inherently political, but are used by disciplines for uniformity.  Of course specific presses, publishers, and journals often have their own house styles that you must conform to if you wish to publish with them.  I'm an editor for a academic journal and we require all submissions to conform to our style, which is based on Chicago.  As teachers, we generally pick a style appropriate to the discipline and require our students to adhere to it.

FWIW I personally think that Goodman is absolutely virtue signalling, but whatever, I don't play DCC anyhow.  However I just wanted to clarify this about style guides.

I am very familiar with the notion of Style Guides and how they are used.

As well, I understand that the "Chicago" Style Guide comes from the University of Chicago.

However, I do not share your belief that colleges such as University of Chicago are "not inherently political". That may have been true in 1908 (I wouldn't know); it's most certainly not the case today.

Anyone who continues to rely on the Chicago Style Guide as an authority (or the CDC, or WoTC, etc.) in this day and age is adhering to a purely political agenda.

Where did I say that colleges are not inherently political?  I'm just talking about style guides.  And sure, they can absolutely be influenced by politics and political correctness.  Believe me, that's the norm nowadays with universities creating "safe spaces" for students to color in case they're triggered by something.  Yes, this is actually happening at our universities. 

But sorry to inform you that we have to adhere to style guidelines to publish in specific forums.  If you don't like someone's style guidelines, you just publish with someone else.  Personally, I've never been asked to change pronouns for anything I've published.  It's usually just related to footnote & bibliography style. In other words, citation of sources.  The other thing they generally try to make us conform to nowadays is using BCE/CE instead of BC/AD.  As a Catholic, I tend to ignore that, but the stuff I write is 17th-19th century history so I can generally get away with just putting the year in without the CE designation.

Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.

You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?

• safety tools
• the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
• the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
• "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
• "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
• The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook

Yeah....I want nothing to do with all that.  I'll buy and support stuff that doesn't put my head on a chopping block.

Quote from: 1989 on November 13, 2021, 10:48:15 AM
Privileged people's comfort

There is no doubt Goodman Games hates you, straight white males.

BRUTAL

Yup. I'm glad Goodman Games, those bastions of moral righteousness, are able to tell me who and who isn't privileged (using skin tone, genitals, and appearance no-less)!

Wonder about the legal case to be made here that these events (depending on jurisdiction) are violating equal protection laws. Having explicit written rules discriminating against people based on race/sex (and, while they could claim otherwise, everyone knows what those words mean) seems like it opens the door to litigation if you're actually harmed (and arguably, everyone who attends is harmed by the chilling & hostile environment they create).

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 10:44:09 AM

Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:30:00 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.

You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?

• safety tools
• the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
• the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
• "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
• "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
• The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook

Last con I went to was in 2004. I didn't much care for it, and since I prefer home/private games and can shop either online or through local store (the two overlap somewhat in central Florida), I've never felt much desire to go to another con. If I did, I would read the rules (and yes, those rules would push me back towards not wanting to go). If for some reason I still decided to go there and run a game, then I'd follow the rules just like I follow rules at work that I may not entirely agree with.

Sounds like we are in agreement. Must be a sign of the coming end of days.   

I lived in Central Florida/Orlando in the long, long ago. Did you ever patronize Enterprise 1701?

Quote from: GusB on November 13, 2021, 08:25:31 AM
Don't go to Goodman's Cons and give them money because they are Full Woke. No Big Deal. Tell others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make a choice not to go. No Big Deal. Don't buy their products because I don't want to support a Full Woke company. No Big Deal. Inform others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make the choice not to buy Goodman's products. No Big Deal.

We can all play the "No Big Deal" game too.

Greetings!

*Laughing* BEAUTIFUL commentary!

So true. All these Leftist, SJW shills like to spin and minimize the efforts of normal people in dealing with cultural subversion, ultimately in the hope that you will shut the fuck up and submit to the brainwashing and the corruption of society. Because, well, "It's no big deal."

Well, normal people can resist and be informed, and encourage others not to submit to the corruption, and not to continue to support these corrupt companies. Because, after all, "It's no big deal." Fucking love it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: 1989 on November 13, 2021, 10:48:15 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 13, 2021, 10:25:23 AM

Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.

Holy crap. I can't believe I missed that.

Privileged people's comfort

There is no doubt Goodman Games hates you, straight white males.

BRUTAL

Greeings!

Damn, yeah, that's right. Fucking Goodman Games can burn, then. This whole Con Rules thing they have here is absolutely horrific.

Why aren't all these companies doing these things being sued?

If you had a company selling X, or hosting a convention about A, but posted requirements and policies that stated the opposite of these things, aimed at minorities, gays, or women, I would think there would be all kinds of lawsuits, or at the very least an avalanche of hate-filled, angry press coverage.

Fucking amazing these companies do these kinds of things and somehow, just giggle self-righteously and get away with it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The only rule you ever need at a con, table or otherwise is, 'don't be a dick'.

All that other shit is just to lick the arses of the woke scolds in the hope you sell some more copies of your whateverthefuck.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 13, 2021, 12:13:25 PM
The only rule you ever need at a con, table or otherwise is, 'don't be a dick'.

All that other shit is just to lick the arses of the woke scolds in the hope you sell some more copies of your whateverthefuck.

I dont agree. YOU have one rule (which I agree with), but THEY have many according to that document. There are plenty of other games to sink my time and energy into.

Quote from: Fantacide on November 13, 2021, 12:28:35 PM
but THEY have many according to that document. There are plenty of other games to sink my time and energy into.

Oh, fuck those guys... I just mean when you're at a table you should be a decent person.

Same as if I go over to someone's house for a drink. I'm going to be polite. That does'nt mean I won't speak my mind, however. 

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 13, 2021, 12:33:20 PM

Quote from: Fantacide on November 13, 2021, 12:28:35 PM
but THEY have many according to that document. There are plenty of other games to sink my time and energy into.

Oh, fuck those guys... I just mean when you're at a table you should be a decent person.

Same as if I go over to someone's house for a drink. I'm going to be polite. That does'nt mean I won't speak my mind, however. 

Greetings!

Right right, Rob!

I remember my early experiences going to cons in the 80's and 90's. They basically hadthree spoken--or nspoken rules.

(1) Obey the Laws
(2) Don't be a Dick
(3) No fucking anywhere outside of your hotel room.

Most Cons then were a mix of everyone--some older grognards, some wives and family, a good number of kids, and of course, a whole bunch of horny, rowdy adolescents and younger adults.

The places were bursting with RPG's and D&D, but also board games, like Third Reich and Squad Leader. There were usually one or two large movie rooms, showing Excalibur, Alien, and other sci-fi, fantasy, and historical movies, like 24/7. Any hour, day or night, there was usualy a dozen or two dozen people in these rooms watching movies.

Food and snacks everywhere. People going about, laughing, screaming, chasing each other. Some people in costumes. A rather large number of women, too. Huge rooms where grognards had MINIATURES set up, with enormous, elaborate and complex terrain covering the tables, depicting battles in Normandy, Iwo Jima, Stalingrad. Family games rooms, all kinds of things. Asults drinking alcohol in various areas.

I mean, it was a crazy, fun, open atmosphere, for four days straight, 24 hours a day. The Cons/Hotels just didn't want anyone to be a dick; no alcohol going to minors; and no fucking in public; and everyone just having fun.

That was it. THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, at all of these conventions, every year. No stupid, insulting fucking requirements or rules. No scandals, no BS going on. No hatred, racism, or discrimination going on against anyone. No one cared what fucking colour you were. Men and women alike were all welcome. Kids, adults, older people, were all welcome.

And I love this. At one convention, every year, there was this huge black man that always wore a Nazi Officer's Uniform, swastika armband, polished black leather boots and everything, as he hosted some Word War II Miniature Wargame. He was a 25 year veteran of the US Army.

Those were the days when game conventions were fun, rational, reasonable, and fucking normal. I remember always be treated like a welcome guest by every staff member, security, bartender, whoever.

And the people attending? All were generally wonderful people, who were always looking to make new friends, enjoy gaming, and welcome new gamers to their games, or themselves trying new games, and enjoying meeting new, fun and interesting people.

It boggles me that so many game conventions are turning into fucking cesspools of hatred and absolute stupidity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote
That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

Rulings, not rules. Each gaming table is it's own entity. And the power distribution depends of people agreeing to play in specific way.
So no your way may be older - but it's in no way some Platonic ideal.

For instance it can be whole team kicking GM off, and if it's all against one, and they pick another GM among themselves to continue gaming - I think we can all agree right (and in such situation ironically might makes right) was on their side, and GM was walked away never to return. Because he does not constitutes the table. Table is Commonwealth. And Presidents can be impeached.

Now I'm more on trad side myself - but on the other hand, new ways were born, because terrible railroading GM's homeruling games without telling player, ignoring rolls when inconvinient were a thing. I would say in 90's and early 00's they were a plague. And this is part PC, but part backlash against it. Of course I doubt it would work well, because problem is - there is too much lazy players unwilling to take GM's mantle, and so the laws of market allows asshole GMs to fluorish.

QuoteThat ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

Worse game can continue without him :3

QuoteThe format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

Well yes but on GoodmanCon table belongs neither to players nor to GM. It belongs to Goodman Games, and they loan them to players for a time, under certain rules.
And as they physically own table... you get it. So it was never GM's table in the first place. He was never a king, nor a president, merely herold, or mercenary sergeant.

QuoteSo it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.

Whoever wants to DM to bunch of randoms at convention deserves any kind of doom they shall meet.

QuoteThey often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing

Well damn, that makes them even less lords of table, and more hired goons. You wanna table, you buy your own. And if you are bought by a table, tough shit.

QuoteAnybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing. Getting the Chicago Style of Grammar or whatever it's called to go along with it is just another win for these evil bastards.

I am not the manichean. As we discussed before singular they for unspecified subject is thing for 600 fucking years of English development. (And it mostly sounds better in such occurences at least for me non-native). So if that's amount of woke incoming - I could not care less. If leftists gonna do something fine once upon a time, I'm not gonna scoff in name of Absolute War.

Quote"Well it's okay if Goodman Games uses they, but if they use Xe then that's too far." ... This is exactly the kind of thinking the Woke Left want people to have. This is what let's these people get away with all their Woke crap.

Well no. Woke Left want us to accept xir, zer, dun and bunny pronouns, or will scream, and whine, and cancel us. There is no half-way, not nowadays with those bastards.
That's precisely why I have no problem with cherrypicking those moments when broken clock shows right time here and there for my private pleasure.

QuoteWhy should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.

Because he is mercenary in service of ruthless ConLords and he shall do as they order him to.
That's the deal. The only consent Con-GM has in his game, is stop GMing for Cons, and return to his basement.

QuoteThe only rule you ever need at a con, table or otherwise is, 'don't be a dick'.

All that other shit is just to lick the arses of the woke scolds in the hope you sell some more copies of your whateverthefuck.

That's terrible rule for any public gathering where lot of people not knowing themselves gonna met. It's imprecise in all possible ways, unless we interpret it as ban to all men (and women!) named Richard Sorry Mr. Cheney - no con for you

QuoteThose were the days when game conventions were fun, rational, reasonable, and fucking normal. I remember always be treated like a welcome guest by every staff member, security, bartender, whoever.

And the people attending? All were generally wonderful people, who were always looking to make new friends, enjoy gaming, and welcome new gamers to their games, or themselves trying new games, and enjoying meeting new, fun and interesting people.

It boggles me that so many game conventions are turning into fucking cesspools of hatred and absolute stupidity.

Because generally loosely defined rules works only in generally monocultural societies, and US is not a one, and it's less and less anything like this with every passing years. And more divergent society - the more specific rules to judge. Cannot say I condemn it, when we were planning our CatholicCon in Poland, which fizzled due to pandemic unfortunetely our Rules were definitely more than "not be dick". We also have rules against furrysuits, lewd behaviour, mini skirts, and Calvinism.