Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 01, 2021, 02:32:43 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:10:07 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 01:44:19 PM
I'm at my phone right now so I can't type out a complicated response. But just to be clear what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictatorship.
Totalitarian because the state would have total control over everyone's lives, and a dictatorship because only a few would have absolute control over what everyone else would be able to do.
While you envision the totalitarian dictator ship to be benign or even good, it would still ultimately be a totalitarian dictatorship.
And that's fine if you want to advocate for that everyone's entitled to their own opinion ( but not in your system )  but some people fundamentally do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship even a nice one .

By the very definition of the words what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictator ship. If you can come to terms with that, then We can have a conversation further about why totalitarian dictatorships inexorably become corrupt more so than less centralized states, and why I would pose a totalitarian dictator ship even a nice one

I think we understand our current reality differently. I am aware that many view Government Control = Loss of freedom. I view the Government like a Corporation I can't quit but who I vote for the boss. There is some level of control and buy in. Meanwhile actual corporations are miniature feudal kingdoms whose rulers I never voted for. I may be able to quit one, but I have to work either for one or with one if I am not working for/with the government. They rule not by consent of the governed, but by their ability to own and wield capital just like the nobility of old.

You are right in that I do advocate that the state should have more control over our lives because I prefer the state to corporations controlling my life. I interpret demands for "smaller government" as "pro feudalism".

Our disconnect and the disconnect I have many on this forum, is I do not see "licking the boots of the wealthy" as freedom or a kind of freedom better than freedom from the Government. 

I also feel like arguments about word definitions are inherently meaningless. If you define eating ice-cream as racist, I am not going to conclude that eating ice-cream is evil or tell you that your definition of eating ice-cream is wrong. I am not going to use your terms either.

"Government control is good because Corporate control is bad...and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to lick the boots of the corporations.

Because false dichotomy between telling both of these types of entities to go FUCK themselves or something."

And who do you think is going to implement this algorithmic digital credit score system you're clamoring for? Who do you think is already taking steps to implement this type of system right NOW*?

THE FUCKING CORPORATIONS, who're in bed the the government. They're BOTH fucking us over Chinese finger-cuffs style already as we speak. And any attempts to continue to push this type of tech forward are going to inevitably end in tech-corp backed FASCIM.

There is NO dichotomy between corporations and the government in the modern world. They both ARE the "government".

*with their control of news, search engines, social media and the digital space in general, And now with the idea of "Vaccine Passports".

I bet he thinks it will be him in power, or at the very least those puritans of his weird cult.

But this is deviating from the forum's purpose, I vote we move this discusion to pundit's forum.

 Definitions of words are very important. Just because social justice warriors abuse definitions, doesn't give you carte blanche to abuse them as well.
For instants feudalism wasn't defined by the Lords abilities to produce capital but by the force of arms.
When you play around with very important words it makes it very difficult to follow what you actually want to achieve in the world, that's why definitions are important, and if there is a issue with the definitions employed by the arguing individuals it's best to come to a consensus instead of saying definitions don't matter.
When you play around with very important words it makes it very difficult to follow what you actually want to achieve in the world, that's why definitions are important, and if there is a issue with the definitions employed by the arguing individuals it's best to come to a consensus instead of saying definitions don't matter.

The government is magnanimously closer to the feudal lords of the past than any corporation. Because a government Centralizes the use of force and access to force.
I'm not trying to play gotcha with the words you say, I'm trying to understand why you would want something.

What defines an authoritarian system is that the government can bring more force to solve more things. Solve in this case means anything that the government doesn't like.  So I am confused as to why you would want to make the system more like feudalism then. Or not so much so feudalism was imperialism. Your lords simply become in shrine in a larger political system and where is before you could at least quit,  they are now permanently enshrined strictures in the government.

While I am no fan of corrupt and evil organizations and corporations what makes you believe that you are entitled to control over them? Especially if as you said you can quit them. If what bothers you are there overages where they use their abilities to access government to force things to happen, why would you want to make the system even more authoritarian in such a way that would grab them even more power . In place of capitalist corporations you would be enthralled to reputation currency-based corporations.

On a smaller scale your example of gaming stores having to let people play their last they be punished, did not sound appealing to me because I did not believe that I had the right to dictate how they should live like that. On top of that I don't have the ego to believe that the entire world should be laid out for my convenience.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:37:08 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

Actually I don't think fascist is applicable because it is not feature a centralized ruling party, it is 100% dictatorial though. May be a dictatorial democracy, or a dictatorial technocracy.

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2021, 02:28:43 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 01:28:36 PM
There is no reason to assume the whole process immediately jumps to a totalitarian dictatorship...

How do you feel about sites such as YouTube, Twitter, and Reddit that implement similar algorithmic reputation systems? Do you feel that these systems consistently surface the best & most useful content and reward the best people? How would what you're proposing differ in a meaningful way from other existing algorithmic rating systems?

If someone kills someone else and gets -10,000 reputation, is that just as bad as littering 10,000 times? What if someone is falsely convicted of a crime, do prosecutors get negative reputation for a prosecution that's later overturned? If you're mentally ill and behave erratically sometimes, is that your fault or...? What if you own a business but your wife cheats on you and then spreads a bunch of lies about you that hurts your reputation?

This type of pie-in-the-sky thinking seems very much driven by people who either don't work with technology or haven't meaningfully grappled with the consequences of it. The world is a lot more complex than it's possible to boil down into our models, and the more we try to force the world to align with the model the more negative effects this will have.

I think there's a solid case to be made that centralization in technology inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Given enough time, the people who are willing to act unethically for their own advantage will be able to use these mechanisms to their own advantage.

More and more activities and worth is measured with models. If you work in a large enough corporation all your worth is boiled down to a few metrics.

All social media is a huge waste of time and I recommend for mental health purposes to avoid as much exposure as possible. That being said, the recommended content on youtube does normally elicit some positive feeling when I watch it. The forums I browse on reddit are too niche for the algorithms to meaningfully change what I see.

Maybe a big polluter would have worth rep than a murderer, BUT that would have to be offset by weights to their wealth generation. Some incentive against polluting without eliminating industry. In our current legal system lawyers would have to be blocked from rep loss for court arguments the same way the villains in movies would need to have rep loss prevented from moronic fans that decide to dislike the actor for a character. There is motions to be more tolerant of the mentally ill, but the people advocating for that you guys tend to disagree with. You need to reconcile that conflict before I can offer a rep answer. Maybe the guy who couldn't maintain a marriage deserves the rep loss. A lot of these "victims" have fucked up ideas about women and married for stupid reasons. Both get rep hits unless it is a very peaceful divorce.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 01, 2021, 02:32:43 PM"Government control is good because Corporate control is bad...and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to lick the boots of the corporations.

Because false dichotomy between telling both of these types of entities to go FUCK themselves or something."

And who do you think is going to implement this algorithmic digital credit score system you're clamoring for? Who do you think is already taking steps to implement this type of system right NOW*?

THE FUCKING CORPORATIONS, who're in bed the the government. They're BOTH fucking us over Chinese finger-cuffs style already as we speak. And any attempts to continue to push this type of tech forward are going to inevitably end in tech-corp backed FASCIM.

There is NO dichotomy between corporations and the government in the modern world. They both ARE the "government".

*with their control of news, search engines, social media and the digital space in general, And now with the idea of "Vaccine Passports".

Well another option I have been thinking about is economies of scope. Interdependence and tyranny can go down if people were more self reliant. 3D printing technology, renewable power generation, hydroponics, etc. These are all technologies that could make individuals more self reliant and decrease the need for societal involvement. I personally still advocate a rep economy backbone to incentivize the development of these technologies and the schematics people would use. Right now their is no incentive to make 3D-printer models unless you sell the model and have some sort of digital rights managements. That whole compensation system becomes easier if your schematic for an auto-bathroom-cleaner results in a rep increase and people can print the device out themselves.   

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:39:51 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 01, 2021, 02:32:43 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:10:07 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 01:44:19 PM
I'm at my phone right now so I can't type out a complicated response. But just to be clear what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictatorship.
Totalitarian because the state would have total control over everyone's lives, and a dictatorship because only a few would have absolute control over what everyone else would be able to do.
While you envision the totalitarian dictator ship to be benign or even good, it would still ultimately be a totalitarian dictatorship.
And that's fine if you want to advocate for that everyone's entitled to their own opinion ( but not in your system )  but some people fundamentally do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship even a nice one .

By the very definition of the words what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictator ship. If you can come to terms with that, then We can have a conversation further about why totalitarian dictatorships inexorably become corrupt more so than less centralized states, and why I would pose a totalitarian dictator ship even a nice one

I think we understand our current reality differently. I am aware that many view Government Control = Loss of freedom. I view the Government like a Corporation I can't quit but who I vote for the boss. There is some level of control and buy in. Meanwhile actual corporations are miniature feudal kingdoms whose rulers I never voted for. I may be able to quit one, but I have to work either for one or with one if I am not working for/with the government. They rule not by consent of the governed, but by their ability to own and wield capital just like the nobility of old.

You are right in that I do advocate that the state should have more control over our lives because I prefer the state to corporations controlling my life. I interpret demands for "smaller government" as "pro feudalism".

Our disconnect and the disconnect I have many on this forum, is I do not see "licking the boots of the wealthy" as freedom or a kind of freedom better than freedom from the Government. 

I also feel like arguments about word definitions are inherently meaningless. If you define eating ice-cream as racist, I am not going to conclude that eating ice-cream is evil or tell you that your definition of eating ice-cream is wrong. I am not going to use your terms either.

"Government control is good because Corporate control is bad...and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to lick the boots of the corporations.

Because false dichotomy between telling both of these types of entities to go FUCK themselves or something."

And who do you think is going to implement this algorithmic digital credit score system you're clamoring for? Who do you think is already taking steps to implement this type of system right NOW*?

THE FUCKING CORPORATIONS, who're in bed the the government. They're BOTH fucking us over Chinese finger-cuffs style already as we speak. And any attempts to continue to push this type of tech forward are going to inevitably end in tech-corp backed FASCIM.

There is NO dichotomy between corporations and the government in the modern world. They both ARE the "government".

*with their control of news, search engines, social media and the digital space in general, And now with the idea of "Vaccine Passports".

I bet he thinks it will be him in power, or at the very least those puritans of his weird cult.

But this is deviating from the forum's purpose, I vote we move this discusion to pundit's forum.

Meh, I've been trying to avoid that, since I swore off Pundit's forum months ago, plus I figured this was at least tangentially related to gaming, since it dealt with a setting concept. But I guess it's teetering on the edge of hard politics?

Wow, this game sounds completely insane. Who wrote this? The leftwing counterpart of Tom Kratman?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2021, 04:28:12 PM
Wow, this game sounds completely insane. Who wrote this? The leftwing counterpart of Tom Kratman?

I think it was written by people who were too leftist for the creators of Eclipse Phase.  Or by people who found Eclipse Phase wasn't far enough to the left for them.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:39:51 PM
But this is deviating from the forum's purpose, I vote we move this discusion to pundit's forum.

Our latest batch of new posters seem hell bent on posting straight politics in the gaming forum.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 01, 2021, 04:57:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:39:51 PM
But this is deviating from the forum's purpose, I vote we move this discusion to pundit's forum.

Our latest batch of new posters seem hell bent on posting straight politics in the gaming forum.

That does seem to be the case. It is like the days when Forge advocates would pop in to proselytize, but now it is just leftist politics thinly disguised by gaming.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:37:08 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

You know your opening line here, i can be an asshole and not die of starvation for it' reminded me of a line from 'demolition man' when simon phoenix, the bad guy, says to the masjor villain "You can't go around taking away people's rights to be assholes!"

And to an extent you're both right, but i hope you're not a mass murderer like simon phoenix was.

But yes a 'rep culture' can be used to crush dissent even in the smallest degree. i mean look at the horror the chinese government, may it rot in hell, is using with thweir total surveilance and instant rating program. God that has to be the most horrible place to live in any technologically advanced country.

Eclipse phase mentioned that a guy ended up losing a job he was qualified to do and forced to work a job that was literally killing him simply due to a bad rep over some social gaffes created by ignorance. That's going a bit too far.

I mean this rep culture could be ok or horrible depending on how much power it has or is allowed to have.  I see real issues with it like Mr. Chad or Ms. Stacy just taskes a dislike to someone and asks his/her followers to ding the guy en mass, and it fucks up his whole life on every level. Talk about cyberbullying.

So yes, at best i think the rep culture could be maybe a little ok mostly, but the down side is really worse than the benefits. So i'm not a huge fan.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 01, 2021, 04:37:11 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2021, 04:28:12 PM
Wow, this game sounds completely insane. Who wrote this? The leftwing counterpart of Tom Kratman?

I think it was written by people who were too leftist for the creators of Eclipse Phase.  Or by people who found Eclipse Phase wasn't far enough to the left for them.

I have a reflexive question for people who say something is 'too left" that i generally have to ask.

If you say that something is too left, then could you give me an example of something that's too right for you?

I mean this game changed stars is definitely too left for me and i am a card carrying progressive. I like EP but not this hot mess if it's really as bad as the righties say it is. (Righties tend to wildy exaggerate to an extreme degree of reductio ad absurdum the badwrong of anything to their left of their position.)

So as a leftist i can say that there are things too left for me, i was wondering what would be too right for people condemning this game setting, which i would too if what's being said about it's even close to true.

Quote from: matt swain on May 01, 2021, 06:29:21 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:37:08 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

You know your opening line here, i can be an asshole and not die of starvation for it' reminded me of a line from 'demolition man' when simon phoenix, the bad guy, says to the masjor villain "You can't go around taking away people's rights to be assholes!"

And to an extent you're both right, but i hope you're not a mass murderer like simon phoenix was.

But yes a 'rep culture' can be used to crush dissent even in the smallest degree. i mean look at the horror the chinese government, may it rot in hell, is using with thweir total surveilance and instant rating program. God that has to be the most horrible place to live in any technologically advanced country.

Eclipse phase mentioned that a guy ended up losing a job he was qualified to do and forced to work a job that was literally killing him simply due to a bad rep over some social gaffes created by ignorance. That's going a bit too far.

I mean this rep culture could be ok or horrible depending on how much power it has or is allowed to have.  I see real issues with it like Mr. Chad or Ms. Stacy just taskes a dislike to someone and asks his/her followers to ding the guy en mass, and it fucks up his whole life on every level. Talk about cyberbullying.

So yes, at best i think the rep culture could be maybe a little ok mostly, but the down side is really worse than the benefits. So i'm not a huge fan.

You are not going far enough with the concept of social currency.

If someone is deemed to have too low of a social currency value, well they can still be used for their organs.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646

There is the end result of your Glorious Revolution.

Anyone thinking that a setting where someone's life hinges on public opinion of them is going to go in good directions for people should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You%27ve_Been_Publicly_Shamed  Here is what actually happens.

Let's face it, in a rep culture to the level we have TODAY in 'murca, the mere hint, or accusation, or something not even illegal can kill a  budding career that someone worked hard to get going, or even an established career that someone worked hard for years or decades to earn.

I mean, al franken had to step down as a senator but no one on the right wants matt gaetz kicked out of the senate for what he's accused of, and there is mounting evidence for? Yeah, this cancel culture seems to be a one way street i a lot of cases.

This whole thing of constant surveillance thru phones and the net, along with rep/cancel culture may be an idea who's time has come, but that  doesn't make it a good idea.

BTW, this site has no rep score system i've found yet. Interesting.