TheRPGSite

So I was browsing reddit today because I like pain some decent people still hang out there when this little gem popped into my feed:

ChangedStars, the richly worldbuilt queer-themed feminist scifi TTRPG set in a post-war interspecies Union I'm illustrating & lorecrafting is live on Kickstarter! (https://www.reddit.com/r/scifirpgs/comments/mzzpfd/changedstars_the_richly_worldbuilt_queerthemed/)

"Huh" Says me.  "Seems like a standard 'in the future, transhumanism means gender is an outmoded concept' transhumanist RPG #5000.  Still might be good for a lark."

So I read the Kickstarter pitch. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dieselshot/changedstars/description)

Nothing could have prepared me for the display of gibbering insanity I was about to read.

The Very first line is "The indomitable Human Empire vaulted itself majestically dick-first into space."

Okay...

I kept reading and my jaw hit the floor at the horrifying, authoritarian fever dream on display.

Let me summarize in order to spare your precious brain cells.  In the distant future, Humanity forms an Empire to subjugate the stars because it's run by "Flesh-eating Men."  We conquer murder and genocide our way across the Galaxy until we run into a race of inectoids called the Mary Sues Murai and their allies the Thren, who of course kick our asses because authorial self-loathing.

Then the "Sister Species" decide to forcibly remake human civilization in "The Great Transition."   This was a literal Mao-style Cultural Revolution.  To hear the pitch describe it:

"They altered religious texts, did away with megacorporations, and temporarily disallowed males from filling political positions (the Thren being formerly matriarchal turned egalitarian, and the Murai being a genderless species suspected the patriarchal nature of the Human Empire to have contributed to the worst of its atrocities). "

JEE-ZUS. There was no way that was voluntary. The way it's described conjures up images of Cisgender men being rounded up and forced into gender-conversion camps to "cure" their "maleness."  Conquering a people and forcibly altering their culture to conform to what you want it to be, gee there's another word for that: Genocide.  I guess it's okay when we do it.

Just when you thought it couldn't get worse: it does.

The Supercomputer the Human Empire created to direct our military was reprogrammed and turned into an absolute despot a totally fair and impartial and saintly distributor of humanity's resources and director of our internal affairs.

The name of this overlord: "The Mother of Steel"

JESUS
TAPDANCING
CHRIST

So basically you're playing as SCUM Manifesto Stalinists in a future where the Great Leap Forward has happened.  I guarantee  you that one of the primary antagonists will be a faction of evil reactionaries who *checks notes* want the freedom to express their gender identity.  Which is bad because they're cisgender men.

The fundamental lack of self-awareness on display here is truly stunning. Both from the Author and from the people who backed this thing.  It's like an infinitely long train derailing.

Honestly, I am rather excited to see where this goes.  I'll never pay a cent for it, but I'll gladly sit back popcorn in hand and watch the fireworks.

This is straight up the Portland Tankie version of MyFarOg or Ra-Ho-Wa.  ;D

"funded in five hours" motherfucker you only asked for 5K

Someone tell 4chan, because this looks like fucking comedy gold. I haven't laughed this hard since Thirsty Sword Lesbians!

Quote from: Torque2100 on April 28, 2021, 12:16:04 PM
So I was browsing reddit today because I like pain some decent people still hang out there when this little gem popped into my feed:

ChangedStars, the richly worldbuilt queer-themed feminist scifi TTRPG set in a post-war interspecies Union I'm illustrating & lorecrafting is live on Kickstarter! (https://www.reddit.com/r/scifirpgs/comments/mzzpfd/changedstars_the_richly_worldbuilt_queerthemed/)

"Huh" Says me.  "Seems like a standard 'in the future, transhumanism means gender is an outmoded concept' transhumanist RPG #5000.  Still might be good for a lark."

So I read the Kickstarter pitch. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dieselshot/changedstars/description)

Nothing could have prepared me for the display of gibbering insanity I was about to read.

The Very first line is "The indomitable Human Empire vaulted itself majestically dick-first into space."

Okay...

I kept reading and my jaw hit the floor at the horrifying, authoritarian fever dream on display.

Let me summarize in order to spare your precious brain cells.  In the distant future, Humanity forms an Empire to subjugate the stars because it's run by "Flesh-eating Men."  We conquer murder and genocide our way across the Galaxy until we run into a race of inectoids called the Mary Sues Murai and their allies the Thren, who of course kick our asses because authorial self-loathing.

Then the "Sister Species" decide to forcibly remake human civilization in "The Great Transition."   This was a literal Mao-style Cultural Revolution.  To hear the pitch describe it:

"They altered religious texts, did away with megacorporations, and temporarily disallowed males from filling political positions (the Thren being formerly matriarchal turned egalitarian, and the Murai being a genderless species suspected the patriarchal nature of the Human Empire to have contributed to the worst of its atrocities). "

JEE-ZUS. There was no way that was voluntary. The way it's described conjures up images of Cisgender men being rounded up and forced into gender-conversion camps to "cure" their "maleness."  Conquering a people and forcibly altering their culture to conform to what you want it to be, gee there's another word for that: Genocide.  I guess it's okay when we do it.

Just when you thought it couldn't get worse: it does.

The Supercomputer the Human Empire created to direct our military was reprogrammed and turned into an absolute despot a totally fair and impartial and saintly distributor of humanity's resources and director of our internal affairs.

The name of this overlord: "The Mother of Steel"

JESUS
TAPDANCING
CHRIST

So basically you're playing as SCUM Manifesto Stalinists in a future where the Great Leap Forward has happened.  I guarantee  you that one of the primary antagonists will be a faction of evil reactionaries who *checks notes* want the freedom to express their gender identity.  Which is bad because they're cisgender men.

The fundamental lack of self-awareness on display here is truly stunning. Both from the Author and from the people who backed this thing.  It's like an infinitely long train derailing.

Honestly, I am rather excited to see where this goes.  I'll never pay a cent for it, but I'll gladly sit back popcorn in hand and watch the fireworks.

This is straight up the Portland Tankie version of MyFarOg or Ra-Ho-Wa.  ;D

Oh my, who would have guessed they would write their genocidal fiction into a "game"?

Archived the KS so it can't be memory holled.

https://archive.is/YEUnZ (https://archive.is/YEUnZ)

Sounds like a Sci-fi with history written by the victors that would be both strange and alien for players to interact with.

Dude Star Trek was/is considered commi fantasy where the Federation is basically fascist. It's the backbone of Utopian Sci-fi that all is not perfect even if the original authors intended it to be.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 01:25:00 PM
Sounds like a Sci-fi with history written by the victors that would be both strange and alien for players to interact with.

Dude Star Trek was/is considered commi fantasy where the Federation is basically fascist. It's the backbone of Utopian Sci-fi that all is not perfect even if the original authors intended it to be.

ST is commie fantasy only for commie addled minds. It's capitalistic, meritocratic even with replicators because there's still thing replicators can't replicate.

It's also for individual freedom, free speech and fights against the borg, who ARE the commie wet dream.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 01:25:00 PM
Sounds like a Sci-fi with history written by the victors that would be both strange and alien for players to interact with.

Dude Star Trek was/is considered commi fantasy where the Federation is basically fascist. It's the backbone of Utopian Sci-fi that all is not perfect even if the original authors intended it to be.

ST is commie fantasy only for commie addled minds. It's capitalistic, meritocratic even with replicators because there's still thing replicators can't replicate.

It's also for individual freedom, free speech and fights against the borg, who ARE the commie wet dream.

Bro they don't even have money in human society and you're projecting capitalist values on them?

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 02:00:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 01:25:00 PM
Sounds like a Sci-fi with history written by the victors that would be both strange and alien for players to interact with.

Dude Star Trek was/is considered commi fantasy where the Federation is basically fascist. It's the backbone of Utopian Sci-fi that all is not perfect even if the original authors intended it to be.

ST is commie fantasy only for commie addled minds. It's capitalistic, meritocratic even with replicators because there's still thing replicators can't replicate.

It's also for individual freedom, free speech and fights against the borg, who ARE the commie wet dream.

Bro they don't even have money in human society and you're projecting capitalist values on them?

Bro they totally have money.

You need to say "in human society" and yet:

The Federation and money

Outside of Earth, money and other forms of currency were still used in the 23rd and 24th century, by the Federation itself, individual Humans, and other Federation species. One form of such currency was the Federation credit.

The Human philanthropist Carter Winston acquired a vast personal fortune during the late 23rd century. (TAS: "The Survivor")

In 2368, a Vulcan master doubled the price of a meditation lamp upon learning that Tuvok and Kathryn Janeway were Starfleet officers. (VOY: "The Gift")

Notably, the crew of the USS Voyager, faced with severe resource limitations after being flung into the Delta Quadrant, treated rations on replicator and holodeck use as currency and traded these among themselves. (VOY: "The Cloud", "Twisted", "Parturition", "Meld", "The Chute")

Bartender Quark had repeated financial interactions with Federation personnel. On numerous occasions, Starfleet officers gambled to win latinum at Quark's, including Julian Bashir, Thomas Riker, and Jadzia Dax. (DS9: "Statistical Probabilities", "Playing God", "Business as Usual", "Change of Heart", "Defiant"; TNG: "Firstborn") His bar also routinely extended credit to its patrons, including Federation citizens and members of Starfleet. (DS9: "Little Green Men"; VOY: "Caretaker") In 2372, he sold Quark's Treasure – a damaged Ferengi shuttle which had belonged to him – for scrap after it was disabled in the Sol system, and was given enough to cover passage back to Deep Space 9. (DS9: "Little Green Men") Later that year, Benjamin Sisko threatened Quark to collect on five years' "back rent" that was unpaid, though the actual motivation behind the threat was not fiscal. (DS9: "Bar Association") Quark later stated that he was in debt to some unnamed Humans, but considered defaulting on them a trivial matter. (DS9: "Body Parts") In 2373, he indirectly caused damage to a cargo bay, and was informed that he would have to bear the burden for the repairs, though it was not clear if this burden was financial in nature. (DS9: "Business as Usual") When Quark rescued Gaila from a Federation starbase after he was arrested on Thalos VI, he had to pay a fine before he could be released. (DS9: "The Magnificent Ferengi")
It was not specified that the fine was owed or paid to Starfleet or the Federation.
Other mentions

    Sometime in the 2250s, Harcourt Fenton Mudd programmed a number of android duplicates of himself with the phrase "if I had any money, I'd be sipping jippers on a beach somewhere." (ST: "The Escape Artist")

    Captain Kirk offered to reimburse a group of miners on Rigel XII for lithium crystals in 2266, but he was rebuffed in favor of bartering for Mudd's women. (TOS: "Mudd's Women")

    In 2285, Leonard McCoy wanted to pay a smuggler to transport him to the Genesis Planet. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)

    In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth at Farpoint Station and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

    That same year, while playing the role of the title character in a Dixon Hill simulation, Picard stated a rate of $20 a day plus expenses to Jessica Bradley, who was convinced that someone was trying to kill her. She accepted and gave him a "c-note," or $100, as an advance. Later in the simulation, he wished to purchase a newspaper but did not have any money, and was told by the vendor that he could catch him next time. (TNG: "The Big Goodbye")

    In 2366, Jean-Luc Picard purchased a Horga'hn on Risa. (TNG: "Captain's Holiday")

    In 2368, Commander William T. Riker tried to get information out of Amarie. She complimented him on her husband and told him to "drop a few coins" in her jar. He told her that he did not carry any money, but managed to tempt her by teaching her a song. (TNG: "Unification II")

    In 2370, when Lieutenant Worf and his son Alexander Rozhenko visited the Klingon outpost on Maranga IV, Alexander came to Worf asking for money, stating that he could see Molor's head in a box for 50 darseks. Worf replied that the man who told him this was just trying to take his money. (TNG: "Firstborn")

    As of the 24th century, the Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX had a market economy that fluctuated in value. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?")

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:08:16 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 02:00:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 01:25:00 PM
Sounds like a Sci-fi with history written by the victors that would be both strange and alien for players to interact with.

Dude Star Trek was/is considered commi fantasy where the Federation is basically fascist. It's the backbone of Utopian Sci-fi that all is not perfect even if the original authors intended it to be.

ST is commie fantasy only for commie addled minds. It's capitalistic, meritocratic even with replicators because there's still thing replicators can't replicate.

It's also for individual freedom, free speech and fights against the borg, who ARE the commie wet dream.

Bro they don't even have money in human society and you're projecting capitalist values on them?

Bro they totally have money.

You need to say "in human society" and yet:

Which I did. Human society didn't have money. A bunch of examples of non-human societies having money does not change that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:08:16 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 02:00:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 01:25:00 PM
Sounds like a Sci-fi with history written by the victors that would be both strange and alien for players to interact with.

Dude Star Trek was/is considered commi fantasy where the Federation is basically fascist. It's the backbone of Utopian Sci-fi that all is not perfect even if the original authors intended it to be.

ST is commie fantasy only for commie addled minds. It's capitalistic, meritocratic even with replicators because there's still thing replicators can't replicate.

It's also for individual freedom, free speech and fights against the borg, who ARE the commie wet dream.

Bro they don't even have money in human society and you're projecting capitalist values on them?

Bro they totally have money.

You need to say "in human society" and yet:

The Federation and money

Outside of Earth, money and other forms of currency were still used in the 23rd and 24th century, by the Federation itself, individual Humans, and other Federation species. One form of such currency was the Federation credit.

The Human philanthropist Carter Winston acquired a vast personal fortune during the late 23rd century. (TAS: "The Survivor")

In 2368, a Vulcan master doubled the price of a meditation lamp upon learning that Tuvok and Kathryn Janeway were Starfleet officers. (VOY: "The Gift")

Notably, the crew of the USS Voyager, faced with severe resource limitations after being flung into the Delta Quadrant, treated rations on replicator and holodeck use as currency and traded these among themselves. (VOY: "The Cloud", "Twisted", "Parturition", "Meld", "The Chute")

Bartender Quark had repeated financial interactions with Federation personnel. On numerous occasions, Starfleet officers gambled to win latinum at Quark's, including Julian Bashir, Thomas Riker, and Jadzia Dax. (DS9: "Statistical Probabilities", "Playing God", "Business as Usual", "Change of Heart", "Defiant"; TNG: "Firstborn") His bar also routinely extended credit to its patrons, including Federation citizens and members of Starfleet. (DS9: "Little Green Men"; VOY: "Caretaker") In 2372, he sold Quark's Treasure – a damaged Ferengi shuttle which had belonged to him – for scrap after it was disabled in the Sol system, and was given enough to cover passage back to Deep Space 9. (DS9: "Little Green Men") Later that year, Benjamin Sisko threatened Quark to collect on five years' "back rent" that was unpaid, though the actual motivation behind the threat was not fiscal. (DS9: "Bar Association") Quark later stated that he was in debt to some unnamed Humans, but considered defaulting on them a trivial matter. (DS9: "Body Parts") In 2373, he indirectly caused damage to a cargo bay, and was informed that he would have to bear the burden for the repairs, though it was not clear if this burden was financial in nature. (DS9: "Business as Usual") When Quark rescued Gaila from a Federation starbase after he was arrested on Thalos VI, he had to pay a fine before he could be released. (DS9: "The Magnificent Ferengi")
It was not specified that the fine was owed or paid to Starfleet or the Federation.
Other mentions

    Sometime in the 2250s, Harcourt Fenton Mudd programmed a number of android duplicates of himself with the phrase "if I had any money, I'd be sipping jippers on a beach somewhere." (ST: "The Escape Artist")

    Captain Kirk offered to reimburse a group of miners on Rigel XII for lithium crystals in 2266, but he was rebuffed in favor of bartering for Mudd's women. (TOS: "Mudd's Women")

    In 2285, Leonard McCoy wanted to pay a smuggler to transport him to the Genesis Planet. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)

    In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth at Farpoint Station and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

    That same year, while playing the role of the title character in a Dixon Hill simulation, Picard stated a rate of $20 a day plus expenses to Jessica Bradley, who was convinced that someone was trying to kill her. She accepted and gave him a "c-note," or $100, as an advance. Later in the simulation, he wished to purchase a newspaper but did not have any money, and was told by the vendor that he could catch him next time. (TNG: "The Big Goodbye")

I was with you up to this part. I don't think a fictional story on a holodeck referencing money means the Federation uses it anymore.

QuoteIn 2366, Jean-Luc Picard purchased a Horga'hn on Risa. (TNG: "Captain's Holiday")

    In 2368, Commander William T. Riker tried to get information out of Amarie. She complimented him on her husband and told him to "drop a few coins" in her jar. He told her that he did not carry any money, but managed to tempt her by teaching her a song. (TNG: "Unification II")

    In 2370, when Lieutenant Worf and his son Alexander Rozhenko visited the Klingon outpost on Maranga IV, Alexander came to Worf asking for money, stating that he could see Molor's head in a box for 50 darseks. Worf replied that the man who told him this was just trying to take his money. (TNG: "Firstborn")

    As of the 24th century, the Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX had a market economy that fluctuated in value. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?")

Some alien societies still use money. The Ferengi for a notable example of still having currency in a world full of Replicators.

But we have numerous incidents after TOS where the Federation characters declare that they don't use money anymore. I chalk it up to Roddenberry being naieve about currency, Capitalism, and hand waving away exactly how they "don't use money anymore". And subsequent writers scratching their heads and going "What the fuck is this shit?"

Quote from: Torque2100 on April 28, 2021, 12:16:04 PM
So I was browsing reddit today because I like pain some decent people still hang out there when this little gem popped into my feed:

ChangedStars, the richly worldbuilt queer-themed feminist scifi TTRPG set in a post-war interspecies Union I'm illustrating & lorecrafting is live on Kickstarter! (https://www.reddit.com/r/scifirpgs/comments/mzzpfd/changedstars_the_richly_worldbuilt_queerthemed/)

I read that as "Lovecrafting" and said "Wait?  WHAT?"  ;D

Off topic. But ST and especially TNG ran off a thing called Credits. Credits seemed to be something you got extra for actually doing stuff. Be in working, farming, whatever. Seemed to be mostly used for luxuries from the rare few examples can recall. Its not exactly money. But seems to get spent on stuff.

Dilithium seemed to be another form of almost currency. But barter seemed the main thing going at least in TOS and occasionally in TNG.

As for this, to use BGGs wording,  'game'... Does not surprise me at all.

In fact it reads like its tailr made for outrage marketing by ticking off pretty much every box possible to get people to complain. And here we have a thread. Free Advertising is the name of the game. More people will back it just to see what a train wreck it is.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2021, 12:18:51 PM
Someone tell 4chan, because this looks like fucking comedy gold. I haven't laughed this hard since Thirsty Sword Lesbians!

Dont give them what they want.

Quote from: Omega on April 28, 2021, 02:34:21 PM
Off topic. But ST and especially TNG ran off a thing called Credits. Credits seemed to be something you got extra for actually doing stuff. Be in working, farming, whatever. Seemed to be mostly used for luxuries from the rare few examples can recall. Its not exactly money. But seems to get spent on stuff.

Dilithium seemed to be another form of almost currency. But barter seemed the main thing going at least in TOS and occasionally in TNG.

As for this, to use BGGs wording,  'game'... Does not surprise me at all.

In fact it reads like its tailr made for outrage marketing by ticking off pretty much every box possible to get people to complain. And here we have a thread. Free Advertising is the name of the game. More people will back it just to see what a train wreck it is.

Credits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

As for this "game" it reads as genocidal porn.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2021, 02:29:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:08:16 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 02:00:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 01:25:00 PM
Sounds like a Sci-fi with history written by the victors that would be both strange and alien for players to interact with.

Dude Star Trek was/is considered commi fantasy where the Federation is basically fascist. It's the backbone of Utopian Sci-fi that all is not perfect even if the original authors intended it to be.

ST is commie fantasy only for commie addled minds. It's capitalistic, meritocratic even with replicators because there's still thing replicators can't replicate.

It's also for individual freedom, free speech and fights against the borg, who ARE the commie wet dream.

Bro they don't even have money in human society and you're projecting capitalist values on them?

Bro they totally have money.

You need to say "in human society" and yet:

The Federation and money

Outside of Earth, money and other forms of currency were still used in the 23rd and 24th century, by the Federation itself, individual Humans, and other Federation species. One form of such currency was the Federation credit.

The Human philanthropist Carter Winston acquired a vast personal fortune during the late 23rd century. (TAS: "The Survivor")

In 2368, a Vulcan master doubled the price of a meditation lamp upon learning that Tuvok and Kathryn Janeway were Starfleet officers. (VOY: "The Gift")

Notably, the crew of the USS Voyager, faced with severe resource limitations after being flung into the Delta Quadrant, treated rations on replicator and holodeck use as currency and traded these among themselves. (VOY: "The Cloud", "Twisted", "Parturition", "Meld", "The Chute")

Bartender Quark had repeated financial interactions with Federation personnel. On numerous occasions, Starfleet officers gambled to win latinum at Quark's, including Julian Bashir, Thomas Riker, and Jadzia Dax. (DS9: "Statistical Probabilities", "Playing God", "Business as Usual", "Change of Heart", "Defiant"; TNG: "Firstborn") His bar also routinely extended credit to its patrons, including Federation citizens and members of Starfleet. (DS9: "Little Green Men"; VOY: "Caretaker") In 2372, he sold Quark's Treasure – a damaged Ferengi shuttle which had belonged to him – for scrap after it was disabled in the Sol system, and was given enough to cover passage back to Deep Space 9. (DS9: "Little Green Men") Later that year, Benjamin Sisko threatened Quark to collect on five years' "back rent" that was unpaid, though the actual motivation behind the threat was not fiscal. (DS9: "Bar Association") Quark later stated that he was in debt to some unnamed Humans, but considered defaulting on them a trivial matter. (DS9: "Body Parts") In 2373, he indirectly caused damage to a cargo bay, and was informed that he would have to bear the burden for the repairs, though it was not clear if this burden was financial in nature. (DS9: "Business as Usual") When Quark rescued Gaila from a Federation starbase after he was arrested on Thalos VI, he had to pay a fine before he could be released. (DS9: "The Magnificent Ferengi")
It was not specified that the fine was owed or paid to Starfleet or the Federation.
Other mentions

    Sometime in the 2250s, Harcourt Fenton Mudd programmed a number of android duplicates of himself with the phrase "if I had any money, I'd be sipping jippers on a beach somewhere." (ST: "The Escape Artist")

    Captain Kirk offered to reimburse a group of miners on Rigel XII for lithium crystals in 2266, but he was rebuffed in favor of bartering for Mudd's women. (TOS: "Mudd's Women")

    In 2285, Leonard McCoy wanted to pay a smuggler to transport him to the Genesis Planet. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)

    In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth at Farpoint Station and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

    That same year, while playing the role of the title character in a Dixon Hill simulation, Picard stated a rate of $20 a day plus expenses to Jessica Bradley, who was convinced that someone was trying to kill her. She accepted and gave him a "c-note," or $100, as an advance. Later in the simulation, he wished to purchase a newspaper but did not have any money, and was told by the vendor that he could catch him next time. (TNG: "The Big Goodbye")

I was with you up to this part. I don't think a fictional story on a holodeck referencing money means the Federation uses it anymore.

QuoteIn 2366, Jean-Luc Picard purchased a Horga'hn on Risa. (TNG: "Captain's Holiday")

    In 2368, Commander William T. Riker tried to get information out of Amarie. She complimented him on her husband and told him to "drop a few coins" in her jar. He told her that he did not carry any money, but managed to tempt her by teaching her a song. (TNG: "Unification II")

    In 2370, when Lieutenant Worf and his son Alexander Rozhenko visited the Klingon outpost on Maranga IV, Alexander came to Worf asking for money, stating that he could see Molor's head in a box for 50 darseks. Worf replied that the man who told him this was just trying to take his money. (TNG: "Firstborn")

    As of the 24th century, the Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX had a market economy that fluctuated in value. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?")

Some alien societies still use money. The Ferengi for a notable example of still having currency in a world full of Replicators.

But we have numerous incidents after TOS where the Federation characters declare that they don't use money anymore. I chalk it up to Roddenberry being naieve about currency, Capitalism, and hand waving away exactly how they "don't use money anymore". And subsequent writers scratching their heads and going "What the fuck is this shit?"

But well before that it is established the federation still uses money, they call it credits.

As for "evolving" beyond money... A society that needs to rely on bartering when dealing with other societies can hardly call itself more "evolved".

Just like this "game" can't hardly call itself anything but genocidal porn.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:40:32 PM
Credits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

Are the social credits of dearly beloved leader Xi a type of money?

Star Trek has always been terribly, terribly schizophrenic about this sort of thing. Diane Duane's novel Spock's World has perfectly good references to using money (Kirk pays his tab at the tavern and inn he was staying at when the book starts, McCoy remarks on how he signed up for a language course 'on his own dime').

IMO, it got worse in TNG when the writers realized a post-scarcity economy would look very, very different. They really should've spent more time fiddling with that. There's an amusing EU novel where the businessman the Enterprise crew thawed out from cryostorage makes a return; evidently the Federation hired him on because they needed expert advice in dealing in capitalist societies, particularly the Ferengi.

Quote from: Pat on April 28, 2021, 03:13:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:40:32 PM
Credits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

Are the social credits of dearly beloved leader Xi a type of money?

Does it allow you more access to items/places/influence than people with less social credit?

Quote from: Pat on April 28, 2021, 03:13:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:40:32 PM
Credits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

Are the social credits of dearly beloved leader Xi a type of money?

In socialist circles, reputation base economies are declared capitalism by a different name. Or in other words, rep economies are a hard-right conservative version of socialism.

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 28, 2021, 03:22:33 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 28, 2021, 03:13:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:40:32 PM
Credits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

Are the social credits of dearly beloved leader Xi a type of money?

Does it allow you more access to items/places/influence than people with less social credit?

Of course.

Quote from: This Guy on April 28, 2021, 12:18:11 PM
"funded in five hours" motherfucker you only asked for 5K

Another crowdfunded woke product that will never been fulfilled.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2021, 12:18:51 PM
Someone tell 4chan, because this looks like fucking comedy gold. I haven't laughed this hard since Thirsty Sword Lesbians!

I thought this was about Thirsty Sword Lesbians when I started reading the OP, then suddenly realized someone else had had the glorious idea of doing a silly qUeEr space RPG, only more maniacal in its conception.

Welp someone told 4chan. (https://boards.4channel.org/tg/thread/78905141/changed-stars-the-tankie-version-of-rahowa)

Pass the popcorn.

Quote from: Torque2100 on April 28, 2021, 03:48:14 PM
Welp someone told 4chan. (https://boards.4channel.org/tg/thread/78905141/changed-stars-the-tankie-version-of-rahowa)

Pass the popcorn.

It wasn't me.

I wish it was me, but it wasn't.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2021, 03:39:51 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 28, 2021, 12:18:11 PM
"funded in five hours" motherfucker you only asked for 5K

Another crowdfunded woke product that will never been fulfilled.

I got no stats on that but goddamn don't tout your achievement in your ads when you coulda gotten the same result from a payday lender.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2021, 03:39:51 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 28, 2021, 12:18:11 PM
"funded in five hours" motherfucker you only asked for 5K

Another crowdfunded woke product that will never been fulfilled.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2021, 12:18:51 PM
Someone tell 4chan, because this looks like fucking comedy gold. I haven't laughed this hard since Thirsty Sword Lesbians!

I thought this was about Thirsty Sword Lesbians when I started reading the OP, then suddenly realized someone else had had the glorious idea of doing a silly qUeEr space RPG, only more maniacal in its conception.

Are the swords thirsty for lesbians? are the swords thirsty and lesbians? are the lesbians thirsty for swords? I'm confused.

Quote from: Omega on April 28, 2021, 02:34:21 PM
Off topic. But ST and especially TNG ran off a thing called Credits. Credits seemed to be something you got extra for actually doing stuff. Be in working, farming, whatever. Seemed to be mostly used for luxuries from the rare few examples can recall. Its not exactly money. But seems to get spent on stuff.

Dilithium seemed to be another form of almost currency. But barter seemed the main thing going at least in TOS and occasionally in TNG.

As for this, to use BGGs wording,  'game'... Does not surprise me at all.

In fact it reads like its tailr made for outrage marketing by ticking off pretty much every box possible to get people to complain. And here we have a thread. Free Advertising is the name of the game. More people will back it just to see what a train wreck it is.

Money is referenced fairly regularly in the original series.  There was an episode when a supporting character (e.g., not Sulu, Scotty, etc.) had the helm and he remarked that he "bet Credits to navy beans" that an enemy was about to do something.  The fellow who sold tribbles, in "The Trouble With Tribbles" had a considerable bar tab he'd run up.  As mentioned, McCoy bribed someone credits to smuggle him to the Genesis Planet, in ST3.  The list goes on and on.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2021, 05:22:35 PM

Quote from: Torque2100 on April 28, 2021, 03:48:14 PM
Welp someone told 4chan. (https://boards.4channel.org/tg/thread/78905141/changed-stars-the-tankie-version-of-rahowa)

Pass the popcorn.

It wasn't me.

I wish it was me, but it wasn't.

Their response was pretty tepid tbh.  Now, if /pol/ got ahold of it instead of /tg/...

Money used to exist in TOS and was phased out by TNG because most writers don't understand economics.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 28, 2021, 06:27:20 PM
Money is referenced fairly regularly in the original series.  There was an episode when a supporting character (e.g., not Sulu, Scotty, etc.) had the helm and he remarked that he "bet Credits to navy beans" that an enemy was about to do something.  The fellow who sold tribbles, in "The Trouble With Tribbles" had a considerable bar tab he'd run up.  As mentioned, McCoy bribed someone credits to smuggle him to the Genesis Planet, in ST3.  The list goes on and on.

Thats the thing. Its not money in the normal sense of someone minting the stuff and its in limited quantities. Its something you get for, well, doing stuff. Exactly what credits though is up for debate but they are not actual coin. At least not usually. TNG in particular suffered from writers changing stuff, because. So odds are somewhere in some episode someone IS paying with coin.

Outside the Federation all bets are off. Barter seems the main 'coin' of the realm. Find what someone wants in order to get something you want.

Quote from: Omega on April 28, 2021, 08:42:00 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 28, 2021, 06:27:20 PM
Money is referenced fairly regularly in the original series.  There was an episode when a supporting character (e.g., not Sulu, Scotty, etc.) had the helm and he remarked that he "bet Credits to navy beans" that an enemy was about to do something.  The fellow who sold tribbles, in "The Trouble With Tribbles" had a considerable bar tab he'd run up.  As mentioned, McCoy bribed someone credits to smuggle him to the Genesis Planet, in ST3.  The list goes on and on.

Thats the thing. Its not money in the normal sense of someone minting the stuff and its in limited quantities. Its something you get for, well, doing stuff. Exactly what credits though is up for debate but they are not actual coin. At least not usually. TNG in particular suffered from writers changing stuff, because. So odds are somewhere in some episode someone IS paying with coin.

Outside the Federation all bets are off. Barter seems the main 'coin' of the realm. Find what someone wants in order to get something you want.

Money is a fixed unit of exchange to facilitate trading.

Well before coins we had money, sea-shells, cacao, feathers filled with gold dust just to name a few examples.

If we phased out all printed/minted money in favor of plastic debit cards ... Would that mean we no longer use money?

If we phased out all credit cards in favor of the chips implanted in our arms, would that mean we no longer have a credit system?

In México we are so smart we now use plastic bills, money made of plastic, harder to counterfeit, but it's neither coin nor paper, is it not money?

And all this is very relevant in RPGs, because I have seen time and again the missunderstanding of what constitutes both money and progres in futuristic settings:

Progress isn't going back to an inferior form of trading we call bartering. You want some eggs but need to sell a cow, I want some pork but only have eggs and the stuff only gets more complicated.

How many chickens to buy a cow? How many pigs? How many eggs to buy a quarter of milk? And if it's butter?

Money is easier to trade, to carry and thus much superior and evolved than bartering.

Quote from: Torque2100 on April 28, 2021, 12:16:04 PM
The Very first line is "The indomitable Human Empire vaulted itself majestically dick-first into space."

This sounds like the perfect setting for a roleplaying game: two evil alien races and a super computer to fight against?

Sign me up to launch dick first into space.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 06:52:00 PM
Money used to exist in TOS and was phased out by TNG because most writers don't understand economics.

If money is phased out in TNG then how come the Command staff spend so much time playing Poker?

Writers in TNG got rid of money because they didn't realize it was a useful tool for trade, and instead misattributed the love of money to the idea of miney at all. Its very silly.
I remember how in DS9 they had to run around trading stuff because the federation lacks a centralized currency l.

Quote from: Shasarak on April 28, 2021, 08:54:07 PM
If money is phased out in TNG then how come the Command staff spend so much time playing Poker?

Because its fun. They don't play for money there. At most for dares ir the like.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 08:56:32 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 28, 2021, 08:54:07 PM
If money is phased out in TNG then how come the Command staff spend so much time playing Poker?

Because its fun. They don't play for money there. At most for dares ir the like.

Strip Poker in Spaaaaaaaaaace!

Quote from: Omega on April 28, 2021, 08:42:00 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 28, 2021, 06:27:20 PM
Money is referenced fairly regularly in the original series.  There was an episode when a supporting character (e.g., not Sulu, Scotty, etc.) had the helm and he remarked that he "bet Credits to navy beans" that an enemy was about to do something.  The fellow who sold tribbles, in "The Trouble With Tribbles" had a considerable bar tab he'd run up.  As mentioned, McCoy bribed someone credits to smuggle him to the Genesis Planet, in ST3.  The list goes on and on.

Thats the thing. Its not money in the normal sense of someone minting the stuff and its in limited quantities. Its something you get for, well, doing stuff. Exactly what credits though is up for debate but they are not actual coin. At least not usually. TNG in particular suffered from writers changing stuff, because. So odds are somewhere in some episode someone IS paying with coin.

Outside the Federation all bets are off. Barter seems the main 'coin' of the realm. Find what someone wants in order to get something you want.

So they reverted to a barter society, requiring people to find out exactly what a specific person wants and then arranging a chain of trades to get it, in order to get the thing they desired. Instead of having a universal standard of value which can serve as a replacement for all those intermediate transactions, and allows people with disparate goods and needs to make direct exchanges even though neither has the specific good the other wants.

That sounds like the opposite of an improvement.

(https://i.imgur.com/P038Dd1.jpg)

The Thren look like they are stolen from a western porn artist.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 05:48:10 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2021, 03:39:51 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 28, 2021, 12:18:11 PM
"funded in five hours" motherfucker you only asked for 5K

Another crowdfunded woke product that will never been fulfilled.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2021, 12:18:51 PM
Someone tell 4chan, because this looks like fucking comedy gold. I haven't laughed this hard since Thirsty Sword Lesbians!

I thought this was about Thirsty Sword Lesbians when I started reading the OP, then suddenly realized someone else had had the glorious idea of doing a silly qUeEr space RPG, only more maniacal in its conception.

Are the swords thirsty for lesbians? are the swords thirsty and lesbians? are the lesbians thirsty for swords? I'm confused.

I have no clue what they're even on about with that title, but last checked lesbians aren't normally thirsty for swords. Though, now I'm told that not liking swords is transphobic so who knows?

Enjoy the past hilarity: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/thirsty-sword-lesbians-no-really/

Considering this thread and the Eclipse Phase one, I have to ask:

If you are playing a game because you like and support the politics of the game's setting, are you playing the game or just masturbating to the political fantasy and claiming it is activism?

Guys I say don't let these games rub you the wrong way and just ignore them. These are not games that will be played. SJWs will play 5e like everybody else and bitch about pronouns and lack of wheelchair access. These socjus games are just made to spite people like us and get a rise out of us.

So just let them roll pass you like dew on a leaf. Even laughing at this crap is giving it too much credit.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 10:57:03 PM
Guys I say don't let these games rub you the wrong way and just ignore them. These are not games that will be played. SJWs will play 5e like everybody else and bitch about pronouns and lack of wheelchair access. These socjus games are just made to spite people like us and get a rise out of us.

So just let them roll pass you like dew on a leaf. Even laughing at this crap is giving it too much credit.

Normally I would advocate this approach as well, but Changed Stars is shaping up to be such a hilarious trainwreck that I can't help but break out the Popcorn.

This is like F.A.T.A.L. levels of authorial tone-deafness.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 28, 2021, 10:37:46 PM
Considering this thread and the Eclipse Phase one, I have to ask:

If you are playing a game because you like and support the politics of the game's setting, are you playing the game or just masturbating to the political fantasy and claiming it is activism?

the game is that I masturbate to the political fantasy. it's a good game, always has a great climax with a depressing falling action

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 28, 2021, 10:37:46 PM
Considering this thread and the Eclipse Phase one, I have to ask:

If you are playing a game because you like and support the politics of the game's setting, are you playing the game or just masturbating to the political fantasy and claiming it is activism?

Personally I like playing in games where the setting have bad stuff you can fight and oppose.

It's not like I play Shadowrun or Cyberpunk because being a merc living outside of society and the thumb of the corporate overlords is good.
It's not because I think slavery and rape is good that I want slavery to be a part of the medieval/postapocalyptic world setting I am making.
The reason why you are rebels in Star wars is because while the empire promises Law and Order they also take away your Freedom.
You can't win (in the long run) against the dark forces in Ravenloft or Call of Cthulhu, but you sure can try.

You see something you disagree with it, and you (or rather your character) wants change

But these people make settings where they already live in their perfect worlds, their only struggle is to oppose those that try to change it.

Congrats, now they are the conservatives trying to keep the status quo.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:40:32 PMCredits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

I think that's the only way to really make post TOS work. Maybe there's an exchange rate built around a bunch of things that are in high demand but are not able to be replicated, or an energy based 'mega-credit' or the like. Even in a society in which you can replicate an unlimited number of blueberry muffins, you only have one original Mona Lisa, a limited number of houses/lots on a California skyline, and one Sisko restaurant.

Quote from: Lynn on April 30, 2021, 12:53:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:40:32 PMCredits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

I think that's the only way to really make post TOS work. Maybe there's an exchange rate built around a bunch of things that are in high demand but are not able to be replicated, or an energy based 'mega-credit' or the like. Even in a society in which you can replicate an unlimited number of blueberry muffins, you only have one original Mona Lisa, a limited number of houses/lots on a California skyline, and one Sisko restaurant.

Many Sci-Fi RPGs already do this, because there will always be scarcity, you might be able to solve it in almost everything, but you can't solve it in everything.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 12:57:15 PM

Quote from: Lynn on April 30, 2021, 12:53:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:40:32 PMCredits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

I think that's the only way to really make post TOS work. Maybe there's an exchange rate built around a bunch of things that are in high demand but are not able to be replicated, or an energy based 'mega-credit' or the like. Even in a society in which you can replicate an unlimited number of blueberry muffins, you only have one original Mona Lisa, a limited number of houses/lots on a California skyline, and one Sisko restaurant.

Many Sci-Fi RPGs already do this, because there will always be scarcity, you might be able to solve it in almost everything, but you can't solve it in everything.

If we ever find ourselves in a far more equable reputation based economy, then I'll go back to being a conservative "capitalist" that thinks the current system is good enough.

Sure hardcore socialist think rep economies are just capitalism, but it's a practical step in the right direction.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 01:33:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 12:57:15 PM

Quote from: Lynn on April 30, 2021, 12:53:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:40:32 PMCredits ARE money tho. Just imagine all our dearly beloved leaders just stoped printing money altogether and instead of several different currencies we had the earth credit. not paper, not coins but electronically stored in your account. It is still money.

I think that's the only way to really make post TOS work. Maybe there's an exchange rate built around a bunch of things that are in high demand but are not able to be replicated, or an energy based 'mega-credit' or the like. Even in a society in which you can replicate an unlimited number of blueberry muffins, you only have one original Mona Lisa, a limited number of houses/lots on a California skyline, and one Sisko restaurant.

Many Sci-Fi RPGs already do this, because there will always be scarcity, you might be able to solve it in almost everything, but you can't solve it in everything.

If we ever find ourselves in a far more equable reputation based economy, then I'll go back to being a conservative "capitalist" that thinks the current system is good enough.

Sure hardcore socialist think rep economies are just capitalism, but it's a practical step in the right direction.

Who sets the reputation? China's social score system IS a reputation economy. I wouldn't want to live in a place with that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 01:44:56 PMWho sets the reputation? China's social score system IS a reputation economy. I wouldn't want to live in a place with that.

The idea is that you have access to a certain quality of resources based on your reputation. So if you were highly valued, you could have that beach front property, while a someone will no contributions to society could only have a house.

The general thought behind rep economies is that your rep goes up as individual people rate you. Where the opinion of highly reputable people is worth more than someone with less rep. The balancing of that algorithm and making sure less public works are weight appropriately would be an endless job requiring constant improvement. The assumption I have seen is that virtual intelligences would have a full-time job keeping everything straight and making sure people don't over-pull a resource they qualify for without a reputation loss.

For example, a Game store owner that let people play games in his store would receive rep increases from everyone that approved of that practices and probably has a higher reputation score than a Game store which did not allow anyone to play in it. In our current society, the latter Game store owner has the advantage if he sells more product, while the other one has to hope that letting a group play D&D in his backroom for years translates to sales at some point or he just loses money even though his contribution to the community is higher than the former Game store owner.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 02:10:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 01:44:56 PMWho sets the reputation? China's social score system IS a reputation economy. I wouldn't want to live in a place with that.

The idea is that you have access to a certain quality of resources based on your reputation. So if you were highly valued, you could have that beach front property, while a someone will no contributions to society could only have a house.

The general thought behind rep economies is that your rep goes up as individual people rate you. Where the opinion of highly reputable people is worth more than someone with less rep. The balancing of that algorithm and making sure less public works are weight appropriately would be an endless job requiring constant improvement. The assumption I have seen is that virtual intelligences would have a full-time job keeping everything straight and making sure people don't over-pull a resource they qualify for without a reputation loss.

For example, a Game store owner that let people play games in his store would receive rep increases from everyone that approved of that practices and probably has a higher reputation score than a Game store which did not allow anyone to play in it. In our current society, the latter Game store owner has the advantage if he sells more product, while the other one has to hope that letting a group play D&D in his backroom for years translates to sales at some point or he just loses money even though his contribution to the community is higher than the former Game store owner.

Show me how you plan to keep such a system from being manipulated or 'gamed', not to mention that any 'overarching authority' placed over it will be able to manipulate it at will.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 30, 2021, 02:20:46 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 02:10:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 01:44:56 PMWho sets the reputation? China's social score system IS a reputation economy. I wouldn't want to live in a place with that.

The idea is that you have access to a certain quality of resources based on your reputation. So if you were highly valued, you could have that beach front property, while a someone will no contributions to society could only have a house.

The general thought behind rep economies is that your rep goes up as individual people rate you. Where the opinion of highly reputable people is worth more than someone with less rep. The balancing of that algorithm and making sure less public works are weight appropriately would be an endless job requiring constant improvement. The assumption I have seen is that virtual intelligences would have a full-time job keeping everything straight and making sure people don't over-pull a resource they qualify for without a reputation loss.

For example, a Game store owner that let people play games in his store would receive rep increases from everyone that approved of that practices and probably has a higher reputation score than a Game store which did not allow anyone to play in it. In our current society, the latter Game store owner has the advantage if he sells more product, while the other one has to hope that letting a group play D&D in his backroom for years translates to sales at some point or he just loses money even though his contribution to the community is higher than the former Game store owner.

Show me how you plan to keep such a system from being manipulated or 'gamed', not to mention that any 'overarching authority' placed over it will be able to manipulate it at will.

You try to do so, but you don't succeed.

It's not like our current system isn't gamed. An actual practical system is going to have flaws and corruption.

One of the counters is that the people placed in key positions in the system will have to earn a high reputation in the first place. Ideally this filters out a lot of assholes. The less assholes in charge, the less likely assholes will be able to game the system because the non-assholes will create rules to stop them. Not a perfect solution, but fundamentally democratic in nature.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 02:10:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 01:44:56 PMWho sets the reputation? China's social score system IS a reputation economy. I wouldn't want to live in a place with that.

The idea is that you have access to a certain quality of resources based on your reputation. So if you were highly valued, you could have that beach front property, while a someone will no contributions to society could only have a house.

The general thought behind rep economies is that your rep goes up as individual people rate you. Where the opinion of highly reputable people is worth more than someone with less rep. The balancing of that algorithm and making sure less public works are weight appropriately would be an endless job requiring constant improvement. The assumption I have seen is that virtual intelligences would have a full-time job keeping everything straight and making sure people don't over-pull a resource they qualify for without a reputation loss.

For example, a Game store owner that let people play games in his store would receive rep increases from everyone that approved of that practices and probably has a higher reputation score than a Game store which did not allow anyone to play in it. In our current society, the latter Game store owner has the advantage if he sells more product, while the other one has to hope that letting a group play D&D in his backroom for years translates to sales at some point or he just loses money even though his contribution to the community is higher than the former Game store owner.

We already have a system where those who contribute to society get richer, it's called free market capitalism. AND with paper/coin it also has something your system doesn't:

I can be a shitlord in the web and walk into a store, hand them my money in exchange for their product and we don't need to know jack shit about one another.

Your system will devolve into a puritanical rule where only that which the moral "majority" deem accetable will exist.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PMWe already have a system where those who contribute to society get richer, it's called free market capitalism. AND with paper/coin it also has something your system doesn't:

My capital gains and dividend statements disagree with you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
I can be a shitlord in the web and walk into a store, hand them my money in exchange for their product and we don't need to know jack shit about one another.

Amazon & DTRPG does that too.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
Your system will devolve into a puritanical rule where only that which the moral "majority" deem accetable will exist.

Oh that is a critique of the system. Everyone else can exist, but will have less worth if they personally buck against moral trends. Part of the algorithm corrections would be putting in tolerances for acceptable deviations. But settled issues like, "racism = bad" wouldn't be changed.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 06:52:00 PM
Money used to exist in TOS and was phased out by TNG because most writers don't understand economics.

When you have the tech to take dirt apart and turn it into food, clothing, housing, etc what happens to economics?

ST writers looked at how modern tech and automation has made many jobs obsolete and tried to profect that into the future, accepting that current cosioeconomic systems are not adapting to the changing technology in the world today.

Whenever i hear someone rightard saying " (Anyone who disagrees with me) doesn't understand economics." I hear someone admitting they don'tt get that technology is changing the world the old economic models were based on.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 02:10:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 01:44:56 PMWho sets the reputation? China's social score system IS a reputation economy. I wouldn't want to live in a place with that.

The idea is that you have access to a certain quality of resources based on your reputation. So if you were highly valued, you could have that beach front property, while a someone will no contributions to society could only have a house.

The general thought behind rep economies is that your rep goes up as individual people rate you. Where the opinion of highly reputable people is worth more than someone with less rep. The balancing of that algorithm and making sure less public works are weight appropriately would be an endless job requiring constant improvement. The assumption I have seen is that virtual intelligences would have a full-time job keeping everything straight and making sure people don't over-pull a resource they qualify for without a reputation loss.

For example, a Game store owner that let people play games in his store would receive rep increases from everyone that approved of that practices and probably has a higher reputation score than a Game store which did not allow anyone to play in it. In our current society, the latter Game store owner has the advantage if he sells more product, while the other one has to hope that letting a group play D&D in his backroom for years translates to sales at some point or he just loses money even though his contribution to the community is higher than the former Game store owner.

We already have a system where those who contribute to society get richer, it's called free market capitalism. AND with paper/coin it also has something your system doesn't:

I can be a shitlord in the web and walk into a store, hand them my money in exchange for their product and we don't need to know jack shit about one another.

Your system will devolve into a puritanical rule where only that which the moral "majority" deem accetable will exist.

Wow, what are you smoking? Please keep it the hell away from me.

In our modern system many people who work and contribute have next to no money, and almost all they get goes right to basic necessities. Meanwhile those born into positions of affluence have fortunes while doing very little if anything, and even people who cause great harm to many others get rich from doing it.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 02:56:05 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PMWe already have a system where those who contribute to society get richer, it's called free market capitalism. AND with paper/coin it also has something your system doesn't:

My capital gains and dividend statements disagree with you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
I can be a shitlord in the web and walk into a store, hand them my money in exchange for their product and we don't need to know jack shit about one another.

Amazon & DTRPG does that too.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
Your system will devolve into a puritanical rule where only that which the moral "majority" deem accetable will exist.

Oh that is a critique of the system. Everyone else can exist, but will have less worth if they personally buck against moral trends. Part of the algorithm corrections would be putting in tolerances for acceptable deviations. But settled issues like, "racism = bad" wouldn't be changed.

That is certainly a way to squash free thought and innovation. Any system based on what others "think" or "feel" about you is fundamentally morally and ethically corrupt, because it is not based on some tangible system of laws but rather on the current zeitgeist, which is wildly unpredictable, inconsistent and often (as the SJW's like to put it) on the wrong side of history. No thanks.

Quote from: shuddemell on April 30, 2021, 03:01:55 PMThat is certainly a way to squash free thought and innovation. Any system based on what others "think" or "feel" about you is fundamentally morally and ethically corrupt, because it is not based on some tangible system of laws but rather on the current zeitgeist, which is wildly unpredictable, inconsistent and often (as the SJW's like to put it) on the wrong side of history. No thanks.

Are you against free and fair democratic elections? You can say all those things and they can feel true, but the foundation of what makes the free world free is what others "think" or "feel" about politicians. Instead of right of blood or right of might, our leaders must win a popularity contest. It's not perfect, but I'll take it over feudalism.

So why not write your own SFRPG based on your views and try to kickstart it?

Create a scifi future setting where there are heroic straight conservative libertarian shitlords battling against the ravening hordes of libtards, SJWs, feminazis, LGBTQ monsters, socialists, communists, NAMBLA members, etc?

Maybe even call it "Shitlords of the stars!"

Quote from: matt swain on April 30, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
So why not write your own SFRPG based on your views and try to kickstart it?

Create a scifi future setting where there are heroic straight conservative libertarian shitlords battling against the ravening hordes of libtards, SJWs, feminazis, LGBTQ monsters, socialists, communists, NAMBLA members, etc?

Maybe even call it "Shitlords of the stars!"

40K already has Space Marines vs T'au

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:09:07 PM

Quote from: shuddemell on April 30, 2021, 03:01:55 PMThat is certainly a way to squash free thought and innovation. Any system based on what others "think" or "feel" about you is fundamentally morally and ethically corrupt, because it is not based on some tangible system of laws but rather on the current zeitgeist, which is wildly unpredictable, inconsistent and often (as the SJW's like to put it) on the wrong side of history. No thanks.

Are you against free and fair democratic elections? You can say all those things and they can feel true, but the foundation of what makes the free world free is what others "think" or "feel" about politicians. Instead of right of blood or right of might, our leaders must win a popularity contest. It's not perfect, but I'll take it over feudalism.

There's a difference between electing politicians through a (largely performative and highly influenced by the media) popularity contest to deal with bureaucratic nonsense behind the scenes while the rest of us (mostly...at least for now) carry on with our lives, and the quality of our lives being determined by the whims of the moronic mob.

Not that I have much faith in the democratic process regardless.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:42:56 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2021, 02:29:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 02:08:16 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 02:00:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2021, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 01:25:00 PM
Sounds like a Sci-fi with history written by the victors that would be both strange and alien for players to interact with.

Dude Star Trek was/is considered commi fantasy where the Federation is basically fascist. It's the backbone of Utopian Sci-fi that all is not perfect even if the original authors intended it to be.

ST is commie fantasy only for commie addled minds. It's capitalistic, meritocratic even with replicators because there's still thing replicators can't replicate.

It's also for individual freedom, free speech and fights against the borg, who ARE the commie wet dream.

Bro they don't even have money in human society and you're projecting capitalist values on them?

Bro they totally have money.

You need to say "in human society" and yet:

The Federation and money

Outside of Earth, money and other forms of currency were still used in the 23rd and 24th century, by the Federation itself, individual Humans, and other Federation species. One form of such currency was the Federation credit.

The Human philanthropist Carter Winston acquired a vast personal fortune during the late 23rd century. (TAS: "The Survivor")

In 2368, a Vulcan master doubled the price of a meditation lamp upon learning that Tuvok and Kathryn Janeway were Starfleet officers. (VOY: "The Gift")

Notably, the crew of the USS Voyager, faced with severe resource limitations after being flung into the Delta Quadrant, treated rations on replicator and holodeck use as currency and traded these among themselves. (VOY: "The Cloud", "Twisted", "Parturition", "Meld", "The Chute")

Bartender Quark had repeated financial interactions with Federation personnel. On numerous occasions, Starfleet officers gambled to win latinum at Quark's, including Julian Bashir, Thomas Riker, and Jadzia Dax. (DS9: "Statistical Probabilities", "Playing God", "Business as Usual", "Change of Heart", "Defiant"; TNG: "Firstborn") His bar also routinely extended credit to its patrons, including Federation citizens and members of Starfleet. (DS9: "Little Green Men"; VOY: "Caretaker") In 2372, he sold Quark's Treasure – a damaged Ferengi shuttle which had belonged to him – for scrap after it was disabled in the Sol system, and was given enough to cover passage back to Deep Space 9. (DS9: "Little Green Men") Later that year, Benjamin Sisko threatened Quark to collect on five years' "back rent" that was unpaid, though the actual motivation behind the threat was not fiscal. (DS9: "Bar Association") Quark later stated that he was in debt to some unnamed Humans, but considered defaulting on them a trivial matter. (DS9: "Body Parts") In 2373, he indirectly caused damage to a cargo bay, and was informed that he would have to bear the burden for the repairs, though it was not clear if this burden was financial in nature. (DS9: "Business as Usual") When Quark rescued Gaila from a Federation starbase after he was arrested on Thalos VI, he had to pay a fine before he could be released. (DS9: "The Magnificent Ferengi")
It was not specified that the fine was owed or paid to Starfleet or the Federation.
Other mentions

    Sometime in the 2250s, Harcourt Fenton Mudd programmed a number of android duplicates of himself with the phrase "if I had any money, I'd be sipping jippers on a beach somewhere." (ST: "The Escape Artist")

    Captain Kirk offered to reimburse a group of miners on Rigel XII for lithium crystals in 2266, but he was rebuffed in favor of bartering for Mudd's women. (TOS: "Mudd's Women")

    In 2285, Leonard McCoy wanted to pay a smuggler to transport him to the Genesis Planet. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)

    In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth at Farpoint Station and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

    That same year, while playing the role of the title character in a Dixon Hill simulation, Picard stated a rate of $20 a day plus expenses to Jessica Bradley, who was convinced that someone was trying to kill her. She accepted and gave him a "c-note," or $100, as an advance. Later in the simulation, he wished to purchase a newspaper but did not have any money, and was told by the vendor that he could catch him next time. (TNG: "The Big Goodbye")

I was with you up to this part. I don't think a fictional story on a holodeck referencing money means the Federation uses it anymore.

QuoteIn 2366, Jean-Luc Picard purchased a Horga'hn on Risa. (TNG: "Captain's Holiday")

    In 2368, Commander William T. Riker tried to get information out of Amarie. She complimented him on her husband and told him to "drop a few coins" in her jar. He told her that he did not carry any money, but managed to tempt her by teaching her a song. (TNG: "Unification II")

    In 2370, when Lieutenant Worf and his son Alexander Rozhenko visited the Klingon outpost on Maranga IV, Alexander came to Worf asking for money, stating that he could see Molor's head in a box for 50 darseks. Worf replied that the man who told him this was just trying to take his money. (TNG: "Firstborn")

    As of the 24th century, the Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX had a market economy that fluctuated in value. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?")

Some alien societies still use money. The Ferengi for a notable example of still having currency in a world full of Replicators.

But we have numerous incidents after TOS where the Federation characters declare that they don't use money anymore. I chalk it up to Roddenberry being naieve about currency, Capitalism, and hand waving away exactly how they "don't use money anymore". And subsequent writers scratching their heads and going "What the fuck is this shit?"

But well before that it is established the federation still uses money, they call it credits.

Yep. They say they use something like credits, and then baldly state they don't use money anymore. *shrug*

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 02:56:05 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PMWe already have a system where those who contribute to society get richer, it's called free market capitalism. AND with paper/coin it also has something your system doesn't:

My capital gains and dividend statements disagree with you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
I can be a shitlord in the web and walk into a store, hand them my money in exchange for their product and we don't need to know jack shit about one another.

Amazon & DTRPG does that too.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
Your system will devolve into a puritanical rule where only that which the moral "majority" deem accetable will exist.

Oh that is a critique of the system. Everyone else can exist, but will have less worth if they personally buck against moral trends. Part of the algorithm corrections would be putting in tolerances for acceptable deviations. But settled issues like, "racism = bad" wouldn't be changed.

Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.

Except they don't, Amazon bans books from those with badwrongthink, and DTRPG does too.

Who decides what 's racism?

Why should your morals decide who gets to live?

See? You don't have your utopian system and you're already condemning to death you deem unworthy. Now picture you with power and modeling such algorythm....

:-\

It would make for a great setting for a game like The Price of Freedom tho. PCs against the puritans. I would totally play that.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:09:07 PM

Quote from: shuddemell on April 30, 2021, 03:01:55 PMThat is certainly a way to squash free thought and innovation. Any system based on what others "think" or "feel" about you is fundamentally morally and ethically corrupt, because it is not based on some tangible system of laws but rather on the current zeitgeist, which is wildly unpredictable, inconsistent and often (as the SJW's like to put it) on the wrong side of history. No thanks.

Are you against free and fair democratic elections? You can say all those things and they can feel true, but the foundation of what makes the free world free is what others "think" or "feel" about politicians. Instead of right of blood or right of might, our leaders must win a popularity contest. It's not perfect, but I'll take it over feudalism.

Popularity contests are precisely why the United States is not a Democracy.

(https://images.slideplayer.com/26/8672441/slides/slide_28.jpg)

I think part of what I find so icky about these SJW settings is that they're masturbatory fantasies about what would happen if they got political power and metaphorically (or sometimes literally) hanged their opposition.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 03:19:58 PM
...and the quality of our lives being determined by the whims of the moronic mob.

The success of a small business.

Your employment status.

How much you are paid.

How much you have to pay for services.

Etc.

Much of you life is already subject to the whims of the moronic mob. Now imagine if wealth was tied directly to not seemingly like an asshole? Has your day-to-day interactions improved?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 03:36:45 PM

Popularity contests are precisely why the United States is not a Democracy.

Technology of the time was also a limiting factor. Even current communication technology would struggle to implement a direct democracy for 300 million+ people.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 03:36:45 PM
I think part of what I find so icky about these SJW settings is that they're masturbatory fantasies about what would happen if they got political power and metaphorically (or sometimes literally) hanged their opposition.

Idk, some political ideologies are "dead-ends" that only seem to prove that democracy must give way to autocrats in the near future. If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:01:14 PM
If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:01:14 PM
If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

You are easily scared and should consider seeking help for that.

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:01:14 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 03:36:45 PM

Popularity contests are precisely why the United States is not a Democracy.

Technology of the time was also a limiting factor. Even current communication technology would struggle to implement a direct democracy for 300 million+ people.

Technology is not an issue. The issue is when a majority infringes the rights of a minority. Full Stop.

Quote

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 03:36:45 PM
I think part of what I find so icky about these SJW settings is that they're masturbatory fantasies about what would happen if they got political power and metaphorically (or sometimes literally) hanged their opposition.

Idk, some political ideologies are "dead-ends" that only seem to prove that democracy must give way to autocrats in the near future. If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

Give it a few years, and the remainder will call their opponents unreasonable, rinse and repeat. All you'll be left with is Thanos in his hut after he snaps the last other person away.
RPGs are full of disagreeing factions contending with each other. The ickyness of something like Eclipse Phase is the idea that the author's pet ideology won, and now the world is super happy place, with a dash of conflict so the characters actually have something to do.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:51:42 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 03:19:58 PM
...and the quality of our lives being determined by the whims of the moronic mob.

The success of a small business.

Your employment status.

How much you are paid.

How much you have to pay for services.

Etc.

Much of you life is already subject to the whims of the moronic mob. Now imagine if wealth was tied directly to not seemingly like an asshole? Has your day-to-day interactions improved?

According to what cult?

That reads more and more like some sort of theocracy but with a secular cult at the center. Great for a Dystopian setting, not so much for IRL.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:20:28 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:51:42 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 03:19:58 PM
...and the quality of our lives being determined by the whims of the moronic mob.

The success of a small business.

Your employment status.

How much you are paid.

How much you have to pay for services.

Etc.

Much of you life is already subject to the whims of the moronic mob. Now imagine if wealth was tied directly to not seemingly like an asshole? Has your day-to-day interactions improved?

According to what cult?

That reads more and more like some sort of theocracy but with a secular cult at the center. Great for a Dystopian setting, not so much for IRL.

The one you're in now. No john you are the cult

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:01:14 PM
If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

I've got an idea, lets put him, This Guy and the Swain ina thread in Pundit's forum to fully flesh out their utopian system.

Take it verbatim and use it as the setting for a Dystopian RPG, The Price of Freedom sounds about right up their alley.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 04:17:45 PM
Give it a few years, and the remainder will call their opponents unreasonable, rinse and repeat. All you'll be left with is Thanos in his hut after he snaps the last other person away...

Yeah but then I can be the entrenched conservative wanting to maintain my ideal society. That's a win in my book.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:23:02 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:01:14 PM
If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

I've got an idea, lets put him, This Guy and the Swain ina thread in Pundit's forum to fully flesh out their utopian system.

Take it verbatim and use it as the setting for a Dystopian RPG, The Price of Freedom sounds about right up their alley.

Nova Praxis is already a Dystopian RPG setting offered in multiple systems.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:23:02 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:01:14 PM
If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

I've got an idea, lets put him, This Guy and the Swain ina thread in Pundit's forum to fully flesh out their utopian system.

Take it verbatim and use it as the setting for a Dystopian RPG, The Price of Freedom sounds about right up their alley.

Why on gods green earth would I ever want to develop something that you might enjoy using

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:25:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 04:17:45 PM
Give it a few years, and the remainder will call their opponents unreasonable, rinse and repeat. All you'll be left with is Thanos in his hut after he snaps the last other person away...

Yeah but then I can be the entrenched conservative wanting to maintain my ideal society. That's a win in my book.

You fascist. *Snap*

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:26:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:23:02 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:01:14 PM
If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

I've got an idea, lets put him, This Guy and the Swain ina thread in Pundit's forum to fully flesh out their utopian system.

Take it verbatim and use it as the setting for a Dystopian RPG, The Price of Freedom sounds about right up their alley.

Nova Praxis is already a Dystopian RPG setting offered in multiple systems.

Yeah, no, The Price of Freedom sounds like a perfect fit for that.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 04:28:18 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:25:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 04:17:45 PM
Give it a few years, and the remainder will call their opponents unreasonable, rinse and repeat. All you'll be left with is Thanos in his hut after he snaps the last other person away...

Yeah but then I can be the entrenched conservative wanting to maintain my ideal society. That's a win in my book.

You fascist. *Snap*

Oh man you had to use magic to change the status quo. It's like I benefitted most of my life from such circumstances before literal magic slew me.

Still a win.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:29:51 PMYeah, no, The Price of Freedom sounds like a perfect fit for that.

It would melt your mind to learn that actual socialist find the former Soviet Union to be far too conservative and right-leaning.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:29:51 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:26:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:23:02 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:01:14 PM
If I could Thanos snap the facist party away from the US, then the other party could split between the progressive half and the actual conservative half.
Half the US has an unreasonable understanding of what reasonable political opinions are, so any half-way coherent sci-fi setting has to address the that problem.

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

I've got an idea, lets put him, This Guy and the Swain ina thread in Pundit's forum to fully flesh out their utopian system.

Take it verbatim and use it as the setting for a Dystopian RPG, The Price of Freedom sounds about right up their alley.

Nova Praxis is already a Dystopian RPG setting offered in multiple systems.

Yeah, no, The Price of Freedom sounds like a perfect fit for that.

Price of Freedom is just tankie-wank. You wanna really get into the bones of that you're going to need to flesh out the ancoms, nazbols and socdems for political infighting, and then on your own side infighting among the resistance for petty personal bullshit.

Anyway if you're living in a failing quasi-narcostate what do you need dystopian escapism for?

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

None of us care about any of us, what's the issue? What, you gonna tell me the other fags on this board are actually meaningful to you?

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:51:42 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 03:19:58 PM
...and the quality of our lives being determined by the whims of the moronic mob.

The success of a small business.

Your employment status.

How much you are paid.

How much you have to pay for services.

Etc.

Much of you life is already subject to the whims of the moronic mob. Now imagine if wealth was tied directly to not seemingly like an asshole? Has your day-to-day interactions improved?

Yes, INDIRECTLY much of my life is already affected by the whims of the moronic mob, to a far higher degree that I would prefer. That doesn't mean that therefore it would be a grrreat idea to let them DIRECTLY dictate what the quality of my life should be.

And NO, people's wealth would not be directly tied to "not seemingly like an asshole", it would be directly tied to CONFORMING to whatever moronic norms the mob of mindless sheep has been brainwashed to believe that year.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 04:33:57 PMYes, INDIRECTLY much of my life is already affected by the whims of the moronic mob, to a far higher degree that I would prefer. That doesn't mean that therefore it would be a grrreat idea to let them DIRECTLY dictate what the quality of my life should be.

Is it so indirect?

Social skills and reputation are already essential to success. Some people manage to succeed while being overt assholes because their cliche is strong enough for it. Does not seem like the better system to me.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 04:33:57 PMAnd NO, people's wealth would not be directly tied to "not seemingly like an asshole", it would be directly tied to CONFORMING to whatever moronic norms the mob of mindless sheep has been brainwashed to believe that year.

So not being an asshole? It didn't require believing in masks to know not wearing them was socially unacceptable. In a rep system, not wearing them meant losing wealth. That would result in less psychopaths attacking store clerks that were required to ask them to wear one or leave.

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

None of us care about any of us, what's the issue? What, you gonna tell me the other fags on this board are actually meaningful to you?

Well, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

None of us care about any of us, what's the issue? What, you gonna tell me the other fags on this board are actually meaningful to you?

Well, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

Weird

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PMWell, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

I thought everyone was here to argue with text boxes that disagreed them?

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:43:45 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PMWell, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

I thought everyone was here to argue with text boxes that disagreed them?

That and circlejerk their politics. speaking of which, here, have a dystopia: https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2007/05/magic-of-symmetric-sovereignty/ (https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2007/05/magic-of-symmetric-sovereignty/) Enjoy your Fnarg bro

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:43:34 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

None of us care about any of us, what's the issue? What, you gonna tell me the other fags on this board are actually meaningful to you?

Well, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

Weird

No shit?  I grew up as a gamer in the 70s and 80s.

Calling me weird is like saying water is wet.

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:43:34 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

None of us care about any of us, what's the issue? What, you gonna tell me the other fags on this board are actually meaningful to you?

Well, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

Weird

No shit?  I grew up as a gamer in the 70s and 80s.

Calling me weird is like saying water is wet.

glad you agree its weird

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 08:56:32 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 28, 2021, 08:54:07 PM
If money is phased out in TNG then how come the Command staff spend so much time playing Poker?

Because its fun. They don't play for money there. At most for dares ir the like.

Probably just playing to be playing. Like chess.
Possibly playing for credits. We know the stuff is traded for services. Or for chores. like "I bet 2 hours of my holodeck time." This is how it was sometimes done in other SF shows like Space:1999 for example.
But they could be playing for pretend money. The old poker chips as coins approach.

All of which is more interesting than this, whatever the hell it is.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:33:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:29:51 PMYeah, no, The Price of Freedom sounds like a perfect fit for that.

It would melt your mind to learn that actual socialist find the former Soviet Union to be far too conservative and right-leaning.

Hashtag Not Real Socialism... Yeah that's a fallacy known as the No True Scottsman but thanks for playing.

Now talking about that Dystopian setting...

Are there concentration camps to "re-educate" those found guilty of badwrongthink?

Is the state indoctrinating children into being snitches and betraying their parents?

How would the Puritans guarantee that the wrong type of puritans don't get into power?

I mean you can't expect me to write it all by myself do you? After all it is your dream.

As for the rebels fighting the Imperium, I imagine the Appalachians and some jungles here in México would be great places from where to launch a guerrilla warfare.

I say the Rebel Alliance is busy blowing up roads, bridges and freeing the people in the re-education camps.

A virus is developed that blasts messages of badwrongthink from every phone, smart-tv, laptop, tablet, etc.

A different virus is developed to accelerate the purity spiral among the puritans so they are too busy eating each other to be effective against the Alliance.

Some sort of covert operations are conducted using the sewers to infiltrate the Imperial camps.

Too many people alive, needs everybody to be already dead.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:43:45 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PMWell, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

I thought everyone was here to argue with text boxes that disagreed them?

Exactly. It's much like playing one-player console games and clicking through the dialogue boxes of NPCs. Sometimes very much like that...

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:12:45 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:43:45 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PMWell, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

I thought everyone was here to argue with text boxes that disagreed them?

Exactly. It's much like playing one-player console games and clicking through the dialogue boxes of NPCs. Sometimes very much like that...

tell me more about one-player console games

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 05:13:46 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:12:45 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:43:45 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PMWell, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

I thought everyone was here to argue with text boxes that disagreed them?

Exactly. It's much like playing one-player console games and clicking through the dialogue boxes of NPCs. Sometimes very much like that...

tell me more about one-player console games

That's all for now. <<<exit conversation>>>

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:09:07 PM

Quote from: shuddemell on April 30, 2021, 03:01:55 PMThat is certainly a way to squash free thought and innovation. Any system based on what others "think" or "feel" about you is fundamentally morally and ethically corrupt, because it is not based on some tangible system of laws but rather on the current zeitgeist, which is wildly unpredictable, inconsistent and often (as the SJW's like to put it) on the wrong side of history. No thanks.

Are you against free and fair democratic elections? You can say all those things and they can feel true, but the foundation of what makes the free world free is what others "think" or "feel" about politicians. Instead of right of blood or right of might, our leaders must win a popularity contest. It's not perfect, but I'll take it over feudalism.

Nice strawman, but no. I did say those things and they are true. The foundation of what makes the free world free was never intended to be a popularity contest. Initially, it was intended to only include those with the education and knowledge to realize how little they knew, and with that make thougtful and reasonable solutions in the INTEREST of their constituency, and to therefore elect those who would serve the public interest. The mere fact that it has been bastardized to include career politicians (never intended), is being actively subverted by our media and sabotaged by those with no interests above their own desire for handouts does not negate the intent and genius of our founders. What is has done is guarantee that our elections are neither free or fair. Fortunately that framework has served us pretty well in the past, however with the current push to allow not only citizens, but non citizens and those that have surrendered their rights due to criminal activity to vote shows how little even our politicians trust the system they are supposedly representing. They are relying on the ignorance and laziness of the general populace to vote with their hearts and ignore their minds entirely. And yes, I'll take it over feudalism, but it is hardly what our forefathers intended, there are plenty of reasons to make changes to fix these obvious failings, however giving over to identity and popularity politics is definitely a step in the WRONG direction.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:37:18 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 04:33:57 PMYes, INDIRECTLY much of my life is already affected by the whims of the moronic mob, to a far higher degree that I would prefer. That doesn't mean that therefore it would be a grrreat idea to let them DIRECTLY dictate what the quality of my life should be.

Is it so indirect?

Social skills and reputation are already essential to success. Some people manage to succeed while being overt assholes because their cliche is strong enough for it. Does not seem like the better system to me.

Social skills are already essential to success, therefore we must ensure that socially awkward people and those with disorders that make them come off as callous or weird (like Aspies and such) have no avenues to success in order to wildly attempt to get at assholes. Cuz ostracizing perceived assholes by any means possible should be the basis for what our society should be about.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:37:18 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 04:33:57 PMAnd NO, people's wealth would not be directly tied to "not seemingly like an asshole", it would be directly tied to CONFORMING to whatever moronic norms the mob of mindless sheep has been brainwashed to believe that year.

So not being an asshole? It didn't require believing in masks to know not wearing them was socially unacceptable. In a rep system, not wearing them meant losing wealth. That would result in less psychopaths attacking store clerks that were required to ask them to wear one or leave.

"Won't somebody think of the Mask Mandates?!?"

If you think that making people destitute for failing to conform to authoritarian norms and decrees would result in less people losing their shit as desperation set in from being under constant social pressure and direct financial threat, I have bridge to sell you.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 05:16:44 PM
Social skills are already essential to success, therefore we must ensure that socially awkward people and those with disorders that make them come off as callous or weird (like Aspies and such) have no avenues to success in order to wildly attempt to get at assholes. Cuz ostracizing perceived assholes by any means possible should be the basis for what our society should be about.

IIRC, we have at least one poster that has mentioned he has Asperger's Syndrome. And yes, he can come off as quite the asshole.

Hey Rhedyn, I find this entire line of thought by you regarding your utopia abhorrent and stupid.

How far are you, personally, willing to go to keep me from speaking out against it?

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:20:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 05:16:44 PM
Social skills are already essential to success, therefore we must ensure that socially awkward people and those with disorders that make them come off as callous or weird (like Aspies and such) have no avenues to success in order to wildly attempt to get at assholes. Cuz ostracizing perceived assholes by any means possible should be the basis for what our society should be about.

IIRC, we have at least one poster that has mentioned he has Asperger's Syndrome. And yes, he can come off as quite the asshole.

Did you call?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 05:34:48 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:20:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 05:16:44 PM
Social skills are already essential to success, therefore we must ensure that socially awkward people and those with disorders that make them come off as callous or weird (like Aspies and such) have no avenues to success in order to wildly attempt to get at assholes. Cuz ostracizing perceived assholes by any means possible should be the basis for what our society should be about.

IIRC, we have at least one poster that has mentioned he has Asperger's Syndrome. And yes, he can come off as quite the asshole.

Did you call?

I wasn't going to drop your name, but you're the one I had in mind.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 30, 2021, 05:31:30 PM
Hey Rhedyn, I find this entire line of thought by you regarding your utopia abhorrent and stupid.

How far are you, personally, willing to go to keep me from speaking out against it?

high estimation of import there

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

None of us care about any of us, what's the issue? What, you gonna tell me the other fags on this board are actually meaningful to you?

Well, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

Greetings!

Exactly, Moonsweeper! There are malignant troglodytes here that cannot possibly imagine people actually making friends here. Real people that you talk on the phone with, meet face to face, hang out, game together. So shocking! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2021, 05:52:54 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

None of us care about any of us, what's the issue? What, you gonna tell me the other fags on this board are actually meaningful to you?

Well, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

Greetings!

Exactly, Moonsweeper! There are malignant troglodytes here that cannot possibly imagine people actually making friends here. Real people that you talk on the phone with, meet face to face, hang out, game together. So shocking! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

i mean I couldn't imagine making them here because you're all real repellent

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:40:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 05:34:48 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:20:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 05:16:44 PM
Social skills are already essential to success, therefore we must ensure that socially awkward people and those with disorders that make them come off as callous or weird (like Aspies and such) have no avenues to success in order to wildly attempt to get at assholes. Cuz ostracizing perceived assholes by any means possible should be the basis for what our society should be about.

IIRC, we have at least one poster that has mentioned he has Asperger's Syndrome. And yes, he can come off as quite the asshole.

Did you call?

I wasn't going to drop your name, but you're the one I had in mind.

I'm a proud asshole  8)

Also yes, I suffer from a mild form of Asperger's.

But everybody has the capability of being an asshole, and being one (for whatever reason) shouldn't mean you forfeit your life.

But in Rehdyn's Dystopian setting it does... And of course the puritans in his game think that anyone that thinks different is an asshole and should be terminated. Because assholes are the new nazis or something.

It seriously reads like a perfect setting for a game like The Price of Freedom.

Do you just wanna play The Price of Freedom

You know you can just say that. And post a group for it

I'll beat up some soviets if you wanna beat up some soviets, I'm not fuckin married to failed expressions of an ideology.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 30, 2021, 05:31:30 PM
Hey Rhedyn, I find this entire line of thought by you regarding your utopia abhorrent and stupid.

How far are you, personally, willing to go to keep me from speaking out against it?

You are free to your opinion Joe Biden.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:51:42 PMNow imagine if wealth was tied directly to not seemingly like an asshole? Has your day-to-day interactions improved?

Sociopaths are experts at avoiding looking like assholes. This is why sociopaths always come to power in such systems. The shocking truth of the world is that assholishness is generally subjective, and most people are assholes at one time or another. I put it on myself to try to not be an asshole, and not let others' asshattery affect me. I don't want some council of elders, or a mob to control such things.

I understand your general worldview stems from a desire to help the world by controlling its problems. But doing it this way has generally always ended catastrophically because the world is unimaginably complicated, and so are its problems, and the further away the centers of control are from the actual real problems, the more the solutions (even if done not in bad faith) become clumsy, ineffective and bring with them a host of catastrophic unseen consequences.

I get it, you see a issue (social or otherwise), and you want it fixed. And I find it commendable. But the people that disagree, don't necessarily disagree because their selfish, or evil, or misinformed, but because they have seen the solutions to these sorts of problems become much worse than the problems themselves. So many times doing 'something' can be much worse then doing nothing.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:09:07 PMAre you against free and fair democratic elections?

I see elections as a necessary evil. I don't see them as good, just least bad.

And I don't want more systems founded on least-badditude. The USA was originally founded on the idea of maximum freedom, not the sanctity of voting. Over time its been corrupted, and the founding fathers where well aware of this potential issue.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:37:18 PM
So not being an asshole? It didn't require believing in masks to know not wearing them was socially unacceptable. In a rep system, not wearing them meant losing wealth. That would result in less psychopaths attacking store clerks that were required to ask them to wear one or leave.

Do you really believe that?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2021, 09:09:55 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:51:42 PMNow imagine if wealth was tied directly to not seemingly like an asshole? Has your day-to-day interactions improved?

Sociopaths are experts at avoiding looking like assholes. This is why sociopaths always come to power in such systems. The shocking truth of the world is that assholishness is generally subjective, and most people are assholes at one time or another. I put it on myself to try to not be an asshole, and not let others' asshattery affect me. I don't want some council of elders, or a mob to control such things.

I understand your general worldview stems from a desire to help the world by controlling its problems. But doing it this way has generally always ended catastrophically because the world is unimaginably complicated, and so are its problems, and the further away the centers of control are from the actual real problems, the more the solutions (even if done not in bad faith) become clumsy, ineffective and bring with them a host of catastrophic unseen consequences.

I get it, you see a issue (social or otherwise), and you want it fixed. And I find it commendable. But the people that disagree, don't necessarily disagree because their selfish, or evil, or misinformed, but because they have seen the solutions to these sorts of problems become much worse than the problems themselves. So many times doing 'something' can be much worse then doing nothing.

Probably my favorite epsiode of The Orville.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 09:17:32 PMProbably my favorite epsiode of The Orville.

Mine as well (and Id wager most peoples).

Seth Mcfarlan maybe kinda an egotistical douche, an asshole if you may (see where Im going with this?) but I respect him for ultimately being a self-made man, and that's made him enough money to do whatever projects he wants to try to do, which occasionally results in the best episodes of the orville.

I would not want some council to decide what he should be able to do or not.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 08:43:35 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 30, 2021, 05:31:30 PM
Hey Rhedyn, I find this entire line of thought by you regarding your utopia abhorrent and stupid.

How far are you, personally, willing to go to keep me from speaking out against it?

You are free to your opinion Joe Biden.

Right up to the point where I get deplatformed, eh?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 30, 2021, 10:22:37 PMRight up to the point where I get deplatformed, eh?

I don't see Rhedyn as somebody who argues in bad faith. Moreso doesn't see the logical consequences of his desires and resorts to science worship (or appeals to authority/majority) when something falls outside of something he believes can be solved purely socially.

I don't think he would really want you de-platformed intentionally. Unless it was framed as some larger social cohesion requirement that you are an unfortunate outlier that just has to grit it out for a short while.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 06:29:39 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:40:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 05:34:48 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:20:20 PM
IIRC, we have at least one poster that has mentioned he has Asperger's Syndrome. And yes, he can come off as quite the asshole.

Did you call?

I wasn't going to drop your name, but you're the one I had in mind.

I'm a proud asshole  8)

Also yes, I suffer from a mild form of Asperger's.

But everybody has the capability of being an asshole, and being one (for whatever reason) shouldn't mean you forfeit your life.

But in Rehdyn's Dystopian setting it does... And of course the puritans in his game think that anyone that thinks different is an asshole and should be terminated. Because assholes are the new nazis or something.

It seriously reads like a perfect setting for a game like The Price of Freedom.

OK, new to the thread here - but calling out Asperger's here is bullshit. Plenty of posters here are assholes without Asperger's and plenty of people with Asperger's are super nice.

I haven't looked over ChangedStars, so I have no opinion on that.

I am a little curious about what Rehdyn's setting ideas would be like in actual play - I doubt it would come across as dystopia. I've run a few campaigns with my take on the Star Trek universe, which might be related, but that seems off-topic.

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 03:05:42 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 06:29:39 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:40:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 05:34:48 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 30, 2021, 05:20:20 PM
IIRC, we have at least one poster that has mentioned he has Asperger's Syndrome. And yes, he can come off as quite the asshole.

Did you call?

I wasn't going to drop your name, but you're the one I had in mind.

I'm a proud asshole  8)

Also yes, I suffer from a mild form of Asperger's.

But everybody has the capability of being an asshole, and being one (for whatever reason) shouldn't mean you forfeit your life.

But in Rehdyn's Dystopian setting it does... And of course the puritans in his game think that anyone that thinks different is an asshole and should be terminated. Because assholes are the new nazis or something.

It seriously reads like a perfect setting for a game like The Price of Freedom.

OK, new to the thread here - but calling out Asperger's here is bullshit. Plenty of posters here are assholes without Asperger's and plenty of people with Asperger's are super nice.

I haven't looked over ChangedStars, so I have no opinion on that.

I am a little curious about what Rehdyn's setting ideas would be like in actual play - I doubt it would come across as dystopia. I've run a few campaigns with my take on the Star Trek universe, which might be related, but that seems off-topic.

One, thank you for finding a cure guy, will make sure to inform my doctors.
Two, I've never used it as an excuse for my assholery, YOU're inferring that without reading shit. Which is kind of assholish IMHO.
Three, Fuck ChangedStars.
Four, Rehdyn's "setting" is what he wishes to do IRL to anyone he thinks isn't moral enough. If that's not dystopian to you, then you're beyond help.

With love: The Asshole.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2021, 11:08:42 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 30, 2021, 10:22:37 PMRight up to the point where I get deplatformed, eh?

I don't see Rhedyn as somebody who argues in bad faith. Moreso doesn't see the logical consequences of his desires and resorts to science worship (or appeals to authority/majority) when something falls outside of something he believes can be solved purely socially.

I don't think he would really want you de-platformed intentionally. Unless it was framed as some larger social cohesion requirement that you are an unfortunate outlier that just has to grit it out for a short while.

Probably not.  But the point I'm making is that he cannot hide behind abstractions. His line of thinking will, in time, demand 'wrongthinkers' be silenced. And those 'wrongthinkers' will not be some faceless, anonymous mass, but actual persons.

Keep firing...  ;)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 04:20:28 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 03:51:42 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2021, 03:19:58 PM
...and the quality of our lives being determined by the whims of the moronic mob.

The success of a small business.

Your employment status.

How much you are paid.

How much you have to pay for services.

Etc.

Much of you life is already subject to the whims of the moronic mob. Now imagine if wealth was tied directly to not seemingly like an asshole? Has your day-to-day interactions improved?

According to what cult?

That reads more and more like some sort of theocracy but with a secular cult at the center. Great for a Dystopian setting, not so much for IRL.

You, sir, are guilty of Noticing. Report to TBP for reeducation.

Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2021, 05:52:54 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:42:26 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:32:07 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 30, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

...and you wonder why people are saying 'No' to your idea of social credit? ???

Jesus Christ, dude, you are fucking scary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtAHOepH94

huh ???

You must have me confused with someone who actually cares whether you are alive or dead.

I don't really give a fuck either way, I was just making an observation...

None of us care about any of us, what's the issue? What, you gonna tell me the other fags on this board are actually meaningful to you?

Well, I can't speak to anyone's sexual orientation, but other than that there are some people here who are meaningful to me.  Why would I hang out here if that wasn't the case?

Greetings!

Exactly, Moonsweeper! There are malignant troglodytes here that cannot possibly imagine people actually making friends here. Real people that you talk on the phone with, meet face to face, hang out, game together. So shocking! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I wish. :)

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 03:05:42 AMI am a little curious about what Rehdyn's setting ideas would be like in actual play - I doubt it would come across as dystopia. I've run a few campaigns with my take on the Star Trek universe, which might be related, but that seems off-topic.

That's something our group struggles with, because even though Nova Praxis is billed as dystopian, it's a practical future dystopia. So the average quality of life is way higher than in modern times. It's like if a medieval serf tried to play a cyberpunk game. "I don't get it. It seems like work in plentiful in this fiction and yields enough food/shelter to make a family. Plagues are more rare and the lame are cured via magic. Your corpo wage slaves work less hours than I do."

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 01, 2021, 08:40:26 AMProbably not.  But the point I'm making is that he cannot hide behind abstractions. His line of thinking will, in time, demand 'wrongthinkers' be silenced. And those 'wrongthinkers' will not be some faceless, anonymous mass, but actual persons.

I would like to point out that it cuts both ways. Loud SJWs would get rep docs from anyone that disagreed with them. In reputation economies, getting 50%+ approval is not enough. Discourse would be dominated by polite moderates because radicals would make themselves poor.
Would this lead to a tyranny of the middle? Or does it just result in less radicalization? But a fair observation is that effective free speech is decreased drastically. Which seeing how people all across the spectrum are influenced by cheap propaganda/brainwashing, the value of the notion of free speech needs to be reexamined. Letting democracy be controlled by false information undermines democracy. A reputation economy does not put any specific person in charge of determining false information, instead spreading a radical conspiracy theory results in rep docs from those with the opposing political views. That should cause a decrease in their propagation.

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 11:35:16 AMDiscourse would be dominated by polite moderates because radicals would make themselves poor.

You have such confidence in such a system with nearly no backing behind it whatsoever. The ease with which you feel that everybody would function 'The way they should' is honestly very disturbing.

I would debate the practical implications further, but this isn't really founded on any sort of practical level because whenever challenged you to resort to effectively magic science. This seems to be a philosophical desire to QUASH all those that you deem unworthy of voice or resources. And not by you of course, by a magic sorting algorithm that of course functions the way it should as decided by the right people that just happen to agree with you. Or 'The moderates'. Moderates curated by the right information because freedom is a threat to democracy.
This is in essence about creating a puppet democracy while a shadowy council decides what's good, or true and then curates the system to only allow the answers they want to hear.

Just so you know, you're not advocating for anything really different than the socialist dictatorships of the now and the past. Your just too blinded by your own self-righteousness to realize that.

Edit: Also a freaking Rick & Morty Reference? It very much checks out.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 12:19:24 PMYou have such confidence in such a system...

Do I?

I keep saying it is dystopian. I personally think it would work better than the current dystopia.

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 12:30:06 PMI keep saying it is dystopian. I personally think it would work better than the current dystopia.

And now we enter the semantics game, combined with intellectual cowardice. Again also checks out.
"I'm not saying I wanna plunge the world into a dictatorship as ruled by me, and of course it wouldn't be perfect, but I'm just saying its better than what we have now."
At this point your entering arguments in bad faith. Either be honest with others about your desire for technocratic dictatorial subjection or don't.

Don't pussyfoot around it with semantic games.

Our present day would be rightfully viewed as horrific by people in the past.

Historical yeoman (c. 12-16th century) would have

* More Leisure Time (2-3 months/yr)
* Much Easier ability to Marry & Raise Family
* Greater Community Belonging
* More Independence in Labor (Can pursue what he finds meaningful, rather than just what earns money)

On these metrics historical serfs had greatly improved quality of life over modern people, and especially over likely future people.

Technological advancements in many areas have been wonderful, but it is possible to have a high-technology society without the negative social changes American (and Western Europe) have suffered. We can't conflate these two.

I'd also observe that better medical technology is wonderful, but this actually hasn't resulted in a healthier population. People are physically and especially psychologically less healthy than several decades ago, in a way that is easy to see simply by looking at readily available photos & videos from that time frame.

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2021, 12:46:24 PM
Our present day would be rightfully viewed as horrific by people in the past.

Yup.
That's why I try to never moralize about the past. It was a different dimension.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 12:36:09 PM...At this point your entering arguments in bad faith...

At a bare minimum I am having arguments. Which is more than I can say for your barely coherent buzzword filled rants.

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 12:52:21 PMAt a bare minimum I am having arguments.

Apologies for losing my cool but I can't stand semantics games. I will spell it out:

You were engaging in semantics games by calling our current reality a dystopia and then saying that your dystopia would be better as a way to avoid the accusation that you have a lot of confidence in a totalitarian system that you advocate for.

A dystopia is a fictional place. Our world isn't fictional. If you are willing to advocate for such a system over our current reality, then of course you have confidence in it. It becomes backhanded and disingenuous to present your ideas instead of being forthright.

Doc Sammy advocates for a return to a Roman Empire. I find it ridiculous, but he is 100% forthright about it, which makes discussing the idea with him not feel disengenous.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 30, 2021, 02:10:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2021, 01:44:56 PMWho sets the reputation? China's social score system IS a reputation economy. I wouldn't want to live in a place with that.

The idea is that you have access to a certain quality of resources based on your reputation. So if you were highly valued, you could have that beach front property, while a someone will no contributions to society could only have a house.

The general thought behind rep economies is that your rep goes up as individual people rate you. Where the opinion of highly reputable people is worth more than someone with less rep. The balancing of that algorithm and making sure less public works are weight appropriately would be an endless job requiring constant improvement. The assumption I have seen is that virtual intelligences would have a full-time job keeping everything straight and making sure people don't over-pull a resource they qualify for without a reputation loss.

For example, a Game store owner that let people play games in his store would receive rep increases from everyone that approved of that practices and probably has a higher reputation score than a Game store which did not allow anyone to play in it. In our current society, the latter Game store owner has the advantage if he sells more product, while the other one has to hope that letting a group play D&D in his backroom for years translates to sales at some point or he just loses money even though his contribution to the community is higher than the former Game store owner.

JESUS CHRIST how horrifying, the Facebookization of humanity.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 01:08:32 PMApologies for losing my cool but I can't stand semantics games. I will spell it out:

You were engaging in semantics games by calling our current reality a dystopia and then saying that your dystopia would be better as a way to avoid the accusation that you have a lot of confidence in a totalitarian system that you advocate for.

A dystopia is a fictional place. Our world isn't fictional. If you are willing to advocate for such a system over our current reality, then of course you have confidence in it. It becomes backhanded and disingenuous to present your ideas instead of being forthright.

Doc Sammy advocates for a return to a Roman Empire. I find it ridiculous, but he is 100% forthright about it, which makes discussing the idea with him not feel disengenous.

I've personally argued with many real socialist that feel like if people just listened to them, the world would be perfect. I am not such a person. While I think a reputation economy is the next most logical evolution on the economic system, I am not going to claim that it is flawless.

There is no reason to assume the whole process immediately jumps to a totalitarian dictatorship. That would be the easiest way to set up such a system and force people to live by it, but once it is running, you would only trust high reputation people in critical positions to manage the algorithms. If set up correctly, no one person could do enough damage before their reputation is in shambles and they were replace and then such damage could be fixed. The central force against corruption is that the system should keep assholes out of power. Important positions would be thrust upon those with the highest reputation and if people found power seeking behavior as distasteful as they do now-a-days, then your standard modern day politician (with few expectations) would never attain high office.

But how do we get to point B without an autocrat making it so? My theory is gradually. Let's take a modern day problem and solve it with rep. With the advent of Red Flag laws, allowed to be implemented by a Republican President to his own verbal support of them, the right to bare arms in the US has been revoked. In many areas the Government can decide you have less rights due to arbitrary reasons and no crime committed. That's the baseline situation, so any solution should compare its freedom allowed to that. So what if instead, a reputation system is set up and people can vote whether or not you are a violent unstable asshole. First, you set up the system and encourage people to participate in the day-to-day voting. You see the score of people who commit mass shootings and the voting history behind them. You adjust the algorithms (training) so that most-to-all of the mass shooters end up with X score or lower. Then you have the Red-flag law activated when someone's reputation falls below X. Compared to the current situation, freedom has increased because the unfair law is triggered due to data backed reasoning not because someone told the Government you were creepy. If mass shootings fall significantly or disappear, you have built confidence in the system. If people's reputation were then visible to the public, then free market forces would steadily latch onto the system and it would expand. The government could then slowly expand the system overtime until at some point it replaced the current economic system.

Like any implementation plan, it would have to be adjusted as reality mixed with it. That's just how planning works.

 I'm at my phone right now so I can't type out a complicated response. But just to be clear what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictatorship.
Totalitarian because the state would have total control over everyone's lives, and a dictatorship because only a few would have absolute control over what everyone else would be able to do.
While you envision the totalitarian dictator ship to be benign or even good, it would still ultimately be a totalitarian dictatorship.
And that's fine if you want to advocate for that everyone's entitled to their own opinion ( but not in your system )  but some people fundamentally do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship even a nice one .

By the very definition of the words what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictator ship. If you can come to terms with that, then We can have a conversation further about why totalitarian dictatorships inexorably become corrupt more so than less centralized states, and why I would pose a totalitarian dictator ship even a nice one

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 01:44:19 PM
I'm at my phone right now so I can't type out a complicated response. But just to be clear what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictatorship.
Totalitarian because the state would have total control over everyone's lives, and a dictatorship because only a few would have absolute control over what everyone else would be able to do.
While you envision the totalitarian dictator ship to be benign or even good, it would still ultimately be a totalitarian dictatorship.
And that's fine if you want to advocate for that everyone's entitled to their own opinion ( but not in your system )  but some people fundamentally do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship even a nice one .

By the very definition of the words what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictator ship. If you can come to terms with that, then We can have a conversation further about why totalitarian dictatorships inexorably become corrupt more so than less centralized states, and why I would pose a totalitarian dictator ship even a nice one

I think we understand our current reality differently. I am aware that many view Government Control = Loss of freedom. I view the Government like a Corporation I can't quit but who I vote for the boss. There is some level of control and buy in. Meanwhile actual corporations are miniature feudal kingdoms whose rulers I never voted for. I may be able to quit one, but I have to work either for one or with one if I am not working for/with the government. They rule not by consent of the governed, but by their ability to own and wield capital just like the nobility of old.

You are right in that I do advocate that the state should have more control over our lives because I prefer the state to corporations controlling my life. I interpret demands for "smaller government" as "pro feudalism".

Our disconnect and the disconnect I have many on this forum, is I do not see "licking the boots of the wealthy" as freedom or a kind of freedom better than freedom from the Government. 

I also feel like arguments about word definitions are inherently meaningless. If you define eating ice-cream as racist, I am not going to conclude that eating ice-cream is evil or tell you that your definition of eating ice-cream is wrong. I am not going to use your terms either.

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:10:07 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 01:44:19 PM
I'm at my phone right now so I can't type out a complicated response. But just to be clear what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictatorship.
Totalitarian because the state would have total control over everyone's lives, and a dictatorship because only a few would have absolute control over what everyone else would be able to do.
While you envision the totalitarian dictator ship to be benign or even good, it would still ultimately be a totalitarian dictatorship.
And that's fine if you want to advocate for that everyone's entitled to their own opinion ( but not in your system )  but some people fundamentally do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship even a nice one .

By the very definition of the words what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictator ship. If you can come to terms with that, then We can have a conversation further about why totalitarian dictatorships inexorably become corrupt more so than less centralized states, and why I would pose a totalitarian dictator ship even a nice one

I think we understand our current reality differently. I am aware that many view Government Control = Loss of freedom. I view the Government like a Corporation I can't quit but who I vote for the boss. There is some level of control and buy in. Meanwhile actual corporations are miniature feudal kingdoms whose rulers I never voted for. I may be able to quit one, but I have to work either for one or with one if I am not working for/with the government. They rule not by consent of the governed, but by their ability to own and wield capital just like the nobility of old.

You are right in that I do advocate that the state should have more control over our lives because I prefer the state to corporations controlling my life. I interpret demands for "smaller government" as "pro feudalism".

Our disconnect and the disconnect I have many on this forum, is I do not see "licking the boots of the wealthy" as freedom or a kind of freedom better than freedom from the Government. 

I also feel like arguments about word definitions are inherently meaningless. If you define eating ice-cream as racist, I am not going to conclude that eating ice-cream is evil or tell you that your definition of eating ice-cream is wrong. I am not going to use your terms either.

So your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 01:28:36 PM
There is no reason to assume the whole process immediately jumps to a totalitarian dictatorship...

How do you feel about sites such as YouTube, Twitter, and Reddit that implement similar algorithmic reputation systems? Do you feel that these systems consistently surface the best & most useful content and reward the best people? How would what you're proposing differ in a meaningful way from other existing algorithmic rating systems?

If someone kills someone else and gets -10,000 reputation, is that just as bad as littering 10,000 times? What if someone is falsely convicted of a crime, do prosecutors get negative reputation for a prosecution that's later overturned? If you're mentally ill and behave erratically sometimes, is that your fault or...? What if you own a business but your wife cheats on you and then spreads a bunch of lies about you that hurts your reputation?

This type of pie-in-the-sky thinking seems very much driven by people who either don't work with technology or haven't meaningfully grappled with the consequences of it. The world is a lot more complex than it's possible to boil down into our models, and the more we try to force the world to align with the model the more negative effects this will have.

I think there's a solid case to be made that centralization in technology inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Given enough time, the people who are willing to act unethically for their own advantage will be able to use these mechanisms to their own advantage.

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:10:07 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 01:44:19 PM
I'm at my phone right now so I can't type out a complicated response. But just to be clear what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictatorship.
Totalitarian because the state would have total control over everyone's lives, and a dictatorship because only a few would have absolute control over what everyone else would be able to do.
While you envision the totalitarian dictator ship to be benign or even good, it would still ultimately be a totalitarian dictatorship.
And that's fine if you want to advocate for that everyone's entitled to their own opinion ( but not in your system )  but some people fundamentally do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship even a nice one .

By the very definition of the words what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictator ship. If you can come to terms with that, then We can have a conversation further about why totalitarian dictatorships inexorably become corrupt more so than less centralized states, and why I would pose a totalitarian dictator ship even a nice one

I think we understand our current reality differently. I am aware that many view Government Control = Loss of freedom. I view the Government like a Corporation I can't quit but who I vote for the boss. There is some level of control and buy in. Meanwhile actual corporations are miniature feudal kingdoms whose rulers I never voted for. I may be able to quit one, but I have to work either for one or with one if I am not working for/with the government. They rule not by consent of the governed, but by their ability to own and wield capital just like the nobility of old.

You are right in that I do advocate that the state should have more control over our lives because I prefer the state to corporations controlling my life. I interpret demands for "smaller government" as "pro feudalism".

Our disconnect and the disconnect I have many on this forum, is I do not see "licking the boots of the wealthy" as freedom or a kind of freedom better than freedom from the Government. 

I also feel like arguments about word definitions are inherently meaningless. If you define eating ice-cream as racist, I am not going to conclude that eating ice-cream is evil or tell you that your definition of eating ice-cream is wrong. I am not going to use your terms either.

"Government control is good because Corporate control is bad...and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to lick the boots of the corporations.

Because false dichotomy between telling both of these types of entities to go FUCK themselves or something."

And who do you think is going to implement this algorithmic digital credit score system you're clamoring for? Who do you think is already taking steps to implement this type of system right NOW*?

THE FUCKING CORPORATIONS, who're in bed the the government. They're BOTH fucking us over Chinese finger-cuffs style already as we speak. And any attempts to continue to push this type of tech forward are going to inevitably end in tech-corp backed FASCIM.

There is NO dichotomy between corporations and the government in the modern world. They both ARE the "government".

*with their control of news, search engines, social media and the digital space in general, And now with the idea of "Vaccine Passports".

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 01, 2021, 02:32:43 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:10:07 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 01:44:19 PM
I'm at my phone right now so I can't type out a complicated response. But just to be clear what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictatorship.
Totalitarian because the state would have total control over everyone's lives, and a dictatorship because only a few would have absolute control over what everyone else would be able to do.
While you envision the totalitarian dictator ship to be benign or even good, it would still ultimately be a totalitarian dictatorship.
And that's fine if you want to advocate for that everyone's entitled to their own opinion ( but not in your system )  but some people fundamentally do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship even a nice one .

By the very definition of the words what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictator ship. If you can come to terms with that, then We can have a conversation further about why totalitarian dictatorships inexorably become corrupt more so than less centralized states, and why I would pose a totalitarian dictator ship even a nice one

I think we understand our current reality differently. I am aware that many view Government Control = Loss of freedom. I view the Government like a Corporation I can't quit but who I vote for the boss. There is some level of control and buy in. Meanwhile actual corporations are miniature feudal kingdoms whose rulers I never voted for. I may be able to quit one, but I have to work either for one or with one if I am not working for/with the government. They rule not by consent of the governed, but by their ability to own and wield capital just like the nobility of old.

You are right in that I do advocate that the state should have more control over our lives because I prefer the state to corporations controlling my life. I interpret demands for "smaller government" as "pro feudalism".

Our disconnect and the disconnect I have many on this forum, is I do not see "licking the boots of the wealthy" as freedom or a kind of freedom better than freedom from the Government. 

I also feel like arguments about word definitions are inherently meaningless. If you define eating ice-cream as racist, I am not going to conclude that eating ice-cream is evil or tell you that your definition of eating ice-cream is wrong. I am not going to use your terms either.

"Government control is good because Corporate control is bad...and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to lick the boots of the corporations.

Because false dichotomy between telling both of these types of entities to go FUCK themselves or something."

And who do you think is going to implement this algorithmic digital credit score system you're clamoring for? Who do you think is already taking steps to implement this type of system right NOW*?

THE FUCKING CORPORATIONS, who're in bed the the government. They're BOTH fucking us over Chinese finger-cuffs style already as we speak. And any attempts to continue to push this type of tech forward are going to inevitably end in tech-corp backed FASCIM.

There is NO dichotomy between corporations and the government in the modern world. They both ARE the "government".

*with their control of news, search engines, social media and the digital space in general, And now with the idea of "Vaccine Passports".

I bet he thinks it will be him in power, or at the very least those puritans of his weird cult.

But this is deviating from the forum's purpose, I vote we move this discusion to pundit's forum.

 Definitions of words are very important. Just because social justice warriors abuse definitions, doesn't give you carte blanche to abuse them as well.
For instants feudalism wasn't defined by the Lords abilities to produce capital but by the force of arms.
When you play around with very important words it makes it very difficult to follow what you actually want to achieve in the world, that's why definitions are important, and if there is a issue with the definitions employed by the arguing individuals it's best to come to a consensus instead of saying definitions don't matter.
When you play around with very important words it makes it very difficult to follow what you actually want to achieve in the world, that's why definitions are important, and if there is a issue with the definitions employed by the arguing individuals it's best to come to a consensus instead of saying definitions don't matter.

The government is magnanimously closer to the feudal lords of the past than any corporation. Because a government Centralizes the use of force and access to force.
I'm not trying to play gotcha with the words you say, I'm trying to understand why you would want something.

What defines an authoritarian system is that the government can bring more force to solve more things. Solve in this case means anything that the government doesn't like.  So I am confused as to why you would want to make the system more like feudalism then. Or not so much so feudalism was imperialism. Your lords simply become in shrine in a larger political system and where is before you could at least quit,  they are now permanently enshrined strictures in the government.

While I am no fan of corrupt and evil organizations and corporations what makes you believe that you are entitled to control over them? Especially if as you said you can quit them. If what bothers you are there overages where they use their abilities to access government to force things to happen, why would you want to make the system even more authoritarian in such a way that would grab them even more power . In place of capitalist corporations you would be enthralled to reputation currency-based corporations.

On a smaller scale your example of gaming stores having to let people play their last they be punished, did not sound appealing to me because I did not believe that I had the right to dictate how they should live like that. On top of that I don't have the ego to believe that the entire world should be laid out for my convenience.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:37:08 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

Actually I don't think fascist is applicable because it is not feature a centralized ruling party, it is 100% dictatorial though. May be a dictatorial democracy, or a dictatorial technocracy.

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2021, 02:28:43 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 01:28:36 PM
There is no reason to assume the whole process immediately jumps to a totalitarian dictatorship...

How do you feel about sites such as YouTube, Twitter, and Reddit that implement similar algorithmic reputation systems? Do you feel that these systems consistently surface the best & most useful content and reward the best people? How would what you're proposing differ in a meaningful way from other existing algorithmic rating systems?

If someone kills someone else and gets -10,000 reputation, is that just as bad as littering 10,000 times? What if someone is falsely convicted of a crime, do prosecutors get negative reputation for a prosecution that's later overturned? If you're mentally ill and behave erratically sometimes, is that your fault or...? What if you own a business but your wife cheats on you and then spreads a bunch of lies about you that hurts your reputation?

This type of pie-in-the-sky thinking seems very much driven by people who either don't work with technology or haven't meaningfully grappled with the consequences of it. The world is a lot more complex than it's possible to boil down into our models, and the more we try to force the world to align with the model the more negative effects this will have.

I think there's a solid case to be made that centralization in technology inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Given enough time, the people who are willing to act unethically for their own advantage will be able to use these mechanisms to their own advantage.

More and more activities and worth is measured with models. If you work in a large enough corporation all your worth is boiled down to a few metrics.

All social media is a huge waste of time and I recommend for mental health purposes to avoid as much exposure as possible. That being said, the recommended content on youtube does normally elicit some positive feeling when I watch it. The forums I browse on reddit are too niche for the algorithms to meaningfully change what I see.

Maybe a big polluter would have worth rep than a murderer, BUT that would have to be offset by weights to their wealth generation. Some incentive against polluting without eliminating industry. In our current legal system lawyers would have to be blocked from rep loss for court arguments the same way the villains in movies would need to have rep loss prevented from moronic fans that decide to dislike the actor for a character. There is motions to be more tolerant of the mentally ill, but the people advocating for that you guys tend to disagree with. You need to reconcile that conflict before I can offer a rep answer. Maybe the guy who couldn't maintain a marriage deserves the rep loss. A lot of these "victims" have fucked up ideas about women and married for stupid reasons. Both get rep hits unless it is a very peaceful divorce.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 01, 2021, 02:32:43 PM"Government control is good because Corporate control is bad...and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to lick the boots of the corporations.

Because false dichotomy between telling both of these types of entities to go FUCK themselves or something."

And who do you think is going to implement this algorithmic digital credit score system you're clamoring for? Who do you think is already taking steps to implement this type of system right NOW*?

THE FUCKING CORPORATIONS, who're in bed the the government. They're BOTH fucking us over Chinese finger-cuffs style already as we speak. And any attempts to continue to push this type of tech forward are going to inevitably end in tech-corp backed FASCIM.

There is NO dichotomy between corporations and the government in the modern world. They both ARE the "government".

*with their control of news, search engines, social media and the digital space in general, And now with the idea of "Vaccine Passports".

Well another option I have been thinking about is economies of scope. Interdependence and tyranny can go down if people were more self reliant. 3D printing technology, renewable power generation, hydroponics, etc. These are all technologies that could make individuals more self reliant and decrease the need for societal involvement. I personally still advocate a rep economy backbone to incentivize the development of these technologies and the schematics people would use. Right now their is no incentive to make 3D-printer models unless you sell the model and have some sort of digital rights managements. That whole compensation system becomes easier if your schematic for an auto-bathroom-cleaner results in a rep increase and people can print the device out themselves.   

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:39:51 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 01, 2021, 02:32:43 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:10:07 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 01:44:19 PM
I'm at my phone right now so I can't type out a complicated response. But just to be clear what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictatorship.
Totalitarian because the state would have total control over everyone's lives, and a dictatorship because only a few would have absolute control over what everyone else would be able to do.
While you envision the totalitarian dictator ship to be benign or even good, it would still ultimately be a totalitarian dictatorship.
And that's fine if you want to advocate for that everyone's entitled to their own opinion ( but not in your system )  but some people fundamentally do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship even a nice one .

By the very definition of the words what you are advocating for is a totalitarian dictator ship. If you can come to terms with that, then We can have a conversation further about why totalitarian dictatorships inexorably become corrupt more so than less centralized states, and why I would pose a totalitarian dictator ship even a nice one

I think we understand our current reality differently. I am aware that many view Government Control = Loss of freedom. I view the Government like a Corporation I can't quit but who I vote for the boss. There is some level of control and buy in. Meanwhile actual corporations are miniature feudal kingdoms whose rulers I never voted for. I may be able to quit one, but I have to work either for one or with one if I am not working for/with the government. They rule not by consent of the governed, but by their ability to own and wield capital just like the nobility of old.

You are right in that I do advocate that the state should have more control over our lives because I prefer the state to corporations controlling my life. I interpret demands for "smaller government" as "pro feudalism".

Our disconnect and the disconnect I have many on this forum, is I do not see "licking the boots of the wealthy" as freedom or a kind of freedom better than freedom from the Government. 

I also feel like arguments about word definitions are inherently meaningless. If you define eating ice-cream as racist, I am not going to conclude that eating ice-cream is evil or tell you that your definition of eating ice-cream is wrong. I am not going to use your terms either.

"Government control is good because Corporate control is bad...and anyone who thinks otherwise wants to lick the boots of the corporations.

Because false dichotomy between telling both of these types of entities to go FUCK themselves or something."

And who do you think is going to implement this algorithmic digital credit score system you're clamoring for? Who do you think is already taking steps to implement this type of system right NOW*?

THE FUCKING CORPORATIONS, who're in bed the the government. They're BOTH fucking us over Chinese finger-cuffs style already as we speak. And any attempts to continue to push this type of tech forward are going to inevitably end in tech-corp backed FASCIM.

There is NO dichotomy between corporations and the government in the modern world. They both ARE the "government".

*with their control of news, search engines, social media and the digital space in general, And now with the idea of "Vaccine Passports".

I bet he thinks it will be him in power, or at the very least those puritans of his weird cult.

But this is deviating from the forum's purpose, I vote we move this discusion to pundit's forum.

Meh, I've been trying to avoid that, since I swore off Pundit's forum months ago, plus I figured this was at least tangentially related to gaming, since it dealt with a setting concept. But I guess it's teetering on the edge of hard politics?

Wow, this game sounds completely insane. Who wrote this? The leftwing counterpart of Tom Kratman?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2021, 04:28:12 PM
Wow, this game sounds completely insane. Who wrote this? The leftwing counterpart of Tom Kratman?

I think it was written by people who were too leftist for the creators of Eclipse Phase.  Or by people who found Eclipse Phase wasn't far enough to the left for them.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:39:51 PM
But this is deviating from the forum's purpose, I vote we move this discusion to pundit's forum.

Our latest batch of new posters seem hell bent on posting straight politics in the gaming forum.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 01, 2021, 04:57:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:39:51 PM
But this is deviating from the forum's purpose, I vote we move this discusion to pundit's forum.

Our latest batch of new posters seem hell bent on posting straight politics in the gaming forum.

That does seem to be the case. It is like the days when Forge advocates would pop in to proselytize, but now it is just leftist politics thinly disguised by gaming.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:37:08 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

You know your opening line here, i can be an asshole and not die of starvation for it' reminded me of a line from 'demolition man' when simon phoenix, the bad guy, says to the masjor villain "You can't go around taking away people's rights to be assholes!"

And to an extent you're both right, but i hope you're not a mass murderer like simon phoenix was. ;)

But yes a 'rep culture' can be used to crush dissent even in the smallest degree. i mean look at the horror the chinese government, may it rot in hell, is using with thweir total surveilance and instant rating program. God that has to be the most horrible place to live in any technologically advanced country.

Eclipse phase mentioned that a guy ended up losing a job he was qualified to do and forced to work a job that was literally killing him simply due to a bad rep over some social gaffes created by ignorance. That's going a bit too far.

I mean this rep culture could be ok or horrible depending on how much power it has or is allowed to have.  I see real issues with it like Mr. Chad or Ms. Stacy just taskes a dislike to someone and asks his/her followers to ding the guy en mass, and it fucks up his whole life on every level. Talk about cyberbullying.

So yes, at best i think the rep culture could be maybe a little ok mostly, but the down side is really worse than the benefits. So i'm not a huge fan.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 01, 2021, 04:37:11 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2021, 04:28:12 PM
Wow, this game sounds completely insane. Who wrote this? The leftwing counterpart of Tom Kratman?

I think it was written by people who were too leftist for the creators of Eclipse Phase.  Or by people who found Eclipse Phase wasn't far enough to the left for them.

I have a reflexive question for people who say something is 'too left" that i generally have to ask.

If you say that something is too left, then could you give me an example of something that's too right for you?

I mean this game changed stars is definitely too left for me and i am a card carrying progressive. I like EP but not this hot mess if it's really as bad as the righties say it is. (Righties tend to wildy exaggerate to an extreme degree of reductio ad absurdum the badwrong of anything to their left of their position.)

So as a leftist i can say that there are things too left for me, i was wondering what would be too right for people condemning this game setting, which i would too if what's being said about it's even close to true.

Quote from: matt swain on May 01, 2021, 06:29:21 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:37:08 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

You know your opening line here, i can be an asshole and not die of starvation for it' reminded me of a line from 'demolition man' when simon phoenix, the bad guy, says to the masjor villain "You can't go around taking away people's rights to be assholes!"

And to an extent you're both right, but i hope you're not a mass murderer like simon phoenix was. ;)

But yes a 'rep culture' can be used to crush dissent even in the smallest degree. i mean look at the horror the chinese government, may it rot in hell, is using with thweir total surveilance and instant rating program. God that has to be the most horrible place to live in any technologically advanced country.

Eclipse phase mentioned that a guy ended up losing a job he was qualified to do and forced to work a job that was literally killing him simply due to a bad rep over some social gaffes created by ignorance. That's going a bit too far.

I mean this rep culture could be ok or horrible depending on how much power it has or is allowed to have.  I see real issues with it like Mr. Chad or Ms. Stacy just taskes a dislike to someone and asks his/her followers to ding the guy en mass, and it fucks up his whole life on every level. Talk about cyberbullying.

So yes, at best i think the rep culture could be maybe a little ok mostly, but the down side is really worse than the benefits. So i'm not a huge fan.

You are not going far enough with the concept of social currency.

If someone is deemed to have too low of a social currency value, well they can still be used for their organs.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646

There is the end result of your Glorious Revolution.

Anyone thinking that a setting where someone's life hinges on public opinion of them is going to go in good directions for people should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You%27ve_Been_Publicly_Shamed  Here is what actually happens.

Let's face it, in a rep culture to the level we have TODAY in 'murca, the mere hint, or accusation, or something not even illegal can kill a  budding career that someone worked hard to get going, or even an established career that someone worked hard for years or decades to earn.

I mean, al franken had to step down as a senator but no one on the right wants matt gaetz kicked out of the senate for what he's accused of, and there is mounting evidence for? Yeah, this cancel culture seems to be a one way street i a lot of cases.

This whole thing of constant surveillance thru phones and the net, along with rep/cancel culture may be an idea who's time has come, but that  doesn't make it a good idea.

BTW, this site has no rep score system i've found yet. Interesting.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 04:12:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 03:05:42 AM
OK, new to the thread here - but calling out Asperger's here is bullshit. Plenty of posters here are assholes without Asperger's and plenty of people with Asperger's are super nice.

One, thank you for finding a cure guy, will make sure to inform my doctors.
Two, I've never used it as an excuse for my assholery, YOU're inferring that without reading shit. Which is kind of assholish IMHO.

GeekyBugle, sorry my post was unclear. My beef was with HappyDaze for citing you over Asperger's, which I felt was uncalled for. I have no problem with what you've said over it.

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 06:55:58 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 04:12:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 03:05:42 AM
OK, new to the thread here - but calling out Asperger's here is bullshit. Plenty of posters here are assholes without Asperger's and plenty of people with Asperger's are super nice.

One, thank you for finding a cure guy, will make sure to inform my doctors.
Two, I've never used it as an excuse for my assholery, YOU're inferring that without reading shit. Which is kind of assholish IMHO.

GeekyBugle, sorry my post was unclear. My beef was with HappyDaze for citing you over Asperger's, which I felt was uncalled for. I have no problem with what you've said over it.

No problem, apology accepted.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 02:52:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:37:08 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

Actually I don't think fascist is applicable because it is not feature a centralized ruling party, it is 100% dictatorial though. May be a dictatorial democracy, or a dictatorial technocracy.

Marriage of state+corporations. How else can you imposse such a system?

"The indomitable Human Empire vaulted itself majestically dick-first into space."

Was this because vagina shaped rockets were deemed impractical?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 07:14:05 PMMarriage of state+corporations. How else can you imposse such a system?

Depends on the marriage. And from the assumption of the stated idea, the corps aren't married as much as receive extreme oversight (as does everything else). Its more an extreme surveillance state, as opposed to nationalization (or pseudo nationalization) of industry.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 07:40:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 07:14:05 PMMarriage of state+corporations. How else can you imposse such a system?

Depends on the marriage. And from the assumption of the stated idea, the corps aren't married as much as receive extreme oversight (as does everything else). Its more an extreme surveillance state, as opposed to nationalization (or pseudo nationalization) of industry.

Everything in the state, by the state, nothing outside the state or against the state.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 07:14:05 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 01, 2021, 02:52:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:37:08 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 02:12:15 PMSo your setting is a fascist dystopia.. Tell us more.

Arguing about word definitions is meaningless, but you still need to understand what people are saying.

Please describe in detail how you don't live in a fascist dystopia. What are your actual freedoms?

For starters I can be an asshole and not be condemned to die from starvation.

I can tell anyone to go eff themselves, I can buy stuff without fearing some puritan has docked my social credit.

Your setting is a Sharia Law, punishing people for transgressing against your morality. Not for hurting you or anyone else, not for doing ANY real damage, but for speaking words you find offensive.

Thanks, no thanks.

Also Words have a meaning, and in this case it applies perfectly, your setting is a fascist dystopia, but please tell us more or we won't be able to play The Price of Freedom with it.

Actually I don't think fascist is applicable because it is not feature a centralized ruling party, it is 100% dictatorial though. May be a dictatorial democracy, or a dictatorial technocracy.

Marriage of state+corporations. How else can you imposse such a system?

Check this out.

https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/What-Is-Corporate-Fascism-Is-The-Government-Of-The-United-States-a-Fascist-Form-Of-Governance#:~:text=Benito%20Mussolini%20%28speaking%20of%20corporate%20fascism%29%20The%20concept,of%20individuals.%20This%20is%20known%20as%20an%20Oligarchy.

A lot of dark future rpgs like shadowrun have the idea of corporations controlling or simply replacing government.

Quote from: DocJones on May 01, 2021, 07:15:31 PM
"The indomitable Human Empire vaulted itself majestically dick-first into space."

Was this because vagina shaped rockets were deemed impractical?

First, if that hilarious description of the Human Empire didn't sell you, I don't what could.

Also, yes. Vagina shaped rockets have a harder time escaping gravity in an atmosphere. This caused a terrible oversight... CLITORIS shaped rockets!!

Quote from: matt swain on May 01, 2021, 10:24:06 PM

Check this out.

https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/What-Is-Corporate-Fascism-Is-The-Government-Of-The-United-States-a-Fascist-Form-Of-Governance#:~:text=Benito%20Mussolini%20%28speaking%20of%20corporate%20fascism%29%20The%20concept,of%20individuals.%20This%20is%20known%20as%20an%20Oligarchy.

A lot of dark future rpgs like shadowrun have the idea of corporations controlling or simply replacing government.

Check this out as well.

https://spectator.us/topic/tyranny-inevitable-consequence-liberalism/?fbclid=IwAR0fEsohinEzIFxerpCkRDHOzySEXjnGWBhnl_tPlYqJpfEG4z1ZGqL77Us

I think this game was written by some shitlord wanting to make the left look bad.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 02, 2021, 03:30:26 AM

Check this out as well.

https://spectator.us/topic/tyranny-inevitable-consequence-liberalism/?fbclid=IwAR0fEsohinEzIFxerpCkRDHOzySEXjnGWBhnl_tPlYqJpfEG4z1ZGqL77Us

Reads like reheated Moldbug, what about it.

Quote from: matt swain on May 02, 2021, 03:53:24 AM
I think this game was written by some shitlord wanting to make the left look bad.

It's like that sequence from Clue.

COL. MUSTARD: "Are you trying to make me look stupid in front of the other guests?"
THE BUTLER: "You don't need any help from me, sir."
COL. MUSTARD: "That's right!"

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 06:55:58 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 04:12:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 03:05:42 AM
OK, new to the thread here - but calling out Asperger's here is bullshit. Plenty of posters here are assholes without Asperger's and plenty of people with Asperger's are super nice.

One, thank you for finding a cure guy, will make sure to inform my doctors.
Two, I've never used it as an excuse for my assholery, YOU're inferring that without reading shit. Which is kind of assholish IMHO.

GeekyBugle, sorry my post was unclear. My beef was with HappyDaze for citing you over Asperger's, which I felt was uncalled for. I have no problem with what you've said over it.

Is that what I did? Someone else mentioned Asperger's and I mentioned that there was at least one here with that condition. GB then shouted out that it was him and I simply acknowledged it along with the fact that, yes, I do consider GB to be an asshole. If you have a problem with that, you can go fuck yourself, because GB considers himself to be an asshole too, and you should respect how he self-identifies.  :P

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 02, 2021, 03:30:26 AM

Quote from: matt swain on May 01, 2021, 10:24:06 PM

Check this out.

https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/What-Is-Corporate-Fascism-Is-The-Government-Of-The-United-States-a-Fascist-Form-Of-Governance#:~:text=Benito%20Mussolini%20%28speaking%20of%20corporate%20fascism%29%20The%20concept,of%20individuals.%20This%20is%20known%20as%20an%20Oligarchy.

A lot of dark future rpgs like shadowrun have the idea of corporations controlling or simply replacing government.

Check this out as well.

https://spectator.us/topic/tyranny-inevitable-consequence-liberalism/?fbclid=IwAR0fEsohinEzIFxerpCkRDHOzySEXjnGWBhnl_tPlYqJpfEG4z1ZGqL77Us

Are any of those RPGs an Utopia? or are all of them Dystopias?

Rep economies are the modern day equivalent of the Public Shaming of years past. This time the Puritans are on the left, I fought against the Satanic Panic, I won't bend the knee for the new moral panic.

Quote from: matt swain on May 02, 2021, 03:53:24 AM
I think this game was written by some shitlord wanting to make the left look bad.

No True Scottsman, it's a logical fallacy. Humans are capable of evil, those sucked into a cult like Ideology even more so. If your setting is to have any internal consistency it needs to reflect that.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2021, 09:39:57 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 06:55:58 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 01, 2021, 04:12:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 03:05:42 AM
OK, new to the thread here - but calling out Asperger's here is bullshit. Plenty of posters here are assholes without Asperger's and plenty of people with Asperger's are super nice.

One, thank you for finding a cure guy, will make sure to inform my doctors.
Two, I've never used it as an excuse for my assholery, YOU're inferring that without reading shit. Which is kind of assholish IMHO.

GeekyBugle, sorry my post was unclear. My beef was with HappyDaze for citing you over Asperger's, which I felt was uncalled for. I have no problem with what you've said over it.

Is that what I did? Someone else mentioned Asperger's and I mentioned that there was at least one here with that condition. GB then shouted out that it was him and I simply acknowledged it along with the fact that, yes, I do consider GB to be an asshole. If you have a problem with that, you can go fuck yourself, because GB considers himself to be an asshole too, and you should respect how he self-identifies.  :P

That is correct, that's the exact order in which things transpired and that's how it transpired too.

Quote from: trechriron on May 02, 2021, 02:58:52 AM

Quote from: DocJones on May 01, 2021, 07:15:31 PM
"The indomitable Human Empire vaulted itself majestically dick-first into space."

First, if that hilarious description of the Human Empire didn't sell you, I don't what could.

I would have used "thrust" instead of "vaulted" and maybe "headstrong" instead on "indomitable"

"The headstrong Human Empire thrust itself majestically dick-first into space."

Hmmm - Tempest in a Teapot?

There are MANY games that support male cis hetero fantasies. MANY also support western societal tropes. It's common. I also support these games and tropes. I'm a big fan of people playing what they like - the way they like. In fact, I support creators making settings with uncomfortable portrayals of the ugliness in humanity's history. I feel that sugar-coating them is an insult to the people who suffered in those times.

This is simply some people making a game that fits their fantasy - what they want to see in a sci-fi setting. A world not dominated by a patriarchal mindset. The setup just changes the playing field. There is so much detail going into this game! I feel like it's a perfect thought experiment that falls squarely in the sci-fi realm. This is exactly what I want sci-fi to do for me. Make me wonder and think.

I support someone making the Gor RPG (I backed it) and so I support someone making the matriarchal equality society in space RPG (I backed it).

With each update it looks even cooler.

Quote from: trechriron on May 02, 2021, 09:19:57 PM
Hmmm - Tempest in a Teapot?

Eh. I don't remember anyone in the thread going bugshit over this kickstarter. Mostly just fun to mock it. The blurb reads like a troll attempt, so I took it in that spirit.

Quote from: trechriron on May 02, 2021, 09:19:57 PM
Hmmm - Tempest in a Teapot?

There are MANY games that support male cis hetero fantasies. MANY also support western societal tropes. It's common. I also support these games and tropes. I'm a big fan of people playing what they like - the way they like. In fact, I support creators making settings with uncomfortable portrayals of the ugliness in humanity's history. I feel that sugar-coating them is an insult to the people who suffered in those times.

This is simply some people making a game that fits their fantasy - what they want to see in a sci-fi setting. A world not dominated by a patriarchal mindset. The setup just changes the playing field. There is so much detail going into this game! I feel like it's a perfect thought experiment that falls squarely in the sci-fi realm. This is exactly what I want sci-fi to do for me. Make me wonder and think.

I support someone making the Gor RPG (I backed it) and so I support someone making the matriarchal equality society in space RPG (I backed it).

With each update it looks even cooler.

I remain annoyed the ad is like "oh funded in 5 hours!" when the initial goal was super small-potatoes in KS-terms. Good on them for chasin their weird weird dream otherwise. Whats the RPG market if you can't churn out your passion game and have nearly nobody buy it you know

Quote from: trechriron on May 02, 2021, 09:19:57 PM
Hmmm - Tempest in a Teapot?

There are MANY games that support male cis hetero fantasies. MANY also support western societal tropes. It's common. I also support these games and tropes. I'm a big fan of people playing what they like - the way they like. In fact, I support creators making settings with uncomfortable portrayals of the ugliness in humanity's history. I feel that sugar-coating them is an insult to the people who suffered in those times.

This is simply some people making a game that fits their fantasy - what they want to see in a sci-fi setting. A world not dominated by a patriarchal mindset. The setup just changes the playing field. There is so much detail going into this game! I feel like it's a perfect thought experiment that falls squarely in the sci-fi realm. This is exactly what I want sci-fi to do for me. Make me wonder and think.

I support someone making the Gor RPG (I backed it) and so I support someone making the matriarchal equality society in space RPG (I backed it).

With each update it looks even cooler.

SO? Who here is trying to rally the weirdos to go and get "offended" and Reeeeeeeee until the game is deplatformed and the creators unpersoned?

They can create whatever and people have the God given right to point and laugh, to criticize.

Gor... I maybe wrong but NO ONE is saying that setting is an utopia.

Matriarchal Equality Society... Where some aliens came and did something to all the heterosexuals especially men...

Also, no, we don't live in a patriarchy, we live in a meritocracy.

Kickstarter is owned by wokesters, they push stuff made by fellow wokesters and have gathered an audience of wokesters with money in their pockets (and now flush with government CoronaCash!).

And slowly but surely, the main hobby will be further poisoned. What was once extreme and niche, with enough promotion and success, becomes mainstream.

But yes, it's Woke RaHoWa. Next up, a chart for rolling anal size post-backdoor action being declared as stunning and brave.

There's a lot going on in that post for you to be angry about Spinach, are you okay

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 03, 2021, 05:02:55 PM
Kickstarter is owned by wokesters, they push stuff made by fellow wokesters and have gathered an audience of wokesters with money in their pockets (and now flush with government CoronaCash!).

And slowly but surely, the main hobby will be further poisoned. What was once extreme and niche, with enough promotion and success, becomes mainstream.

But yes, it's Woke RaHoWa. Next up, a chart for rolling anal size post-backdoor action being declared as stunning and brave.

Products like this won't have any broader impact. The problem of poisoning the hobby comes through WotC, Paizo, White Wolf, etc.

From the perspective of preventing Wokeness of ruining the hobby, ironically the best thing might be to produce your own hyper-Woke product and get them to pay you. Once you get their money you can use it on paying talented people, instead of based on mental illness status.

Quote from: Zelen on May 03, 2021, 08:53:05 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 03, 2021, 05:02:55 PM
Kickstarter is owned by wokesters, they push stuff made by fellow wokesters and have gathered an audience of wokesters with money in their pockets (and now flush with government CoronaCash!).

And slowly but surely, the main hobby will be further poisoned. What was once extreme and niche, with enough promotion and success, becomes mainstream.

But yes, it's Woke RaHoWa. Next up, a chart for rolling anal size post-backdoor action being declared as stunning and brave.

Products like this won't have any broader impact. The problem of poisoning the hobby comes through WotC, Paizo, White Wolf, etc.

From the perspective of preventing Wokeness of ruining the hobby, ironically the best thing might be to produce your own hyper-Woke product and get them to pay you. Once you get their money you can use it on paying talented people, instead of based on mental illness status.

And you'd be confronted with the classic double agent dillema:

How can you trust he's really, really working for you?

I wouldn't give my money to any woke developer even if they started saying they were only trying to get the woke money to produce better non-woke products.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 03, 2021, 09:30:33 PM
And you'd be confronted with the classic double agent dillema:

How can you trust he's really, really working for you?

I wouldn't give my money to any woke developer even if they started saying they were only trying to get the woke money to produce better non-woke products.

RPGs are such a small industry that it doesn't need to be any more complex than creating a good product that sucks up the air in the room, and then use that to pay good people who aren't injecting their politics into everything. Keep the good people afloat is a victory in itself.

You're right in that *your* brand would be poisoned, which is why you'd want to create a separate legal entity for it, and don't connect it to anything else you do.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 03, 2021, 11:45:06 AM

Also, no, we don't live in a patriarchy, we live in a meritocracy.

Cool delusion bro.

Quote from: trechriron on May 03, 2021, 11:36:42 PM
Cool delusion bro.

And would you have a problem with this if it was a matriarchy?

Quote from: trechriron on May 03, 2021, 11:36:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 03, 2021, 11:45:06 AM

Also, no, we don't live in a patriarchy, we live in a meritocracy.

Cool delusion bro.

So you have any evidence that we do?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2021, 12:07:02 AM

Quote from: trechriron on May 03, 2021, 11:36:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 03, 2021, 11:45:06 AM

Also, no, we don't live in a patriarchy, we live in a meritocracy.

Cool delusion bro.

So you have any evidence that we do?

Well, lets see. Sorts stars make millions, tens of millions while teachers get paid shit. Why? Because most wealthy sports stars are males who entertain mostly male audiences, while teachers just help educate our future generations and most guys don't give a fuck about that. Hell, a porn star with big tits makes more than a qualified teacher, again she entertains men. Sportstars entertain the male patriarchy and are rewarded accordingly. Many people who perform vital jobs (We would live without sports stars) get paid very little because the corporate patriarchy sucks up all the money but sports stars entertain the patriarchy and are paid lavishly for it.

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 02:21:55 AM
Well, lets see. Sorts stars make millions, tens of millions while teachers get paid shit. Why? Because most wealthy sports stars are males who entertain mostly male audiences, while teachers just help educate our future generations and most guys don't give a fuck about that. Hell, a porn star with big tits makes more than a qualified teacher, again she entertains men. Sportstars entertain the male patriarchy and are rewarded accordingly. Many people who perform vital jobs (We would live without sports stars) get paid very little because the corporate patriarchy sucks up all the money but sports stars entertain the patriarchy and are paid lavishly for it.

That's all aeconomic nonsense. Sports don't make money because muh men while teachers don't because muh women. The reason sports stars make money is because they're entertainers, and the most popular entertainers make disproportionately more money, regardless of whether their audience is men or women. The same applies to entertainment that appeals to men, and to entertainment that appeals more to women, like romance novels. By contrast, teaching is a personal service, and not subject to the vagaries of popularity to nearly the same degree, so what they're paid is more stable across the profession, without the extreme outliers. Plus, teachers make decent money, or very good money when you count the value of non-wage remuneration, like summers off, medical coverage, and pensions.

And "vital" has nothing to do with what things cost. The classic example in nearly every economics 101 textbook is water is a lot more vital to life than diamonds, but costs far less. That's because there's an abundance of water, and once people have enough to drink and wash in, they don't feel a need to keep stockpiling it. At that point, they become more interested in shiny things. The prices of things aren't based on essential characteristics, they're based on the amount of money the next person who is wants to buy something is willing to pay. This is called the marginal cost.

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 02:21:55 AM
Well, lets see. Sorts stars make millions, tens of millions while teachers get paid shit. Why? Because most wealthy sports stars are males who entertain mostly male audiences, while teachers just help educate our future generations and most guys don't give a fuck about that. Hell, a porn star with big tits makes more than a qualified teacher, again she entertains men. Sportstars entertain the male patriarchy and are rewarded accordingly. Many people who perform vital jobs (We would live without sports stars) get paid very little because the corporate patriarchy sucks up all the money but sports stars entertain the patriarchy and are paid lavishly for it.

It's about 300 years since John Law explained the paradox of diamonds and water in terms of relative supply and demand (and about 250 since Adam Smith nicked the idea).

Anyway long experience suggests basic econs doesn't matter to most socialists. The point is think they know better than you how to spend your money. The excuse used to be class warfare and/or the technical superiority of central planning, until that fell over. The "patriarchy" is the latest excuse.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2021, 12:07:02 AM

So you have any evidence that we do?

   The delusion might be not the denial of patriarchy, but the affirmation of meritocracy. :) From my point of view, we live in a tumultuous oligarchy careening towards a diablocracy (in multiple senses of the term), but this is getting rather far afield from the hobby.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2021, 09:06:09 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2021, 12:07:02 AM

So you have any evidence that we do?

   The delusion might be not the denial of patriarchy, but the affirmation of meritocracy. :) From my point of view, we live in a tumultuous oligarchy careening towards a diablocracy (in multiple senses of the term), but this is getting rather far afield from the hobby.

Pretty much what I figured as well. But since no specifications were made it's hard to tell which is it.

Quote from: Pat on May 04, 2021, 05:50:43 AM

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 02:21:55 AM
Well, lets see. Sorts stars make millions, tens of millions while teachers get paid shit. Why? Because most wealthy sports stars are males who entertain mostly male audiences, while teachers just help educate our future generations and most guys don't give a fuck about that. Hell, a porn star with big tits makes more than a qualified teacher, again she entertains men. Sportstars entertain the male patriarchy and are rewarded accordingly. Many people who perform vital jobs (We would live without sports stars) get paid very little because the corporate patriarchy sucks up all the money but sports stars entertain the patriarchy and are paid lavishly for it.

That's all aeconomic nonsense. Sports don't make money because muh men while teachers don't because muh women. The reason sports stars make money is because they're entertainers, and the most popular entertainers make disproportionately more money, regardless of whether their audience is men or women. The same applies to entertainment that appeals to men, and to entertainment that appeals more to women, like romance novels. By contrast, teaching is a personal service, and not subject to the vagaries of popularity to nearly the same degree, so what they're paid is more stable across the profession, without the extreme outliers. Plus, teachers make decent money, or very good money when you count the value of non-wage remuneration, like summers off, medical coverage, and pensions.

And "vital" has nothing to do with what things cost. The classic example in nearly every economics 101 textbook is water is a lot more vital to life than diamonds, but costs far less. That's because there's an abundance of water, and once people have enough to drink and wash in, they don't feel a need to keep stockpiling it. At that point, they become more interested in shiny things. The prices of things aren't based on essential characteristics, they're based on the amount of money the next person who is wants to buy something is willing to pay. This is called the marginal cost.

Ahh, the typical conservative reply to any criticism, "That's just nonsense!" No point to trying to reason with a contard...

Quote from: Marchand on May 04, 2021, 06:19:58 AM

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 02:21:55 AM
Well, lets see. Sorts stars make millions, tens of millions while teachers get paid shit. Why? Because most wealthy sports stars are males who entertain mostly male audiences, while teachers just help educate our future generations and most guys don't give a fuck about that. Hell, a porn star with big tits makes more than a qualified teacher, again she entertains men. Sportstars entertain the male patriarchy and are rewarded accordingly. Many people who perform vital jobs (We would live without sports stars) get paid very little because the corporate patriarchy sucks up all the money but sports stars entertain the patriarchy and are paid lavishly for it.

It's about 300 years since John Law explained the paradox of diamonds and water in terms of relative supply and demand (and about 250 since Adam Smith nicked the idea).

Anyway long experience suggests basic econs doesn't matter to most socialists. The point is think they know better than you how to spend your money. The excuse used to be class warfare and/or the technical superiority of central planning, until that fell over. The "patriarchy" is the latest excuse.

Contards seem ok with central planning as long as it;'s by a corporation and not an elected government.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2021, 09:06:09 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2021, 12:07:02 AM

So you have any evidence that we do?

   The delusion might be not the denial of patriarchy, but the affirmation of meritocracy. :) From my point of view, we live in a tumultuous oligarchy careening towards a diablocracy (in multiple senses of the term), but this is getting rather far afield from the hobby.

You got it.  The best term to describe america today might be "kratocracy".

https://www.governmentvs.com/en/what-is-kratocracy/model-87-0

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 12:37:20 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2021, 09:06:09 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2021, 12:07:02 AM

So you have any evidence that we do?

   The delusion might be not the denial of patriarchy, but the affirmation of meritocracy. :) From my point of view, we live in a tumultuous oligarchy careening towards a diablocracy (in multiple senses of the term), but this is getting rather far afield from the hobby.

You got it.  The best term to describe america today might be "kratocracy".

https://www.governmentvs.com/en/what-is-kratocracy/model-87-0

Well, if Kratos wants to rule, who's going to stop him?

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 12:34:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 04, 2021, 05:50:43 AM

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 02:21:55 AM
Well, lets see. Sorts stars make millions, tens of millions while teachers get paid shit. Why? Because most wealthy sports stars are males who entertain mostly male audiences, while teachers just help educate our future generations and most guys don't give a fuck about that. Hell, a porn star with big tits makes more than a qualified teacher, again she entertains men. Sportstars entertain the male patriarchy and are rewarded accordingly. Many people who perform vital jobs (We would live without sports stars) get paid very little because the corporate patriarchy sucks up all the money but sports stars entertain the patriarchy and are paid lavishly for it.

That's all aeconomic nonsense. Sports don't make money because muh men while teachers don't because muh women. The reason sports stars make money is because they're entertainers, and the most popular entertainers make disproportionately more money, regardless of whether their audience is men or women. The same applies to entertainment that appeals to men, and to entertainment that appeals more to women, like romance novels. By contrast, teaching is a personal service, and not subject to the vagaries of popularity to nearly the same degree, so what they're paid is more stable across the profession, without the extreme outliers. Plus, teachers make decent money, or very good money when you count the value of non-wage remuneration, like summers off, medical coverage, and pensions.

And "vital" has nothing to do with what things cost. The classic example in nearly every economics 101 textbook is water is a lot more vital to life than diamonds, but costs far less. That's because there's an abundance of water, and once people have enough to drink and wash in, they don't feel a need to keep stockpiling it. At that point, they become more interested in shiny things. The prices of things aren't based on essential characteristics, they're based on the amount of money the next person who is wants to buy something is willing to pay. This is called the marginal cost.

Ahh, the typical conservative reply to any criticism, "That's just nonsense!" No point to trying to reason with a contard...

First of all, I'm not even vaguely conservative. I just understand basic economics. And I didn't just reply with "that's just nonsense", I explained why you're wrong. You just replied with an insult.

And for someone who complains about being a victim and people being mean to you so much, it's kind of ironic you call people names in almost every post.

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 02:21:55 AMWell, lets see. Sorts stars make millions, tens of millions while teachers get paid shit. Why? Because most wealthy sports stars are males who entertain mostly male audiences, while teachers just help educate our future generations and most guys don't give a fuck about that. Hell, a porn star with big tits makes more than a qualified teacher, again she entertains men. Sportstars entertain the male patriarchy and are rewarded accordingly. Many people who perform vital jobs (We would live without sports stars) get paid very little because the corporate patriarchy sucks up all the money but sports stars entertain the patriarchy and are paid lavishly for it.

You said it with 'stars.' Sports stars, like other stars, are entertainers. They have individual value that's determined within their vertical entertainment industry, just like Scarlett Johansson does in film.

Teachers are public employees, governed at the state level, and a profession made up of both men and women. As compared with many professions, their recompense may seem low. Within their market though, if they go to administration or become a superintendent, the roof is off (a roof I will add, which is agreed upon by Teacher's Unions). Also, depending on the location, they may have much better than average benefits. In the case of going the path of administration, our district superintendent makes much more than the mayor. 

Most teachers don't want competitiveness, by the way, and rather have their more stable and predictable matrix.

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 12:34:59 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 04, 2021, 05:50:43 AM

Quote from: matt swain on May 04, 2021, 02:21:55 AM
Well, lets see. Sorts stars make millions, tens of millions while teachers get paid shit. Why? Because most wealthy sports stars are males who entertain mostly male audiences, while teachers just help educate our future generations and most guys don't give a fuck about that. Hell, a porn star with big tits makes more than a qualified teacher, again she entertains men. Sportstars entertain the male patriarchy and are rewarded accordingly. Many people who perform vital jobs (We would live without sports stars) get paid very little because the corporate patriarchy sucks up all the money but sports stars entertain the patriarchy and are paid lavishly for it.

That's all aeconomic nonsense. Sports don't make money because muh men while teachers don't because muh women. The reason sports stars make money is because they're entertainers, and the most popular entertainers make disproportionately more money, regardless of whether their audience is men or women. The same applies to entertainment that appeals to men, and to entertainment that appeals more to women, like romance novels. By contrast, teaching is a personal service, and not subject to the vagaries of popularity to nearly the same degree, so what they're paid is more stable across the profession, without the extreme outliers. Plus, teachers make decent money, or very good money when you count the value of non-wage remuneration, like summers off, medical coverage, and pensions.

And "vital" has nothing to do with what things cost. The classic example in nearly every economics 101 textbook is water is a lot more vital to life than diamonds, but costs far less. That's because there's an abundance of water, and once people have enough to drink and wash in, they don't feel a need to keep stockpiling it. At that point, they become more interested in shiny things. The prices of things aren't based on essential characteristics, they're based on the amount of money the next person who is wants to buy something is willing to pay. This is called the marginal cost.

Ahh, the typical conservative reply to any criticism, "That's just nonsense!" No point to trying to reason with a contard...

He went into detail and explained why your response was nonsense. Crying about it won't help you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2021, 12:07:02 AM

Quote from: trechriron on May 03, 2021, 11:36:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 03, 2021, 11:45:06 AM

Also, no, we don't live in a patriarchy, we live in a meritocracy.

Cool delusion bro.

So you have any evidence that we do?

Here's an article I haven't read that exists to annoy you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_women_in_Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_women_in_Mexico)

Read the pitch... I felt ill and dirty. I need a shower.

Read the preview. Very similar to the system used in Free League's Alien. Strangely very gear and combat focused. Every species logo incorporates vagina imagery. The feminine Tiefling looking race is based on a porn comic and all three sexes feature operational mammaries. It's a fetish RPG, but nowhere near as extreme as Bellum Maga or MSF High. In fact like many such RPGs I see nothing inherent in the game itself which pushes the themes and agenda it claims to have. And if you're really looking for Poe there's no better an example than ValiDate, a dating sim which features such obnoxious representations of minorities that I still wonder if it isn't some sort of cunning troll.

Ultimately though I have no problem with this sort of fantasy, and people vastly overestimate how much RPGs influence beliefs and behavior beyond the table.

Quote from: Torque2100 on April 28, 2021, 03:48:14 PM
Welp someone told 4chan. (https://boards.4channel.org/tg/thread/78905141/changed-stars-the-tankie-version-of-rahowa)

Archived (https://archive.is/DFUdU) for when it goes away.

The idea of an alien invasion being thwarted because they find humans just too sexy to control themselves around is rather intriguing however.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 30, 2021, 09:09:55 PM
Sociopaths are experts at avoiding looking like assholes. This is why sociopaths always come to power in such systems.

Sociopaths and Narcissists are the entire problem, and the best I can recommend is for people to learn how to spot and expel them, especially empaths who think they can save everybody.

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2021, 03:05:42 AM
calling out Asperger's here is bullshit. Plenty of posters here are assholes without Asperger's and plenty of people with Asperger's are super nice.

Aspie here. While that's true, the fact we don't intuitively pick up on social cues means we're constantly in danger of unintentionally violating social boundaries, and some of these triggers are so insipid that we don't just get frustrated trying to honor them, but literally exhausted as simple social interactions can become massive expenses in emotional labor, and eventually resentful that we're being forced to put in this work just to participate in society.

Theoretically the condition also frees us of the kind of social biases which make one vulnerable to influence, but in my experience those on the spectrum become particularly obsessed with certain things, often political. It's partly about a need for order, and mastering one domain is about the only way you can even attempt to put the world in context.

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 01:28:36 PM
The central force against corruption is that the system should keep assholes out of power.

How?

Quote from: Rhedyn on May 01, 2021, 01:28:36 PM
Important positions would be thrust upon those with the highest reputation and if people found power seeking behavior as distasteful as they do now-a-days, then your standard modern day politician (with few expectations) would never attain high office.

So when does capability enter the equation, if at all?

Quote from: Marchand on May 04, 2021, 06:19:58 AM
The point is think they know better than you how to spend your money.

The justification for all authoritarianism really.

Quote from: matt swain on April 30, 2021, 02:57:08 PM
When you have the tech to take dirt apart and turn it into food, clothing, housing, etc what happens to economics?

Same as always: Someone ends up controlling who can access the tech and dirt.

Quote from: matt swain on April 30, 2021, 03:12:58 PM
So why not write your own SFRPG based on your views and try to kickstart it?

Create a scifi future setting where there are heroic straight conservative libertarian shitlords battling against the ravening hordes of libtards, SJWs, feminazis, LGBTQ monsters, socialists, communists, NAMBLA members, etc?

Maybe even call it "Shitlords of the stars!"

It would likely be pulled from #Kickstarter, and then the goalposts would shift to "Why not create your own platform?".

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2021, 02:28:43 PM
How do you feel about sites such as YouTube, Twitter, and Reddit that implement similar algorithmic reputation systems? Do you feel that these systems consistently surface the best & most useful content and reward the best people? How would what you're proposing differ in a meaningful way from other existing algorithmic rating systems?

If someone kills someone else and gets -10,000 reputation, is that just as bad as littering 10,000 times? What if someone is falsely convicted of a crime, do prosecutors get negative reputation for a prosecution that's later overturned? If you're mentally ill and behave erratically sometimes, is that your fault or...? What if you own a business but your wife cheats on you and then spreads a bunch of lies about you that hurts your reputation?

This type of pie-in-the-sky thinking seems very much driven by people who either don't work with technology or haven't meaningfully grappled with the consequences of it. The world is a lot more complex than it's possible to boil down into our models, and the more we try to force the world to align with the model the more negative effects this will have.

I think there's a solid case to be made that centralization in technology inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Given enough time, the people who are willing to act unethically for their own advantage will be able to use these mechanisms to their own advantage.

And RPGs are exactly the kind of thing uniquely suited to exploring such dilemmas.

Quote from: matt swain on May 01, 2021, 10:24:06 PM
Check this out (https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/What-Is-Corporate-Fascism-Is-The-Government-Of-The-United-States-a-Fascist-Form-Of-Governance).

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 02, 2021, 03:30:26 AM
Check this out as well (https://spectator.us/topic/tyranny-inevitable-consequence-liberalism/).

Quote from: This Guy on April 30, 2021, 04:46:14 PM
That and circlejerk their politics. speaking of which, here, have a dystopia: Enjoy your Fnarg bro (https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2007/05/magic-of-symmetric-sovereignty/)

Checked out. Thanks for sharing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2021, 03:36:45 PM
Popularity contests are precisely why the United States is not a Democracy.

(https://images.slideplayer.com/26/8672441/slides/slide_28.jpg)

The full editorial worth a read too (https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Hamilton/01-04-02-0199).

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 07, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
The idea of an alien invasion being thwarted because they find humans just too sexy to control themselves around is rather intriguing however.

Isn't that basically the entire plot resolution for Macross/Robotech?

The aliens are so overwhelmed by the concept of sex and the blaring of 80's pop rock through their speakers that they literally stand around drooling as we blow them to kingdom come!

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 07, 2021, 03:54:53 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 07, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
The idea of an alien invasion being thwarted because they find humans just too sexy to control themselves around is rather intriguing however.

Isn't that basically the entire plot resolution for Macross/Robotech?

The aliens are so overwhelmed by the concept of sex and the blaring of 80's pop rock through their speakers that they literally stand around drooling as we blow them to kingdom come!

That is essentially it.  When Miriya, a female Zentradi, is micronized and infiltrates the SDF-1, she tracks down Max Sterling to assassinate him.  She finds him in an arcade (which she rationalizes as a "battle training center") and he beats her ass over and over again in a Valkyrie sim arcade cockpit game, she follows him home, confronts him in an alley and basically says "You're TOO AWESOME FOR ME therefore KILL ME!" and his response is to grab her and french kiss her until she's overcome with sexy thoughts and says (in a nutshell) "yee haw, I'm a dtf human loving HOT MAMA!" and joins up with humanity.

(It's still better than anything this game could bring to the table)

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 09, 2021, 08:50:26 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 07, 2021, 03:54:53 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 07, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
The idea of an alien invasion being thwarted because they find humans just too sexy to control themselves around is rather intriguing however.

Isn't that basically the entire plot resolution for Macross/Robotech?

The aliens are so overwhelmed by the concept of sex and the blaring of 80's pop rock through their speakers that they literally stand around drooling as we blow them to kingdom come!

That is essentially it.  When Miriya, a female Zentradi, is micronized and infiltrates the SDF-1, she tracks down Max Sterling to assassinate him.  She finds him in an arcade (which she rationalizes as a "battle training center") and he beats her ass over and over again in a Valkyrie sim arcade cockpit game, she follows him home, confronts him in an alley and basically says "You're TOO AWESOME FOR ME therefore KILL ME!" and his response is to grab her and french kiss her until she's overcome with sexy thoughts and says (in a nutshell) "yee haw, I'm a dtf human loving HOT MAMA!" and joins up with humanity.

(It's still better than anything this game could bring to the table)

Oh, I absolutely know it. I've been on a Robotech kick of late to the point I'm actually building a hybrid Mekton/Palladium ruleset for a campaign where pretty much every faction made it through to the Invid Invasion time period.

So you've got old RDF reserves, the Southern Cross (boy did I forget how fascist they were on the show), REF/Sentinels, EBSIS (because the future of the 1980's isn't complete without space Soviets), Merchant Republic (because Neo-Tokyo is also required for future 1980's), Zentraedi and Masters remnants plus both factions of Invid and Haydonites all duking it out over the one world in the known universe that the Flower of Life needed for Protoculture actually grows.

I just need to figure out how to make belting out 80's pop ballads into a viable stun attack in the mechanics.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 09, 2021, 10:29:43 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 09, 2021, 08:50:26 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 07, 2021, 03:54:53 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 07, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
The idea of an alien invasion being thwarted because they find humans just too sexy to control themselves around is rather intriguing however.

Isn't that basically the entire plot resolution for Macross/Robotech?

The aliens are so overwhelmed by the concept of sex and the blaring of 80's pop rock through their speakers that they literally stand around drooling as we blow them to kingdom come!

That is essentially it.  When Miriya, a female Zentradi, is micronized and infiltrates the SDF-1, she tracks down Max Sterling to assassinate him.  She finds him in an arcade (which she rationalizes as a "battle training center") and he beats her ass over and over again in a Valkyrie sim arcade cockpit game, she follows him home, confronts him in an alley and basically says "You're TOO AWESOME FOR ME therefore KILL ME!" and his response is to grab her and french kiss her until she's overcome with sexy thoughts and says (in a nutshell) "yee haw, I'm a dtf human loving HOT MAMA!" and joins up with humanity.

(It's still better than anything this game could bring to the table)

Oh, I absolutely know it. I've been on a Robotech kick of late to the point I'm actually building a hybrid Mekton/Palladium ruleset for a campaign where pretty much every faction made it through to the Invid Invasion time period.

So you've got old RDF reserves, the Southern Cross (boy did I forget how fascist they were on the show), REF/Sentinels, EBSIS (because the future of the 1980's isn't complete without space Soviets), Merchant Republic (because Neo-Tokyo is also required for future 1980's), Zentraedi and Masters remnants plus both factions of Invid and Haydonites all duking it out over the one world in the known universe that the Flower of Life needed for Protoculture actually grows.

I just need to figure out how to make belting out 80's pop ballads into a viable stun attack in the mechanics.

Yeah, I don't really churn them all together, I just stick with Macross' story line, characters, and so forth.  Mashing three shows together and then trying to make it all make sense just leaves me flat.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 10, 2021, 02:23:00 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 09, 2021, 10:29:43 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 09, 2021, 08:50:26 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 07, 2021, 03:54:53 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 07, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
The idea of an alien invasion being thwarted because they find humans just too sexy to control themselves around is rather intriguing however.

Isn't that basically the entire plot resolution for Macross/Robotech?

The aliens are so overwhelmed by the concept of sex and the blaring of 80's pop rock through their speakers that they literally stand around drooling as we blow them to kingdom come!

That is essentially it.  When Miriya, a female Zentradi, is micronized and infiltrates the SDF-1, she tracks down Max Sterling to assassinate him.  She finds him in an arcade (which she rationalizes as a "battle training center") and he beats her ass over and over again in a Valkyrie sim arcade cockpit game, she follows him home, confronts him in an alley and basically says "You're TOO AWESOME FOR ME therefore KILL ME!" and his response is to grab her and french kiss her until she's overcome with sexy thoughts and says (in a nutshell) "yee haw, I'm a dtf human loving HOT MAMA!" and joins up with humanity.

(It's still better than anything this game could bring to the table)

Oh, I absolutely know it. I've been on a Robotech kick of late to the point I'm actually building a hybrid Mekton/Palladium ruleset for a campaign where pretty much every faction made it through to the Invid Invasion time period.

So you've got old RDF reserves, the Southern Cross (boy did I forget how fascist they were on the show), REF/Sentinels, EBSIS (because the future of the 1980's isn't complete without space Soviets), Merchant Republic (because Neo-Tokyo is also required for future 1980's), Zentraedi and Masters remnants plus both factions of Invid and Haydonites all duking it out over the one world in the known universe that the Flower of Life needed for Protoculture actually grows.

I just need to figure out how to make belting out 80's pop ballads into a viable stun attack in the mechanics.

Yeah, I don't really churn them all together, I just stick with Macross' story line, characters, and so forth.  Mashing three shows together and then trying to make it all make sense just leaves me flat.

It's less an issue for me because I've always preferred the Mospeada/New Generation-era and characters (Scott Bernard can kick Rick Hunter's emo ass, Lancer's version of "We Will Win" is better than Minmei's and the Alpha Fighter is a much better designed machine whose feet don't produce ridiculous ground pressures and whose transformation sequence far less likely to go wonky in the middle of a battle than the VF-1 Veritech).

The advantage of preferring the tail end of the timeline is that bringing in all the other elements is just a matter of tweaking it so that enough of ASC, RDF and EBSIS units, plus rogue Zentraedi and Tirolian refugees survive the initial Invid attack to remain credible forces and deciding the Sentinels aliens actually help the REF in trying to take back Earth from the Invid (just as the REF helped liberate their worlds from the Invid).

Basically, mine is a version of the 1e RPG's Invid Invasion/Return of the Masters setting where the non-REF human factions maintain enough cohesion to actually still count as governments and Invid numbers are small enough they don't overwhelm everything else (in the 1e RPG they sent a smaller farming/garrison force back six months after Reflex Point because Earth is still the only place the Flower actually grows, but instead of trying to keep the whole planet, they just occupied the regions the Flower grew most densely).

The fact that Zentraedi/Tirolians are very long lived justifies the rogues still being around after 30 years and it's only been about a decade since the ASC got blasted by the Masters and a lot of the supplemental materials (comics, etc.) explains that the bulk of their survivors either went to ground or retreated to the Moon/Mars bases when the Invid arrived. Having them reassert control over parts of South America (where the ASC originally started as a grass roots operation by survivors of the Zentraedi holocaust) where the Flower is less pervasive makes sense (and similar for the EBSIS in Eastern Europe and Merchant Republic in Japan with some old RDF garrisons still hanging on in Africa while the REF sets up shop at Mars Base).

The primary thinking on my end is that by putting some additional emphasis on the ASC/EBSIS remnants and rogue Zentraedi/Masters in addition to the Invid (who picked up surviving elements of the Regent's faction) with the players getting as the REF/Sentinels (with RDF reserve units) would add enough options for both support and enemy units to make an extended campaign a bit more interesting.

Oh I definitely get it if you're adding flavor, make no mistake.  I guess I'm just two dimensional and I would just have even more Zentradi show up :D

Man this makes me wish I still I had my "Jack McKinney" omnibus Robotech "The Macross Saga" paperbacks.  I think I sold 'em all off long ago, though.