Are we seeing the end of combat?

Ratman_tf · October 19, 2021, 04:22:16 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 03:52:15 PM
Quote
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM
QuoteWell, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing.
You are confusing playing a game with actual violence. You have yet to provide a single shred of evidence that playing a game results in real, live people being "trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun" in the real world.

What isn't clear is whether your confusion of games and reality is real or feigned.

It's axiomatic. What you participate in trains you. Everything is propaganda for something.

The question is whether such training will be seized upon by wokies and used as an excuse to neuter the gaming industry. In the age of microaggressions and "Orcs should be people" madness my money is on the current situation being unstable and decaying into something new and more constrictive.

I think we have solid evidence that 1. It doesn't train people to think a certain way, and 2. That the wokies already use that concept to try and push their ideology into entertainment.

And the backlash already shows that the situation is unstable. I think your argument is about 10 years out of date.

Neoplatonist1 · October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

And, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Neoplatonist1 · October 19, 2021, 04:36:31 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:22:16 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 03:52:15 PM
Quote
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM
QuoteWell, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing.
You are confusing playing a game with actual violence. You have yet to provide a single shred of evidence that playing a game results in real, live people being "trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun" in the real world.

What isn't clear is whether your confusion of games and reality is real or feigned.

It's axiomatic. What you participate in trains you. Everything is propaganda for something.

The question is whether such training will be seized upon by wokies and used as an excuse to neuter the gaming industry. In the age of microaggressions and "Orcs should be people" madness my money is on the current situation being unstable and decaying into something new and more constrictive.

I think we have solid evidence that 1. It doesn't train people to think a certain way, and 2. That the wokies already use that concept to try and push their ideology into entertainment.

And the backlash already shows that the situation is unstable. I think your argument is about 10 years out of date.

I don't see wokery slowing down, I see it speeding up. That some have reacted against it smacks of something akin to when people used to write letters to the editor complaining that a given policy is "political correctness gone mad!" as if that argument ever stopped political correctness from advancing itself. Ten years ago the term "political correctness" itself still had relevance; now that term has been retired after serving its purpose, replaced by "woke". You think woke isn't going to be replaced by something worse?

Please, tell me more about your confidence that the RPG citadel can withstand this incoming tidal wave. I wish to be wrong.

GeekyBugle · October 19, 2021, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

And, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Can't you guys see this twat is just a woke vomiting woke talking points? How is the twat going to combat the woke when he agrees with their anti-scientific claim that violent games make gamers violent?

Children's toys companies want to sell to EVERYONE twat, if they put swastikas on their toys they will loose a huge segment of the market.

Historical reenactment is a voluntary activity, you choose to participate AND pay out of your pocket to do so. Attendance is not mandatory either.

But you still haven provided scientific evidence of your extraordinary claims, and keep running from me because I keep demanding it and providing the scientific evidence that proves you wrong.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Neoplatonist1 · October 19, 2021, 04:38:27 PM

double post

GeekyBugle · October 19, 2021, 04:39:59 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:36:31 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:22:16 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 03:52:15 PM
Quote
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM
QuoteWell, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing.
You are confusing playing a game with actual violence. You have yet to provide a single shred of evidence that playing a game results in real, live people being "trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun" in the real world.

What isn't clear is whether your confusion of games and reality is real or feigned.

It's axiomatic. What you participate in trains you. Everything is propaganda for something.

The question is whether such training will be seized upon by wokies and used as an excuse to neuter the gaming industry. In the age of microaggressions and "Orcs should be people" madness my money is on the current situation being unstable and decaying into something new and more constrictive.

I think we have solid evidence that 1. It doesn't train people to think a certain way, and 2. That the wokies already use that concept to try and push their ideology into entertainment.

And the backlash already shows that the situation is unstable. I think your argument is about 10 years out of date.

I don't see wokery slowing down, I see it speeding up. That some have reacted against it smacks of something akin to when people used to write letters to the editor complaining that a given policy is "political correctness gone mad!" as if that argument ever stopped political correctness from advancing itself. Ten years ago the term "political correctness" itself still had relevance; now that term has been retired after serving its purpose, replaced by "woke". You think woke isn't going to be replaced by something worse?

I see you pushing the woke agenda and talking points.

Do you have any evidence for your extraoprdinary claims? Or are you going to keep running from me you coward cunt?

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Shasarak · October 19, 2021, 05:18:36 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 19, 2021, 11:49:15 AM
Stop talking to the retard. You know better.

Which one?

jhkim · October 19, 2021, 05:30:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 04:39:59 PM
I see you pushing the woke agenda and talking points.

Do you have any evidence for your extraoprdinary claims? Or are you going to keep running from me you coward cunt?

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Dude. I don't think the personal attacks are warranted. I might disagree with Neoplatonist1, but he hasn't done anything to warrant this.

In any case, the evidence for video games is mixed. There have been a number of studies that have found positive correlations to negative traits, including both aggression and desensitization. I think that means taking it all with skepticism, as psychology studies are unreliable and often not reproducible. But that applies just as much to studies that didn't find a correlation. Below are some quotes from studies that found a positive correlation:

QuoteOn the basis of this metaanalysis, we conclude that playing violent video games is associated with greater levels of overt physical aggression over time, after accounting for prior aggression. These findings support the general claim that violent video game play is associated with increases in physical aggression over time. Furthermore, the results speak to three specific criticisms of this literature by demonstrating: (i) that violent video game play is associated with increases in measures of serious aggressive behavior (i.e., overt, physical aggression), (ii) that estimates of this effect are only slightly decreased by inclusion of statistical covariates, and (iii) by finding no evidence of publication bias.

Source: https://www.pnas.org/content/115/40/9882

QuotePast research shows that violent video game exposure increases aggressive thoughts, angry feelings, physiological arousal, aggressive behaviors, and decreases helpful behaviors. However, no research has experimentally examined violent video game effects on physiological desensitization, defined as showing less physiological arousal to violence in the real world after exposure to video game violence in the virtual world. This experiment attempts to fill this gap. Participants reported their media habits and then played one of eight violent or nonviolent video games for 20 min. Next, participants watched a 10-min videotape containing scenes of real-life violence while heart rate (HR) and galvanic skin response (GSR) were monitored. Participants who previously played a violent video game had lower HR and GSR while viewing filmed real violence, demonstrating a physiological desensitization to violence.

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022103106000825

jeff37923 · October 19, 2021, 05:35:23 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

Thank you, Patricia Pulling.
Would you mind telling us now how the games lead to Devil Worshipping and the Occult?

SHARK · October 19, 2021, 05:57:13 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 19, 2021, 05:35:23 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

Thank you, Patricia Pulling.
Would you mind telling us now how the games lead to Devil Worshipping and the Occult?

Greetings!

*HOWLING*! Jeff, I just choked on my mug of soda. So true, man! Good to see you, my friend!

PATRICIA PULLING!!!!!

Pepperidge Farms remembers, Jeff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

GeekyBugle · October 19, 2021, 05:59:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 19, 2021, 05:30:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 04:39:59 PM
I see you pushing the woke agenda and talking points.

Do you have any evidence for your extraoprdinary claims? Or are you going to keep running from me you coward cunt?

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Dude. I don't think the personal attacks are warranted. I might disagree with Neoplatonist1, but he hasn't done anything to warrant this.

In any case, the evidence for video games is mixed. There have been a number of studies that have found positive correlations to negative traits, including both aggression and desensitization. I think that means taking it all with skepticism, as psychology studies are unreliable and often not reproducible. But that applies just as much to studies that didn't find a correlation. Below are some quotes from studies that found a positive correlation:

QuoteOn the basis of this metaanalysis, we conclude that playing violent video games is associated with greater levels of overt physical aggression over time, after accounting for prior aggression. These findings support the general claim that violent video game play is associated with increases in physical aggression over time. Furthermore, the results speak to three specific criticisms of this literature by demonstrating: (i) that violent video game play is associated with increases in measures of serious aggressive behavior (i.e., overt, physical aggression), (ii) that estimates of this effect are only slightly decreased by inclusion of statistical covariates, and (iii) by finding no evidence of publication bias.
Source: https://www.pnas.org/content/115/40/9882

QuotePast research shows that violent video game exposure increases aggressive thoughts, angry feelings, physiological arousal, aggressive behaviors, and decreases helpful behaviors. However, no research has experimentally examined violent video game effects on physiological desensitization, defined as showing less physiological arousal to violence in the real world after exposure to video game violence in the virtual world. This experiment attempts to fill this gap. Participants reported their media habits and then played one of eight violent or nonviolent video games for 20 min. Next, participants watched a 10-min videotape containing scenes of real-life violence while heart rate (HR) and galvanic skin response (GSR) were monitored. Participants who previously played a violent video game had lower HR and GSR while viewing filmed real violence, demonstrating a physiological desensitization to violence.
Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022103106000825

Dude, I'll call him names if I want and IDGAF what you think is warranted since you didn't think providing evidence of your claims of me doing something was needed, just your opinion.

Furthermore, how many people play violent videogames? Has violence over all increased or decreased since the advent of video games?

IDGAF what someone thinks, I'm not the tought police, show me real world effects, where are the mass murderers, the lunatics killing people with their sword while shouting "take that you goblin!"

Can you? Nope

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Ratman_tf · October 19, 2021, 06:11:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

Ratman_tf · October 19, 2021, 06:15:30 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:36:31 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:22:16 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 03:52:15 PM
Quote
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM
QuoteWell, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing.
You are confusing playing a game with actual violence. You have yet to provide a single shred of evidence that playing a game results in real, live people being "trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun" in the real world.

What isn't clear is whether your confusion of games and reality is real or feigned.

It's axiomatic. What you participate in trains you. Everything is propaganda for something.

The question is whether such training will be seized upon by wokies and used as an excuse to neuter the gaming industry. In the age of microaggressions and "Orcs should be people" madness my money is on the current situation being unstable and decaying into something new and more constrictive.

I think we have solid evidence that 1. It doesn't train people to think a certain way, and 2. That the wokies already use that concept to try and push their ideology into entertainment.

And the backlash already shows that the situation is unstable. I think your argument is about 10 years out of date.

I don't see wokery slowing down, I see it speeding up. That some have reacted against it smacks of something akin to when people used to write letters to the editor complaining that a given policy is "political correctness gone mad!" as if that argument ever stopped political correctness from advancing itself. Ten years ago the term "political correctness" itself still had relevance; now that term has been retired after serving its purpose, replaced by "woke". You think woke isn't going to be replaced by something worse?

Please, tell me more about your confidence that the RPG citadel can withstand this incoming tidal wave. I wish to be wrong.

I'm not your oracle. I don't know how this all will shake out. Maybe we're on the cusp of America's Cultural Revolution, and we'll have struggle sessions for people who put combat in their D&D games.
I hope not. And I'll speak out about the topic, as much as I'm able.

Neoplatonist1 · October 19, 2021, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:11:58 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

Perhaps, but, are you claiming that competitiveness cannot be learned, encouraged, and enhanced? Or similarly one can't learn to be cooperative rather than competitive?

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QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

They lack the emotional maturity to play dress-up?

Ratman_tf · October 19, 2021, 06:28:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:24:11 PM
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Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.
Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

Perhaps, but, are you claiming that competitiveness cannot be learned, encouraged, and enhanced? Or similarly one can't learn to be cooperative rather than competitive?

I'm sure they can. Most sports and games teach competition and co-operation.
I don't think they train people to be a certain way, which was your original claim.

Quote
Quote
QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

They lack the emotional maturity to play dress-up?

Are you intentionally arguing in bad faith? Do I have to explain the history of Nazi Germany to you? Do you understand the context in which Nazi iconography exists?