Quote from: jdrakehCompanies lie. Frequently. Especially about stuff like this. Steve Jackson Games, for example, had been on record numerous times as saying that GURPS 4e wasn't in development, wouldn't be coming soon, and was many years down the road. Almost none of this was true, of course -- the point is that companies will (and do) lie without compunction when it serves them best to do so. Now, WotC might be the sole exception to this truth of business, though I sincerely doubt it.

It would be in WoTC's vested interest, if they really were planning a short-term release of 4e, to not say a fucking thing about it, then; not to issue a press conference where they specifically say they're NOT coming out with the new edition, just so everyone can dogpile on them for blatant lies later.

I would be the FIRST guy to be unbelievably angry at Wizards should they do such a thing. But given that it makes no business sense whatsoever, and that Wizards (unlike the rest of the Roleplaying world) is an actual real BUSINESS, I am quite confident they would not do so.

Your wishful thinking borne of some kind of twisted hate of the company notwithstanding.

RPGPundit

Just buy a copy of the Mongoose Pocket Players Handbook, that's a smaller investment and has the same material as the WotC manuals. Really, although I'd rather play Something Else(TM), the 3e core rules make for a very usable game. Of course, if you want to play pickup games with strangers, be prepered to make compromises on the "I am keeping it simple" front, because 3e people like their options.

Also, a theoretical 4e will create enough disaffected fans to recruit from for years.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo yes, ok, I'll grant that your random hearsay by some nutcases on a minor-league company's boards is pretty striking information, but I think that my ACTUAL FUCKING ANNOUNCEMENT BY WIZARDS OF THE COAST sort of trumps that a little...

Yeah, cuz WotC wouldn't lie, right? Oh, wait...that "minor league" company got an agreement from WotC that WotC wouldn't do their own 3e versions of the monsters that the minor league company was updating for its Tome of Horrors, and then WotC went ahead and started making their own versions anyway. I guess that's not lying, really, just a matter of one hand not knowing what the other was doing, huh? I can't imagine that kind of thing happening again. No, really, I can't.

Reminds me of this little exchange from The Blues Brothers:

Elwood: What was I gonna do? Take away your only hope? Take away the very thing that kept you going in there? I took the liberty of bullshitting you.
Jake: You lied to me.
Elwood: Wasn't lies, it was just... bullshit.

Quote from: RPGPunditYour wishful thinking borne of some kind of twisted hate of the company notwithstanding.

Hell, I LIKE WotC, and stick up for them quite a bit, and even I think they could be bullshitting. How about just after 3e's release, when they kept reassuring us that everything was hunky-dory, and within a couple weeks of saying that they laid off a bunch of people? Again, one could rationalize that this was another case of one hand not knowing what the other was doing, but the net effect is the same as lying.

And, by the way, I have nothing against a new edition. I'm actually curious to see what it'd be like.

When you are dealing with a product where a new revision means obsolesence for the old version, it does one well to refrain from over hyping that revision prior to release to keep the old version going strong on the market.

When people find out there's a new thing on the horizon, they tend to hold off on their purchase, much as Cali was considering here.

Nintendo denied the existence of the DS Lite over and over and over again, until the day they announced it was in stores.  An earlier announcement would've potentially harmed sales of the regular DS model, which was still going strong.  With the DS Lite being compatible with all the DS games, but with a better form factor and screen, there would've been a massive stop in the market for the original model.  

It's not at all a stretch to consider that Wizards doesn't care to comment on what's really going on vis a vis a 4th Edition for pure sales reason.  An announcement now would just harm sales of a still strong selling 3rd Edition.  

Frankly though, I really couldn't care less about a 4th Edition, because I think 3.x is damn near perfect for me.  I especially will be disappointed if all the fan speculation that SAGA is indicative of 4th Ed. mechanics, because frankly it sounds like ass to me.  And given that much of the "OMG SAGA IS TEH BETTER!" crowing is coming from 1) B/X fanboys, 2) people who didn't like D&D/3e to begin with, and 3) The same crowd that's crowed the same things about True20/M&M/C&C/Ultramegalitenano20/etc., I really hope they don't cave in to the minority Internet voice on the matter.

J Arcane,

I like the way you split up the two crowds by preference, regardless of what works better for how many etc.

It really makes me think that although it was a historical accident, TSR's choice to have two semi-compatible lines in D&D and AD&D was actually perfect, catering to two distinct preference sets (both of which are at least moderately well-subscribed) for this kind of gaming.

Quote from: CalithenaJ Arcane,

I like the way you split up the two crowds by preference, regardless of what works better for how many etc.

It really makes me think that although it was a historical accident, TSR's choice to have two semi-compatible lines in D&D and AD&D was actually perfect, catering to two distinct preference sets (both of which are at least moderately well-subscribed) for this kind of gaming.

It just seems to me that a lot of the praise for SAGA is coming from people who were already malcontents when it came to D&D3.  I've yet to see anyone who is a died-in-the-wool fan of D&D3 who is as excited as that crowd seems to be over the changes.  There's a few of the "I like 3e really!  It's just that *blah blah multi-paragraph rant about what's 'wrong' with 3e*" types, but nobody like me, and that doesn't give me any hope for it.

So if that's what's coming in 4e, then I'll stick with what I've got.

Well, that's kinda logical, isn't it. Notice that those who complained hardest about how "broken" or "outdated" AD&D was was people who didn't play it anymore... while the rest of us were having fun rolling dice and killing monsters to take their stuff.

I've certainly noticed that the harshest critics of D&D, even to this day are the ones who will also loudly boast of "only having tried it once" or often not at all.

And yet- they often seem to have an obsessive interest in it, it's a constant subject of conversation for them.

Well, that's cool.

I think I'm going to be Wizards' bitch and play whatever steaming pile of horseshit they sell with the Dungeons and Dragons name on it, no matter how badly they lie to me or how much I have to buy or how much it is unlike my dream version of the game, just so long as they can maintain their huge edge in player base and market dominance. The day there's another serious player I'll compare the games and see which one I like better, but I think I'm done with the whole specialty games market. I want to play stuff you can buy in your local book and toy stores.

(For the record, this isn't an impossible proposition. You could buy other TSR games, Tunnels and Trolls, GURPS, World of Darkness, and other top-of-the-second-tier RPGs at mall stores and toy stores once upon a time. But now that time seems to be passed, and you're hard pressed to find some of that stuff even at hobby stores. So, fuck it.)

Quote from: J ArcaneIt just seems to me that a lot of the praise for SAGA is coming from people who were already malcontents when it came to D&D3.  I've yet to see anyone who is a died-in-the-wool fan of D&D3 who is as excited as that crowd seems to be over the changes.  There's a few of the "I like 3e really!  It's just that *blah blah multi-paragraph rant about what's 'wrong' with 3e*" types, but nobody like me, and that doesn't give me any hope for it.

So if that's what's coming in 4e, then I'll stick with what I've got.

I'm digging on Saga.  Do I have a bitch list about D&D 3.x?  Sure.  But I also play the hell out of it and have a rockin' good time.  I think the mistake some people are making here is unnecessarily conflating Saga and D&D.  I don't need one to perfectly reflect the other for both games to rock.

There's no reason to buy all the books full price, especially if you have the 3.0 books already.  I find phb is handy to have as a book - you can usually find it used at games stores or places like Half Price Books (the source of over half my rpg purchases).  The MM and DMG can be handled via SRD and the old books, not much has changed.

Don't buy D&D, you don't like it.

Seanchai

Quote from: Calithena... I think I'm going to be Wizards' bitch and play whatever steaming pile of horseshit they sell with the Dungeons and Dragons name on it, no matter how badly they lie to me or how much I have to buy or how much it is unlike my dream version of the game, just so long as they can maintain their huge edge in player base and market dominance. ...

(Bold added by me.)

Hey, it's you decision and everything, but I'm still completely baffled as to why you're making this decision.  Is it just that you want to find lots of other players, and so will go with D&D no matter what (on the assumption that it remains numero uno in the marketplace)?
:confused:
I mean, if you've decided that you like D&D 3e well enough to go with it as your game from now on, that's cool.  But this commitment to go with D&D no matter what strikes me as, well, puzzling.
:raise:

Quote from: Akrasia(Bold added by me.)

Hey, it's you decision and everything, but I'm still completely baffled as to why you're making this decision.  Is it just that you want to find lots of other players, and so will go with D&D no matter what (on the assumption that it remains numero uno in the marketplace)?
:confused:
I mean, if you've decided that you like D&D 3e well enough to go with it as your game from now on, that's cool.  But this commitment to go with D&D no matter what strikes me as, well, puzzling.
:raise:

Gotta admit Calli I'm sorta baffled too, and nice to see ya again so to speak, nothing against D&D 3e, I been running a campaign since March and having a blast, and ran one for about four years 01-05 before that.
But it seems like your not all that much a fan in your heart and yet you've resigned yourself to play in it simply because it's top seller. Plenty of good games out there. Heck, reading some of your recent posts here I discovered Mazes and Minotaurs, which seems like a great game to me, you seemed excited about yourself, personally I'm dying to try it out, just a matter of finding the time.
Why the need to play what's most popular? Even if your playing lots of pick up games rather than with a regualar group, (BTW wart's up with that?) it's been my experience that gamers are usually willing try out something new, been the case with groups I've gamed with over the years anyway.