Well, network externalities are important. Maybe Cali is just really tired of never having people to play those other "cool" games with.

I'd still say that at the end of the day if you really hate D&D that wouldn't be enough of a reason to go whole-hog into it. There's a lot of other D20 alternatives, practically any of which are playable with most D&D fans; nothing is more accessible than saying "It uses the same system as D&D".  THAT is the real miracle of Network Externalities.

RPGPundit

But Calithena obviously had players for his Stormbringer game -- so either there was some ugly breakdown there, an epiphany I am not totally following here, or maybe this is another of his subtle trolls (also not an impossibility).

The original question... Calithena, you are thinking about running a simplified, or somewhat stripped down d20. Less options. Less stuff. That's cool. That's how I did it, and to good effect. It was fun, it wasn't too complicated, etcetera. But you are deluding yourself, because that isn't mainstream Dungeons&Dragons Third Point Five  Edition anymore, that's your house-ruled variant, and if you aren't playing it by the rules, you aren't playing real D&D, but Something Else anyhow -- Hell, you might as well use unbalanced third party supplements or shoddy unofficial miniatures that don't come from Approved for Official Dungeons&Dragons sources. It will be unsuitable for game store pickup games. And if you can sell it to a group, you can also sell Castles&Crusades, Tunnels&Trolls, Stormbringer, you can sell whatever you wish, with about the same effort. I discovered the same thing. The players who agreed to stripping down Real Official D&D Accept No Subsitutes also agreed to play my d20 light variant, play Castles&Crusade or just about anything else as long as I was running a game. The guy who didn't like the idea, didn't like stripped down D&D either, and only stayed around because he still liked the game enough to put up with my perverted and non-mainstream ideas about rules. So, think this through again before you commit.

No way is this thread a troll.

Nice channeling of Gary, Melan.

Four points here to discuss:

1) I need to pick a system because floating around is killing my fun and creativity, and designing one has proved beyond my abilities. My way of thinking is way too abstract for me to be a good game designer; I'm a good person for designers to talk to because I grasp structures right away, but as to which structure you actually choose, I mean, I have my preferences, but they're pretty situational, and it turns out I'm not really interested in designing games around them. I am way more interested in designing 'stuff', regardless of system.

2) I want to be able to publish some of the 'stuff' I make on PDF and sell it cheap. I don't know that I'm actually ever going to do it, but I want to have the option and feel like there's an audience for it.

3) On the network externalities thing. Melan, I don't know. I can find players for other games and have fun with them, at least  on an irregular basis. Usually they are small though - I want at least 6 regulars for my next game after the RM&M.  I could probably find a large number of players for any version of D&D (simple or not) or any reasonably simple fantasy game, so there's not a constraint there. But I guess I want

(a) anyone who plays with me to be able to play with other people too

(b) people who are new who get into it to be able to buy books, supplements, etc. locally without too much effort

(c) my game itself to be portable to cons, other areas, internet one-offs, etc. with minimal effort and re-using the same campaign world

D&D3 is a big plus for all of these things.

Also, I did a poll at Enworld which had some flaws but which seems to indicate that 80% of players are willing to put up with running BtB 3e with some options removed (and really, the only options I'm planning on removing are some classes and races and some multiclass combos, and I'll also add some new ones in based on the character of my world). Yeah, there will be that guy who's bummed that he can't make a halfling sorcerer/monk (or any monks at all - fuck monks!), or who's bummed that that feat from that one WotC book is disallowed, but ultimately I'm OK with that guy not being in my game, and if he's 1 in 10 D&D players and I have access to lots of new gamers to supplement his loss (which I do) then I think I can live with that.

4) Now there's this idea that I don't like D&D3. It's true that I got deeply frustrated with and burned out on the system after 4 years of play. But I'm really thinking now that this is a 'the perfect is the enemy of the good' thing.

Fact is, I never had anything but a blast with 3e at low levels and for one-offs at mid-high levels. I had one mid-level campaign that kind of burned out but I think it was because I had like 10 players and multiple plot threads and one or two of the players had emerged as jerks gradually and their characters had become central to the game (I kept hoping for those combat kills to get rid of them, but I don't fudge to kill.) So that actually wasn't a system problem, it was a player group problem.

The system problem I had was that I chose to convert an old campaign that's literally been running since the late seventies, with at least five DMs over the years in five different states now (California, Idaho, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky), hundreds of players, established NPCs and plot threads going back to the old old days, and LOTS OF HIGH LEVEL CHARACTERS. And this really broke me down after a while. I mean, making up balanced fights for 20th level groups takes a lot of work, right? I'll pick whatever I can from modules, but there's only so much.

Making high level monsters and challenging high level encounters for 3e is really a lot of work. It's to the game's credit that it gives you something to work with at this level, but it doesn't make it so easy to work with.

And then some of that work, particularly choosing skills and making sure your damage total lines up with those Skip Williams charts, coming up with extra feats for no reason other than the number of hit dice demand it, etc. is pretty fucking thankless bean counting - by the time I get to that point the original fantastic vision that made me want to make the creature in the first place has sort of been left behind.

But you know what? It wasn't really that bad.

There's a real gain to be had by not worrying about the system when you play and just playing the system that you have.  D&D3 is not my perfect D&D. But I don't think I can design my perfect D&D without losing all the good things in the rest of my life, if even then.

But I think it's good enough. I'm glad I learned so much about game design over the last couple of years; I'm glad I read and played so many interesting new games. I've learned a lot and in a couple cases (with Dogs in the Vineyard and Hero's Banner) I even learned something about myself.

But in the end, I'm a dragons in the basement guy, and I don't want to be anything else. Now, homebrews go back to the beginning of the hobby, and all power to those who want to chase that dream. But I want to chase down the Lord of Flame and cast him into the sea, and with my temperament, I can't focus on the how of doing this without spending too much time away from actually doing it. I have no more patience for social or intellectual hassles over this: my real life responsibilities are increasing with time.

So, I need to pick something and stick to it. And I think that needs to be D&D3.

So, if anyone still wants to talk me out of it, there you go.

Quote from: CalithenaI think I'm going to be Wizards' bitch and play whatever steaming pile of horseshit they sell with the Dungeons and Dragons name on it, no matter how badly they lie to me or how much I have to buy or how much it is unlike my dream version of the game, just so long as they can maintain their huge edge in player base and market dominance. The day there's another serious player I'll compare the games and see which one I like better, but I think I'm done with the whole specialty games market. I want to play stuff you can buy in your local book and toy stores.

I'm with you on this one. When all is said and done, I want a large, easily accessible player base, who is largely on the same page as I am regarding basic rules and expectations for the game.

I've got lots of niggling issues with D&D and 3.5, but at the end of the day, D&D3.5 is a very fun and very playable game. A lot of the things I don't necessarily like are there because they work. They might not be realistic in my mind's eye, but they work for a game. So, very playable, readily available in most big bookstore chains, large player base, and strong production values all add up to a very appealing option.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if WotC released a 4th edition much sooner than they are letting on to now. They'll try to keep things secret for as long as possible then spring the new edition on every at the last second, in order to maintain sales of 3rd edition stuff for as long as possible. I wouldn't put it past them of outright lying about the new edition for this reason. While it may be disheartening, it's certainly makes sense from a business perspective.

Also, on a slight tangent, all this Star Wars talk is getting comical. I have the new version and I really like it. However, claims of just how great it is and how much easier it is than anything else are largely overstated in my opinion. The same thing happens with lots of new games. I get the impression people are projecting their extremely high expectations of what they want the game to be rather than what the game actually is.

Back to the original topic - The D&D3.5 core books are pretty reasonable if you get them from Amazon or even eBay. PHB is really the only required book. PDF wouldn't be a bad option for the MM. I hardly ever use my DMG. Once in a while I'll browse through it for inspiration, but that's really about it.

OK I get where you're coming from and thanks for taking the time to clarify. The whole high level bean counting this is what killed my 01-04 campaign, and they weren't even that high level, 13-14, but it was plenty high for me. So I did different games for a couple years and then kicked off a second generation game, taking place twenty years later with most of the players playing the offspring of their previous characters.
Have checked out heroforge? It's an excell based, character creation app, that I have found very useful in dealing with the bean counting. Had I know about it for my last campaign I'd might still be playing it.

Quote from: Calithena... I have my preferences, but they're pretty situational, and it turns out I'm not really interested in designing games around them. I am way more interested in designing 'stuff', regardless of system.

That totally describes me as well. There's a lot of Torg, White Wolf, Earthdawn and DC Heroes content stuff still floating around the web from back when I was interested in those games. I had an entire website dedicated to cranking out content. I had a hell of a time getting people to sign on back then and try those games out, and I really didn't make much progress until I went ahead and settled on D&D3, which does most of what I like perfectly. And I adapted to mastering the rest.

From that moment on, I have never lacked for players.

For this recent WoAdWriMo 'contest' (I know it's not really a "contest") I seem to have easily beat everyone turning in my work- for not only one, but now two projects. I don't think it's because I'm especially great or anything. I think it's because I've picked an easy well-understood medium (the dungeon), and I've been creating content on a weekly basis for the last seven years so I've had the advantage of specialization. Making dungeons is dead easy, really. The hardest thing about it for me is the typing. And I can rely on tools and other services (d20srd.org, the pathguy generator, my own 'in-house' procedural methods I've developed over the last 7 years) that.. if I were to concentrate on another game (like Universe, lately) I wouldn't be able to take advantage of.  


Also, I completely identified with the line "But in the end, I'm a dragons in the basement guy, and I don't want to be anything else."

I'd rather be taking part in this hobby as a participant than a designer. Because in the end, I'm still designing, and the people who try to become designers.. all end up as salesmen.

Quote from: Calithena... So, if anyone still wants to talk me out of it, there you go.

For the record, I wasn't trying to "talk you out of it".  I was just curious as to your reasoning, since it seemed to come completletely out of the blue after your enthusiastic posts on RM&M.

Anyhow, thanks for the explanation, and good luck with it.

Quote from: Calithena- fuck monks!

Well that I can completely agree with!  :cool:

fuck monks? I knew the Prestige classes in the Complete Tantric supplement would be a bit suspect...

Quote from: CalithenaSo, if anyone still wants to talk me out of it, there you go.

You don't like D&D. Don't buy it.

Seanchai

Fuck off.

Cali, you're not an old rpg.netter. This is par for the course for mega-Troll Seanchai.

The guy has two and only two subjects: a) WOTC uber alles (and therefore D&D uber alles, as opposed to the other way around); b) moderation.

Obsessed fanboi or borderline disturbed? One isn't always sure.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityCali, you're not an old rpg.netter. This is par for the course for mega-Troll Seanchai.

Yeah...(If I did emoticons, I'd add a few roll eyes here for good measure.)

Before you decide that's the case, perhaps you should look up some of Calithena previous posts about 3e/3.5, here and at TBP.

I'm not trying to tweak anyone's nose, but his or her dislike is plain. Suddenly and publicly stating your going to pick up the game is...odd. A definite 180. Particularly when the discussion is littered with such gems as "I think I'm going to be Wizards' bitch and play whatever steaming pile of horseshit they sell with the Dungeons and Dragons name on it..."

So, in all genuineness, Calithena, don't. No good will result from it. Players and consumers will pick up on your dislike of the system - if they haven't read about your opinions first hand.

Seanchai

Gotta agree with Seanchai on this one. It's obvious from your posts that you despise the game. Why shackle yourself with something you despise?

Have you tried putting up ads for three or four different games that you do like, in three or four different stores and websites, then seeing who bites on what?

Or what about the other big names like White Wolf and Warhammer? Those tend to have fairly sizable followings and be able to attract a decent amount of players (depending on where you live of course).

Cool, no need for more discussion here. My mind's made up. D&D 3, here I come! All my other games, out the door to Ebay you go!

Got a copy of Amber in there anywhere? I could just print out my pdf but I'd rather have an actual copy if possible.