Elfdart, good call. There is a website I use periodically to come up with the demographics, though I'm not sure it gives a suggestion for deserts. Anyone know off hand how many people can live per square mile in a desert?

As far as stats for the fighting men, I do it for all the places I wrote up. The "Persian" area has like 8 or 9 different kinds of troops, the "Greek" area has two. I think seeing the stats helps characterise the area as well as explain the power level of the PCs. I usually run worlds that only have people from 1st to 6th level. Seeing that common troups are actually first level fighters and it only goes to 6th really closes the power gap. It also lets the players know exactly how good they are compared to a mook (at first level, not very good).

As far as a break down of animals, what are you looking for exactly? The traveling cell is usually about 4 families. I guess it would be nice to know how many animals of what kinds they normally have to paint the picture? I wouldn't know where to come up with that. Google again I believe.

As far as the numbers that can fight, probably thousands and thousands. The problem is the ability to organize them into a group and then to handle their logistics. I would be hard pressed to imagine them gathering up more than five or ten thousand and keep them together - assuming the whole land went to war together.

Ideas sir?

[/B]

Size:            390,000 Square Miles
Total Population:      1,700,000
Population Density:      3 people / square mile
Greatest City:         Tardor
City Population:      22,000
Number of Towns       20
Town Population      1d4x1000

[/B]

Tardor is the shining jewel of the deserts of Hezzesheol. It is situated just a few miles west of the Silver Plateau on a massive, underground spring. The Kilab tribe has prospered since they founded the city 300 years ago by controlling the water, the Silver Plateau, and the extension of the Royal Road which heads through the desert to the kingdoms north and west. Today, the city is the center of trade and culture for the whole desert.

Tardor is an absolute monarchy ruled by King Sahir and his wife Queen Layla. Queen Layla is a proud descendant of the former rulers of Niber and has in her possession the ancient artifacts of Niber. As a Niberian woman of royal blood, she has been blessed with the ability to operate the ancient devices with the skill of a sorceress. Her grace and power has helped the people of the city prosper.

The city of Tardor has a respectable tract of farmland, though its citizens think of themselves as nomads and the line between grazing pastures and cropland waxes and wanes. Those who live in the heart of the city make their living as merchants, selling and trading wares with the caravans traveling to the far north.

While the city is of a powerful and respectable size, it triples in population during the autumn festival at the Silver Plateau and continues to receive people for two to three weeks after as the nomads migrate north. While twenty thousand is small compared to greater cities such as Ashlam, Tardor maintains a powerful military presence thanks to the loyalty of the entire Kilab clan.

The Kilab were not the first to build on this site. Countless civilizations sense the dawn of time, not all of them human, have made their home on the well spring near the silvery tabletop. Underneath the city and in the sands around are the signs of previous peoples. The city itself is surrounded by 12 obelisks of ancient origin which correspond to the constellations in the night sky and are used to sorcerers to predict the future.

Quote from: Cranewings;462414Elfdart, good call. There is a website I use periodically to come up with the demographics, though I'm not sure it gives a suggestion for deserts. Anyone know off hand how many people can live per square mile in a desert?

As a practical matter, just assume a very low number for density/sustainability. It shouldn't matter if it's an Arabian-style desert, worthless heath or other lousy real estate. The point is, it can't support more than X number of people.

QuoteAs far as stats for the fighting men, I do it for all the places I wrote up. The "Persian" area has like 8 or 9 different kinds of troops, the "Greek" area has two. I think seeing the stats helps characterise the area as well as explain the power level of the PCs. I usually run worlds that only have people from 1st to 6th level. Seeing that common troups are actually first level fighters and it only goes to 6th really closes the power gap. It also lets the players know exactly how good they are compared to a mook (at first level, not very good).

I just think that instead of statting out every mook like a PC or NPC, you'd save yourself a lot of trouble and have the same results if you either (a) only listed stats that really mattered or (b) just gave a blanket bonus/penalty for mooks to reflect that they are better (or worse) than the typical mook. For example, if you have a bunch of Viking-style raiders and decide that on average they are tougher (or better fighters), rather than figuring up stats for them just give the raiders a bonus to hit points or their attack rolls and be done with it. Because let's face it: if they get wiped out by the PCs or monsters or whatever, it doesn't really matter if the average one has a 14 CON and the typical non-Viking averages a 10-11.

QuoteAs far as a break down of animals, what are you looking for exactly? The traveling cell is usually about 4 families. I guess it would be nice to know how many animals of what kinds they normally have to paint the picture? I wouldn't know where to come up with that. Google again I believe.

If these are desert/steppe nomads then they will need not only a large enough number of mounts for the fighting men to do their business, but large enough herds to produce new ones. Whether it's the Bedouins, Mongols or even the Apaches, every able-bodied adult male would have several horses and females and even youngsters would have mounts as well. You're looking at each extended family owning herds of mounts, even if it means stealing them from others. The same goes for other livestock: they would need entire herds/flocks to not only supply them with necessities but just as importantly, to supply them with new animals.

This can be important to PCs in a campaign for obvious reasons. They might need or want to buy/sell mounts. The nomads might attack them to steal their animals. The mere accusation of stealing livestock can kick up a shitstorm. I live in Texas, where you can still legally shoot someone who tries to remove one of your animals from your property after sundown.

QuoteAs far as the numbers that can fight, probably thousands and thousands. The problem is the ability to organize them into a group and then to handle their logistics. I would be hard pressed to imagine them gathering up more than five or ten thousand and keep them together - assuming the whole land went to war together.

I don't mean the civilization as a whole, I'm referring to the number from each tribe/clan that can fight. If you have a clan of 100 nomads and 10 are capable of fighting as men-at-arms (mooks) and 5 are fairly good (1-2nd level) and maybe one or two more of higher level (one of whom might be a cleric or something) then you have a good idea of what that clan is capable of handling, whether it's PCs, monsters or both.

QuoteIdeas sir?

Without knowing the scale of what you're doing, I can only offer what I've written above. The medieval demographics sites assume a population density of 180/square mile for what I guess is average land. If your nomads live in barren deserts you might cut that number to 10% or 1%. If you already know the size of the region you can easily extrapolate from that just how many people you have, and how many can fight.

By the way 390,000 square miles with 3 people to a square mile adds up to 1,170,000. Divide by 10 for the number of able-bodied males, or by 20 for man-at-arms quality. Divide by 100 for the number of men who are 1st level or higher.

Quote from: Cranewings;462231Question for the brain trust:

How were ancient Arab tribes ruled? How was political leadership acquired?

I've since returned History of the Arab Peoples to the library so don't have it handy anymore.

Has that website you've found answered this enough? My understanding is it's not terribly different than Muhammad on (at the tribal level of course).

I picture it very much like the John Milius film The Wind & the Lion, though without the leader having religious ranking (or at least certainly not Islamic). By persuasion, ties, skill, sword and shrewdness. And the luck of the (at this time) gods. Certainly patriarchal and IIRC moreso than under Islam. In general Islam provides codified rules and structure over the earlier traditions.

One thing to keep in mind, Islamic art tends not to portray the human form, especially in religious contexts, but gaming cultures based on pre-Islamic cultures would have no such restrictions and also likely less of a focus on say architecture, calligraphy, cloth and other not depictive forms of art.

As for The Thief of Baghdad, the 1924 movie is in the public domain, as is the novel.
http://www.archive.org/details/ThiefOfBagdad1924
http://www.archive.org/details/thiefofbaghdad00worm
Love the poster art http://www.johncoulthart.com/feuilleton/2010/08/12/the-thief-of-bagdad/

Quote from: Casey777;462470I've since returned History of the Arab Peoples to the library so don't have it handy anymore.

Has that website you've found answered this enough? My understanding is it's not terribly different than Muhammad on (at the tribal level of course).

I picture it very much like the John Milius film The Wind & the Lion, though without the leader having religious ranking (or at least certainly not Islamic). By persuasion, ties, skill, sword and shrewdness. And the luck of the (at this time) gods. Certainly patriarchal and IIRC moreso than under Islam. In general Islam provides codified rules and structure over the earlier traditions.

One thing to keep in mind, Islamic art tends not to portray the human form, especially in religious contexts, but gaming cultures based on pre-Islamic cultures would have no such restrictions and also likely less of a focus on say architecture, calligraphy, cloth and other not depictive forms of art.

As for The Thief of Baghdad, the 1924 movie is in the public domain, as is the novel.
http://www.archive.org/details/ThiefOfBagdad1924
http://www.archive.org/details/thiefofbaghdad00worm
Love the poster art http://www.johncoulthart.com/feuilleton/2010/08/12/the-thief-of-bagdad/

Thanks for the links to the movie. On my ipod earlier, I found the Thief of Baghdad on youtube. You are right, the movie poster is pretty sweet.

I think the links I found explained it pretty well.

Quote from: Elfdart;462452I just think that instead of statting out every mook like a PC or NPC, you'd save yourself a lot of trouble and have the same results if you either (a) only listed stats that really mattered or (b) just gave a blanket bonus/penalty for mooks to reflect that they are better (or worse) than the typical mook. For example, if you have a bunch of Viking-style raiders and decide that on average they are tougher (or better fighters), rather than figuring up stats for them just give the raiders a bonus to hit points or their attack rolls and be done with it. Because let's face it: if they get wiped out by the PCs or monsters or whatever, it doesn't really matter if the average one has a 14 CON and the typical non-Viking averages a 10-11.

I'm so familiar with Pathfinder that I think it took me about 90 seconds to write up the stats for the nomad soldier. Another reason I write them up is because I've never been comfortable with the idea of mooks. If the characters level up and become strong enough to beat common people easily, that's one thing. As first level characters, there are no mooks, just other people.

QuoteBy the way 390,000 square miles with 3 people to a square mile adds up to 1,170,000. Divide by 10 for the number of able-bodied males, or by 20 for man-at-arms quality. Divide by 100 for the number of men who are 1st level or higher.

Oh yeah, I just typed it in wrong.

I'm not sure I agree with your numbers for numbers of fighting men or first level fighters, though I see where you are getting them. The only soldiers I treat as less than level 1 fighters in my games are untrained conscripts, city folk, and slaves. Farmer / Hoplites, Nomad / Calvary and Professional Enlisted men are all level 1 fighters. One in ten are level 2 and one in 100 are level 3. That continues up to level 5, beyond which only special, named npcs are level 6. The game worlds I like to run have a pretty narrow power gap. A group of 4th level PCs can take almost any random group of 30 guys, but there are individuals all over that can fight a PC 1 on 1.

As for other stuff you posted, thanks.

Quote from: Cranewings;462414Elfdart, good call. There is a website I use periodically to come up with the demographics, though I'm not sure it gives a suggestion for deserts.

A little off topic, but is there any chance you want to share your demographics website? I'm always looking for a good resource!

Quote from: Casey777;462242Arabian Nights translations-

Tales of the Caliphate Nights recommends Husain Haddaway's Arabian Nights and Arabian Nights 2 (the latter covers the more familiar stories so is more recommended for starters). Not sure if this is the Penguin book upthread, I got these via library loan one time briefly and they were hardcover and IIRC based on slightly different texts or interpretations than the older norms in English.

No, the Penguin translation - which got a deluxe 3 hardcover set coming up (as mentioned upthread), sold at Amazon UK at quite a reduced price - is done by Lyons, not Haddawy. If you check volume I of Lyons, page xxii (on GoogleBooks), you'll see he respects Haddaway's work as a translator, but chose to go for a different primary source. So in terms of scholarly respectability, I think Haddawy is a superior choice. But I doubt that matters much for current purposes. It's just that after this review I wasn't particularly keen on getting Lyons renditions of genitalia & co.

QuoteIf one were to find fault with Lyons' monumental achievement, it would be in the painstaking plainness of his diction. Like Haddawy, Lyons falls often into linguistic traps that are avoided by the exuberant Mardrus and Mathers. Instead of "cripple" or "lame" (traditional fairy-tale adjectives), Haddawy writes "paraplegic" while Lyons has "semi-paralysed". Lyons also consistently translates the common Arabic zib and kis as "penis" and "vagina". The cumulative effect is clinical, jarringly out of place in the perfumed chambers and ghostly gardens of the Nights.

However, I'll throw in some further reviews for better measure.

By the way, you can watch all the Harryhausen Sinbad movies on YouTube.

Quote from: Tipsy;462499A little off topic, but is there any chance you want to share your demographics website? I'm always looking for a good resource!

Here you go sir.

Some of it, the occurrences of different professions is a little silly, but overall I think this article is great.

Quote from: Cranewings;462485I'm so familiar with Pathfinder that I think it took me about 90 seconds to write up the stats for the nomad soldier. Another reason I write them up is because I've never been comfortable with the idea of mooks. If the characters level up and become strong enough to beat common people easily, that's one thing. As first level characters, there are no mooks, just other people.

Well that explains it. I use three classes of low-level fighting men:

Veterans (1st-level fighters: d10 hit points)
Men-at-arms (d8 hit points -trained soldiers with little or no experience)
Schmoes/Mooks (d6 hit points -regular guys who aren't trained -or trained well, including most bandits)

QuoteOh yeah, I just typed it in wrong.

No biggie.

Quote from: Cranewings;462547Here you go sir.

Some of it, the occurrences of different professions is a little silly, but overall I think this article is great.

Thanks Cranewings, but the link didn't seem to come through.