TheRPGSite

I'm sitting here at star bucks, working on my home brew Pathfinder world. This is the first time I've tried to develop anything for the Arabic portion, the Hezzesheol. Other than the little I picked up about pre-Islamic Arabia in my history of Islam class, I don't know a whole fucking lot about it (although I'm a quick study when it comes to getting the short of something off of Wikipedia).

I went to the LFGS and picked up this comic:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zFJk1NTOzvQ/S2Ixb1Lvp8I/AAAAAAAAKIQ/OvdDbmsrTvo/s400/Aladdin%231_IncentiveCover_CCrain.jpg)

Sense I don't feel like reading 1001 Nights just yet (;

I bring all this up because, while I was there, I noticed they have a copy of the original Al-Qadim campaign setting book. I would have snatched it up, knowing that I was going to start working on this, but they want 30 dollars for it.

I feel pretty confident that I can read a little about the ancient world, mythology, and warfare, and put together something convincing. A lot of times RP supplements are dumb as hell and full of shit. I've read enough bad ones that I have to pause when I see a price tag like that. I've never known anyone that played in that setting.

The back of the book lists a lot of cool stuff. Is it worth getting? Would it help a lot with writing up a Pathfinder / Ancient Arabic setting? Could I get a lot of work done just by converting things from it? Is it historical like the TV show Rome or historical like the TV show Zena?

Quote from: Cranewings;462157I bring all this up because, while I was there, I noticed they have a copy of the original Al-Qadim campaign setting book. I would have snatched it up, knowing that I was going to start working on this, but they want 30 dollars for it.

I feel pretty confident that I can read a little about the ancient world, mythology, and warfare, and put together something convincing. A lot of times RP supplements are dumb as hell and full of shit. I've read enough bad ones that I have to pause when I see a price tag like that. I've never known anyone that played in that setting.

The back of the book lists a lot of cool stuff. Is it worth getting? Would it help a lot with writing up a Pathfinder / Ancient Arabic setting? Could I get a lot of work done just by converting things from it? Is it historical like the TV show Rome or historical like the TV show Zena?

The setting stuff is a pretty skeletal overview - nothing you couldn't get from primary sources with a little work. It's not historical; there are Orcs hanging out in the bazaar and ancient cities of the Yak Folk. Some character archetypes you could rework into feats or PrCs if you wanted to. I think the magic chapters are interesting and have some cool content that I made a lot of use of in the 2e days. So overall while I think it was decently well done it's not a crucial book. Some of the expansions for the line were good - I liked Cities of Bone and there are some concepts worth adapting in the Sha'ir book, but they don't depend on the core book either.

But frankly what you want to do is read the 1,001 nights after all. That is RPG gold.

Quote from: Cole;462159The setting stuff is a pretty skeletal overview - nothing you couldn't get from primary sources with a little work. It's not historical; there are Orcs hanging out in the bazaar and ancient cities of the Yak Folk. Some character archetypes you could rework into feats or PrCs if you wanted to. I think the magic chapters are interesting and have some cool content that I made a lot of use of in the 2e days. So overall while I think it was decently well done it's not a crucial book. Some of the expansions for the line were good - I liked Cities of Bone and there are some concepts worth adapting in the Sha'ir book, but they don't depend on the core book either.

But frankly what you want to do is read the 1,001 nights after all. That is RPG gold.

I've got two novels I keep picking at, but me and my fiancee just got a house and I just had finals - so studying and painting have destroyed my pleasure reading. I really should read it, I know.

Side question - I can't find anything on line about early Arabic warfare. Besides riding dromedaries and shooting arrows, what did they do? Its so easy to find information on Persia and Greece. There isn't much on Arabia.

Quote from: Cranewings;462160I've got two novels I keep picking at, but me and my fiancee just got a house and I just had finals - so studying and painting have destroyed my pleasure reading. I really should read it, I know.

Fair enough; on the up side it is a collection of tales you can read a bit at a time.

Quote from: Cranewings;462160Side question - I can't find anything on line about early Arabic warfare. Besides riding dromedaries and shooting arrows, what did they do? Its so easy to find information on Persia and Greece. There isn't much on Arabia.

I am in no way an expert on this period so I'm not sure about a good online source for the equipment and fighting techniques of the armies, if that's what you are asking. Maybe go to a local library and see if they can get you some of the relevant Osprey volumes through Borrow Direct?

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Armies-of-the-Muslim-Conquest-_9781855322790

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Armies-of-Islam-7th%E2%80%9311th-Centuries_9780850454482

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Saladin-and-the-Saracens_9780850456820

This is late but might interest you nonetheless, (excerpts from) "A Mamluk Manual of War from the Fourteenth Century (http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/muslimmanual.htm)"

Possibly relevant wiki articles that might help you find sources :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Arab_Wars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_Hispania

Cole, thanks for the links. I wouldn't have thought of finding those books in particular. Sometime in the future I'm certain to run a game set in the crusades.

This game world, I've been pretty consistent with setting the technology level around 300 B.C. for all of the cultures. That's been the problem with reading about Arabia. Its so overshadowed by the Greeks and Persians, its hard to find anything on Google.

You might also check out True20's Tales of the Caliphate Nights if you can find it. The story-within-story stuff is pretty awesome.

So. can we see this when you are done with it Cranewings? I'm a sucker for good Arabian fantasy stuff. I loved Al Qadim since it was rather interesting for its time. Now I'd like something mind expanding. Write it!


Maybe someone will do an Arabic setting for High Valor...

Silver Lion, this is all I got done tonight. Going to bed, but I have a start:

Overview

   Hezzesheol is the name given to the great north-eastern desert by men the world over. It is a vast, dangerous, inhospitable land whose culture is born from hardship. Only a tiny portion of the southern land provides fertile valleys which support agriculture and therefore, permanent settlements and kingdoms. Much of the rest of the land is populated by rugged nomads and herders. The people of Hezzesheol do not see themselves as a single people, but as different tribes and kingdoms, each with its own religion, material culture, and way of life.

   The prosperous southern region is ruled by three kingdoms. Once unified, each kingdom is now ruled by the descendants of the first king, King Muhsin. His sons successfully established hereditary monarchies which have endured for 12 generations. In the interest of peace, the three families have intermarried since their inception.

The three kingdoms are tied together militarily, as well as politically. For fear of the Zathurm in the south and the nomadic tribes to their north, each kingdom has dedicated itself to the construction of beautiful but fearsome palaces along their borders. In the north, each town is fortified by walls and earthworks. In the south, the few clear mountain passes are guarded by great fortresses. Like the walls of Troy, they rise into the sky and provide a formidable barrier to even King Kamram the Godly.

A fourth kingdom of mysterious power and beauty exists in the desert land’s north east. A peninsula of life that claims a portion of the desert is home to a godly people that believe the desert was given life as a gift for their righteousness. There, the golden citadel looms over the land – a tower of pure gold raised into the sky to honor the sun and speak to the sun’s glory.

While the kingdoms in the south are peacefully aligned, a vicious war for control over the trade routes has raged between the merchant guilds, kings, and thieves’ guilds. The mountain passes are virtually impossible to watch and so tradesmen are forced to pay a high price for protection if they wish to sell their wares for Hezzesheol gold. The merchant guilds are not just at war with the thieves or maneuvering for political recognition; they are at war with one another.

Quote from: Cranewings;462163Cole, thanks for the links. I wouldn't have thought of finding those books in particular. Sometime in the future I'm certain to run a game set in the crusades.

This game world, I've been pretty consistent with setting the technology level around 300 B.C. for all of the cultures. That's been the problem with reading about Arabia. Its so overshadowed by the Greeks and Persians, its hard to find anything on Google.

Oh, I missed that by "early" you meant that far back in the past. I guess I was thrown off by the Arabian Nights reference. So you mean like the roughly Hellenic area guys like the nabataean, sabaean, minaean kingdoms, sorry, I don't have any idea about a source specifically about warfare there, anything I know about that is from greek/roman sources to begin with : /

There is an Osprey about the ancient middle east which depicts libyan, syrian, arabian tribal warriors/mercenaries but that deals with a much much earlier period of time and only has the briefest information about each group.

Quote from: JDCorley;462164You might also check out True20's Tales of the Caliphate Nights if you can find it. The story-within-story stuff is pretty awesome.

Interesting - How does the story-within-story aspect play out? Do you have a separate storyteller character and actor character, sort of a modified troupe style?

Cole, I'll look up the osprey stuff. I honestly don't know when Arabian nights is set. I thought it was pre Islamic.

Quote from: Cranewings;462172Cole, I'll look up the osprey stuff. I honestly don't know when Arabian nights is set. I thought it was pre Islamic.

When it is set is not a question with an easy answer since it collects/adapts tales from many times and not all are of arabic origin. The collection probably comes from 10th century at least some form of it.

Which version of the Arabian Nights is recommended?
The only version I've ever owned is basically a children's book from the '30s... so I'd imagine there were more extensive and accurate translations available.

Penguin books has recently done a very good translation of the tales. It comes in three volumes and is available in paperback. Later this year they will republish the hardback version (hoping the folks get this for me for Christmas; have been dropping hints.)

If you don't want to tackle the entire collection of tales, there's a very good translation of a selection of the tales by Husain Haddawy. Its listed on Amazon for 12.95. Another book to consider is The Arabian Nights: A Companion by Robert Irwin. I just finished reading this a few weeks ago and its a very interesting look at the Tales and what they tell us about the early Arabian cultures which spawned them. Using the Tales as a starting point he talks about the criminal underclass, views about magic and the supernatural world, an average citizens place in the society and, of course, the role of the professional storyteller. There's a ton of stuff you can lift from that one resource.

Dunno if this is useful but
http://www.al-qadim.com/  (http://www.al-qadim.com/)
(under submissions) has a 2E/3E conversion guide and a netbook (among other things) that may be interesting.

Quote from: Cranewings;462157I'm sitting here at star bucks, working on my home brew Pathfinder world. This is the first time I've tried to develop anything for the Arabic portion, the Hezzesheol. Other than the little I picked up about pre-Islamic Arabia in my history of Islam class, I don't know a whole fucking lot about it (although I'm a quick study when it comes to getting the short of something off of Wikipedia).

I went to the LFGS and picked up this comic:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zFJk1NTOzvQ/S2Ixb1Lvp8I/AAAAAAAAKIQ/OvdDbmsrTvo/s400/Aladdin%231_IncentiveCover_CCrain.jpg)

Sense I don't feel like reading 1001 Nights just yet (;

I bring all this up because, while I was there, I noticed they have a copy of the original Al-Qadim campaign setting book. I would have snatched it up, knowing that I was going to start working on this, but they want 30 dollars for it.

I feel pretty confident that I can read a little about the ancient world, mythology, and warfare, and put together something convincing. A lot of times RP supplements are dumb as hell and full of shit. I've read enough bad ones that I have to pause when I see a price tag like that. I've never known anyone that played in that setting.

The back of the book lists a lot of cool stuff. Is it worth getting? Would it help a lot with writing up a Pathfinder / Ancient Arabic setting? Could I get a lot of work done just by converting things from it? Is it historical like the TV show Rome or historical like the TV show Zena?

The AD&D setting is good if you don't want to research and build your own campaign. Like others have said it isn't historical. But it works great for Arabian Nights style campaigns.

I've run both al-Qadim and a more authentic campaign based on real history. In my experience it was much easier for the players to grasp the al-Qadim setting than it was to grasp the historical one (even though I layered it with myth and supernatural). I think people felt more obligated to understand the history and culture of the authentic setting. al-Qadim is simplified and tweaked enough that its pretty digestible (in terms of grasping the key cultural differences and key setting concepts quickly).

For what its worthy my authentic setting completely nosedived. Between the names, the detailed cultural and historical context, etc, the players just had a hard time keeping pace with things (though most of this was definitely my own fault in how I presented things).

Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;462180Another book to consider is The Arabian Nights: A Companion by Robert Irwin. I just finished reading this a few weeks ago and its a very interesting look at the Tales and what they tell us about the early Arabian cultures which spawned them. Using the Tales as a starting point he talks about the criminal underclass, views about magic and the supernatural world, an average citizens place in the society and, of course, the role of the professional storyteller. There's a ton of stuff you can lift from that one resource.

I will have to check this out; this sounds like good reading. Is Irwin is the translator of the penguin volumes or am I misremembering?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;462186The AD&D setting is good if you don't want to research and build your own campaign. Like others have said it isn't historical. But it works great for Arabian Nights style campaigns.

I've run both al-Qadim and a more authentic campaign based on real history. In my experience it was much easier for the players to grasp the al-Qadim setting than it was to grasp the historical one (even though I layered it with myth and supernatural). I think people felt more obligated to understand the history and culture of the authentic setting. al-Qadim is simplified and tweaked enough that its pretty digestible (in terms of grasping the key cultural differences and key setting concepts quickly).

For what its worthy my authentic setting completely nosedived. Between the names, the detailed cultural and historical context, etc, the players just had a hard time keeping pace with things (though most of this was definitely my own fault in how I presented things).

This makes sense to me. I think that some players can both be wary of the primal dread of there being a "quiz at the end," and feel constrained by the sense that they will be more constrained by the "force of history" in a real-world historical setting. Whether it's motivated by respect or resentment or performance anxiety will vary from player to player but I do think a lot of players don't engage as full-bloodedly with the historical setting.

Why hasn't GURPS Arabian Nights been mentioned? An excellent RPG resource on things both mythical and historical. I came across it at a FLGS and picked it up inspite of not ever planning on running GURPS anymore.

Quote from: Cole;462194This makes sense to me. I think that some players can both be wary of the primal dread of there being a "quiz at the end," and feel constrained by the sense that they will be more constrained by the "force of history" in a real-world historical setting. Whether it's motivated by respect or resentment or performance anxiety will vary from player to player but I do think a lot of players don't engage as full-bloodedly with the historical setting.

I definitely got a lot of this after the game. More than one player said "I just don't know enough about the time period and location to play my character".

Pre-Islamic Arabia is not well documented from what I've seen. The tribes tended to serve whoever was paying them the best and there was certainly no unity like what Islam provided them. Osprey books on Roman/Byzantine and Persian/Parthian/Sassanid Persian armies typically have a bit on their respective Arab allies. Usually they supplemented their own arms, armor and clothing with that of their sponsors when they could but still retained their own look and fighting styles.

However they were not seen as very reliable or good troops and tended to raid whoever they could when the opportunity presented itself. Something of a desert version of the later Cossacks. OTOH armored camels are so fun!

FWIW David Nicolle tends to write the Islamic and related Osprey books, including more than the just the "uniform" books (Men At Arms, Elite, Warrior etc.) series, like the histories and the various hardcover books intended for libraries and normal bookstores.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/authors/david_nicolle
The Warhammer Ancients book on chariot warfare covers the *very* early stuff nicely and really like their Late Roman and Byzantine books but dunno how much that overlaps with what you want.

WRG (Wargames Research Group) has the classic Armies of series books with tons of b&w illos still ripped off by miniature makers to this day and concisely written for wargamers even if a bit outdated research wise and somewhat hard to find. Armies of the Ancient Near East might be a too early, the Greek/Alexander and Roman ones cover the East some and the Crusades/Eastern Europe etc. ones definitely cover the Islamic armies. Pretty much any gameable army in the time period covered in those books is represented there somewhere.


Yeah GURPS Arabian Nights is arguably more about the historical underpinnings of the Arabian Nights than the setting depicted in the stories and should be well worth a look see for the OP's purposes. The author did a great job but evidently a significant number of players just wanted to play stock cliched Arabian Nights, which is fine, but not what the book is mostly about.

By Al-Qadim setting book do you mean the core softcover rules (Arabian Adventures subheading) or the Land of Fate setting boxed set? The first is more just AD&D2E rules with a thumbnail of the culture and setting while the boxed set has much more setting detail than rules. To game with you really need both, if you were using AD&D2E at least.

Tales of the Caliphate is also good yes, and I found my copy at Half-Price Books for $10, 1/5 the cover price. They had stacks and not just at one location. If there's none local to you try their website or sites like abebooks or Powell's. It is historically based and covers the whole history of Islam and surrounding cultures up to the time of the ruler in 1001 Nights.

It was the soft back I found. I haven't seen the box set yet.

To all:

I just found this golden nugget and started reading: http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/ois5.pdf

Question for the brain trust:

How were ancient Arab tribes ruled? How was political leadership acquired?

Our al-Qadim campaign was a huge hit because:

1. No one took it seriously.

2. The DM used the books mostly for the classes and monsters, and substituted the "Loregiver" faith for real, honest-to-God Islam. The conflict between Islam and pre-Islamic elements (monsters, magic etc.) was a lot like the whole "Church vs. fey folk" you get in Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions and made for an interesting, atmospheric game.

3. Did I mention that no one took it seriously? DM included. He cribbed from the Al-Qadim books and from actual Arabic history and myth as it suited him; the more outré, the better. Great stuff.

I have an autographed copy of GURPS Arabian Nights, phear my nerd (hipster?) cred.

As for the tale-within-a-tale of Caliphate Nights, the player whose character is launching the story spends a point of Conviction and assigns the roles in the story to other characters, using the diceless/simplified characters rules. As the story continues, the GM is keeping track of positive and negative story elements for the audience (does it cater to their interests, etc.)  At the end, you total up the elements and that's the bonus/penalty to whatever you're trying to do with the audience.  Time distortions are common in the Arabian Nights (4 years in the salt mines pass in two sentences) so the length of time of the framed story is not too relevant.

After skimming that pdf, looks useful ayup. An example Arabic tribe mentioned there, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassanids

And a related Osprey book, Yarmuk AD 636 The Muslim conquest of Syria
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Yarmuk-AD-636-_9781855324145
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yarmouk

I've found this very useful in bridging the gap between late Roman Empire (Early Byzantine) and early Islamic conquests. It's also a good and significant battle. Opening champion duels FTW!

Arabian Nights translations-

Tales of the Caliphate Nights recommends Husain Haddaway's Arabian Nights and Arabian Nights 2 (the latter covers the more familiar stories so is more recommended for starters). Not sure if this is the Penguin book upthread, I got these via library loan one time briefly and they were hardcover and IIRC based on slightly different texts or interpretations than the older norms in English.

It also gives mention of Robert Irwin's The Arabian Nights: A Companion (mentioned up thread), A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani and Daily Life in the Medieval Islamic World by James E. Lindsay among others. I've read A History of the Arab Peoples and found it to be a good single volume readable history and cultural overview covering from pre-Islam to much later than 1001 Nights. So read what you need from it. ;)

IIRC the Wikipedia article on 1001 Nights was useful in tracking down other good in print versions.

Films-

Also GO SEE Ray Harryhausen's Sinbad films. NOW!
The 7th Voyage of Sinbad
The Golden Voyage of Sinbad
Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger
- stuff like this is likely what players will be expecting more than anything else, mind it's actually rather good fun and highlights the explorative nature of the culture

Caliphate Nights also recommends The Message on the beginnings of Islam and Hallmark's 1999 Arabian Nights.

Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut is pretty good too, even if it's 2nd-3rd Crusade era stuffs. The banners, the banners...


Finally I must give props to Clash's upcoming Outremer game, even if it's set in alt.1560 where the Crusader states didn't fall. (waves to the flying mouse!)

Quote from: Casey777;462242Also GO SEE Ray Harryhausen's Sinbad films. NOW!

I was watching TCM the other day and they showed a pre-Harryhausen Sinbad film that I hadn't seen since I was a wee kiddie, 'Captain Sindbad'.
It was missing the animated monsters but otherwise seemed much the same as the Harryhausen ones... including a somewhat lackluster Sindbad (the guy who played the papa Robinson on Lost In Space).
The bit that made a big impression on me as a kid is where Sindbad fights a giant disembodied hand... while trying to get at the heart of an evil sorcerer that is being kept in a jar.

As long as we are talking about film inspiration, there's also "Thief of Baghdad." Yes, its 'Hollywood Arabian Nights,' but if you run a game that uses some of these elements you are bound to have fun.

http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/MEHBKNMD.html

I found this website which is pretty cool for my stupid ass. Here is a quote:

QuoteSOCIAL EXCHANGES

 

1. There is much mutual ignorance, some ill feeling and prejudice and some social interaction between nomads and the settled population. Usually an uneasy peace exists in which nomads and villagers exchange their various commodities.

2. The potential hostility is due to competition between the two groups over marginal lands that lie between the cultivated zone and the pastoral grazing areas. Nomads may also cause damage to village crops if they let their animals stray onto farmer's fields before they are harvested. With growing population pressures conflicts are on the increase. Villagers expand their cultivation into nomad lands, commercial stock breeders send their herds into nomad grazing grounds.

3. Conflict and antipathy do not prevent interaction. Intermarriage takes place - Tapper in "Pasture and Politics" claims nomads give 20% of their daughters to villagers and receive 10% of their wives from villagers. Alliances of convenience are also formed for economic reasons.

4. There is a constant movement of nomads settling down and of villagers becoming nomads.

5. Nomads supply villagers with news and information on the outside world which they glean from their extensive migration and widespread kin networks.

6. Some nomads have relatives in the villages with whom they regularly cooperate in joint ventures. Some wealthier nomads own shares in village lands acting as absentee landlords.

Quote from: Simlasa;462299I was watching TCM the other day and they showed a pre-Harryhausen Sinbad film that I hadn't seen since I was a wee kiddie, 'Captain Sindbad'.
It was missing the animated monsters but otherwise seemed much the same as the Harryhausen ones... including a somewhat lackluster Sindbad (the guy who played the papa Robinson on Lost In Space).
The bit that made a big impression on me as a kid is where Sindbad fights a giant disembodied hand... while trying to get at the heart of an evil sorcerer that is being kept in a jar.

Sinbad movies have always been a bigger influence on my D&D games than any of the usual suspects (Howard, Lieber, Tolkien, Vance, et al). The Thief of Bagdad, too. They're fun, silly, colorful and are more entertaining than the books by the above-mentioned writers, and MUCH more entertaining than any of the movies based on them.

Caroline Munro in The Golden Voyage of Sinbad by herself gives two very good reasons to watch the movie:

(http://www.stomptokyo.com/sings/sinbad/gold-sinbad-m3.jpg)(http://www.stomptokyo.com/sings/sinbad/gold-sinbad-m4.jpg)

Bit of a redo - this is what I have written up so far for the background on my game. I haven't written much about the southern kingdoms: this is all about desert nomads.

I'm still trying to find more about Arabian folklore so I can come up with stuff about magic and wizards.

Any kind of critique would be nice.


   The land known as Hezzesheol is one of the harshest places in the world. Its deserts, sparsely dotted with water, are ruled by a nomadic people. The "Shoels" as they are known, live in small groups of usually 3 or 4 families which travel the land in search of scarce resources for their herds of goats, sheep, dromedaries and camels.

   There are twelve major tribes of Hezzesheol: Kilab, Murad, Banu, Judham, Numayr, Mahrah, Ghatafan, Sulaym, Hanifah, Tamin, Hawazan and Bahila. Each tribe is ruled by a sheikh and lead by a council of elders. The council of elders appoints the sheikh and informally determines its own membership accepting them if their age and prestige are sufficient.

It is a rare day when all of the elders of the land are able to meet. In fact, it happens just once a year. Every year on the Autumnal Equinox, thousands of men gather at the Silver Plateau for a moot. During this moot, tribal business is handled, religious rituals are carried out, and a feast is held.

   The need to remain in small groups due to the lack of concentrated resources prevents the tribes from assembling in larger numbers except where permanent settlements have been established at scattered oases. These settlements were almost always established through force of arms and are always under threat by nomads of other tribes that want the resources for themselves.


   The nomads of Hezzesheol are ancestor and spirit worshippers. They believe that the sun god has left men to fend for themselves, but through righteousness can find their way into the fields of plenty. Those who follow their path practice religious ritual, prayer to the spirits and meditation to prepare their souls to find the light that leads to the fields. Should they succeed, they will become spirits capable to interceding on the behalf of the tribe and family they had in life. Through this arrangement, the dead can provide spells to the living.

   The members of each tribe have a powerful oral tradition. Most members can recite the names, deeds, and stories of a thousand righteous men that came before, and the stories of virtually every man they directly descended from. The assumption that the elders of the tribe have a greater mastery over the oral tradition, and are themselves soon to become honored spirits, gives them authority over the tribe.

   The moot at the Silver Plateau is the greatest festival of the year, lasting for two weeks. The celebration gives the tribes time to finish any local business before traveling north for the season. Large decisions, such as the decision to go to war, are discussed at the moot. Sheikhs, while doubling as political and religious leaders, commune with the spirit world to seek answers and assistance for their people. Silver Plateau has an enormous permanent stone floor on its center. The center dais has a collection of idols from every tribe, each one beautifully painted. It is this dais that serves as the focus for all of the ceremonies.


   Along the southern border of the desert there is a great deal of pasture land which is technically under the influence of the three kingdoms. Many of the people who live there consider themselves nomads. At any given point, whole families will settle down to farm or get up and leave into the desert. This situation makes the Sheol very difficult to tax, threaten or control.

        Animal husbandry is the principal means of subsistence for the Sheol. Dromedaries, camels, sheep and goats provide wool, meat, blood, work and wealth for the people of the desert. That said, the Sheol are not completely self sufficient. They trade substantially with settled communities for any number of goods they can't provide themselves. The nomads and the settled communities are completely bound together both through culture and economics.

   The Sheol consider themselves more righteous than settled people. They believe that the desert lets them see clearly into the spirit world and that their unchanging way of life lets them have a direct connection to their ancestors. They believe that they are healthier and cleaner that settled peoples (which is true). They also believe that they are braver in battle and have a more generous and egalitarian society (which may also be true).

   Their culture is very concerned with honor and shame. Like the Zathum, the nomads of Hezzesheol treat so called, "lie-followers," with distain. Anyone the acts against the community, tells a lie or fails to uphold tradition can be ostracized, which has dire consequences under the desert sun. Both crime and sin are rare, for their lives are usually good but the ability to punish a criminal with anything other than exile or death is limited.

   All justice is handled by the tribal system. No one has an intrinsic right to life or possessions on their own. It is only though their tribal association that they can expect to receive justice or fair treatment by the men of their own land. The famous saying goes, "me against my brother; me and my brother against my cousin; me, my brother and my cousin against the stranger." In this harsh climate where there is little to go around, it is important to understand the fact that everyone has to make sure that they survive themselves, and then their family and then their tribe. In harsh times, this attitude can lead to very natural and bloody conflicts over the oases.

   Like so many others, the Nomads of Hezzesheol have a warrior culture. There isn't a professional military but when the elders call for battle, their ranks fill with the common people of the Sheol, all of which are capable warriors. It can take a season for the word for an army to assemble, often requiring the elders to wait for a spring or fall moot to send out the call to arms.

   The nomadic tribes often provide support for the four kingdoms as mercenaries. In fact, their numbers and prowess are so great that they have the capacity to make or break kingdoms. The people that have ruled the three southern kingdoms for so long were originally a nomadic tribe. It is only their connection to the elders that has allowed them to stay in power for so long.

   While there may be some differences in equipment due to the wealth of the individual, the Sheol army is usually composed of a single type of soldier – the mounted warrior.
[/B]
For Mount – See Herd Animal – Camel on pg 154 of Bestiary 2

STR 12
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10

HP 12 /
AC 17 Base 10, Armored Coat +4, Dex +2, Light Wooden Shield +1 (May Substitute Scale +5 or Chain Shirt +4 for Armored Coat)

BAB +1
CMB +4
CMD 14

Melee Attack (w/o mounted or power attacking modifiers): Straight Long Sword +3 Strike, Damage 1d8+1, Crit 19+
Ranged Attack: Short Bow +3 Strike, 1d6+1 Damage

Feats and Abilities

Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Power Attack
Weapon Focus – Long Sword

Left Blank for Now

Interesting stuff. I am curious why you included character stats for what are basically men-at-arms or maybe 1st level fighting men. The only time stats should be an issue is if they're high or low enough to make a difference. Otherwise, why bother?

The only thing lacking is a rough breakdown of numbers: how many people? how many can fight? how many are good at fighting? ringers? A breakdown of animals (esp. camels, horses, donkeys) is also important for several reasons.

Elfdart, good call. There is a website I use periodically to come up with the demographics, though I'm not sure it gives a suggestion for deserts. Anyone know off hand how many people can live per square mile in a desert?

As far as stats for the fighting men, I do it for all the places I wrote up. The "Persian" area has like 8 or 9 different kinds of troops, the "Greek" area has two. I think seeing the stats helps characterise the area as well as explain the power level of the PCs. I usually run worlds that only have people from 1st to 6th level. Seeing that common troups are actually first level fighters and it only goes to 6th really closes the power gap. It also lets the players know exactly how good they are compared to a mook (at first level, not very good).

As far as a break down of animals, what are you looking for exactly? The traveling cell is usually about 4 families. I guess it would be nice to know how many animals of what kinds they normally have to paint the picture? I wouldn't know where to come up with that. Google again I believe.

As far as the numbers that can fight, probably thousands and thousands. The problem is the ability to organize them into a group and then to handle their logistics. I would be hard pressed to imagine them gathering up more than five or ten thousand and keep them together - assuming the whole land went to war together.

Ideas sir?

[/B]

Size:            390,000 Square Miles
Total Population:      1,700,000
Population Density:      3 people / square mile
Greatest City:         Tardor
City Population:      22,000
Number of Towns       20
Town Population      1d4x1000

[/B]

Tardor is the shining jewel of the deserts of Hezzesheol. It is situated just a few miles west of the Silver Plateau on a massive, underground spring. The Kilab tribe has prospered since they founded the city 300 years ago by controlling the water, the Silver Plateau, and the extension of the Royal Road which heads through the desert to the kingdoms north and west. Today, the city is the center of trade and culture for the whole desert.

Tardor is an absolute monarchy ruled by King Sahir and his wife Queen Layla. Queen Layla is a proud descendant of the former rulers of Niber and has in her possession the ancient artifacts of Niber. As a Niberian woman of royal blood, she has been blessed with the ability to operate the ancient devices with the skill of a sorceress. Her grace and power has helped the people of the city prosper.

The city of Tardor has a respectable tract of farmland, though its citizens think of themselves as nomads and the line between grazing pastures and cropland waxes and wanes. Those who live in the heart of the city make their living as merchants, selling and trading wares with the caravans traveling to the far north.

While the city is of a powerful and respectable size, it triples in population during the autumn festival at the Silver Plateau and continues to receive people for two to three weeks after as the nomads migrate north. While twenty thousand is small compared to greater cities such as Ashlam, Tardor maintains a powerful military presence thanks to the loyalty of the entire Kilab clan.

The Kilab were not the first to build on this site. Countless civilizations sense the dawn of time, not all of them human, have made their home on the well spring near the silvery tabletop. Underneath the city and in the sands around are the signs of previous peoples. The city itself is surrounded by 12 obelisks of ancient origin which correspond to the constellations in the night sky and are used to sorcerers to predict the future.

Quote from: Cranewings;462414Elfdart, good call. There is a website I use periodically to come up with the demographics, though I'm not sure it gives a suggestion for deserts. Anyone know off hand how many people can live per square mile in a desert?

As a practical matter, just assume a very low number for density/sustainability. It shouldn't matter if it's an Arabian-style desert, worthless heath or other lousy real estate. The point is, it can't support more than X number of people.

QuoteAs far as stats for the fighting men, I do it for all the places I wrote up. The "Persian" area has like 8 or 9 different kinds of troops, the "Greek" area has two. I think seeing the stats helps characterise the area as well as explain the power level of the PCs. I usually run worlds that only have people from 1st to 6th level. Seeing that common troups are actually first level fighters and it only goes to 6th really closes the power gap. It also lets the players know exactly how good they are compared to a mook (at first level, not very good).

I just think that instead of statting out every mook like a PC or NPC, you'd save yourself a lot of trouble and have the same results if you either (a) only listed stats that really mattered or (b) just gave a blanket bonus/penalty for mooks to reflect that they are better (or worse) than the typical mook. For example, if you have a bunch of Viking-style raiders and decide that on average they are tougher (or better fighters), rather than figuring up stats for them just give the raiders a bonus to hit points or their attack rolls and be done with it. Because let's face it: if they get wiped out by the PCs or monsters or whatever, it doesn't really matter if the average one has a 14 CON and the typical non-Viking averages a 10-11.

QuoteAs far as a break down of animals, what are you looking for exactly? The traveling cell is usually about 4 families. I guess it would be nice to know how many animals of what kinds they normally have to paint the picture? I wouldn't know where to come up with that. Google again I believe.

If these are desert/steppe nomads then they will need not only a large enough number of mounts for the fighting men to do their business, but large enough herds to produce new ones. Whether it's the Bedouins, Mongols or even the Apaches, every able-bodied adult male would have several horses and females and even youngsters would have mounts as well. You're looking at each extended family owning herds of mounts, even if it means stealing them from others. The same goes for other livestock: they would need entire herds/flocks to not only supply them with necessities but just as importantly, to supply them with new animals.

This can be important to PCs in a campaign for obvious reasons. They might need or want to buy/sell mounts. The nomads might attack them to steal their animals. The mere accusation of stealing livestock can kick up a shitstorm. I live in Texas, where you can still legally shoot someone who tries to remove one of your animals from your property after sundown.

QuoteAs far as the numbers that can fight, probably thousands and thousands. The problem is the ability to organize them into a group and then to handle their logistics. I would be hard pressed to imagine them gathering up more than five or ten thousand and keep them together - assuming the whole land went to war together.

I don't mean the civilization as a whole, I'm referring to the number from each tribe/clan that can fight. If you have a clan of 100 nomads and 10 are capable of fighting as men-at-arms (mooks) and 5 are fairly good (1-2nd level) and maybe one or two more of higher level (one of whom might be a cleric or something) then you have a good idea of what that clan is capable of handling, whether it's PCs, monsters or both.

QuoteIdeas sir?

Without knowing the scale of what you're doing, I can only offer what I've written above. The medieval demographics sites assume a population density of 180/square mile for what I guess is average land. If your nomads live in barren deserts you might cut that number to 10% or 1%. If you already know the size of the region you can easily extrapolate from that just how many people you have, and how many can fight.

By the way 390,000 square miles with 3 people to a square mile adds up to 1,170,000. Divide by 10 for the number of able-bodied males, or by 20 for man-at-arms quality. Divide by 100 for the number of men who are 1st level or higher.

Quote from: Cranewings;462231Question for the brain trust:

How were ancient Arab tribes ruled? How was political leadership acquired?

I've since returned History of the Arab Peoples to the library so don't have it handy anymore.

Has that website you've found answered this enough? My understanding is it's not terribly different than Muhammad on (at the tribal level of course).

I picture it very much like the John Milius film The Wind & the Lion, though without the leader having religious ranking (or at least certainly not Islamic). By persuasion, ties, skill, sword and shrewdness. And the luck of the (at this time) gods. Certainly patriarchal and IIRC moreso than under Islam. In general Islam provides codified rules and structure over the earlier traditions.

One thing to keep in mind, Islamic art tends not to portray the human form, especially in religious contexts, but gaming cultures based on pre-Islamic cultures would have no such restrictions and also likely less of a focus on say architecture, calligraphy, cloth and other not depictive forms of art.

As for The Thief of Baghdad, the 1924 movie is in the public domain, as is the novel.
http://www.archive.org/details/ThiefOfBagdad1924
http://www.archive.org/details/thiefofbaghdad00worm
Love the poster art http://www.johncoulthart.com/feuilleton/2010/08/12/the-thief-of-bagdad/

Quote from: Casey777;462470I've since returned History of the Arab Peoples to the library so don't have it handy anymore.

Has that website you've found answered this enough? My understanding is it's not terribly different than Muhammad on (at the tribal level of course).

I picture it very much like the John Milius film The Wind & the Lion, though without the leader having religious ranking (or at least certainly not Islamic). By persuasion, ties, skill, sword and shrewdness. And the luck of the (at this time) gods. Certainly patriarchal and IIRC moreso than under Islam. In general Islam provides codified rules and structure over the earlier traditions.

One thing to keep in mind, Islamic art tends not to portray the human form, especially in religious contexts, but gaming cultures based on pre-Islamic cultures would have no such restrictions and also likely less of a focus on say architecture, calligraphy, cloth and other not depictive forms of art.

As for The Thief of Baghdad, the 1924 movie is in the public domain, as is the novel.
http://www.archive.org/details/ThiefOfBagdad1924
http://www.archive.org/details/thiefofbaghdad00worm
Love the poster art http://www.johncoulthart.com/feuilleton/2010/08/12/the-thief-of-bagdad/

Thanks for the links to the movie. On my ipod earlier, I found the Thief of Baghdad on youtube. You are right, the movie poster is pretty sweet.

I think the links I found explained it pretty well.

Quote from: Elfdart;462452I just think that instead of statting out every mook like a PC or NPC, you'd save yourself a lot of trouble and have the same results if you either (a) only listed stats that really mattered or (b) just gave a blanket bonus/penalty for mooks to reflect that they are better (or worse) than the typical mook. For example, if you have a bunch of Viking-style raiders and decide that on average they are tougher (or better fighters), rather than figuring up stats for them just give the raiders a bonus to hit points or their attack rolls and be done with it. Because let's face it: if they get wiped out by the PCs or monsters or whatever, it doesn't really matter if the average one has a 14 CON and the typical non-Viking averages a 10-11.

I'm so familiar with Pathfinder that I think it took me about 90 seconds to write up the stats for the nomad soldier. Another reason I write them up is because I've never been comfortable with the idea of mooks. If the characters level up and become strong enough to beat common people easily, that's one thing. As first level characters, there are no mooks, just other people.

QuoteBy the way 390,000 square miles with 3 people to a square mile adds up to 1,170,000. Divide by 10 for the number of able-bodied males, or by 20 for man-at-arms quality. Divide by 100 for the number of men who are 1st level or higher.

Oh yeah, I just typed it in wrong.

I'm not sure I agree with your numbers for numbers of fighting men or first level fighters, though I see where you are getting them. The only soldiers I treat as less than level 1 fighters in my games are untrained conscripts, city folk, and slaves. Farmer / Hoplites, Nomad / Calvary and Professional Enlisted men are all level 1 fighters. One in ten are level 2 and one in 100 are level 3. That continues up to level 5, beyond which only special, named npcs are level 6. The game worlds I like to run have a pretty narrow power gap. A group of 4th level PCs can take almost any random group of 30 guys, but there are individuals all over that can fight a PC 1 on 1.

As for other stuff you posted, thanks.

Quote from: Cranewings;462414Elfdart, good call. There is a website I use periodically to come up with the demographics, though I'm not sure it gives a suggestion for deserts.

A little off topic, but is there any chance you want to share your demographics website? I'm always looking for a good resource!

Quote from: Casey777;462242Arabian Nights translations-

Tales of the Caliphate Nights recommends Husain Haddaway's Arabian Nights and Arabian Nights 2 (the latter covers the more familiar stories so is more recommended for starters). Not sure if this is the Penguin book upthread, I got these via library loan one time briefly and they were hardcover and IIRC based on slightly different texts or interpretations than the older norms in English.

No, the Penguin translation - which got a deluxe 3 hardcover set coming up (as mentioned upthread), sold at Amazon UK at quite a reduced price (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0141198273/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=) - is done by Lyons, not Haddawy. If you check volume I of Lyons, page xxii (on GoogleBooks), you'll see he respects Haddaway's work as a translator, but chose to go for a different primary source. So in terms of scholarly respectability, I think Haddawy is a superior choice. But I doubt that matters much for current purposes. It's just that after this review (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-arabian-nights-tales-of-1001-nights-trs-malcolm-c-lyons-1607007.html) I wasn't particularly keen on getting Lyons renditions of genitalia & co.

QuoteIf one were to find fault with Lyons' monumental achievement, it would be in the painstaking plainness of his diction. Like Haddawy, Lyons falls often into linguistic traps that are avoided by the exuberant Mardrus and Mathers. Instead of "cripple" or "lame" (traditional fairy-tale adjectives), Haddawy writes "paraplegic" while Lyons has "semi-paralysed". Lyons also consistently translates the common Arabic zib and kis as "penis" and "vagina". The cumulative effect is clinical, jarringly out of place in the perfumed chambers and ghostly gardens of the Nights.

However, I'll throw in some further reviews (http://www.theomnivore.co.uk/Book/Classification/Fiction/Genre/Classic_Fiction/1527-The_Arabian_Nights_Tales_of_1001_Nights/Default.aspx) for better measure.

By the way, you can watch all the Harryhausen Sinbad movies on YouTube (http://youtu.be/OE6TL9GwxWk).

Quote from: Tipsy;462499A little off topic, but is there any chance you want to share your demographics website? I'm always looking for a good resource!

Here you go sir.

Some of it, the occurrences of different professions is a little silly, but overall I think this article is great.

Quote from: Cranewings;462485I'm so familiar with Pathfinder that I think it took me about 90 seconds to write up the stats for the nomad soldier. Another reason I write them up is because I've never been comfortable with the idea of mooks. If the characters level up and become strong enough to beat common people easily, that's one thing. As first level characters, there are no mooks, just other people.

Well that explains it. I use three classes of low-level fighting men:

Veterans (1st-level fighters: d10 hit points)
Men-at-arms (d8 hit points -trained soldiers with little or no experience)
Schmoes/Mooks (d6 hit points -regular guys who aren't trained -or trained well, including most bandits)

QuoteOh yeah, I just typed it in wrong.

No biggie.

Quote from: Cranewings;462547Here you go sir.

Some of it, the occurrences of different professions is a little silly, but overall I think this article is great.

Thanks Cranewings, but the link didn't seem to come through.