Is when people say that the game world should reflect the way that magic is in the rules, with easily available zap spells, or continual light etc. So if a PC can cast a light spell, then according to this way of thinking, it follows that streets should be lit by magical light. Thus ending up with Eberron or a reskinned pseudo-21st century, or just magic being generally boring.

To which I say:

1. Magic might be rare, due to only a few people having the gift, or due to the knowledge or physical resources required being scarce. In my long-running Rolemaster game, magical knowledge was jealously guarded by arcane covens, and if someone managed to steal the scrolls of a another group, and spent years first deciphering it and then learning the spells, their reward would likely be being hunted down like a dog.

2. Setting and atmosphere come first, period. If I want a game with mysterious rare wizards a la the Hobbit, that's how it is, and PC wizards are the exception. The rules have little to do with this.

In practice, it works fine when the GM creates the expectation for his setting. It's only certain types who think that the mechanics are the physics engine for the universe rather than tools to achieve your own vision.

I have nothing more articulate to offer as a comment, other than "word."

I mean, I'm OK with Eberron as its own thing, but as a template, not so much.

QuoteIt's only certain types who think that the mechanics are the physics engine for the universe rather than tools to achieve your own vision.

Hey, now, The Gaming Den sometimes sort of okay.

How is this a shibboleth?

I think that prances hand in hand with the expectation that everything in the rulebook should be readily available... 'Shop Magemart!' But somehow still look 'ye olde' (only cleaner and more PC)... and that's where my disbelief suspensors start getting a rash.
A lot of players seem to want magic to be readily available and user-friendly... but still be surrounded by a ren-faire level setup.

If you choose to play with rare/dangerous magic and vengeful covens... then yeah, the standard quasi-historical tropes don't seem so out of place... but fill the air with dragons and flying wizards and bazaars full of functional magic gewgaws and I expect to see  some changes.
I don't know Eberron but I usually think Buck Rogers when I think what I'd want a high magic fantasy setting to look like.
Though there is that more subtle version where magic infuses everything and everyone but is not quite so easily put to overt industrial/combat uses... kinda like LotR felt to me.

Quote from: Mistwell;718475How is this a shibboleth?

Think he's using the "widely held belief that might be untrue" definition rather then the "way you pronounce the word means you're not one of us" definition.

Of course he could mean both, in that the widely held belief that "rules as physics engine" is used to define OSR or whoever he's beefin' with and he thinks that widely held belief isn't true.

The problem with that approach, however, is that having "rules as physics engine" doesn't mean what he thinks it means.  It means rules (only) as physics engine, ie. a method of task resolution, not conflict resolution, or any other narrative horsecrap.

If magic is rare and PC's are the exception then that is the setting, and the physics of magic operate under those rules.

If, however, the PCs are not an exception, just normal people, and a guy who has spent his whole life being a warrior decides to go away for two weeks and comes back a first level magic-user, then yeah, that is saying something about your world, and a player who isn't a first-grader might have some assumptions about the system he wants to explore.

It sounds like "achieve your own vision" is code for "not caring about world or setting consistency".  So, man up and own that shit, brother, instead of making it seem like your own preference is actually a problem with someone else that you decide to classify improperly by using a cool word.

How are shibboleths related to shoggoths?

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;718465Hey, now, The Gaming Den sometimes sort of okay.

I know this was a joke in part, but just because...

"Rules as Physics Engine" isn't The Gaming Den.

The Gaming Den is "Let's take a highly crunchy and rules-driven form of D&D (which, like all D&D, is meant to be played with a GM as ultimate rules authority), lets toss out all GM control and assume "RAW Uber Alles" then decide to, in a complete vacuum, circle-jerk for years about how the rules fall apart under every possible white-room scenario that would never happen if someone with three brain cells was behind the GM screen."

Let's put down the Bizarro Gaming Dictionary you got for Christmas folks, it was meant as a joke.

Quote from: jeff37923;718481How are shibboleths related to shoggoths?

Shibboleths can't do the 7th dimensional Dental Fricative-splosives in "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."

That's how the Shoggoths tell them apart.

As for the OP: Uh huh...

Game Designers Anonymous:

QuoteHello, I've made a game where you can start with a character that can routinely toss cars through the air, regenerate almost any damage, can charm people to do your bidding and can kill a full room of people without much difficulty.

Why aren't you playing it as deep emotional drama as I have envisioned?

QuoteHello. I've written a game where in every official module you routinely find at least one or two spellcasters in every gods - forsaken village, yet the whole world is still Ye Olde Medieval Times, except everyone acts as 21st century Americans.

Poison aside - I'd say that if you want for magic to remain powerful and mystical, it should be reflected as such in both the rules and setting. Because if magic's supposed to be mystical, yet I meet a wizard in every tavern, I'd start to wonder why magic hasn't changed the world's medieval outlook.

Nailed it as usual Rince.

Quote from: Rincewind1;718484I'd say that if you want for magic to remain powerful and mystical, it should be reflected as such in both the rules and setting. Because if magic's supposed to be mystical, yet I meet a wizard in every tavern, I'd start to wonder why magic hasn't changed the world's medieval outlook.

I believe the setting where that does happen is called Eberron

From what I've seen of the spiel, it's usually people coming either from 3E experience (in which I gather magic really is so common) or from no real D&D experience at all. At any rate, it's not likely to come from experience in a proper old-style campaign.

One thing I wonder in some cases, is: If players are unwilling to do certain things, why should NPCs be so much different? The old D&D books came from a lot of actual experience in Blackmoor, Greyhawk and (later) other campaigns. They did, I understand, reflect what had arisen in play -- play in which players had plenty of opportunity to do as they pleased -- as the normal state of affairs, rather than just being smoke blown in an office where someone was engaging in idle and idealistic speculation.

Even low-level magic users have better uses for their time and energy than throwing Continual Light spells onto glass spheres for three coppers each.

Kind of like asking why college professors don't tutor first graders in their arithmetic.

Really, if your attitude isn't "everything is for sale," the question doesn't even make sense.

I think the OP basically nailed it: there's no need to assume that the character-generation rules of the game (up to and including the way players choose characters) is at all representative of the population of the game world.

Although I'm sure people are able to make this mistake all by themselves, and have done so, I think  Gygax may have encouraged it in the original DMG with some population stats which said that for every x-thousand people, there will be such-and-such number of "PC type persons" (folks who qualify for character classes and can gain levels). Also, the prevalence of magic can be inferred from the random encounter tables which may list classed/leveled NPCs--depending on how you interpret the whole random encounter system.