Quote from: Ted;1060479I might be in the minority, but I'm almost exclusively a terra firma gamer, meaning I do not introduce aerial or underwater as the setting except in the most limited of situations.  So my use of Kua-Toans is about as common as Merfolk, Sauhaugin, and yes even Sharks, SHARK. But I also don't use bird people as either antagonists or protagonists.  But you know what, that is going to change.   This thread has motivated me to challenge the players with some underwater action and the attendant challenges.

Oh I'm with you in this camp. But not from overt choice. I'm always luring, teasing, taunting my players that shit my go aquatic at the drop of a hat.

They do a good job of staying clear of large bodies of water.

Are Kuo Toa problematic because they mock the strange, disturbingly palid forms of those from certain remote fishing villages in New England?

Quote from: David Johansen;1060519Are Kuo Toa problematic because they mock the strange, disturbingly palid forms of those from certain remote fishing villages in New England?

I think they're problematic because they're inspired by Lovecraft, who was a bigot.

I've always just used Deep Ones.

Quote from: Ted;1060479I might be in the minority, but I'm almost exclusively a terra firma gamer, meaning I do not introduce aerial or underwater as the setting except in the most limited of situations.  So my use of Kua-Toans is about as common as Merfolk, Sauhaugin, and yes even Sharks, SHARK. But I also don't use bird people as either antagonists or protagonists.  But you know what, that is going to change.   This thread has motivated me to challenge the players with some underwater action and the attendant challenges.

I rarely have underwater adventures, but I do have fucked up amphibians who raid towns and ships and anything that sinks below the water is never seen again.

In one campaign, the PCs decided to set up trebuchets and bombard the underwater lair relentlessly, forcing the Sauhaugin to attack the land where the PCs had been ready for the battle...but the PC way underestimated their foes' numbers. The end result was a Pyrrhic victory as the sea monsters lost their city and most of their warriors, but the town and all their forces were slaughtered. Most of the PCs died too. When resurrected, I gave them a fear of deep water as the sea monster gods had cursed them.

From a gameplay stand-point I've never understood the Kua-Toans.  In the 1e AD&D universe of "fish men" we have had:

Locathah
Sauhagin
Kua-Toa
...and honest-to-Kthanid Deep Ones.

I wonder why Gary made a 3rd Fish Man race...(Deep Ones as a usable AD&D monster didn't come out until Deities & Demigods, and then only for the window that the unabridged book was available, but it's not like you can't find the stats out there).

I'm with Pundit and just call them/use Deep Ones. The surface world isn't overly bothered by them due to their ongoing conflict with the sauhagin (less advanced as a species, but hungrier) and the Namoreans (trident ray-guns and coral submarines), so they're kept plenty busy. They're more likely to operate Innsmouth-style than be some sort of coastal monster.

Love these guys! Who doesn't like cultist fish men wearing diapers. Love them so much I wrote a song about them:

SHRINE OF KUO TOA
(with sincere apologies to The Eagles)


In a dark cavern temple, near where the drow lair

Cold stink of the fishmen,rising up through the air

Up ahead in the distance, I saw a flickering light

My shield grew heavy and my sword was drawn

I had to prep for the fight

There they stood in the doorway

I heard the temple bell

And I was thinking to myself,

' I'm gonna send these fish freaks straight to hell

Then they lit up a huge torch, tried to scare me away

They were croaking down the corridor,

I thought I heard them say...

Welcome to Shrine of Kuo toa

Such an awful place

wonder how you'd taste?

Plenty of loot at the Shrine of Kuo toa

Any type of gear, you can find it here

Thier minds are tortured and twisted driving them all to bad ends

They got a goddess they call Blipdoolpoolp and she's got friends

How they kill on the altar....sweet blood to let

Some kill to remember, some kill to forget


So I called up the chieftain

'please release my guys

He said, 'we haven't had any captives here since CY 609

And still those voices are calling from far away,

Slit your throat in the middle of the night

I can hear them say...

Welcome to Shrine of Kuo toa

Such an awful place

wonder how you'd taste?


They livin' it up at the Shrine of Kuo toa

What a harsh surprise, bring your lucky die

Piercers on the ceiling,

The yellow mold so nice

And they  said 'we are all just worshippers here, of our own device'

And in the chief whip's chambers,

They melee'd as they wished

They slash it with their vorpal blades

But they just can't kill the fish


Last thing I remember, I was

Running for the door

I had to find the passage back

To the place I was before

'Ho-there' said the fish man,(6)

We are hatched here to believe

You can worship any time you like

But you can never leave!

Quote from: Gorilla_Zod;1061135I'm with Pundit and just call them/use Deep Ones. The surface world isn't overly bothered by them due to their ongoing conflict with the sauhagin (less advanced as a species, but hungrier) and the Namoreans (trident ray-guns and coral submarines), so they're kept plenty busy. They're more likely to operate Innsmouth-style than be some sort of coastal monster.

Well, in Lion & Dragon I just call them "fish men", to avoid introducing overtly Lovecraftian terminology into a Medieval-Authentic setting.