Quote from: J Arcane;3998231. I have an AK-101 in the corner here that disagrees strongly with your "inaccurate" claim.  Even with my shitty shooting and bad eyes I can pretty much hit what I'm pointing at in any practical engagement range, and beyond if I had a good optic for it.  It's not any less accurate than any other standard assault rifle.  The effective range of my rifle is around 500m, though that's in 5.56.  The classic AK will do around 400m.

2. 30 rounds, not 32.

3.  4 MAGS isn't even a day at the range.  Standard load out for a US Army infantryman to my recollection is generally around 270 rounds, or 9 magazines.  Again though, that's 5.56, 7.62 will be heavier, so you might or might not lighten that load a bit.  I don't know what standard ammo carry for a Russian soldier when the -47 was contemporary.  Nowadays they use 5.45mm AK-74s, which has about the same weight as 5.56, so they probably carry around the same.

1. Thanks for the correction.

2. Ditto.

3. Never so much as heard a firefight (TV not included), so...

AK-47: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Autofire (5 shots; Semi and full auto; +1/2) (60 Active Points); OAF Unbreakable (You pretty much have to crush the thing) (-1), Beam (Small projectiles; -1/4), 9 clips of 30 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (Store, base, etc.); Bullets; +1/2)

Took off the inaccurate, had to hand-edit down to 9 clips because the math on multiple clips kept resetting the number to 16. Anything else it does other than fire bullets (like be useful as a crude club) is covered by "special effect", in this case, the SFX of being an AK-47.

Quote from: Benoist;399825Now we can have all sorts of discussion about what was really intended by using this particular phrasing, and how such an intent would have carried through the ages up to today's modern background, with weapon capabilities, crimes, unregistered weapons, etc, but the gist of Vellorian's argument isn't laughable to me, despite my disagreement vis a vis his views on the topic.

Oh, no, absolutely.  I fully endorse and support the Second Amendment.  But the idea that one lone hero and his rag-tag band of renegades will be able to hold out against the tide of war with their scrappy attitudes and Wal-Mart pistols is only part of the ridiculous humour in that post.  The other part is that some kind of 'take-over' is in any way immanent.  Taken as a whole, and you have two great tastes that taste hilarious together.  

I mean, it's not like the government really has to come in guns blazing to take someone down, you know?  Wipe someone's social security number for a month or two and let the bureaucracy take its course.  I mean, to take this idea that guns will keep you safe from the government is so quaint, it is hard to comprehend that people still believe in it.

Which brings me back around to Zach's request:  Cyberpunk games are predicated on the idea that society is almost completely interconnected through databases and computer information.  Has anyone really thought through the implications of going 'off the grid' in such an environment?  When is the last time you were in a store that still accepts paper checks?  And I will guarantee that if you attempt to purchase just about anything worth over a thousand dollars or so with cash, there are about a dozen federal agencies that get alerted.  So, if you don't have a credit card (off the grid), how do you get expensive stuff like cyber-limbs and fancy cars?  Obviously, the black market isn't like Sears, with a lifetime warranty and no-hassle return policies.  But players pretty much assume that FN-FAL you got from the local fixer is as good as getting it from the factory.

Also, you may wish to note, that if this is a military trained individual we're talking about here (this is HERO so I'm assuming this is something personalized to a particular character), the default burst is going to be 3.  3 rounds is the most you can squeeze off with most full-auto weapons before accuracy goes to shit.  The last 2 rounds in your 5 round burst are going to be almost guaranteed misses at range.  

More than that is for suppression purposes, which in a proper fire team is the job of the LMG gunner, armed with an RPK or M249, and even he's going to be firing in controlled bursts, not just letting loose on the trigger.  The purpose here is to cover an area and make the enemy either stay down, stay where they are, or stay out of the zone of fire.  

Now a lighter arm like an SMG, maybe you can get away with a couple more shots, or if you're at very close range.  But mostly the standard, and what a trained guy is going for, is going to be 3.

Now, if he's not so trained, well that's another story.  He may very well just "spray and pray".  And you'd want to model that as some kind of area effect with a chance of hitting anything in it, but he probably isn't going to hit with all the rounds in that burst.  

It's up to the character and the situation, in other words.

Quote from: J Arcane;399832Also, you may wish to note, that if this is a military trained individual we're talking about here (this is HERO so I'm assuming this is something personalized to a particular character), the default burst is going to be 3.  3 rounds is the most you can squeeze off with most full-auto weapons before accuracy goes to shit.  The last 2 rounds in your 5 round burst are going to be almost guaranteed misses.  

More than that is for suppression purposes, which in a proper fire team is the job of the LMG gunner, armed with an RPK or M249, and even he's going to be firing in controlled bursts, not just letting loose on the trigger.  The purpose here is to cover an area and make the enemy either stay down, stay where they are, or stay out of the zone of fire.  

Now a lighter arm like an SMG, maybe you can get away with a couple more shots, or if you're at very close range.  But mostly the standard, and what a trained guy is going for, is going to be 3.

Now, if he's not so trained, well that's another story.  He may very well just "spray and pray".  And you'd want to model that as some kind of area effect with a chance of hitting anything in it, but he probably isn't going to hit with all the rounds in that burst.  

It's up to the character and the situation, in other words.

Aware of that much. I bumped it up to 5 because you don't have to use all of them. I could fiddle it more with -1 OCV per extra shot over 3, but it really isn't worth it, because it would still be an extra +1/4 and I'd just call that SFX. Hence, semi and full auto - The comment is intended to convey that, but might need a bit more work.

Quote from: J Arcane;399832Also, you may wish to note, that if this is a military trained individual we're talking about here (this is HERO so I'm assuming this is something personalized to a particular character), the default burst is going to be 3.  3 rounds is the most you can squeeze off with most full-auto weapons before accuracy goes to shit.  The last 2 rounds in your 5 round burst are going to be almost guaranteed misses.  

More than that is for suppression purposes, which in a proper fire team is the job of the LMG gunner, armed with an RPK or M249, and even he's going to be firing in controlled bursts, not just letting loose on the trigger.  The purpose here is to cover an area and make the enemy either stay down, stay where they are, or stay out of the zone of fire.  

Now a lighter arm like an SMG, maybe you can get away with a couple more shots, or if you're at very close range.  But mostly the standard, and what a trained guy is going for, is going to be 3.

Now, if he's not so trained, well that's another story.  He may very well just "spray and pray".  And you'd want to model that as some kind of area effect with a chance of hitting anything in it, but he probably isn't going to hit with all the rounds in that burst.  

It's up to the character and the situation, in other words.

What about the popular sci-fi standbys, the needler and gyrojet weapons?  Surely they won't have the recoil problems that cause a burst to become unmanageable?  Or perhaps some kind of advanced anti-recoil device or cyberlimb/power armour?  Would that throw game balance too far off, in your opinion?  Obviously, if you remove the penalties that just about every game has for full-auto burst fire, then no one will use anything else.  Aside from ammo considerations, can you think of any other repercussions that would limit full-auto fire if the cumulative accuracy penalties of a burst were eliminated?

Quote from: StormBringer;399834What about the popular sci-fi standbys, the needler and gyrojet weapons?  Surely they won't have the recoil problems that cause a burst to become unmanageable?  Or perhaps some kind of advanced anti-recoil device or cyberlimb/power armour?  Would that throw game balance too far off, in your opinion?  Obviously, if you remove the penalties that just about every game has for full-auto burst fire, then no one will use anything else.  Aside from ammo considerations, can you think of any other repercussions that would limit full-auto fire if the cumulative accuracy penalties of a burst were eliminated?

Well, if you have a truly recoil-less weapon, certainly your limitations on accuracy are going to be dramatically reduced.  You may still have ammo considerations at hand though.  Depends on the capacity of the weapon.

A modern assault rifle only carries 30 rounds.  Battle rifles like the M14 and the FAL only carry 20.  That many rounds on full auto goes by REALLY fast.  Here's an AK-47 on full auto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0mNJwRbS_o  Full mag dump takes like 3 seconds.

So if your capacity is still relatively small, it may be prudent to conserve ammo nonetheless.  It all depends on the weapon, and since it's fictional SF, that could be bloody anything.  

Quote from: StormBringer;399834What about the popular sci-fi standbys, the needler and gyrojet weapons?  Surely they won't have the recoil problems that cause a burst to become unmanageable?  Or perhaps some kind of advanced anti-recoil device or cyberlimb/power armour?  Would that throw game balance too far off, in your opinion?  Obviously, if you remove the penalties that just about every game has for full-auto burst fire, then no one will use anything else.  Aside from ammo considerations, can you think of any other repercussions that would limit full-auto fire if the cumulative accuracy penalties of a burst were eliminated?

 You and I think alike in this area. In game terms I would say that a reliable, military grade laser rifle ought to be easy to operate because it has zero recoil and produces no smoke to get in the firer's eyes, etc. I'd say if you can fire a regular rifle or assault rifle then a laser weapon ought to be easier for you to fire as aiming is similar, except you don't need to allow for drop, windage, etc and don't have to fight recoil.

I'd be inclined to let anyone with regular gun skills use a laser type weapon, possibly at a bonus after they'd gotten used to no recoil, at their normal firearm skill equivalent, but mainly just for firing. if it malfs or needs service, they'd be hosed, but even reloading it ought to be easy if it's a military-grade and accepted weapon.

 In fact using advanced weapons might be easier than using modern ones. Imagine the difference between using a flintlock and using an m-16. It's be easier for a guy who knew how to use a flintlock to learn to use an m-16 than for a guy trained on an m-16 to learn to use a flintlock.

Speaking of gyrojets,there is a rumor that they're inaccurate and that's false. In the 60's ONE batch of gj ammo had a defect in one of the stabilizer vents that threw it off. One batch. The rest worked quite effectively, produced better ballistics and hit harder than regular ammo, all while making less noise too. (Sounded like a can of beer overflowing, one guy said.)

I can't help wondering what modern micro manufacturing tech could do with gyro ammo...

Quote from: J Arcane;399835Well, if you have a truly recoil-less weapon, certainly your limitations on accuracy are going to be dramatically reduced.  You may still have ammo considerations at hand though.  Depends on the capacity of the weapon.

A modern assault rifle only carries 30 rounds.  Battle rifles like the M14 and the FAL only carry 20.  That many rounds on full auto goes by REALLY fast.  Here's an AK-47 on full auto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0mNJwRbS_o  Full mag dump takes like 3 seconds.

So if your capacity is still relatively small, it may be prudent to conserve ammo nonetheless.  It all depends on the weapon, and since it's fictional SF, that could be bloody anything.  

Case in point.  

Speaking of advanced weapons let's pull a combo: A gauss accelerator rifle that fires gyrojet rounds.

Wow, talk about "If you can see it you can hit it"...

Quote from: Cylonophile;399839I can't help wondering what modern micro manufacturing tech could do with gyro ammo...

How about future micro manufacturing tech?  

Good points all around, though, and they do line up with my own thoughts pretty well.

This thread has veered too far into political territory for the main RPG forum.  I've got nothing against ongoing discussion of the subjects in this thread that don't have to do with politics/gun-control etc and that are directly related to RPGs.  If people want to keep going with that, start a new thread.  But please don't use threads like this to promote political positions on either end of the spectrum regarding issues around guns and other related subjects.

I'm closing this thread.  Again, feel free to start a new one that's just about RPG-related discussion.

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