Well, as I shared a few days ago, I now have the 4e books. And I feel weird about it. I'm not really sure what I was expecting. Take note, that I haven't read through all the books. I tend to repeatedly skim through something before reading it front to back.

For me, it's nearly impossible to casually skim through these books. If I do that, I get lost. There are probably hundreds of powers in the Player's Handbok, yet there's no index listing the powers. The one-page index is practically useless, especially for a 300-plus page book meant to be referred to in play.

Then there's the layout. Something about the layout and graphic design causes my brain to rebel, and I go into ADD mode.

I tried a theoretical exercise. I put the Warhammer 2e cover next to the D&D 4e covers, and I noticed that my eyes kept sliding to the Warhammer cover every time. When I read the interior of the Warhammer book, the layout and organization made it an easy and relaxing read. On the other hand, reading the 4e books feels like work.

I'm not talking about rules here. I'm talking about presentation, and the presentation of information in the 4e books causes my brain to shut down. One thing I'll admit though. The 4e art is great. That art is light years better than what they had in 3e.

It will likely take me a long time to read these books....that is, if I ever get around to it. That's why I think I'll refrain from picking sides on any "Edition Wars" threads for the foreseeable future. The organization of the books throws me off so badly, that I can't really comment on the game unless I read and memorize every little detail in the game.

These books are not properly designed for casual reference. I think this is the type of game that will widely be taught by other people, rather than from reading the books themselves.

I wish WoTC had given Green Ronin/Black Industries a call for 4e. Oh, well.

MY advice is to actually read it...because you are obviously taking nothing away from your skimming.

This is one of the friendliest, easiest to comprehend, and best explained versions of D&D (perhaps only the Mentzer Basic is better...but that almost holds your hand too much).

Seriously, it is a good read, just start at the very beginning of the Players Handbook.

As far as powers, just skip them (and skill descriptions) until the second read of the PH, as they are sort of dry if you just read them one after another...but trust me, when you make your first character, you will be more than happy to read through the ones for the class you choose.

Comparing the game to another is just silly.  If you were interested enough in 4E to pick it up, give it a read and a chance before making a decision based on nothing.

I read the PH on my lunch breaks and breaks at work (roughly an hour when combined).  By the end of the week I had finished the PH and had a very good working knowledge of the entire system.

Don't let all the pros and cons people are spouting on the internet sway you one way or another.  Just read the book and then you can make your own decision on how good or bad it is.

Just for the record, I had personally decided the game just wasn't going to be for me (for many reasons based on what people were saying on the internet).  I decided to pick up the PH after a friend shoed me his and I saw how large the font was, and how friendly choice passages read.  We switched to 4E that week.  IMHO 4E is the best version of the game since Moldvay/Cook B/X D&D and it brings back that feel and tone of the game, but with a very different rule system.

I can only assume that this thread was posted for the express purpose of people either giving you motivation to read it, or justification NOT to read it.  But, I'll tell you this, many of the people who DON'T want you to read it are simply telling you that because they don't like it in some way, and want to spread their opinion to you.  Those that are telling you to read it want you to make a decision based on your own opinion...not someone else's.  I mean, in the end, who else really matters?

When it comes to the internet, the only opinion you can trust is your own...so make it an educated one!

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;222341These books are not properly designed for casual reference. I think this is the type of game that will widely be taught by other people, rather than from reading the books themselves.(

Oh...as a side note, this is totally wrong.  If you are simply flipping throught he book it might seem like that, but once you've read it you will see that it is actually a very good design, layout, and very well orginized.

Like I said, almost anyone could learn the game from reading these books...much easier and newbie freindly than most RPGs onthe market these days.  So an old hat like you should have no probelm.  I know that my group had no problem playing our first session after everyone had the books for 1 week, and nobody read the PH more than once.

::munches popcorn::

Well, Grubs...you're right, of course. And I'll read it, but I'll take my sweet-ass time doing it! I don't know what I was looking for in this thread. Sympathy? Understanding? Or maybe I was just venting.

Anyway, I'll read through the books at a leisurely pace, and try not to worry about internalizing all the rules overnight.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;222354Well, Grubs...you're right, of course. And I'll read it, but I'll take my sweet-ass time doing it! I don't know what I was looking for in this thread. Sympathy? Understanding? Or maybe I was just venting.

Anyway, I'll read through the books at a leisurely pace, and try not to worry about internalizing all the rules overnight.

It might not be your cup of tea to do so, but I actually suggest starting right from the introduction and reading the whole thing.  Sure, you know a lot of that stuff, but I was suprised how well it built my excitement and how well it set the tone and mood for reading the rest of the rules like a 12 year old cracking open the basic D&D boxed set for the first time.

It hurts my brain too.



Seriously.  This is the first edition of D&D to ever come out that I didn't immediately sit down and roll up a character and run it through a combat.  I just can't look at this phb without my eyes glazing over.  I've been playing with pregens only.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;222354Well, Grubs...you're right, of course. And I'll read it, but I'll take my sweet-ass time doing it! I don't know what I was looking for in this thread. Sympathy? Understanding? Or maybe I was just venting.

Anyway, I'll read through the books at a leisurely pace, and try not to worry about internalizing all the rules overnight.

In regards to lumping all the powers together, that was pre-saged in 3.x, and it drove me nuts.  All the spells were in alphabetical order.  Which was great, if I was looking for a specific spell, but not so good if I wanted to browse 4th level wizard spells to see what was available.  The index/listing before the spell section somewhat mitigated that, but it only gave a sparse idea of what the spell could do, and didn't often include any limitations that might be present.  And you still had to flip to the spell listing.  

As I recall, 4e at least has them listed by level, so that makes it easier to figure out what is available at your shiny new level.

Something that I noticed was the printing. The text is dark (naturally) but the paper seems to be glaringly white in a way that made my eyes water after an hour or so. Has anyone else had that problem or am I just a mutant?

Quote from: mhensley;222361Seriously.  This is the first edition of D&D to ever come out that I didn't immediately sit down and roll up a character and run it through a combat.  I just can't look at this phb without my eyes glazing over.  I've been playing with pregens only.

Weird. That's the first thing we did when my friend got it

I can see how some of the layout is a bit weird/annoying. Oh and don't get me started on the index page. What I do is write down the page number next to whatever entry I make on the character sheet... I got into the habit of doing that after my first encounter with Exalted 1st edition... things in that book are all over the place.

I REALLY appreciate the powers being arranged by class and level. Though I admit that, much like spells in previous editions, I have not read them all in detail. The first time through I skipped most of the section and just perused them. Kinda like Grubman suggests.

Everything else reads pretty darn good to me.

I like the cleaner pages and more concise verbiage.

I appreciate the offset chapter markers at the side of the pages, I just wish they were on the back of the pages as well as the front.

I like the way chapters start off with a page plus of art. The 3.5 books do that and they are pushed to eleven in the 4e books, using great art.

I started by skipping around in it because I'd read the KotS quick start rules first. I wish WotC would post a pdf of them now that the core is out. I'd suggest starting with that if you can.


The D&D Experience Quick Start Rules care of Zach. I forgot that I read those as well.

Quote from: mhensley;222361Seriously.  This is the first edition of D&D to ever come out that I didn't immediately sit down and roll up a character and run it through a combat.  I just can't look at this phb without my eyes glazing over.  I've been playing with pregens only.

Rather than write it again:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=400638

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;222341For me, it's nearly impossible to casually skim through these books. If I do that, I get lost. There are probably hundreds of powers in the Player's Handbok, yet there's no index listing the powers. The one-page index is practically useless, especially for a 300-plus page book meant to be referred to in play.

Wow, that's unfortunate.

Spycraft 2.0 gets some guff because it's meant to be used more than read. But at least it has an index that lists every single class ability in the book.

I can understand it not being a good casual read, but not being well organized as a reference--and particularly, having a suck-ass index--is not a good thing.

Quote from: jeff37923;222371Has anyone else had that problem or am I just a mutant?

Is this a conditional, or just a standard boolean?

I had a character (a Dwarf Fighter) ready to go ten minutes after cracking the new PHB for the first time and so far have had no problems finding what I need in the index while running.

Allen