Quote from: macd21;226681The tags on the pages are certainly helpful, but they aren't enough. They are an aid, but aren't as good as a proper, uncluttered layout would be.

You know what...whatever:brood:.

Maybe the next edition will have a computer chip like those music cards that tells you exactly what is on every page as you turn it. I can't see how they could make it any more simple other than that.

You know what, guys? Don't worry about it. It's just me. My heart just isn't into playing 4e right now. Maybe I'll change my mind in a few months. To be honest, I haven't been real down with 3e either lately, even though I've been DMing it. My mental state might be influenced by the fact that I broke up with my girlfriend, had to de-spammerize my ailing computer, recover from the dumbest injury possible, and try to play mediator with my parents, so I've just been very stressed lately, and not in the mood to pore over 300-page tomes. On top of that, I've agonized over my impending visit to Seattle this August, since I'm afraid to fly.

That said, the layout of the 4e books still throws me off, and I get bored whenever I pick up the books. I don't understand it. In any case, I'll play 4e again. Eventually. But it's not at the front of my list of things to do right now.

Actually, now that I think of it, my kid brother invited me to play 4e with him and his crew when I go visit him in August. We'll see how that goes. Maybe I can read the books on the plane...

Don't feel bad. My experience is that not only is the layout annoying, but it reads like it was written for 8 year olds. Reading through the PHB and the DMG is an insult to my intelligence. Every class is so disgustingly balanced that the game is actually uninteresting. I won't be playing it and I actually regret the money I spent on the core books. I rate 4E as an epic fail.

Quote from: Andvari;226709Don't feel bad. My experience is that not only is the layout annoying, but it reads like it was written for 8 year olds. Reading through the PHB and the DMG is an insult to my intelligence. Every class is so disgustingly balanced that the game is actually uninteresting. I won't be playing it and I actually regret the money I spent on the core books. I rate 4E as an epic fail.

I rarely hear people who are above average intelligence say “this is an insult to my intelligence”, so we’ll all take that for what it’s worth.

You know, I’m not a D&D fanboy or 100% pro-4E D&D (although I can see it’s merits)…but the anti-D&D arguments in this thread have been so pathetic that I can’t help but defend the game.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;226701Actually, now that I think of it, my kid brother invited me to play 4e with him and his crew when I go visit him in August. We'll see how that goes.

You know what I say...Fuck all your rules or layout problems and have a good time playing a game with your brother.  That's why RPGs were created, to have a good social activity you can enjoy with like-minded people.

Quote from: Andvari;226709Don't feel bad. My experience is that not only is the layout annoying, but it reads like it was written for 8 year olds. Reading through the PHB and the DMG is an insult to my intelligence. Every class is so disgustingly balanced that the game is actually uninteresting. I won't be playing it and I actually regret the money I spent on the core books. I rate 4E as an epic fail.

I'll buy em if you don't want them and the price is right. Seriously, pm me.

Quote from: dar;226714I'll buy em if you don't want them and the price is right. Seriously, pm me.

I plan to keep them - right next to my copies of Synnibar, Sheoloth: City of the Drow, and Gamma World D20.

Quote from: Andvari;226709Don't feel bad. My experience is that not only is the layout annoying, but it reads like it was written for 8 year olds.

See, that was one of the things I really liked about the books.   I could actually sense some enthusiasm from the authors, whereas 3E always felt overly mechanical.  The tone of 4E reminds me very much of red box D&D from the 80s, which is a huge plus for me.

Pete

Quote from: macd21;226681The tags on the pages are certainly helpful, but they aren't enough. They are an aid, but aren't as good as a proper, uncluttered layout would be.

:confused:

The pages tell you the page number, the chapter number, the chapter title, and the subheading title and that still isn't fucking enough for you to figure out where to find something in the book (failing the table of contents, the section headings, and the index)?  Exactly how much easier do they need to make it for you?  

And it's not Uncluttered?  Seriously?

Only two columns of text.  White background.  Fairly sparse use of art.  Almost no charts or tables. Everything broken up into similar blocks of explanation. Sidebars with a different highlight to summarize everything.

How the fuck is that cluttered?  Please point me to any medium to heavy crunch RPG where the book is less cluttered than the 4e books because I'd love to see that.

Like Grubman, I'm no 4e superfan and I think it has serious flaws.  But to call the layout cluttered and difficult to use is patently ridiculous.

Quote from: Andvari;226709Don't feel bad. My experience is that not only is the layout annoying, but it reads like it was written for 8 year olds. Reading through the PHB and the DMG is an insult to my intelligence. Every class is so disgustingly balanced that the game is actually uninteresting. I won't be playing it and I actually regret the money I spent on the core books. I rate 4E as an epic fail.

And here we have an even dumber comment.  So far beyond dumb, in fact, that the light from stupid takes 100 years to reach the comment.  

Your complaint is that the books are too easy to read?  Seriously?

MY GOD, THOSE FUCKING BASTARDS!!!  How dare they not make the books more elitist and inacessible!!!

Quote from: grubman;226712You know, I'm not a D&D fanboy or 100% pro-4E D&D (although I can see it's merits)...but the anti-D&D arguments in this thread have been so pathetic that I can't help but defend the game.

Yes. Clearly out complaints couldn't possibly stem from anything but a hatred for 4ed. Its not possible that we simply dislike the layout. We must be lying, or our opinions must be biased due to an irrational dislike of the game.

I'm going to try to make this clear: I like 4ed. But I hate the books. Maybe its just a matter of taste, but the layout choices, IMO, suck. Maybe I'm being too harsh on them because I expect more from the biggest publisher in the industry, but the fact is that I find the books to be a pain in the ass to reference.

Quote from: macd21;226752Yes. Clearly out complaints couldn't possibly stem from anything but a hatred for 4ed. Its not possible that we simply dislike the layout. We must be lying, or our opinions must be biased due to an irrational dislike of the game.

I'm going to try to make this clear: I like 4ed. But I hate the books. Maybe its just a matter of taste, but the layout choices, IMO, suck. Maybe I'm being too harsh on them because I expect more from the biggest publisher in the industry, but the fact is that I find the books to be a pain in the ass to reference.

You're right, and I was a bit aggressive.  You are certainly allowed your opinion.  I just found it such a mind-bogglingly unbelievable opinion that it actually irritated me to read it.  But, I should have just shrugged it off as a difference of pinion instead of being insulting.

I honestly can't see your point of view or comprehend your arguments, but, I accept that you are sincere in your stance and respect your opinion on the subject.