The Wargaming Thread

[Tod13]

Price is relative. A decent starting army in Warhammer Fantasy circa 8th edition would set one back $300-500, and thats before paints and supplies.

Yes, but a couple people referred to Bolt Action as being cheap or reasonable. So I was wondering what they considered reasonable.

[Tristram Evans]

a Bolt Action starter set runs at 70 -80 GBP msrp (roughly $85 to $100). As I dont play, I'm not sure how playable their starters are. Most games require quite a bit in addition to the starter to hit what the game considers a standard tournament army. So, say about $200 maybe  to get into it? Thats decent for a 28mm wargame. For 15mm it would be maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of that cost.

[David Johansen]

I guess it depends on what you consider a big game or reasonable.  If you use soft plastic 1/72 figures you can cut the cost by around 1/4.  If you use Wargames Factory's figures and cheap 1/48 tank kits you can cut it by around 1/2.  I'm not fond of 15mm for games where you're moving individual 15mm figures around but 15mm runs around $1 / figure depending what you get, with the exception of The Plastic Soldier Company which has great sets for low prices.  One nice thing is that the infantry are true scale to the armor so they actually have riders for the halftracks that fit in the seats. PSC also has some dirt cheap Russians in 28mm.  They're just scaled up versions of the 15mm figures.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Okay, as an old time historical miniatures grognard the idea of "non reusable" armies boggles my mind.  20 dwarfs are 20 dwarfs, 20 heavy horse are 20 heavy horse. A Tiger I Ausf E is a Tiger I Ausf E.

Or do people just not play a whole range of stuff any more?

[David Johansen]

I think it goes to the scale creep in the name of exclusion issue that permeates the hobby these days.  Personally I'm always telling people that I will use the minis for whatever I want because minis don't have to be game specific.  I mostly get stupefied, slack jawed stares in return.  Five years in and so little progress

[Tristram Evans]

I think it goes to the scale creep in the name of exclusion issue that permeates the hobby these days.  Personally I'm always telling people that I will use the minis for whatever I want because minis don't have to be game specific.  I mostly get stupefied, slack jawed stares in return.  Five years in and so little progress

This is why I exclusively play with my gaming group, rather than strangers at a store.

We use the models we want, and everybody only plays with painted armies.

[Tod13]

I think it goes to the scale creep in the name of exclusion issue that permeates the hobby these days.  Personally I'm always telling people that I will use the minis for whatever I want because minis don't have to be game specific.  I mostly get stupefied, slack jawed stares in return.  Five years in and so little progress

Okay, as an old time historical miniatures grognard the idea of "non reusable" armies boggles my mind.  20 dwarfs are 20 dwarfs, 20 heavy horse are 20 heavy horse. A Tiger I Ausf E is a Tiger I Ausf E.

Or do people just not play a whole range of stuff any more?

This is why I exclusively play with my gaming group, rather than strangers at a store.

We use the models we want, and everybody only plays with painted armies.

I'm not sure where I saw anyone say anything about any of that--there's no quote in Gronan's post, so I don't know to which post it is responding.

We were comparing costs from different companies, so I could find out what other people thought was "normal"--not saying anything about having to use a particular companies' minis.

[David Johansen]

Painted armies are nice and not that hard to achieve.  Pick a neutral base color, spray paint it on.  Pick out, boots, weapons, and flesh in that order, dip, spray or brush on dull coat.  Is it art?  No but it's achievable and will pass.  Beginners shouldn't be expected to produce professional results but at least assemble and make an attempt.  Avoid the appearance of ugliness and thus the colors pink, purple, yellow, and orange.  Choose dull tones not bright ones.  Use a tanned flesh tone, it almost always looks better.  Don't be afraid to overlap colors or slop, just organize the sequence to cover the mistakes.  Nothing looks worse than white gaps between details.  If the paint won't flow out of the brush as you paint it's too thick.  Thin it a little and try again.  The first model will look like crap no mater what but that's okay, you keep the model and measure future models against it to measure your progress.  You can use Testors Enamels and get good results, but expect to spend a lot more time painting.  You can't use ceramic paints, they're just not right for the job so stay away from them.  Cheap dollar store paints and craft store paints are okay to try out but they'll never give you great results.  They're too gloppy and the pigments aren't ground fine enough.

Scenery doesn't need to be expensive.  As it happens the inside of most cereal and cracker boxes is brown, just the right color for drab wooden buildings.  It's really easy to build houses.  They're just boxes.  If you want a more complex house, add more boxes.  A green piece of cloth can be as simple as a cheap microfiber bed sheet.  You can pile books under it to make hills or build triangular stacking units from more cereal boxes.  Blue generic cereal boxes are a great source of rivers and streams.  Really I should write up a full article on budget scenery.

[arminius]

As someone who got into wargaming with Avalon Hill & SPI games, the interest in miniatures has always baffled me. They seem nice and all but acquiring, preparing, and storing them seems like an awful lot of trouble for not much gain. Just IMHO and I'd gladly play with someone else's equipment if you know what I mean.

In fairness the minis culture seems to have some interesting innovators (look up Paddy Griffith) but--this may be limited perspective speaking--board games have seemed to me to cover a wider range of topics and scales, with deep thought into problems of historical analysis via simulation. Sometimes though this causes 4e-like flame wars over the intrusion of Euro-like mechanics-first aesthetics into a simulation-first hobby.

As for recommended starter games I would not recommend the old SPI Napoleon at Waterloo--just seems too staid and not a great simulation either. Ogre is great fun and does fine by its imagined subject. The Columbia block games are also good intros. Might be good to start with a topic that interests you and seek recommendations.

[War Rocket Ajax]

Yes, but a couple people referred to Bolt Action as being cheap or reasonable. So I was wondering what they considered reasonable.

I consider $1-1.50 for a grunt to be very reasonable for the platoon scale systems. And there are quite a few different games within that range, including Bolt Action.

For Bolt Action the bigger stuff like heavy weapons and tanks are naturally higher but not outrageous (to me). Patton is 4$. I think Tristram Evan's estimate is probably about right.

[Tristram Evans]

As someone who got into wargaming with Avalon Hill & SPI games, the interest in miniatures has always baffled me. They seem nice and all but acquiring, preparing, and storing them seems like an awful lot of trouble for not much gain. Just IMHO and I'd gladly play with someone else's equipment if you know what I mean.

Its an aesthetic thing for me. Painting is a joy, and the look of a fully painted 3d army on well-modeled table is a visceral thrill for me that card and counter wargames can't provide.

[David Johansen]

Yeah, I'm an artist mainly, if there isn't creative appeal I generally lose interest quickly.

[arminius]

Oh, sure, I get that. Those look great. But to me, preparing minis just seems like a chore combined with frustration. My wife has said she'd like to paint minis if I ever get them so that's one solution (but she's pretty busy these days). On top of that is the need to have a set not only for each era but even the particular nation/formation. I see people saying things like "I have a 54mm Seleucid army, anyone got some Parthians?" I don't want to be "the Seleucid guy". To each his own, though, really, they're beautiful and if you don't mind me touching them, I'll promise to be careful when we mix it up.

The only other thing that bugs me is that outside of skirmish games you usually (?) apparently (?) have 1 figure = some multiple of actual combatants, so the visual scale is off.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

For many people, the painting is a huge part of the fun.  For those who feel otherwise, professional painting services are available.

[Madprofessor]

... But to me, preparing minis just seems like a chore combined with frustration.  

Well, that's just it. If you aren't drawn to the modeling, painting, crafting aspect of the hobby then entering the hobby will likely be frustrating.  You spend more time planning, painting and building your armies than you do playing.

However, I do know lots of casual players who join in on games but allow someone else to do the "work."  There's nothing wrong with this as it gives the modelers people to play with and interact with.  The life of a mini's guy is a bit lonesome.

As far as game play goes - for some - boardgames, no matter how good, can never compare with way the visual and tactile aspects of a minis game inspire the imagination.  In RPG terms, its kind of an immersion thing.

On top of that is the need to have a set not only for each era but even the particular nation/formation. I see people saying things like "I have a 54mm Seleucid army, anyone got some Parthians?" I don't want to be "the Seleucid guy". To each his own, though, really, they're beautiful and if you don't mind me touching them, I'll promise to be careful when we mix it up.

This can be a problem.  I usually will not paint an army unless it is a group project: "hey lets do crusades, I'll paint Saracens, and you can finish your Latins" - kind of thing.  Although, sometimes I will paint a pair of armies because there is some idea that I want to capture and show off.

The only other thing that bugs me is that outside of skirmish games you usually (?) apparently (?) have 1 figure = some multiple of actual combatants, so the visual scale is off.

I know people who are bothered by this.  They often play 6mm games which have the added benefit of being extremely cheap and easy to store.  They don't really float my boat though.