TheRPGSite

So, I like miniatures wargames, I'm okay with hex and counter stuff but I'm more of a craftsman than a tactician so miniatures are my thing.

I've got one heck of a gaming space.  Here's a link to my store's website.  http://www.neutralgroundgames.com

Anyhow I play Flames of War, Kings of War, Warzone, Warpath, Bolt Action, Hordes of the Things, DBA, War of Battle Warry War.  I have played Warhammer  (had 7 armies at one point), Warhammer 40000 (had 2 armies), $tarcorp$, AD&D Battle System, Rules According To Ral.  I like the points of overlap with rpgs like ICE's War Law and Sea Law.

I've got a War of Spanish Secession army assembled but unpainted.  I've got around 100 Wargames Factory Romans and maybe 30 Celts painted.  Deus Vult looks really sweet, I've always wanted to do medieval and I've got an obscure Canadian system I'd like to try.

So anyhow, what's your wargaming look like these days.

I'm also very much about the miniatures. While I've played a few hex and counter, they don't have the greatest amount of appeal for me.

Like many, I started with Warhammer. I've dabbled in 40K, but Fantasy is my main love. Started with 3rd edition, then took a break and got back in with 8th, but found it dissatisfying enough to move backwards to 6th. The Oldhammer community reinvigorated my love of 3rd. I've tried Kings of War, and while there are aspects I like, I ended up finding it a bit dissatisfying overall. i have a 15mm Hordes of the Things army that hasn't seen too much use yet. Recently embarked on a Warmaster binge. Also play Mordheim, Frostgrave, and made small excursions into Knights and Magick, Carnivale, Hell Dorado, 7TV, Celtos, Dragon Rampant, Of Gods and Mortals, In Her Majesty's Name,Song of Blades & Heroes, Otherworld and Ral Partha's Chaos Wars. Played some W40K using the 5150 Star Army rules.

In recent years I've made the plunge into historicals, starting with Black Powder and Hail Caesar, with a Prussian 15mm army and then a 28mm British Celts force and Scottish War of the Roses army. From there I've tried WRG 6th edition, Armati, Impetus, and To The Strongest!   I've read DBMM, but it was a little too fiddly for my tastes, and I've read but not yet gotten a chance to play SAGA, Crusader, Kensei, Vini Vidi Vici, Shock of Impact, and Broken Lances.

Of all the wargames, fantasy or historical, that I've read and played, my absolute favourite set of rules at this point is Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare. Originally published by Saga (not to be confused with the dark ages skirmish gameline), then done in a beautiful revised hardcover edition by The Foundry, the rules are absolutely fantastic. Simple enough to learn, but complex enough to hit my personal sweet spot as far as abstraction and definition. The author was a well-regarded medieval scholar and it shows; the game emphasis and rewards real-world strategies. There was a planned fantasy adaption of the rules before the author's unfortunate passing, but I'm currently working on an adaption of that myself.

I got rid of my miniatures about 10 years ago and kind of regret it.

I go to GaryCon and wallow in historical miniatures wargaming for four days.  TRACTICS, CHAINMAIL, DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP, and CAVALIERS AND ROUNDHEADS are especial favorites.  I hope to get into CLASSIC WARFARE.

There is a group that puts on a miniature wargame con four times a year which is a good place to try stuff.  That's where I discovered I hate DBA on the tabletop as much as I hate the manuscript... I absolutely loathe and despise the "rock paper scissors" aspect.

I also play some WW2 naval stuff when somebody is running it.

Also, it's my personal opinion that modern miniatures rules have gotten longer and more complicated but neither more fun to play nor more realistic in terms of refighting a historical battle.

While I bought Warhammer Mass Combat Roleplay (1e) back around 1982 and my cousin had a copy of Ravening Hordes, I never really got to play it.  The idea of having enough miniatures to build regiments was shocking at the time.  It didn't really offer much as a straight up rpg though I've always liked the Redwake River Valley scenario.  I also had WRG 7th edition and ran a few small test combats with it and FGU's Fire Hack and Run skirmish rules.  Later I had Task Force's Star Fire and Steve Jackson's Car Wars and played them a fair bit.  But I was mostly an RPG guy.

As I graduated and had a little more money and GW was printing color ads in Dragon I got into AD&D Battlesystem 2 which was okay but weak on the army building and units side of things.  I purchased, Ral Partha's Chaos Wars but the scenarios were so large that it was off putting.  Great little system though.  Then I got Warzone, Vor The Maelstrom, Kryomek, anything that came along that wasn't Warhammer really.  Didn't have much luck as they kept dying off and the only place to purchase them was a two hour drive away and busing was expensive.  GW killed their external distribution and their games disappeared from my town for around eight years until a new comic shop owner decided to give it a try.  That's when I finally gave in and got into Warhammer.  Gave away most of my 25mm collection.  At the time Ral Partha had just closed down and it looked like 25mm was gone for good anyhow.  I've really regretted it because 28mm rpg support has never been very good.  Sure there's Reaper, but honestly I've never liked their figures.

Oh well, I'm back to my, fringe games and obscure companies.  It's no way to run a store but I have fun anyhow.

I am also a miniatures guy.  I have perhaps 50 painted armies, mostly ancients and medievals but also quite a bit of fantasy in 15mm and 28mm.  I use a lot of different rules sets and often write my own.  I don't paint much any more as my eyes aren't what they used to be.  In fact, I don't play all that often any more as wargamers are growing scarce.  I don't use miniatures when I play RPGs, preferring theater of the mind, but I often do use miniatures games as a change of pace for mass battles as part of the campaign.

You know, a lot of people I know use 28mm and 25mm figures together.  Just like when we were using 1/87 scale armor, some of the stuff was 1/76 or 1/72 if that's the scale the model was available in.  Yeah, it looks a little odd to have a Honey bigger than a T-34, but at least we had Honeys.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947149Also, it's my personal opinion that modern miniatures rules have gotten longer and more complicated but neither more fun to play nor more realistic in terms of refighting a historical battle.

So, it depends a lot.  Rick Priestly (yes THAT designed Warhammer and Warhammer 40k Rick Priestly) has some very nice, fun, and reasonably light games published by Paul Sawyer's Warlord Games (yes THAT Paul Sawyer who was editor at White Dwarf for many years back when GW was fun) but Hail Caesar, Pike and Shotte, Black Powder, and Bolt Action should be right up your alley.  I didn't list Beyond the Gates of Antares as it's a bit more complex.  Mantic's Kings of War (by GW Alumnus ) is dead simple.  It isn't great for small battles but if you have two hundred figures on the table it's a lot of fun.  Small battles run fast enough you can run a tournament or a campaign in an afternoon but tend to be determined by the first unit lost as being outnumbered is brutal in KoW.  Warpath should be in the same vein for science fiction but Mantic's dropped the ball three times now with that one.

I'm not fond of the cluttered table games like X-wing with all their little gimmicks and gadgets.

There's also lots of small press stuff.  A Song of Blades and Heroes gets great reviews and most of the Osprey games after Fields of Glory get good press.  Fields of Glory is a bit of a throwback to more complex rulesets but it's no WRG7th edition.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947155You know, a lot of people I know use 28mm and 25mm figures together.  Just like when we were using 1/87 scale armor, some of the stuff was 1/76 or 1/72 if that's the scale the model was available in.  Yeah, it looks a little odd to have a Honey bigger than a T-34, but at least we had Honeys.

HERESY!!!

Okay, I admit it, I'm a scale fanatic and I loathe scale creep.  Especially in its "make sure you can't use anyone else's miniatures with our games" mind set.  Yes my love for Mutant Chronicles Warzone is pure hypocrisy but there you go.

I'm an amateur sculptor and caster (with the burns to show for it) and I want to do figure lines to go with my games but I'm really torn between 25mm (which I like better) and 28 (which sells better).  Undoubtedly my business sense won't get the best of me this time either.

Of course we're spoiled for choice these days.

I'd love to get into miniature wargaming, especially historical and modern wargaming.

Any suggestions for a newcomer to the hobby?

I'm interested in finding out more about wargaming too but have no interest in blowing a fortune on miniatures as they're not my thing.

Heard that Memoir 44' and its expansions are a good entry point but that it is 'light' (not that I care). 1775: Rebellion, 1812 Invasion of Canada and A Few Acres of Snow look interesting.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947149Also, it's my personal opinion that modern miniatures rules have gotten longer and more complicated but neither more fun to play nor more realistic in terms of refighting a historical battle.

I see this too. I kept looking for a simple miniatures game, but the rules all read so complicated. The other issue is that I felt a lot of them are "miniatures arms race"--if I wanted to play with other people, I needed to be willing to buy the latest $50 single miniature to get its powers.

Fortunately, in the middle of one search, I found Steve Jackson Games' Ogre Miniatures 1 Kickstarter. Not exactly "miniatures" (if by miniatures, you mean using rulers), but I prefer hexes anyway.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;947182I'd love to get into miniature wargaming, especially historical and modern wargaming.

Any suggestions for a newcomer to the hobby?

This is kinda like asking "any advice for an aspiring crack addict?"

What I'd say is

1) do a lot of research, there's a ton of games out there, you should be able to find one that specifically appeals to you.

2) find the local wargamming club and attend a few mettings. Most times it will be easy to find someone who will have an extra army they'll let you play, and it will give you a feel for the more popular games in your area.

3) if you can, stick to 15mm. There's as many choices as 28mm and it will be hugely less of a burden on your pocketbook. Any game that can be played in 28mm can be proxied easily in 15mm.
 
Try out a few skirmish games that only use a handful of figures. If you can, join an escalation group (which generally starts very small and adds up the points per month or so, so people get the chance to build up their armies.

Also, make up your army list beforehand, dont just start buying cool models, that is the way to madness. Find out exactly what you need, then find the cheapest way to go about it. Don't feel obliged to buy the "official" miniatures of any gameline. Thats just marketing. There's tons of better priced, and in some cases, nicer-looking options.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947149Also, it's my personal opinion that modern miniatures rules have gotten longer and more complicated but neither more fun to play nor more realistic in terms of refighting a historical battle.

That was true of the 80s, pretty much the opposite is true these days.

Seems like the thread title should mention Miniatures, since minis wargaming is one type of wargaming, and cardboard counter games tend to be quite different.

Memoir '44 is very rules lite, BTW. Not bad as a first intro game, but very generic and gamey (notably less complex than OGRE, which BTW has a nice free PDF version of the rules, IIRC), The intro scenario to original Squad Leader is about 10 times more sophisticated rules, and 100+ times more realistic gameplay.

Hex and counter folks are welcome.  I'd like to know more about what's out there.  Really, a lot of stuff like Memoir 44 is essentially hex and counter but with miniatures instead of counters.

Quote from: David Johansen;947272Hex and counter folks are welcome.  I'd like to know more about what's out there.  Really, a lot of stuff like Memoir 44 is essentially hex and counter but with miniatures instead of counters.

LOL I guess I wanted a hex and counter game with neat miniatures. :D My thought on the Ogre minis was "Now I need to make little counter bases for the minis with the move, attack, and defense information."

Quote from: Doc Sammy;947182I'd love to get into miniature wargaming, especially historical and modern wargaming.

Any suggestions for a newcomer to the hobby?

First, I think you need to ask yourself if you are remotely interested in the modeling/collecting aspect of the hobby.

If the answer is yes then the best thing you can do to get started is to find a group of people who play and join in with some of their games.  Seems simple, but there are some challenges.

If you think this site is full of jaded grognards, go and hang out with some historical miniatures gamers!  Miniatures games take a large commitment, and wargamers are apt to look down their nose at card floppers, video gamers, board gamers, and less committed hobbyists (though most mini gamers I've known both play and respect RPGs). Miniatures games are spectacular to look at (if they are done well), so we old school wargamers are used to casual observers looking over our shoulders saying "ooh, ahh, do they move? did you paint them? can you sign my butt and teach me to read? etc." but it is very rare for new players to take a serious interest and make the commitment.  We are used to seeing enthusiasm fade and players flake out once a new player realizes there is more to the hobby than just sitting down and pushing lead on the table.  

So, I am just warning you that old hands may be skeptical or even put off by your interest at first. However, because new players are like unobtanium, most established groups will be thrilled to have you - if you can show genuine interest, and a little humility at the tremendous amount of time and money that mini games require.  New players are as good as gold, and probably more rare.

Once you get into a group things will progress naturally.  Most old hands have a mountain of lead that they will never have time to paint, and they will offer it freely to help you get started on your first armies.  I've donated painting supplies, unpainted armies, time to teach new players how to get started, even painted figs on many occasions - because... I'm sick of playing Carrhae with Alvin, or Waterloo with Dan.  New players means new games, new armies, new perspectives, new stratagies, and campaigns!

Bottom line is: if you are serious about getting started, people will be overjoyed to help you, if you are lukewarm you will likely get a cold shoulder.

Quote from: Tod13;947279LOL I guess I wanted a hex and counter game with neat miniatures. :D My thought on the Ogre minis was "Now I need to make little counter bases for the minis with the move, attack, and defense information."

If you're interested in World War 2 that approach works with Squad Leader and 1/300 miniatures also.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;947182I'd love to get into miniature wargaming, especially historical and modern wargaming.

Any suggestions for a newcomer to the hobby?

Go to Gary Con, or HistoriCon out on the east coast.  Play some games to see if you like it first.  Very likely googling "historical miniatures wargame conventions" will turn up SOMETHING near you.

But definitely "try before you buy."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947296Go to Gary Con, or HistoriCon out on the east coast.  Play some games to see if you like it first.  Very likely googling "historical miniatures wargame conventions" will turn up SOMETHING near you.

But definitely "try before you buy."

I will definitely check out HistoriCon as I'm out on the East Coast. I'd love to go to GaryCon one day though.

I'm not all that interested in WH40K, which is the predominant wargame here in Roanoke as far as I can tell, I'm more interested in historical wargaming of all types.

Flames of War looks cool to me, I've been watching a few YouTube videos of it lately and I think I might enjoy miniature wargaming. I am interested in the collectible aspect of it as well.

I played a lot of 40K in the 90's. Leagues, tournaments, and drunken garage games. I started playing D&D again this summer and have been buying many miniatures, a lot of them wargaming figs. While the GW prices were shocking, it was nice to see so many alternatives out there. I've got the rules for Hail Caesar and Kings of War, and both seem decent. For mass troops I like the Perry figures the most, and I find the price very reasonable.

There are also a lot of smaller skirmish games that look like they might be good and lack the sort of investment a big army entails.

There is a dedicated wargame store in my area and Bolt Action is very popular there. I've been thinking of giving it a shot.

For those that asked about getting into it, I would say to take a look at The War Store and Beasts of War to see what you might like. And even more importantly, find out what is being played in your area before committing to anything.

In terms of minatures Bolt Action (https://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action) does seem to have really nice quality WWII sets.

What about fantasy and sf war games? In terms of board games I've heard good things about the Battle of Five Armies and even the recent Assault of the Giants D&D board game.

How much fun are Napoleon at Waterloo and Hold the Line? I've seen them mentioned as good intros to the heavier or 'real' side of war games. The components for Hold the Line look a little uninspired. I don't mind minimal but it's better if it looks nice laid out on the table to me.

Silent Victory, a solo US subs game looks promising but it OOP. The same company has released semi-sequels called The Hunters and The Hunted but they don't seem available through Amazon.

Bolt Action is a fun little game.  Not super detailed but fast and fun.  It's also dead cheap to get into.  Two boxes of infantry gives you two platoons which is enough for a good game.  There's a decent starter set too.  It's an awful lot like Warhammer 40000 but with order dice that you draw out of a hat to see who gets to move a unit.  A mechanic that's great in a small game and slow in a big one.  Beyond the Gates of Antares is similar but it's a d10 roll under game.

Also note... 20mm plastics are BIG in Europe.  They've solved the "paint won't stick" problem, they're very nice figures, and they're way cheap.

Well, we could discuss mini rules for ever, and I have played most of them, but as long as we have people talking WWII, I am going to put a plug in for Battlegroup by the Plastic Soldier Company.  Flames of war and bolt action are popular, but their both pretty far off the mark in represnting WWII combat.  FoW devolves to parking lots of tanks lining up and firing at point blank range, and blot action would give you a good sim of star wars without jedi.  Battlegroup has simple rules that are very believable and recreate WWII ground combat extremely well.  The books are beautiful full color hardbacks with modeling advice, army lists and scenarios. The rules are a bit expensive and the game changes considerably by year and theater. The games are tense and fun, and it is designed for 20mm plastics which are dirt cheap.  Each fig equals 1 man or 1 vehicle/gun. It plays well from reinforced squad to battalion level, but bogs down beyond that.  

If you are looking for smaller scale games, I recommend Chain of Command by Two Fat Lardies.  Crossfire by Arty Conlife is out of print, but is a remarkable game for infantry combat.  

IMO, the only thing FOW or BA have going for them is that they are popular so it is easier to find opponents.  That can be a pretty big factor if you are just starting out, but there are much better games out there.  That said, WWII is not really my era.  I am an ancients guy, but head over to TMP and I think you'll hear much the same story.

I have Battle Group and have played it a couple times.  I like it okay and I'll agree it's a better simulation than Bolt Action or Flames of War.  Flames of War's rules certainly produce weird formations at times and Bolt Action is a touch too generic and simple while slowing down oddly and making unified offensives pretty much impossible.  Part of it is the whole gamist approach, Bolt Action  and Flames of War try pretty hard to fit the ranges to the table top rather than representing them realistically, they also lean to the Warhammer style of army building which can give you some odd armies at times.  Everything's a little too tough in Flames of War and everything dies a bit too easily in Bolt Action.

So, science fiction and fantasy are pretty widely supported these days from Clash of Kings to Kings of War.  There's a new FFG game, Rune Wars coming out next month that applies a lot of the stuff from X-wing to big regiment fantasy battles.  There are just tons of medieval, ancient, and fantasy games that overlap each other.  There are also Warhammer retroclones like 9th Age and Core Hammer.

Osprey books have dozens of niche games like Frostgrave, Rogue Stars, and Tomorrow's War, ranging from skirmishes to mass battles.

Quote from: David Johansen;947132So anyhow, what's your wargaming look like these days.

Pretty stagnant these days.

I last got some serious wargaming in 5 years ago, when I strong-armed some friends into buying into the prepainted, discontinued, and affordable AT-43. I guided them into finding great deals through eBay and private parties, helped them construct army lists, and wrote up battle reports on a blog. We got in about 5 months of intense campaign play, before the group stalled and I couldn't get it going again. Friends started making babies and it was all downhill from there.

A few years before that, I played a little bit of Flames of War with a good friend and some of his buddies. But I didn't buy into it that heavily. Which ended up a good thing, because that friend moved out of the country within a year, and no one else was interested in keeping that fire going.

A decade prior to that, around 2000, I bought into WFB 6th edition, and had a blast modelling and painting a Dwarf army. Purchased about 2500 points worth, and really enjoyed the process, but I didn't put any effort into building army lists or getting a fundamental understanding of the rules. I just really like painting the beardy bastards and their siege engines. So, when I finally got an army together, and went down to play a few times at a local GW store, I got pummeled in a few battles. That took some of the wind out of my sails. And within 6 months I packed everything up and eBay'd it.

These days, I'm not sure if I want to put forth the effort, or have the time, to construct some armies and get some people together. My attention has been a lot more focused on miniature-boardgames because I can find more of an audience for them. Lately, I've bought into the latest edition of BloodBowl, and it's my Spring/Summer project to paint up a number of teams, and get a lot of games in. Maybe I'll give it a go of either joining a league or putting one together myself.

What is considered "cheap" for "wargames"?

(All prices are USD.) I backed the Ogre Miniatures Set 1 Kickstarter because for $150 I could get the Ogre Miniatures Set 1 in three different colors, a copy of Ogre 6th Edition (box set), a copy of Ogre Reinforcement (box set) when it ships, and an Ogre card game. This is about 150 miniatures, with several being double sized (Ogre tanks).

So it comes out to, lets say $50 each for 3 different armies. (They even include a copy of Ogre Miniatures Lite, so it can even be a "real" (ruler) wargame if you want.)

When I looked at Bolt Action, it seemed really expensive. $40 for the core PDF. $40 for an eBook (is that ePub?). $20 for individual army PDFs. And "starter kits" at $150 each. It looks like 500 pt armies are sometimes available for around $75.

Not trying to pick on Bolt Action--it seems somewhat close to a lot of other miniatures games, except for the rule books. Most games that I've looked at, usually sci-fi or fantasy, offer their rule books for free as PDFs, which is probably due to the dependence on concept-specific minis rather than historical miniatures which are theoretically available from alternative sources.

Price is relative. A decent starting army in Warhammer Fantasy circa 8th edition would set one back $300-500, and thats before paints and supplies.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;947474Price is relative. A decent starting army in Warhammer Fantasy circa 8th edition would set one back $300-500, and thats before paints and supplies.

Yes, but a couple people referred to Bolt Action as being cheap or reasonable. So I was wondering what they considered reasonable.

a Bolt Action starter set runs at 70 -80 GBP msrp (roughly $85 to $100). As I dont play, I'm not sure how playable their starters are. Most games require quite a bit in addition to the starter to hit what the game considers a standard tournament army. So, say about $200 maybe  to get into it? Thats decent for a 28mm wargame. For 15mm it would be maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of that cost.

I guess it depends on what you consider a big game or reasonable.  If you use soft plastic 1/72 figures you can cut the cost by around 1/4.  If you use Wargames Factory's figures and cheap 1/48 tank kits you can cut it by around 1/2.  I'm not fond of 15mm for games where you're moving individual 15mm figures around but 15mm runs around $1 / figure depending what you get, with the exception of The Plastic Soldier Company which has great sets for low prices.  One nice thing is that the infantry are true scale to the armor so they actually have riders for the halftracks that fit in the seats. PSC also has some dirt cheap Russians in 28mm.  They're just scaled up versions of the 15mm figures.

Okay, as an old time historical miniatures grognard the idea of "non reusable" armies boggles my mind.  20 dwarfs are 20 dwarfs, 20 heavy horse are 20 heavy horse. A Tiger I Ausf E is a Tiger I Ausf E.

Or do people just not play a whole range of stuff any more?

I think it goes to the scale creep in the name of exclusion issue that permeates the hobby these days.  Personally I'm always telling people that I will use the minis for whatever I want because minis don't have to be game specific.  I mostly get stupefied, slack jawed stares in return.  Five years in and so little progress :(

Quote from: David Johansen;947533I think it goes to the scale creep in the name of exclusion issue that permeates the hobby these days.  Personally I'm always telling people that I will use the minis for whatever I want because minis don't have to be game specific.  I mostly get stupefied, slack jawed stares in return.  Five years in and so little progress :(

This is why I exclusively play with my gaming group, rather than strangers at a store.

We use the models we want, and everybody only plays with painted armies.

Quote from: David Johansen;947533I think it goes to the scale creep in the name of exclusion issue that permeates the hobby these days.  Personally I'm always telling people that I will use the minis for whatever I want because minis don't have to be game specific.  I mostly get stupefied, slack jawed stares in return.  Five years in and so little progress :(

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947497Okay, as an old time historical miniatures grognard the idea of "non reusable" armies boggles my mind.  20 dwarfs are 20 dwarfs, 20 heavy horse are 20 heavy horse. A Tiger I Ausf E is a Tiger I Ausf E.

Or do people just not play a whole range of stuff any more?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;947536This is why I exclusively play with my gaming group, rather than strangers at a store.

We use the models we want, and everybody only plays with painted armies.

I'm not sure where I saw anyone say anything about any of that--there's no quote in Gronan's post, so I don't know to which post it is responding.

We were comparing costs from different companies, so I could find out what other people thought was "normal"--not saying anything about having to use a particular companies' minis.

Painted armies are nice and not that hard to achieve.  Pick a neutral base color, spray paint it on.  Pick out, boots, weapons, and flesh in that order, dip, spray or brush on dull coat.  Is it art?  No but it's achievable and will pass.  Beginners shouldn't be expected to produce professional results but at least assemble and make an attempt.  Avoid the appearance of ugliness and thus the colors pink, purple, yellow, and orange.  Choose dull tones not bright ones.  Use a tanned flesh tone, it almost always looks better.  Don't be afraid to overlap colors or slop, just organize the sequence to cover the mistakes.  Nothing looks worse than white gaps between details.  If the paint won't flow out of the brush as you paint it's too thick.  Thin it a little and try again.  The first model will look like crap no mater what but that's okay, you keep the model and measure future models against it to measure your progress.  You can use Testors Enamels and get good results, but expect to spend a lot more time painting.  You can't use ceramic paints, they're just not right for the job so stay away from them.  Cheap dollar store paints and craft store paints are okay to try out but they'll never give you great results.  They're too gloppy and the pigments aren't ground fine enough.

Scenery doesn't need to be expensive.  As it happens the inside of most cereal and cracker boxes is brown, just the right color for drab wooden buildings.  It's really easy to build houses.  They're just boxes.  If you want a more complex house, add more boxes.  A green piece of cloth can be as simple as a cheap microfiber bed sheet.  You can pile books under it to make hills or build triangular stacking units from more cereal boxes.  Blue generic cereal boxes are a great source of rivers and streams.  Really I should write up a full article on budget scenery.

As someone who got into wargaming with Avalon Hill & SPI games, the interest in miniatures has always baffled me. They seem nice and all but acquiring, preparing, and storing them seems like an awful lot of trouble for not much gain. Just IMHO and I'd gladly play with someone else's equipment if you know what I mean.

In fairness the minis culture seems to have some interesting innovators (look up Paddy Griffith) but--this may be limited perspective speaking--board games have seemed to me to cover a wider range of topics and scales, with deep thought into problems of historical analysis via simulation. Sometimes though this causes 4e-like flame wars over the intrusion of Euro-like mechanics-first aesthetics into a simulation-first hobby.

As for recommended starter games I would not recommend the old SPI Napoleon at Waterloo--just seems too staid and not a great simulation either. Ogre is great fun and does fine by its imagined subject. The Columbia block games are also good intros. Might be good to start with a topic that interests you and seek recommendations.

Quote from: Tod13;947478Yes, but a couple people referred to Bolt Action as being cheap or reasonable. So I was wondering what they considered reasonable.

I consider $1-1.50 for a grunt to be very reasonable for the platoon scale systems. And there are quite a few different games within that range, including Bolt Action.

For Bolt Action the bigger stuff like heavy weapons and tanks are naturally higher but not outrageous (to me). Patton is 4$. I think Tristram Evan's estimate is probably about right.

Quote from: Arminius;947559As someone who got into wargaming with Avalon Hill & SPI games, the interest in miniatures has always baffled me. They seem nice and all but acquiring, preparing, and storing them seems like an awful lot of trouble for not much gain. Just IMHO and I'd gladly play with someone else's equipment if you know what I mean.

Its an aesthetic thing for me. Painting is a joy, and the look of a fully painted 3d army on well-modeled table is a visceral thrill for me that card and counter wargames can't provide.

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Yeah, I'm an artist mainly, if there isn't creative appeal I generally lose interest quickly.

Oh, sure, I get that. Those look great. But to me, preparing minis just seems like a chore combined with frustration. My wife has said she'd like to paint minis if I ever get them so that's one solution (but she's pretty busy these days). On top of that is the need to have a set not only for each era but even the particular nation/formation. I see people saying things like "I have a 54mm Seleucid army, anyone got some Parthians?" I don't want to be "the Seleucid guy". To each his own, though, really, they're beautiful and if you don't mind me touching them, I'll promise to be careful when we mix it up.

The only other thing that bugs me is that outside of skirmish games you usually (?) apparently (?) have 1 figure = some multiple of actual combatants, so the visual scale is off.

For many people, the painting is a huge part of the fun.  For those who feel otherwise, professional painting services are available.

Quote from: Arminius;947579... But to me, preparing minis just seems like a chore combined with frustration.  

Well, that's just it. If you aren't drawn to the modeling, painting, crafting aspect of the hobby then entering the hobby will likely be frustrating.  You spend more time planning, painting and building your armies than you do playing.

However, I do know lots of casual players who join in on games but allow someone else to do the "work."  There's nothing wrong with this as it gives the modelers people to play with and interact with.  The life of a mini's guy is a bit lonesome.

As far as game play goes - for some - boardgames, no matter how good, can never compare with way the visual and tactile aspects of a minis game inspire the imagination.  In RPG terms, its kind of an immersion thing.

QuoteOn top of that is the need to have a set not only for each era but even the particular nation/formation. I see people saying things like "I have a 54mm Seleucid army, anyone got some Parthians?" I don't want to be "the Seleucid guy". To each his own, though, really, they're beautiful and if you don't mind me touching them, I'll promise to be careful when we mix it up.

This can be a problem.  I usually will not paint an army unless it is a group project: "hey lets do crusades, I'll paint Saracens, and you can finish your Latins" - kind of thing.  Although, sometimes I will paint a pair of armies because there is some idea that I want to capture and show off.

QuoteThe only other thing that bugs me is that outside of skirmish games you usually (?) apparently (?) have 1 figure = some multiple of actual combatants, so the visual scale is off.

I know people who are bothered by this.  They often play 6mm games which have the added benefit of being extremely cheap and easy to store.  They don't really float my boat though.

Lack of opponents means that I do most of my wargaming via PC.

I've quite enjoyed Decisive Campaigns: Barbarassa, Flashpoint Campaigns and Wargame: AirLand Battle over the last 12 months. Also taking a look at Command Ops 2 at the moment.

Birds of Prey (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18606/birds-prey-air-combat-jet-age) is the only true tabletop wargame I've played in the last few years. It's an absolutely amazing modern air combat simulation. It's extremely dense, and takes a lot of effort to learn straight out of the rulebook (as I had to do), but it's relatively easy to teach, and extremely intuitive to play once you understand the fundamentals. Works best with multiple players per side, though, and I never got around to doing that.

One of my favourite wargames of all time is Close Action: The Age of Fighting Sail (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3553/close-action), which is another game that's quite dense and takes effort to learn from the rulebook, but is much easier to teach others, and runs very smoothly in play once the fundamentals are understood. If you can get 8 - 10 people together for a game, the communication system results in some absolutely brilliant fun.

I'm waiting on my massive piles of minis from the Polyversal kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cewargames/polyversal-miniatures-game?ref=user_menu) so that I can get back into 6mm sci fi. I had an absurdly massive collection of Space Marine minis back in the day (I could pretty much field the entire Space Wolves chapter, with Titan Legion and Imperial Guard support, plus an Eldar opposition force of equal value), which I sold in fit of anti-GW-rage; something I've long regretted doing. I've got five or six people who have all said they'd be willing to play Polyversal once or twice a year, so I should be able to get a game in most months. Of course, I'm working on the assumption that the rules aren't shit, which still remains to be seen.

Back in the day, I played a bit of World in Flames (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1499/world-flames) against my brother. We had high hopes for the Matrix games PC version, as setting up that monster of a game and keeping it set up for months at a time is completely impractical. Unfortunately, it remains to be seen if the PC version will ever be fully playable (last I check, managing convoys was simply far too much effort and would be an absolute nightmare for the Commonwealth player).

Interesting thread. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that 'wargaming' is different then 'RPG gaming'. But then, I freely admit that I'm weird.

For starters, getting into miniatures? Play with somebody else's figures. If you like what you see and how the games go, then get some of the plastic sets and have at it. Very small investment in tooling and painting, very small investment in figures, and you can always find somebody to take them if you don't like the genre.

One caveat: stay in the hobby, and when you get to be my age you'll have a basement like mine. Luckily for me, The Missus likes miniatures herself, and all of the girls like to play and paint. (They also know how to use big power tools as well, which makes them just as weird as dear old dad.)

Tristram, thank you for the pics!! Are any of those yours?

I love minis and I can't glue or paint worth a damn. But that's what eBay is for!

I can easily buy painted armies for the same price as unpainted, unglued figs. Often for much less if I am going after "older" edition figs.

The only downside is I rarely have an army with a fully unified paint job. But that's a minor issue for me compared the huge fun of getting to play with my toys.

BTW, I totally understand what Chirine means about the RPG / Wargaming mix. My fav minis events are all about scenarios with players acting out their commanders and immersing themselves into the battle. It's often why I've hosted events where I supply the minis - which is really cheap and easy if you use Mage Knight stuff.

Quote from: Spinachcat;947747Tristram, thank you for the pics!! Are any of those yours?

Alas no, I don't have the extra space for any permanent set-ups, my board changes weekly depending on the scenario, so I just have tons of individual terrain and buildings.

Hope to have a basement at some point where I can sustain more than one 6 x 4" table.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;947737Interesting thread. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that 'wargaming' is different then 'RPG gaming'. But then, I freely admit that I'm weird.

There'a pretty blurry line (that I like to dance around), but generally I call it "wargamming" when I'm using minis, and "RPGing" when its "theatre of the mind."

Quote from: Tristram Evans;947760There'a pretty blurry line (that I like to dance around), but generally I call it "wargamming" when I'm using minis, and "RPGing" when its "theatre of the mind."

To me, "wargaming" is when I'm mostly concerned with the strategy and tactics involved, instead of role-playing. "RPG" is when I'm mostly concerned with the "role-playing". (I might decide a commander in a wargame "likes" a particular tactic, or give bonuses to an RPGer that suggested a good tactic. But the point of the game is different.)

I know a lot of people here tend to be concerned about both at the same time, but we(me and my group) aren't. It kind of came up today in our RPG session. We're play-testing the RPG I wrote. I asked if they were happy with how combat went, the level of tactics needed, difficulty, and time for a turn. Basically, we don't really care too much about order within a turn and exact facings and stuff--if they become important--are hand-waved, role-played, or determined by dice. So that's role-playing for us.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;947737Interesting thread. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that 'wargaming' is different then 'RPG gaming'. But then, I freely admit that I'm weird.

Weeeeeellll.... to ME... and this is just one aging grognard's opinion... if the main object of the pastime is the battle itself, or the series of battles itself, such as the "Battle on the Ice" at GaryCon or the "Megarran Campaign" Phil ran... it's a wargame.  If the main object of the pastime is "inhabit an imaginary world", it's an RPG.

A couple years back at GaryCon Anthony Savatini interviewed me again for his documentary and we got to talking about the referee.  I said that what Dave [EDIT: WESLEY, NOT ARNESON!  JESUS!] added in Braunstein was the referee who was "the rest of the world." Usually in a wargame, the only figures present are the combatants, or if there are noncombatants they are victims or rescuees, and the referee is a "referee" in the football game sense, there to insure fair play; in a RPG you could walk down to the dock and ask some random sailor (the referee) "What ship is that" and he'd say "Yarr, that be the Poxy Strumpet out of Barnacle Bay."

What (again, to me) makes Braunstein and its offspring move further on the "RPG" side of the spectrum is the emphasis on things other than straight military actions.

But this is all opinion.  Reasonably informed opinion, I would say, based on a lot of experience, but still just opinion.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947932Weeeeeellll.... to ME... and this is just one aging grognard's opinion... if the main object of the pastime is the battle itself, or the series of battles itself, such as the "Battle on the Ice" at GaryCon or the "Megarran Campaign" Phil ran... it's a wargame.  If the main object of the pastime is "inhabit an imaginary world", it's an RPG.

But this is all opinion.  Reasonably informed opinion, I would say, based on a lot of experience, but still just opinion.

I'm old(ish) but I'm pretty sure I'm not a grognard, and I'll agree with your reasonably elegant definition. :D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947932Weeeeeellll.... to ME... and this is just one aging grognard's opinion... if the main object of the pastime is the battle itself, or the series of battles itself, such as the "Battle on the Ice" at GaryCon or the "Megarran Campaign" Phil ran... it's a wargame.  If the main object of the pastime is "inhabit an imaginary world", it's an RPG.

A couple years back at GaryCon Anthony Savatini interviewed me again for his documentary and we got to talking about the referee.  I said that what Dave Arneson added in Braunstein was the referee who was "the rest of the world." Usually in a wargame, the only figures present are the combatants, or if there are noncombatants they are victims or rescuees, and the referee is a "referee" in the football game sense, there to insure fair play; in a RPG you could walk down to the dock and ask some random sailor (the referee) "What ship is that" and he'd say "Yarr, that be the Poxy Strumpet out of Barnacle Bay."

What (again, to me) makes Braunstein and its offspring move further on the "RPG" side of the spectrum is the emphasis on things other than straight military actions.

But this is all opinion.  Reasonably informed opinion, I would say, based on a lot of experience, but still just opinion.

I think I agree with all this, myself. What's been baffling me have been the references to 'wargames' in relation to 'rpgs', where the former seems to involve he use of micrometers, calipers, and similar precision devices in play. Never saw that, back in the day, and I wonder where this has come from...

Going back to the original poster's comments, that is a store after my own heart, though Alberta is a bit of a trek for me I fear.

A couple of friends of mine at the Iowa State University club are working on a set of Spanish Succession war rules right now, and playtesting them.  The work seems fairly well in hand, but I fear it is not my period so I know rather little about it otherwise.  My own taste runs to Napoleon's Battles either in the original 15 mm or scaled up for 25/28.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;947951I think I agree with all this, myself. What's been baffling me have been the references to 'wargames' in relation to 'rpgs', where the former seems to involve he use of micrometers, calipers, and similar precision devices in play. Never saw that, back in the day, and I wonder where this has come from...

I think it's always been there in potentia. Remember the English Phil Barker saying "those Minneapolis gamers would rather argue than play?" Now their spiritual descendents have more elaborate toys to use in their arguments.

It's the whole tournament culture and mindset.  Though GW did make some fun renaissance looking plastic callipers and templates for Warhammer 8th edition.  At $40 they should have been brass, not plastic.

Now, laser pointers I like, great for determining line of sight.  I think GW sells one of those at an absurd mark up too.

Really, I'm surprised they didn't invent their own system of measurement with its own units to force people to buy and use only official Games Workshop measuring devices.

Quote from: David Johansen;947965Really, I'm surprised they didn't invent their own system of measurement with its own units to force people to buy and use only official Games Workshop measuring devices.

They didn't think of it.  Units with color coded move increments, each of which is some bizarre number.  "RED = 6 17/64 inches, BLUE = 9.003017 inches," etc.

Actually, I think the Blood Bowl Range ruler works like that.

Ah, well, GW bashing is one of my favorite pass times but it's not really wargaming.

Anyone got a dream project that will probably never be?

Mine is to run a 15mm grav tank assault on a flying city with units below the city on the ground in 6mm.  :D

Quote from: David Johansen;947988Anyone got a dream project that will probably never be?

I'd like to recreate/play out the Inquisition's invasion of Holy Terra from WITEHATTSD

On a slightly different note, anybody at GaryCon will be able to play all sorts of miniatures.  The historical stuff never fills up, come on in!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948917On a slightly different note, anybody at GaryCon will be able to play all sorts of miniatures.  The historical stuff never fills up, come on in!

Seconded! Gary Con has some of the very best 'ye olde schoole' miniatures gaming around!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;949789Seconded! Gary Con has some of the very best 'ye olde schoole' miniatures gaming around!

Last year I was on the opposite side of the table from Mike Reese, author of TRACTICS, in a TRACTICS game.  Mike is also a retired US Army treadhead.

The game was called for time... the ref's car broke down, not his fault... but after the game I went and saw things from Mike's side of the table.

Crap on toast, we were gonna get shredded.  He had a platoon of Fireflys set up in a perfect flanking ambush when we came over the ridgeline.

Nice to know the taxpayers' money for training him was well spent.

You know, I've never actually gone to a convention.  Some guys here held a decent Warhammer tournament once and there were two entertainment / comic conventions going on at one time for a couple years until they put each other under.  I should write an Ego Wars game where reality always wins in the end.  Really, I'd rather go to something more gaming specific.  Call me a weirdo but I feel the other stuff always over-shadows the gaming.

My shipment of the new edition of Flames of War is held up in a very real blizzard right now.  I may have to delay my release day events or something.

Noticed when reading the 70s and 80s books of Designers and Dragons that The War of the Ring and Battle of Five Armies are actually pretty old wargames from that era. Anyone played the reissues?

Quote from: Voros;950601Noticed when reading the 70s and 80s books of Designers and Dragons that The War of the Ring and Battle of Five Armies are actually pretty old wargames from that era. Anyone played the reissues?

If you mean the GW War of the Ring and Battle of the Five Armies wargames, those aren't re-issues, they just happen to have the same names.

War of the Ring was an adaption of GW's LOTR miniature game to cover larger battle scenarios with units instead of individually based models.

Battle of the 5 Armies was an adaption of Warmaster to the Hobbit scenario in 10mm. On the plus side, it had the most beautiful plastic 10mm miniatures I've ever seen in my life.

The 1977 War of the Ring wargame was a card and counter game from SPI based on the Bakshi animated film.

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I'm not familiar with any previous Battle of the Five Armies wargame, but it seems likely than one if not many more were made throughout the years.

Didn't SPI do an unlicensed version of War of the Rings at one point?  Anyhow I friend of mine had it, I liked the three player version with Saruman holding out against the west and Sauron.

There was also a game by Darlene (of DMG succubus and Greyhawk map fame) called Riddle of the Ring or something like that.  ICE did a Fellowship of the Ring game and, I think, a Hobbit game in the eighties.

Thanks Tristram, I assumed they were reissues or updates like Cosmic Encounter or Fury of Dracula.

@David, a quick search suggests that the ICE game was called Riddle of the Ring. Card-based, looks cool but going for a fortune these days.

A game with art by Darlene sounds terrific. I think her art is among the best of the early D&D school.

Things certainly get confusing as there are a load of Tolkein themed games all with similar or the exact same names. This site seems to be a good resource to sort them all out. (http://www.freewebs.com/tolkienboardgamecollecting/)