I wanted to see if there was anyone out there playing naval wargames or who has an interest in them.

My main interests in naval wargaming have traditionally been Age of Sail and Renaissance galley battles, but I have played a fair bit of later stuff, from pre-dreadnought battles to modern combat.

Some of the rules I have played and enjoyed:

Age of Sail:  Heart of Oak - this one rocks on toast.  It is the closest I've seen to recreating the feel of sailing by the wind while not being too complicated.

Pre-Dreadnought: Ironclads and Ether Flyers - while technically a Victorian sci-fi set of rules, they work quite well for "straight" historical naval battles

WW1/WW2: Long ago I played General Quarters at cons and at club games, but it never really caught my interest.  

I have been playing Mongoose's Victory at Sea fast-play rules.  Overall I am satisfied, and it produces a fast and fun game that feels historical, although it works best for surface to surface engagements.  Aircraft are simple to play with (a major advantage over most rules), but they are not nearly as effective as they were historically.  There are some ideas floating around about how to fix that, but since my main interest is playing hypothetical wars between the great powers in the late 1920s/early 1930s, it doesn't bother me that much.  The planes kinda sucked then anyways...

What about you?  What are you playing?


TGA

I would like to hear more about Heart of Oak. I was an avid player of Wooden Ships & Iron Men, and I never tried any other age of sail games other than Fighting Sail, which I wasn't very keen on. (A lot of other people liked it, I don't know why.) I remember when Close Action was just a WS&IM variant which was demoed at Origins. I liked what the designers were doing with it--and I got to keep the revised charts they handed out--but I never followed up on the game when they finally released it as a standalone.

Oh, wait--Heart of Oak is the tactical system from Privateers & Gentlemen, right? Still haven't played it, but I know what it is.

The other naval games I've played are all WWI/WWII designs. Dreadnought is rather abstract, and I think the post-WWI ship values are off, but it provides a manageable simulation of fleet combat. (Except that, like nearly all of the games on naval warfare, it doesn't really represent command-control issues. The closest most games come is suggesting team play with limited communication.)

Destroyer Captain (which is in a family of games that also includes Ironbottom Sound and The Royal Navy) is great fun, with a good level of detail but still some streamlining and rules-engineering to simplify play. I.e., the system represents the interplay of shell weight, rate of fire, and armor a bit abstractly but still produces realistic results in terms of the effect on a target.

I've also played the advanced tactical combat system from Bismarck, which is by the same designer as DC but more detailed in that each shell hit is accounted for precisely. I really loved that system, but the variety of ships available was limited to those involved in the chase of the Bismarck and a few hypothetical combatants.

On the strategic level, I've always been a big fan of War at Sea and especially Victory in the Pacific. VitP is a great game, moderately realistic for what it tries to do, and wonderfully full of strategems and counter-strategems, all in a pretty simple game.

(I own a number of other naval games, from Trireme to Ironclads to Flattop, but I haven't had a chance to play them.)

On a tangential note I loved the Advanced Naval Warfare Rules for Empires in Arms.
There´s nothing like leading feudal troops led by the venerable Grand Vizier to capture expensive Hulls on some mediterranean rock, just to tip the naval balance of power in favor of the highest bidder...

Apart from that I liked Wooden Ships & Iron Men too. Sadly, scenario based games are always shunned in favor of strategic/campaign style games in our group. Maybe I´ll be able to entice someone to play the seven years connected scenarios.

How were those Nth Fleet games? Never played them.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI would like to hear more about Heart of Oak. I was an avid player of Wooden Ships & Iron Men, and I never tried any other age of sail games other than Fighting Sail, which I wasn't very keen on. (A lot of other people liked it, I don't know why.) I remember when Close Action was just a WS&IM variant which was demoed at Origins. I liked what the designers were doing with it--and I got to keep the revised charts they handed out--but I never followed up on the game when they finally released it as a standalone.

Oh, wait--Heart of Oak is the tactical system from Privateers & Gentlemen, right? Still haven't played it, but I know what it is.

You're right on the money.  Heart of Oak was originally the tactical naval rules that came with the old Privateers & Gentlemen RPG by FGU.  Fortunately the game is now available as a PDF on DriveThru, and at $3.50 it is a good deal (and I noticed that it is FGU's top seller the last time I checked).  In general I prefer miniatures to board games for aesthetic reasons, but with age of sail games it goes beyond that.  

As much as I wanted to enjoy WS&IM I could never get past the limitations of hexes to represent wind-powered ship movement.  Heart of Oak has a pretty elegant movement system that gives you a good feel for the role of wind and the various tactics of positioning your ship in regards to the wind and carrying sail that I just don't get with hexes.  In fact, a friend who is a lunatic for the period found the 16-point compass used by Heart of Oak to be too limiting and devised a 32-point compass to get a more nuanced positioning of the wind.  The game's combat system is pretty straightforward, if a little fiddly with hits being determined by a percentage of fire factors, and it pretty accurately reflects the tactical conditions and choices of the period.

What can I say, I like the game.  It is not perfect, and it is a creature of the late 1970s/early 80s game design, so it could really use a good rewrite for clarity at some points and *really* needs an index (which I think my lunatic friend might have put together...I'll have to check with him).

Quote from: Elliot WilenThe other naval games I've played are all WWI/WWII designs...(I own a number of other naval games, from Trireme to Ironclads to Flattop, but I haven't had a chance to play them.)

I've heard of most of the games that you mentioned, but most of my naval gaming has been of the miniature variety and not boardgames.  I'll check them out.  Destroyer Captain sounds particularly interesting, as I have always liked the small combatant and coastal warfare stuff.  I have in the past made great use of elements of boardgames in my miniature gaming, like when we used the naval search system in AH's Guadalcanal to set up battles using a miniatures game, so maybe there are some things that I can make some good use of!


TGA

Quote from: SettembriniOn a tangential note I loved the Advanced Naval Warfare Rules for Empires in Arms.

I loved those rules, too!  When I was an avid player of EiA we always used them.  It made the naval game much more interesting and presented Britain with some neat options and even more challenges.

Quote from: SettembriniHow were those Nth Fleet games? Never played them.

I never played them either.  I owned a few on the theory that I would eventually use them as part of a modern miniatures-based campaign game, but never got around to it.  I sold them on eBay, and now I am starting to regret it.  I've always wanted to do a "war room" style modern naval campaign, maybe based on a crisis in the South China Sea, with two teams of players in different rooms and referees feeding information to them on map boards.  I would love to make it feel as much like a ship's CIC as possible, but using red lightbulbs is probably going too far...


TGA

While the Nth fleet games were popular in their day, I haven't heard very good things about them, from a realism standpoint, from people whose opinions I respect. Harpoon is the king in that area (well, maybe a little more tactical than the Fleet games).

I just remembered that I also enjoyed AH's Submarine, but solitaire play of that game (which is all I did) is necessarily a lot different from FTF, so I don't have a good feel for how it would work with an opponent.

About Destroyer Captain, you might have trouble finding a copy, but Ironbottom Sound II is probably not too hard to locate. It was published as a ziplock game, maybe around 2000.

I'm out of date by quite a bit - haven't done naval warfare games in nearly a decade.  The Nth Fleet series was generally fun.  It was semi-realistic regarding overall capabilities but had many oddities.  The revised movement rules in The General gave it a better feel.  
 
I really didn't like Harpoon much (this is based 10-15 years ago, so some issues may be fixed).  Once you sat down to play, it had holes in the rules and the book was poorly edited.  It worked ok for a single encounter or battle with only a few ships/planes/subs on each side (no CVNs).  Anything beyond that and it was too cumbersome.
 
I'll have to check out Heart of Oak plus Ironclads and Ether Flyers..

Quote from: Elliot WilenWhile the Nth fleet games were popular in their day, I haven't heard very good things about them, from a realism standpoint, from people whose opinions I respect. Harpoon is the king in that area (well, maybe a little more tactical than the Fleet games).

Thanks for the tip, Elliot!  I don't feel so bad about getting rid of them now...   In any case, I have played a lot of Harpoon in my time (I bought one of the old red cover editions from Adventure Games at a con waaaaay back in the day), and I would probably use it for any modern gaming I decided to do.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI just remembered that I also enjoyed AH's Submarine, but solitaire play of that game (which is all I did) is necessarily a lot different from FTF, so I don't have a good feel for how it would work with an opponent.

About Destroyer Captain, you might have trouble finding a copy, but Ironbottom Sound II is probably not too hard to locate. It was published as a ziplock game, maybe around 2000.

I'll keep an eye out for those and check them out.  How often do you get a chance to play naval games?  Do you usually have to play solitaire, or are there other players in your area?


TGA

Quote from: NicephorusI'm out of date by quite a bit - haven't done naval warfare games in nearly a decade.

To be honest, I am sort of in the same boat (pun intended).  I played a lot of Heart of Oak about eight years ago (we had a neat campaign in the Java Sea going), but not much since.  I love reading about galley warfare in the Renaissance, but so far haven't found a rule set I like, or people to play with for that matter.

What has recently lit a fire under my ass about it lately has been the new Victory at Sea rules.  They have caught on like wildfire at the local gaming club, probably because we have been playing at lot of Mongoose's Babylon 5 A Call To Arms game, upon which VaS is based and because WW2 is such a popular period.

Anyone playing VaS out there, btw?
 

Quote from: NicephorusI really didn't like Harpoon much (this is based 10-15 years ago, so some issues may be fixed).  Once you sat down to play, it had holes in the rules and the book was poorly edited.  It worked ok for a single encounter or battle with only a few ships/planes/subs on each side (no CVNs).  Anything beyond that and it was too cumbersome.

Yeah, I have the same feelings about Harpoon, but the later edition were a lot better.  I still haven't found a good fleet action modern naval game.  I'd love one with a more abstracted combat system than Harpoon's, mainly because in the way I envision using it the players wouldn't interact with the system, but would only receive info from the refs about the results.  It would have to be quick and dirty action for the refs.
 

Quote from: NicephorusI'll have to check out Heart of Oak plus Ironclads and Ether Flyers..

I recommend both heartily!


TGA

The harpoon computer game was a blast:

"Delta X-Ray, Vampire detected"

Quote from: SettembriniThe harpoon computer game was a blast:

"Delta X-Ray, Vampire detected"

Ahhhh, the memories...

"VAMPIRE! VAMPIRE! VAMPIRE!"



TGA

I loved Victory in the Pacific as a strategic level game. I created a number of board games which shall never see the light of day based on it's mechanics. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who is into war games any more, and thus they languish in the recesses of my closet, untouched.

-clash

I'm aware of two "big names" in the wargaming hobby who are working on games using the same or similar system. Charles Vasey's project is a Napoleonic/Nelsonic game, while Stephen Newberg's is a WWI game. I'm kind of puzzled how the system will work for either of those eras, but they probably know what they're doing. Newberg's project is probably closer to seeing the light of day if it hasn't already been released; Vasey's may have been shelved indefinitely.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianHow often do you get a chance to play naval games?  Do you usually have to play solitaire, or are there other players in your area?

Not in a while. Since I got married my time for gaming has gone way down, and lately I've been concentrating more on RPGs, with the occasional Squad Leader. For a while back in the 90's though I was playing DC solitaire on my kitchen table, and I managed to get one FTF game in with an old gaming buddy when I visited him on the other coast. Before that I'd played a fair amount of VitP with another friend over here in Berkeley...and earlier still, I'd played a lot of VitP and WS&IM back in the 70's & early 80's, when I was in middle school & high school.

Quote from: Elliot WilenNot in a while. Since I got married my time for gaming has gone way down, and lately I've been concentrating more on RPGs, with the occasional Squad Leader. For a while back in the 90's though I was playing DC solitaire on my kitchen table, and I managed to get one FTF game in with an old gaming buddy when I visited him on the other coast. Before that I'd played a fair amount of VitP with another friend over here in Berkeley...and earlier still, I'd played a lot of VitP and WS&IM back in the 70's & early 80's, when I was in middle school & high school.

If you replace "Since I got married" with "Since I moved to the suburbs" you have my past relationship with wargames pretty much nailed down too.

-clash