http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/11/14/immersing-yourself-in-your-game/

Came across this nifty little article on increasing immersion in mini wargaming. Apparently going to be an ongoing series. Thought it might be of interest to a fw folks here.

So, obviously anyone whose familiar with my posts here knows I'mpretty big into immersion in RPGs, but the prospect is much trickier in mini wargamming. It is the reason that I will only play with people who paint their minis, and that I put a lot of effort into scenery. What about yourself? Do you immerse while wargamming at all? How would you describe the difference between that and RPG immersion? Any helpful tips of your own to increase immersion?

How well do the minis have to be painted to satisfy you? I'm not very good, I can only manage one or two solid colors, some unmodified basic skin color, and a metal texture over weapons. stuff like facial details or a wooden grip on a gun, forget about it.

IMO an immersive minis wargame is a lot like an RPG. I've played 'immersive Warhammer Battle' - but it was immersive because I was essentially run RPG-style by myself and my son; eg the battles were from prior in-game events, the forces were not point-buy balanced but rather reflected what the sides should be able to field. A lot of emphasis on world-simulation over gaminess, I guess.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;798788How well do the minis have to be painted to satisfy you? I'm not very good, I can only manage one or two solid colors, some unmodified basic skin color, and a metal texture over weapons. stuff like facial details or a wooden grip on a gun, forget about it.

Oh I don't have high standards. Most things are being viewed from a few feet away on a tabletop. I just don't want to see shiny metal or an entirely grey plastic army across from me. My game group has a "3 colours minimum" standard. Some guys are really into painting, others just make sure you can tell the difference between whats skin, fur, or metal, and I'm fine with that.

Quote from: TristramEvans;798782How would you describe the difference between that and RPG immersion? Any helpful tips of your own to increase immersion?

I think immersion happens whenever you see events in world-terms rather than as an abstract game, and it's a continuum rather than either/or. Chess is completely non-immersive, hex & chit wargames are usually only slightly immersive, 'sand table' type miniature wargames are more immersive, and single-character RPGs tend to be the most immersive.

There can be a sense of in-world immersion in a minis battle even where there is no real player identification with a single characer in the battle. What seems to matter is the sense that there is a world outside the battle and the battle represents events in-world. So campaigns tend to be more immersive than one-off battles. Point-buy balance reduces immersion - this is true with RPG 'CR balanced encounters' too.

BTW I remember playing the original Medieval Total War videogame and feeling 'immersed' during some of the battles - usually plausible events and a sense of dread/apprehension were major factors. I never got this feeling playing the later games, I think possibly the faster battles and weaker AI contributed; the better graphics made no difference - I'd agree that minis don't need to be beautifully painted for immersion.

Does you spend time looking at the battle at eye level (for the minis)? And if so does that increase your  immersion?

Sadly, I was able to achieve more immersion with ASCII text Rogue than with Larn with its own custom character set.  Perhaps there's something like the uncanny valley that blocks immersion more if something falls just short (like unpainted miniatures) rather than a lot short (like cardboard counters in hexes).  We use miniatures in D&D really just to track and communicate where people are; but when the DM selects inappropriate miniatures it tends to be more distracting than when a die is used, and distracting is probably close to spoiling immersion.

Frankly I think that article is a load of drivel.

"We all create narratives in our minds about our little army men and women,"

Um... no, we don't.  I'm playing a game.  I depend on the referee to give me the context needed if any.  Give me the situation, my forces, and the victory conditions.

Note that I am almost 100% a historical miniatures gamer.  If you tell me I'm part of Patton's 3rd Army in January 1945, I know what that means.

"Focus" I'll buy.  The article seems to use immersion to mean "building a story or backstory beyond the immediate game."  And no, I don't do that.

Quote from: Bren;799045Does you spend time looking at the battle at eye level (for the minis)? And if so does that increase your  immersion?

Scrolling in definitely increased immersion in Medieval Total War, but I pretty much keep a bird's-eye view playing Warhammer. Might get down for a street-view look very occasionally. Same with RPGs using minis.

Quote from: rawma;799073Sadly, I was able to achieve more immersion with ASCII text Rogue than with Larn with its own custom character set.  Perhaps there's something like the uncanny valley that blocks immersion more if something falls just short (like unpainted miniatures) rather than a lot short (like cardboard counters in hexes).  

I agree about uncanny valley effects - but I prefer the simple graphics on current version of ADOM (a Roguelike) to the old pure ASCII version, I guess that's my sweet spot. Anything much more detailed would be distracting - I suspect holographic minis would likewise hit the uncanny valley for me, but nicely painted ones are great and I don't really mind unpainted.

I agree that inappropriate minis can really hurt immersion. I keep some empty bases for when I don't have a good mini, they seem to work fine.

Quote from: Old Geezer;799079Frankly I think that article is a load of drivel.

"We all create narratives in our minds about our little army men and women,"

Um... no, we don't.  I'm playing a game.  I depend on the referee to give me the context needed if any.  Give me the situation, my forces, and the victory conditions.

Note that I am almost 100% a historical miniatures gamer.  If you tell me I'm part of Patton's 3rd Army in January 1945, I know what that means.

"Focus" I'll buy.  The article seems to use immersion to mean "building a story or backstory beyond the immediate game."  And no, I don't do that.

Okay, you don't do that. So it's obviously not aimed at you.

Weird from a guy whose all about OD&D.

Quote from: Bren;799045Does you spend time looking at the battle at eye level (for the minis)? And if so does that increase your  immersion?

No not unless I'm checking for LoS. My "PoV" during a game is as a general surveying the battle I suppose.

Quote from: S'mon;798953I think immersion happens whenever you see events in world-terms rather than as an abstract game, and it's a continuum rather than either/or. Chess is completely non-immersive, hex & chit wargames are usually only slightly immersive, 'sand table' type miniature wargames are more immersive, and single-character RPGs tend to be the most immersive.

Yeah I'd concur with all that.

Quote from: rawma;799073Sadly, I was able to achieve more immersion with ASCII text Rogue than with Larn with its own custom character set.  Perhaps there's something like the uncanny valley that blocks immersion more if something falls just short (like unpainted miniatures) rather than a lot short (like cardboard counters in hexes).  We use miniatures in D&D really just to track and communicate where people are; but when the DM selects inappropriate miniatures it tends to be more distracting than when a die is used, and distracting is probably close to spoiling immersion.

See weird thing for me is I dont ever use minis in RPGs I find they distract from my immersion. But with Wargames I'm in a very different mode of thought I suppose.

Quote from: TristramEvans;799295See weird thing for me is I dont ever use minis in RPGs I find they distract from my immersion. But with Wargames I'm in a very different mode of thought I suppose.

THIS.

I totally get this.  With mini wargaming well crafted terrain and painted minis help me connect with the forces and scenarios.  I simply don't understand playing with unpainted (or half-assembled!) figs, books for hills and an upended oatmeal container as some kind of silo.  You can get a far more satisfying experience from hex and counter games than a mess like that.  Needless to say, I don't play much anymore- more painter and modeller these days now.

If I tried to do the same with rpgs, I would drive myself nuts.  I'd feel like I'd have to model new terrain for many scenarios to satisfy the completionist in me.  Plus, characters' gear changes as they advance, and I'd constantly be converting just to keep up. Too many variables involved and I prefer to picture the game in my mind's eye anyhow.