This article at polygon.com is about the video game industry, and the negative effects that childish pricks have towards game developers. From simple internet threats, to finding home addresses and calling local police with fraudulent claims of wrong-doing.

I've noticed a LOT of similar shit going on towards tabletop developers. Perhaps not going so far (not that I know of, anyway), but the same in spirit. How many threads on this very site either started or devolved into essentially a Klan rally against a writer or developer over a game that hasn't come out yet? Combine that with all of the equal stupidity at Big Purple, SA, CM, and all the other boards.

The fact that I haven't heard of any tabletop developer calling it quits over fanboy threats may indicate the average age level of our hobby (adults tend to realize that threats can have real life consequences), or it may just be because there are so few tabletop gamers compared to video games.

Either way, people get way too emotionally involved in shit that doesn't fucking matter.

With tabletop games, we can handwave the shit we don't like away (don't like the new edition? keep playing the old one. Don't like a rule revision? Use your own) while video game players don't really have that option (It's highly doubtful that anyone with the capability of cracking open a video game and rewriting the code the way they want it would bother with threatening someone over a small revision). But there are shitloads of tabletop players and GMs who still whine and piss and moan about changes to their favorite games, or even games that they haven't played and will never play.

One of the reasons I never got into DnD as a kid was because the first DM I ever had whined constantly about how Salvatore "ruined MY Forgotten Realms." Seriously. Still whines about that shit to this day, and I don't even game with him anymore. That's not even an isolated incident. I see that kind of mentality almost every day on forums.

Anyway, my point is this. Most gamers are pretty cool. But there needs to be some sort of check on the shitty ones. I wince every time I see a thread started by a GM who complains about a shitty player. For me, I just don't play with, talk to, argue with, or even acknowledge them.

It's a real thing.

I've had places where I've worked that have had no outward sign of what they were, for fear of this.  Even when they did, there was ever-present security.

I got to go to Korea in early 2002 to work with NCSoft on a collaboration with my company.  They showed me the steel door to customer service that was *dented* from people trying to break in due to raging.  I forget what it was they used to try to batter it down.

The online threats and stuff is old hat, of course, but I doubt there's many game devs out there that don't have at least some kind of story about actual, physical harassment of their workplace.

I agree with you, everloss. Though considering the basic human nature of getting overinvolved in things that we do - remember there are people willing to crack skulls for their favourite sports team's "honour" - I don't see that changing too quickly.

But, and there is of course, a small but:

At the same time, if you can't take the heat that popularity brings, do yourself a favour and either drop out early on, or prepare to go on full Van Gogh and start sending your ears to prostitutes. There was recently a huge "Fez 2 Mez" (ha ha), that brought this issue to my attention, where the developer had a complete (well, at least apparently, unless it was a marketing stunt) meltdown due to someone harshly criticising him as hipster. I understand you have cool work you wish to create, and that's it. But once your product reaches the public, you must develop a thick skin, or you will smash yourself to pieces.

The article specifically mentions Fez 2 and how the developer said, "fuck it, it's cancelled." I had never heard of it, before reading this article; ain't my scene. I agree, you need to have a thick skin if you're going to be in the public eye, but I don't have anything against the guy for quitting when it was no longer fun for him.
To paraphrase every person who has ever worked in sales or customer service;
"This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fucking customers."

Quote from: everloss;683328The article specifically mentions Fez 2 and how the developer said, "fuck it, it's cancelled." I had never heard of it, before reading this article; ain't my scene. I agree, you need to have a thick skin if you're going to be in the public eye, but I don't have anything against the guy for quitting when it was no longer fun for him.
To paraphrase every person who has ever worked in sales or customer service;
"This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fucking customers."

Neither do I, but the Fez developer is pretty ironic, since he was actually the guy making death threats to that critic who pissed him off, and generally trying to whip his fans into an outrage of sorts. I suppose my point would be - don't be a drama queen yourself, and blame everything on the fans, when you yourself can't hold any tidbit of criticism.

And indeed, this rabid form of fan outrage is very bad - because it can be used to silence out legitimate criticism. Bioware did that in regard to that whole controversy regarding one of female writers saying she doesn't like "game part of gaming", or so, which combined with general shift of Bioware's writing towards harlequinesque, caused a massive outrage, with the whole dance of unbalanced fans making idiotic death threats involved, while the legitimate criticism - that indeed, the writing took a turn towards fanfictiony - was swept under the rug of "our writers will not respond to pressure from  terrorists".

The more damning example would be the whole Feminist Frequency Kickstarter screw - up, where Sarkeesian unlocked unmoderated comments for the first time under her videos, allowing all the rabid anti - fans to come out of the woodwork, to show later to the gaming media the chauvinism and hatred for her work - while getting enough ammunition to dismiss any valid criticism as well.

And another example from Bioware & EA - the ME 3 endings controversy, where the rabid charge of fans at the start allowed them to try and toss those out as "whining" and "player entitlement" (that term is truly something I despise, yes, horrible entitlement that I get what I paid for). In that case though, some ground was perhaps fortunately gained, though even still, not entirely.

I don't know much about Fez or the guy involved in it.  I've heard the story, though.

I will say this - my Facebook feed is mostly game industry folks.  And the one comment I really saw about the whole thing was "there are really two responses to this:  One, 'who the hell is that?' and two:  'Good!'"  I don't recall seeing a ton of sympathy for him.  That's subject to my memory, of course.

I'm not saying I agree - I don't know the guy, even by reputation.  Just repeating what I saw.

Harassment of game devs is definitely a thing, though, regardless of how relevant it was to the Fez example.

Quote from: robiswrong;683332I don't know much about Fez or the guy involved in it.  I've heard the story, though.

I will say this - my Facebook feed is mostly game industry folks.  And the one comment I really saw about the whole thing was "there are really two responses to this:  One, 'who the hell is that?' and two:  'Good!'"  I don't recall seeing a ton of sympathy for him.  That's subject to my memory, of course.

I'm not saying I agree - I don't know the guy, even by reputation.  Just repeating what I saw.

Harassment of game devs is definitely a thing, though, regardless of how relevant it was to the Fez example.

I'd broaden that to "harassment of developers" in general - remember The World According to Garp?

Quote from: Rincewind1;683333I'd broaden that to "harassment of developers" in general - remember The World According to Garp?

Probably.  I'm only speaking to my experience, either first-hand or via friends.

I understand your point. Some people will fan the flames for attention or to promote their agenda.

But there is a serious problem when people are threatening someone's children for a game that they have no need to purchase, play, or even have any reason to actually care about. Players/customers have zero ties to a product that they did absolutely nothing to help develop. The outrage comes from some weird sense of entitlement that absolute strangers are supposed to cater to outrageous whims of anonymous persons because of... reasons. To me, that is simply bizarre and grotesque.

It reminds me of when I was a little kid and would get mad when I died playing Super Mario Bros and had a tantrum and threw the controller at the screen. Yeah, I got mad, but I never once thought of threatening the life of Miyamoto's children. I didn't write to Nintendo Power saying I was going to murder everyone because The Adventures of Link wasn't the same game as Legend of Zelda, ya know?

Now, if you paid into a kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign for a game, and the end result is nothing how it was initially sold to you, yeah, you're entitled to be pissed off. But death threats? Having the SWAT team called to someone's house? All because you chose to spend a few bucks on something that wasn't even guaranteed to happen in the first place? That's ridiculous.

I agree that in some instances game companies/developers could handle criticism better, but I'm not talking about criticism. Criticism is usually meant to be constructive, and persons in a creative field should listen to criticism. This is about sociopathic hatred that is causing creative people to stop being creative.

Quote from: everloss;683339I understand your point. Some people will fan the flames for attention or to promote their agenda.

But there is a serious problem when people are threatening someone's children for a game that they have no need to purchase, play, or even have any reason to actually care about. Players/customers have zero ties to a product that they did absolutely nothing to help develop. The outrage comes from some weird sense of entitlement that absolute strangers are supposed to cater to outrageous whims of anonymous persons because of... reasons. To me, that is simply bizarre and grotesque.

It reminds me of when I was a little kid and would get mad when I died playing Super Mario Bros and had a tantrum and threw the controller at the screen. Yeah, I got mad, but I never once thought of threatening the life of Miyamoto's children. I didn't write to Nintendo Power saying I was going to murder everyone because The Adventures of Link wasn't the same game as Legend of Zelda, ya know?

Now, if you paid into a kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign for a game, and the end result is nothing how it was initially sold to you, yeah, you're entitled to be pissed off. But death threats? Having the SWAT team called to someone's house? All because you chose to spend a few bucks on something that wasn't even guaranteed to happen in the first place? That's ridiculous.

I agree that in some instances game companies/developers could handle criticism better, but I'm not talking about criticism. Criticism is usually meant to be constructive, and persons in a creative field should listen to criticism. This is about sociopathic hatred that is causing creative people to stop being creative.

Oh, I agree entirely. My point was more to say that this phenomena of rabid fandom is hurtful to both fans and developers - the latter for obvious reasons, and the former, because it only enforcers and creates an idea of conflict between fans and creators, which, if there are "suits" about the developers, lets them shut off discussions with a wave of PR wand.

In other words, this sociopathic hatred, as you put it, is a poison to both sides, which is the worst thing about it.

I think the "death threat" angle is vastly overblown these days.

People say stupid things, it's not an actual threat. But today we are hyperventilating over every possible thing. That's the real problem - overreacting.

And people spend $60 on a game these days, even more so in the case of MMORPGs. People can be upset when they don't feel they get their money's worth.

I think the problem today is that game companies feel they can ship any old piece of crap and deserve $60 for it.

A company is not entitled to be able to make millions of dollars selling games. If they can't earn it by making products people want, then they have to understand that people will be upset with them, and eventually their business will suffer.

Quote from: JeremyR;683357I think the "death threat" angle is vastly overblown these days.

People say stupid things, it's not an actual threat. But today we are hyperventilating over every possible thing. That's the real problem - overreacting.

And people spend $60 on a game these days, even more so in the case of MMORPGs. People can be upset when they don't feel they get their money's worth.

I think the problem today is that game companies feel they can ship any old piece of crap and deserve $60 for it.

A company is not entitled to be able to make millions of dollars selling games. If they can't earn it by making products people want, then they have to understand that people will be upset with them, and eventually their business will suffer.

The counterpoint to that is that people should do a little research before they buy games, rather than impulse purchasing and then offering death threats when they don't feel like they got their money's worth.

Acceptable response to buying a game and then not liking it: "I am never spending money on that guy's crap AGAIN."

Unacceptable response to buying a game and then not liking it: "You cheated me with this crap, so I'm going to come to your house, cut off your cat's head and stuff it in your mailbox, you prick!"

Personally, I make few impulse purchases, and when I do, I suck it up if it's not worth it because it's on me for not doing the research first.

Games have always been around 60 bucks. NES games, SNES games, Genesis games, Playstation, on and on and on - 60 bucks.

These are people making threats over games that haven't come out yet, and which they haven't spent any money on.

Regardless of that, if you get that angry over a game that you spent, and let's face it, an inconsequential amount of money on, because you were too fucking lazy and stupid to read a couple reviews, then you're an idiot. Oh, 60 bucks? It was either buying that game, or paying rent that month, right? Give me a break.

Silly internet threats happen all the time and are no big deal. It becomes a big deal when someone posts your home address and your kid's elementary school and your phone number online for the express purpose of malicious harassment. If you can't see the difference, perhaps you're part of the problem.

I concur with everloss.

Dismissing this kind of shit as 'just what the internet does' is enabling behavior. Threats, slander, and harassment are not OK. Ever.

But it's increasingly becoming the rule of mob where gaming is concerned, and I really am sick enough of it that I start thinking I'd be better off employing my talents as far away from gaming as I can get, somewhere where I can write and no one will even see my name on the thing, like screenwriting.

Whether it's SJWs trying to hound Desborough out of the hobby entirely or slandering all of Numenara on one overinterpreted monster entry, to shitty Korean rap fans ruining Tablo's career over a made up charge, to dickhead homophobes and manchildren sending threats to a games writer about her fucking children over a gay sex scene and one comment in an interview, it's becoming a hideous scene to be creative in, and I sometimes consider whether I even want to be anymore.

The Internet mob war is rapidly, I suspect, creating what intellectual freedom lawyers call a 'chilling effect,' and of course, that's exactly what they want.

The only reason I haven't quit yet is because I've no intention of giving in to terrorists.

Quote from: JeremyR;683357I think the "death threat" angle is vastly overblown these days.

People say stupid things, it's not an actual threat. But today we are hyperventilating over every possible thing. That's the real problem - overreacting.

In the vast majority of cases, yes, it's nothing but words on a monitor.

However, it is *not uncommon* at all for game developers to actually have people come to the physical offices of the company and threaten them.

It's not every day.  It's not the vast majority of the "death threats" and the like on the internet.  But it happens.  Again, this is first hand knowledge.

How acceptable internet "death threats" should be is a separate topic, but don't doubt for a second that in some cases this does escalate to actual, real-world issues.

I'd also suggest that it's a bit easier to dismiss something as idle words on a monitor, when it's not directed at you, and your family, and including your home address.