Quote from: Ladybird;681322Dude, if Jay Little is frogmarching you to DTRPG and forcing you to download the betas, call the fucking cops on him!

More seriously regarding paytesting, remember that you do also get a credit for the cost of the beta to apply against the final game (Or rather, the PDF). So it's really more like a down-payment or pre-order.

Buyer beware though, with any paytesting / advance access, you're not getting a finalised product, and if you want that you should be waiting for the full release.

That credit you get, how much is it? 30 dollars? And does it apply if you don't want the pdf?

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;681718That credit you get, how much is it? 30 dollars? And does it apply if you don't want the pdf?

However much the file costs, and only against the PDF from dtrpg or rpgnow, is the general offer.

Haven't bought into it, because I'd want the hardback.

Quote from: Ladybird;681728However much the file costs, and only against the PDF from dtrpg or rpgnow, is the general offer.

Haven't bought into it, because I'd want the hardback.

Yeah, it's not very convincing. Why not allow for the credit to be spent on the hard copy as well?

Not that I'm at all interested in the game anyway. I don't even like what I've seen of the artwork. It would be cool if we could have a fun new Star Wars game, but this one isn't it.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;681737Yeah, it's not very convincing. Why not allow for the credit to be spent on the hard copy as well?

It's probably locked to one vendor due to the hassle of administrating coupons. With the hardcopy betas, you got nothing towards the final game.

Look, if the deal isn't for you, don't buy it, I know I'm not. But there's no deception going on here - it's all in the open as to what you get and how, nobody can get ripped off unless they just don't read the offer (And in that case, they deserve to get ripped off).

I didn't say there was deception.  I said FFG was greedy.  You can be openly and honestly greedy.  

Charging for beta rules for an "open" playtest is scummy for two reasons.  First of all, it ensures that FFG brings in revenue irrespective of the quality of their game.  If 10,000 people drop $30 on the beta but hate the game and refuse to buy the finished product, FFG still has taken their money.  Secondly (and more importantly), it bastardizes the concept of the open playtest.  The purpose of the open playtest is to offer the game to all sorts of players to get their feedback and refine the game's design.  However, charging for the playtest ensures that only those with a marked interest in the game are given access to the beta, thus ensuring a narrowed scope of playtesting (a closed open playtest).

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;683624I didn't say there was deception.  I said FFG was greedy.  You can be openly and honestly greedy.  

What you would call "greedy", I would call "business sense"...

QuoteFirst of all, it ensures that FFG brings in revenue irrespective of the quality of their game.  If 10,000 people drop $30 on the beta but hate the game and refuse to buy the finished product, FFG still has taken their money.

...for this reason. And it also minimizes the risks of printing all those expensive hardbacks.

But also, if you buy the $30 PDF before launch and don't like it... well, at least you didn't spend $50. And nobody is forcing you to buy this! There's no advantage given to you if you do so. I'm not buying it.

QuoteSecondly (and more importantly), it bastardizes the concept of the open playtest.  The purpose of the open playtest is to offer the game to all sorts of players to get their feedback and refine the game's design.  However, charging for the playtest ensures that only those with a marked interest in the game are given access to the beta, thus ensuring a narrowed scope of playtesting (a closed open playtest).

It seems pretty clear that FFG aren't interested in doing open playtests any more. This certainly isn't one; the actual playtesting will have been closed. Maybe good reporting from the paytesting will get you and your group into the next set of real playtests, I don't know how their procedures work.

But I think it's worth noting that nobody else has gone this way.

Star Wars is a license to print money, period. Doesn't surprise me in the least they ask fans to pay for pre-release privileges, such as doing work that other people would normally be paid to do (play-testing). Weren't the first company to take advantage of rabid fans, won't be the last.

That said, as an outsider to the rabid fandom, it looks like a pretty greedy thing to do. But get while the getting is good, I say. Someone is going to part a fool with their money anyway.

Quote from: Opaopajr;683950Star Wars is a license to print money, period. Doesn't surprise me in the least they ask fans to pay for pre-release privileges, such as doing work that other people would normally be paid to do (play-testing). Weren't the first company to take advantage of rabid fans, won't be the last.

That said, as an outsider to the rabid fandom, it looks like a pretty greedy thing to do. But get while the getting is good, I say. Someone is going to part a fool with their money anyway.

It's not pretty greedy, it's honest pure greed aimed at milking the, as you put it, rabid fandom.

And I mean come on, 30 bucks* for a PDF? What are they smoking, especially considering you need to pick up the funny dice anyway.


*Yes, everyone's free to set their prices. But at the same time - if you drive the price of a virtual media too high, you are basically risking to turn a potential customer into a pirate. The question is, which balance's the bigger one.

Quote from: Opaopajr;683950Star Wars is a license to print money, period. Doesn't surprise me in the least they ask fans to pay for pre-release privileges, such as doing work that other people would normally be paid to do (play-testing). Weren't the first company to take advantage of rabid fans, won't be the last.

That said, as an outsider to the rabid fandom, it looks like a pretty greedy thing to do. But get while the getting is good, I say. Someone is going to part a fool with their money anyway.

I'd dispute the "license to print money" part.  Having watched the haters swarm over SWTOR, the biggest line there has come from the head of Activision, Bobby Kotick, before the SWTOR launch back in late 2011:  "Lucas is going to be the principal beneficiary of the success of Star Wars," Kotick explained at the event. "We've been in business with Lucas for a long time and the economics will always accrue to the benefit of Lucas, so I don't really understand how the economics work for Electronic Arts. If you look at the history of the people investing in an MMO and achieving success, it's a small number."

(From Ars Technica.)

Well that's bordering a topic on whether the MMORPG craze is having a normal dip in popularity contraction or has gone into popped bubble free fall.

Star Wars and Star Trek during the height of the CCG bubble raked in money good, and often over other games due to brand name recognition. Once things popped they lingered and eventually migrated to LCG or card-driven boardgame. But even with multiple lawsuits flying around Star Trek sucked up enough cash to give good fight during the mid-90s bubble pop.

Suffice it to say lowered expectations due to market trends is understandable. But even in such hard times there's an insane buffer of fans begging you to part them from their money. Other projects halt in the face of such economy; these brands just readjust profit projections. Would that they could others have the same fortune.

Quote from: Opaopajr;683997Well that's bordering a topic on whether the MMORPG craze is having a normal dip in popularity contraction or has gone into popped bubble free fall.

EA's mistake (And a lot of publishers have made the same mistake) is thinking that Number One MMO is the position they have to be in to make money. And that's stupid; Blizzard have poured over a billion dollars into Warcraft. Going up against that is pissing money away.

The spot you want to be in, is gunning for being Numbers Two Through Ten MMO. That's where the real money is; you save loads on development costs, for solidly profitable revenue numbers.

Quote from: Opaopajr;683997Well that's bordering a topic on whether the MMORPG craze is having a normal dip in popularity contraction or has gone into popped bubble free fall.

Star Wars and Star Trek during the height of the CCG bubble raked in money good, and often over other games due to brand name recognition. Once things popped they lingered and eventually migrated to LCG or card-driven boardgame. But even with multiple lawsuits flying around Star Trek sucked up enough cash to give good fight during the mid-90s bubble pop.

Suffice it to say lowered expectations due to market trends is understandable. But even in such hard times there's an insane buffer of fans begging you to part them from their money. Other projects halt in the face of such economy; these brands just readjust profit projections. Would that they could others have the same fortune.

I personally think that the MMO "bubble" wasn't much of a bubble at all, just that a lot of gamers who ordinarily wouldn't be the target for MMOs got sucked into WoW, and they left when real life (and F2P MMOs) intervened.  Well, having Activision and/or Ghostcrawler take over from Wrath onward probably didn't help, because he's been in charge through their plateau and slow decline without doing anything to successfully halt said decline.

Still, I think that while Star Wars has that brand recognition out there, the real money that FFG is making from the license is the X-Wing minis game, because they've been going like gangbusters trying to keep up with the demand.  I sometimes wonder if the SW RPG was an afterthought to obtaining the license, because they had X-Wing and the LCG in development long before they announced Edge of the Empire.

Oh, the RPG is most definitely an afterthought. There's nowhere near the money in RPGs as there is in just about everything else gamewise. The money in whoever does Star Wars card sleeves probably dwarfs FF's current RPG sales -- by a 1d6 factor or something. Literally stupid levels of profit in hot licenses.