Quote from: Kyle AaronYes, but the price of rice is connected to the price of wheat and maize. It's like how when the oil price hoiks up, coal and natural gas jump up, too - because you can substitute the one for the other in many applications. So too with food.

We want biofuels so maize goes up in price. So people stop planting wheat and soybeans, and plant maize. Now wheat and soybean production went down, so their price goes up. And so on. It's all connected.


The Western subsidies are the main thing, but the insistence on Third World countries removing tariffs and subsidies is the other. We get to have have protectionism, they don't - that's our version of a "free market."

It reminds me of the old joke which is both racist and anti-racist. "How do you stop a nigger from drowning? Take your foot off his neck." The best thing the West can do for the Third World is to take its foot off their necks.

Indeed, for much of the West belief in free markets ends at the border.

Quote from: Kyle AaronAlso, Ian should stop speaking sense, he'll ruin his comical reputation.

I beg your pardon?

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneAs someone whose witnessed first hand what the "market" did for utilities after the deregulation craze, you'll forgive me if my faith in the magical powers of the Great Capitilist in the Sky is less than solid.

I think you put your (sc)air quotes around the wrong words.

Quote from: James J SkachWatch the market take care of all three. How fast remains to be seen. The faster, the better, IMHO. But I'd be loathe to have it happen in any way other than the market forcing people to make these choices.

It's the market that got us into this mess in the first place.  It is just accelerating the problem by continuing to push consumption and waste and will continue to do so if left unchecked.

Quote from: Kyle AaronThe best thing the West can do for the Third World is to take its foot off their necks.

But if we do that Democracy will never be allowed to take route and the terrorists will have won.  (and those ignorant third-world farmers won't get the benefit of Monsanto's seed technology)

Quote from: walkerpIt's the market that got us into this mess in the first place.  It is just accelerating the problem by continuing to push consumption and waste and will continue to do so if left unchecked.

Which market? How is the oil price rising, hell, any of the prices we're discussing, pushing consumption and waste?

Anyone who doesn't react negatively to prices rising are either ignorant or rich beyond caring. In the first case, they get what they deserve. In that latter I hope to be some day.

Quote from: James J SkachAnyone who doesn't react negatively to prices rising are either ignorant or rich beyond caring. In the first case, they get what they deserve. In that latter I hope to be some day.

This is the disconnect that I am seeing in my neck of the woods.  Everyone is bitching about the price of gas, but nobody is actually doing anything about it.  They seem to be driving just as much as they ever did, just complaining more about it.  So I suspect that the price really isn't that high yet for most North Americans (not to discount those for whom it really is hurting).  In effect, we are still "rich beyond caring".

Quote from: James J SkachI think you put your (sc)air quotes around the wrong words.

They're in exactly the right place.

There is no market, just people.  People with all their attached flaws and merits, and contrary to the magical thinking of some capitalists, those people do not always behave in the fashion we wish them to or think is the most logical.

I continue to be mystified at how some people can look at history and still buy this kind of rhetoric.

Quote from: walkerpThis is the disconnect that I am seeing in my neck of the woods.  Everyone is bitching about the price of gas, but nobody is actually doing anything about it.  They seem to be driving just as much as they ever did, just complaining more about it.  So I suspect that the price really isn't that high yet for most North Americans (not to discount those for whom it really is hurting).  In effect, we are still "rich beyond caring".

Yup.  I don't listen to people bitch as they go on about doing what they always do. Must not hurt enough yet - or you're a spoiled little brat who likes to complain and hope that someone else takes care of your problem for you.

It's why I....

BTW - standing around the water cooler saying "Wow, gas sure has gotten crazy high, hasn't it?" I do not put in the category of bitching. To me it's people saying something like "The market isn't working - the government has to fix it!!!"

Which is why I don't see it so much as a disconnect. People like to bitch. It's when they still want to drive to the store three times in a week and buy cheap meat and milk on separate trips, and then claim the government needs to do something about the price of gas, corn, and milk that I see a disconnect.

Quote from: walkerpThis is the disconnect that I am seeing in my neck of the woods.  Everyone is bitching about the price of gas, but nobody is actually doing anything about it.

Of course not.  The whole "globalised economy" is predicated on internal combustion transportation, which is in turn predicated on petroleum.  Currently there's no viable alternative without significant -- and possibly catastrophic -- disruption to the inter-dependent world economy.  Effectively, nobody's doing anything about it because there's no real option but to carry on.  Which is why, Jim, I find your reassurances about "the market" correcting itself discomforting.

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneThere is no market, just people.  People with all their attached flaws and merits, and contrary to the magical thinking of some capitalists, those people do not always behave in the fashion we wish them to or think is the most logical.

Neat! Magic!

Umm...you do realize that I wouldn't, as free market person, say that I want people to behave in a fashion that I want...right? Right? If not, then perhaps you really have been talking to the "Magic Capitalists."

Quote from: J ArcaneI continue to be mystified at how some people can look at history and still buy this kind of rhetoric.

I agree - where do you come up with some of this stuff?

I'm hoping this current crisis will see a rise in sail as a viable transportation method for high-bulk, low-priority cargos, over the next few years. Coal, grain, there's all sorts of things that could be safely and easily transported across the oceans on windjammers, as we used to do even up to World War II.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOf course not.  The whole "globalised economy" is predicated on internal combustion transportation, which is in turn predicated on petroleum.  Currently there's no viable alternative without significant -- and possibly catastrophic -- disruption to the inter-dependent world economy.  Effectively, nobody's doing anything about it because there's no real option but to carry on.  Which is why, Jim, I find your reassurances about "the market" correcting itself discomforting.

!i!

It presumes there's not enough oil for a long slow soft landing. The next great war that threatens US territory directly will be the one for the oil we've refused to drill - Alaska, Gulf, etc.

It's a long time for that. As someone (was it you??) that pointed out the decline will take centuries and we won't see it in the way we think we will. It's not all going to fall apart on June 14th, 2018 or something (My 52nd birthday! I hope). The population will shift, it will move closer to work, it will use less energy as best it can. People will move away from the coasts as the water rises because the earth is warming, even as we use less fuel. People who owned and farmed their own land (all over the world) will be gobbled up by large corporations - and the former owners will either work it for them or abandon it for a job in the city. Those same corporations will clear cut any arable land they can for more supply because people, as crazy as it sounds, still want to drive cars and eat food. Some people will be hurt catastrophically, others will barely notice. Life ain't fair that way - but it will go on...

Hence, no Apocalypse as was put forth in the OP....

Quote from: Last KnightI'm hoping this current crisis will see a rise in sail as a viable transportation method for high-bulk, low-priority cargos, over the next few years. Coal, grain, there's all sorts of things that could be safely and easily transported across the oceans on windjammers, as we used to do even up to World War II.

Don't forget the rail, which, in the US, was struck a virtual death-blow by the rise of the Interstate highway (and the construction lobby that supported it).  They may not be perfect, but trains are more efficient and safer than long-haul trucking.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDon't forget the rail, which, in the US, was struck a virtual death-blow by the rise of the Interstate highway (and the construction lobby that supported it).  They may not be perfect, but trains are more efficient and safer than long-haul trucking.

!i!

Hmmm...we have Nuclear Subs....wonder if we could have Nuclear Trains....