Quote from: Dumarest;988222I'm going to have to disagree with you there because I constantly see old copies of Basic and AD&D for sale cheap, and have seen them for sale cheap everywhere from used book stores to garage sales for ages.

The exact issue was both price (for the stuff priced as collector's items) and availability (having to go on the used market like ebay). For some products, like the ones you mentioned, the issue was availability. For others it was price for some it was both.

But... But... yeah I hear you about availability. But it was just inconvenient enough with just enough of a bad rep that the average hobbyists didn't bother compared to the alternative. The alternative being every other RPGs that has current support and in distribution. For a person who was bound and determined to find an older game it wasn't a big hurdle but it reduced the number of causal hobbyists willing to give a classic edition a try.

And finally if you need extra copies to sell or give away, you couldn't do that with the originals. Most places had a finite supply and no way of getting more once it was bought up. Plus there that pesky copyright issue about making copies.

The Retro-clones allowed the classic edition to revive to the point where they are like any other RPG that is not in the top five. A small base of hobbyists that are fans with products coming out every quarter. That was initial goal of OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, and the rest. And by all measure that been a resounding success. Now what happens is whatever the hobbyists decides wants to happen.

Ask any OSR publishers about the nuts and bolts of distribution and sustaining a customer base and the answers will be a variation of the above. Now the fact that the original PDFs are readily available and some in PoD form is just icing on the cake.

Quote from: Dumarest;988222I'm going to have to disagree with you there because I constantly see old copies of Basic and AD&D for sale cheap, and have seen them for sale cheap everywhere from used book stores to garage sales for ages.

I am going to take a guess that you live in urban North America, correct? Now, the farther you go from that, or the farther your tastes diverge from the Basic and Expert Moldvays and Mentzers, plus core AD&D and maybe UA, or the 2e reprints, the less and less frequent successful garage sale finds are going to be.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;988229Your experience is not indicative of the gaming world.  And neither are mine.

Your response has nothing to do with what I said. It's also wrong. But that's par for the course for Christopher Brady.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;988233I take it you live in urban North America, am I right?

Yes, no shortage of D&D books here.

And if the point is that they are hard to get out in the boonies, that may or may not be true but then so are the clones.

Quote from: Dumarest;988235And if the point is that they are hard to get out in the boonies, that may or may not be true but then so are the clones.

Yes, but if they are hard to find out in the boonies (or outside US/Canada), then you go online, to e-bay with the expensive, possibly worn old books, or you buy a brand new, sometimes free or cost-of-printing retroclone that might even have some change you were looking for.

Quote from: Biscuitician;987597I'm tempted: the pdf is ten bucks on their website, which seems suspiciously cheap making me think I've misunderstood what they are selling

I am 99% sure it's the full game/PDF so I am assuming it's a "gateway drug" reasoning for selling it at that pricepoint ($9.99 USD). Personally I think that's a great idea. Do the same with the 5EPHB.

Quote from: Biscuitician;987709Took a look. I'll give it a pass. If they are selling a 500page book and can't be bothered to include any kind of bestiary they can fuck off. Ridiculous. Plus the backstory is lazy shit. The gap? Fuck right off.

I agree about the missing bestiary, I bought the Dead Tree and thought the same. But I also knew, mostly what I was getting into with a Paizo book. The forthcoming Monster Book isn't very big either which seems odd to me. Granted you can use any 3E monster book for Starfinder, it still sucks not having a big, meaty, dedicated Space-Monster Manual.

Quote from: Dumarest;988235Yes, no shortage of D&D books here.

And if the point is that they are hard to get out in the boonies, that may or may not be true but then so are the clones.

Retro-clones solve three problems:

1. Availability, both electronically and in print.  Until a couple of years ago, it was impossible to legally obtain electronic copies of D&D books.  Also, as others have pointed out, unused print copies of BECMI or AD&D 1E or what have you are not always easy to come by.

2. Retro-clones tend to be better presented and edited, and more readable than the original material.

3. Retro-clones add and/or change things to the game to make it more relatable to a modern RPG audience, such as ascending AC and/or a unified mechanic.

Quote from: Celestial;988254Retro-clones solve three problems:

1. Availability, both electronically and in print.  Until a couple of years ago, it was impossible to legally obtain electronic copies of D&D books.  Also, as others have pointed out, unused print copies of BECMI or AD&D 1E or what have you are not always easy to come by.

2. Retro-clones tend to be better presented and edited, and more readable than the original material.

3. Retro-clones add and/or change things to the game to make it more relatable to a modern RPG audience, such as ascending AC and/or a unified mechanic.

What are you talking about?  According to Dumarest, it's ALWAYS been easy to get legal copies of older editions!  Because his city is representative of the ENTIRE WORLD!

Quote from: Dumarest;988234Your response has nothing to do with what I said. It's also wrong. But that's par for the course for Christopher Brady.

Well, Captain Out of Touch, I hate to break it to you, but it actually does.  I live in a major Canadian town, but unfortunately, trying to get an older edition of D&D even at second hand shops are difficult.  But according to you, I'm wrong.  But hey, don't let the fact that anecdotes are not fact bother you, pumpkin.

I know you can convert pathfinder races and play space elves, but why not just do this as the default? I don't really understand all the bizarre races they incldued as the main character races in what is intended as Pathfinder in Space? Instead of not-the-eldar you can play a space mouse or insect man.

I don't know their specific reasoning, but if Shadowrun is any indication, some people like that approach and some people really really hate it.

Shadowrun is for people who are afraid to play in cyberpunk settings without their tolkien pastiche blankie.

See? Right there. Anyone want to guess that when they were making Starfinder, they were afraid of hearing "Starfinder is for people who are afraid to play in sci fi/space settings without their tolkien pastiche blankie?"

Quote from: Willie the Duck;988392I don't know their specific reasoning, but if Shadowrun is any indication, some people like that approach and some people really really hate it.

of course, but you're creating a space fantasy game called sarfinder when your primary audience knows you for your fantasy game called pathfinder. If their market research turned out that they didn't want a space fantasy-actual-fantasy game then weird

Quote from: Willie the Duck;988399See? Right there. Anyone want to guess that when they were making Starfinder, they were afraid of hearing "Starfinder is for people who are afraid to play in sci fi/space settings without their tolkien pastiche blankie?"

I hope you're being sarcastic. Pathfinder shouldn't give a damn about what a non-fan like me thinks of that kind of setting. If they do, then they're oversensitive ninnies.