I don't have the cash to spend on it this week, but I did flip through it a few times at the store while playing X-Wing.
Anybody bought it and got an opinion? I noticed it had vehicle and starship sections. I didn't have time to dig into how fantasy technology and magic work.
Never seen Pathfinder or played it, but from what I understand it's D&D with a silly name, and while I'm not interested in elves and hobbits in Middle-earth, I'm even less interested in elves and hobbits in space. Let us know how you like it and why.
One of my least favorite systems, in one of my least favorite genres, by one of my least favorite companies. I'd sooner sign up for the Kick Starter "Watching Paint Dry" by that Skarka dude, or whatever his name is. Same money blown in the end, but less time wasted.
I picked it up. Just working my way though. I do like a nice looking book (and I like my DIY books as well). I'll say one of the things I did like was that the included standard races weren't Space elf, space dwarf, etc. I'm sure there may be a reskin factor to them, but at least it wasn't a straight adaption.
And, for those who do, the space elf, dwarf, gnome, etc are in the back of the book Appendix style.
#Meh
Quote from: Molotov;984978I picked it up. Just working my way though. I do like a nice looking book (and I like my DIY books as well). I'll say one of the things I did like was that the included standard races weren't Space elf, space dwarf, etc. I'm sure there may be a reskin factor to them, but at least it wasn't a straight adaption.
And, for those who do, the space elf, dwarf, gnome, etc are in the back of the book Appendix style.
Yeah. The magic and elves and stuff is very low key. If I didn't know beforehand, I would never have known that it was a space setting with magic and elves by flipping through the book.
It's like, it's set in the Pathfinder universe, but you have to dig to actually see it. I'm wondering how it would handle having the setting conceits (Golarion) pulled out.
I got really disillusioned with it really fast from the online talk. I would up putting my shipment back in the mail unopened and nothing I've heard since has made me regret it.
I am going to a local shop to look at it. White Star I think does everything I need but I like those cardboard pawns.
I just got back from playing Starfinder Society Scenario #1-00: Claim to Salvation (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9tsv) and had a fun time. There is a steep learning curve for spaceship combat but should get easier with practice. There were multiple roles (captain, pilot, gunner, engineer and scientist) each had something they could do during combat. I was the engineer and kept the shields up. The regular combat went quickly but we were a bunch of level 4 pre-gens beating up a bunch of Space Goblins. I have not bought the book yet, so can not give a full breakdown of the rules. From what I have seen, I will be enjoying it.
Quote from: Shawn Merrow;985117I just got back from playing Starfinder Society Scenario #1-00: Claim to Salvation (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9tsv) and had a fun time. There is a steep learning curve for spaceship combat but should get easier with practice. There were multiple roles (captain, pilot, gunner, engineer and scientist) each had something they could do during combat. I was the engineer and kept the shields up. The regular combat went quickly but we were a bunch of level 4 pre-gens beating up a bunch of Space Goblins. I have not bought the book yet, so can not give a full breakdown of the rules. From what I have seen, I will be enjoying it.
Cool. I will have to check that out.
I have to admit, when I want to do science fantasy space opera, I have d6 Star Wars to do it with. I don't have a lot of interest in Starfinder.
EDIT: This is ancillary to my post, but I find that as I get older I have less interest in playing games which are very time consuming with prep work. My tastes go for more simple systems because they take less time to prepare and play. Pathfinder, D&D 5e, and most other d20 games have just become too time consuming to keep my interest.
If i had fifty squids to spare I'd treat myself, but I'm shit sure the rules would displease me and the size of the book would be too much and the alien races look stupid.
I think i'd actually prefer Eldar, squats, orks - i mean space elves, space dwarves, and space orcs :D
Quote from: jeff37923;985119I have to admit, when I want to do science fantasy space opera, I have d6 Star Wars to do it with. I don't have a lot of interest in Starfinder.
EDIT: This is ancillary to my post, but I find that as I get older I have less interest in playing games which are very time consuming with prep work. My tastes go for more simple systems because they take less time to prepare and play. Pathfinder, D&D 5e, and most other d20 games have just become too time consuming to keep my interest.
Do you have d6 Space and supplements? I found stripping out the Star Wars material really made it easy to customise my own settings.
For me this is just another excuse to start a splat line. The Paizo books are pretty but the entire 3e book production line was crazy and the mechanics of it all.
Book 1 - Core
Book 1,000,000 - character customisation options for that essential excelsior character building on the 999,999 character option books that have gone before.
I don't mind a few new rules to build a setting feel but 90% of the 3e line were just tack on with a veneer of fluff.
Quote from: HorusArisen;985149For me this is just another excuse to start a splat line. The Paizo books are pretty but the entire 3e book production line was crazy and the mechanics of it all.
Book 1 - Core
Book 1,000,000 - character customisation options for that essential excelsior character building on the 999,999 character option books that have gone before.
I don't mind a few new rules to build a setting feel but 90% of the 3e line were just tack on with a veneer of fluff.
I doubt anyone's doubting that!
I wish some of these companies would find a better method. I've got a ton of books for Edge of the Empire that are never going to be used that I'm not carrying around just to play the game.
I did a quick pass-through of the book. The one thing I don't like is the Resolve Point mechanic. I despise player currency mechanics. I have no issue with character currency points (ki points or grit points). Just hate player currency points. Both from the standpoint as a GM and player. But I do love the PF system so I will do a thorough read at some point.
I'm not all that mad on PF. So, I doubt it will appeal to me. But I'd say it's a solid release from what I've read.
And you can really go wrong with d6!
Quote from: HorusArisen;985148Do you have d6 Space and supplements? I found stripping out the Star Wars material really made it easy to customise my own settings.
Just FYI to anyone interested, D6 Space (and all the other D6 games) are easy to get online for free. I think they were legal, too.
Quote from: Dumarest;985276Just FYI to anyone interested, D6 Space (and all the other D6 games) are easy to get online for free. I think they were legal, too.
Yeah, free and legal - http://www.rpgnow.com/browse/pub/468/West-End-Games?filters=0_0_0_0_0&test_epoch=0
Quote from: Ulairi;985069I am going to a local shop to look at it. White Star I think does everything I need but I like those cardboard pawns.
Hm, I wonder if Starfinder adventures could be run in White Star, the way I run Pathfinder adventures in 5e or Classic D&D. Presumably there will be a bunch...
I picked it up and I've flipped through it today. I'm not sure I really get it. It's obviously bsed on PF, but there are a lot of little differences. If you think you know PF (or PF from a few years ago, I stopped following it in 2014), look really closely because much is changed. I don't know if it's for the better or not.
It'll appeal to Pathfinder fans I am sure, but doesn't particularly meet any niche to appeal to anyone else. There are lots of scifi games out there; I'm perfectly happy with Traveller, myself.
Quote from: HappyDaze;985518If you think you know PF (or PF from a few years ago, I stopped following it in 2014), look really closely because much is changed.
There's this smell of PF 2nd Ed in the air, don't you think?
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;985570There's this smell of PF 2nd Ed in the air, don't you think?
There has been for a while, what with the Unbound (?) class books that came out. The problem is that people moved to Pathfinder because they wanted to keep playing 3.x. If you make Pathfinder 2E too much "not 3.x" then it'll fail.
EDIT: To answer the original post, Starfinder, like Pathfinder before it, is not for me. I will play under protest if my group wants to give it a go, but I will not be the one running the game.
A lot of "in the industry" folks are saying that if StarFinder isn't a big hit that Paizo won't last. Apparently their cash flow is pretty terrible so. So, for their sake, I hope it succeeds.
I looked at it at my FLGS and....it's not for me. I usually would buy it even just to have it sit on my shelf but with DFRPG coming out the same week and my physical box getting here in about a month...can't justify it. Also, I don't like Patfinder and while it is different from Pathfinder it still suffers from the same things I hate about Pathfinder/3.x
Quote from: Ulairi;985625A lot of "in the industry" folks are saying that if StarFinder isn't a big hit that Paizo won't last. Apparently their cash flow is pretty terrible so. So, for their sake, I hope it succeeds.
Huh. I thought Paizo was doing pretty well. They seem to have sold enough modules back in the day to justify the expense of publishing a 3rd ed variant under the OGL... Did something happen?
Doesn't sound like there's much to recommend it except for being based on Pathfinder... IF you like Pathfinder and don't want to learn/play a different set of rules for scifi-ish games.
I was never a big fan of Pathfinder because it just had too many details to deal with, but I was excited to see a major company creating a D&D-like scifi RPG. At least, until I got the FREE RPG DAY booklet and it had zero actual game content in it, instead it had some vague hand-wave setting stuff. That preview just sort of turned me off and killed my enthusiasm for the system, since most quick-start RPGs give enough info to allow for some actual game play and this didn't seem to do that.
I haven't actually seen a copy and haven't played it, but I had high hopes at the start.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;985659Huh. I thought Paizo was doing pretty well. They seem to have sold enough modules back in the day to justify the expense of publishing a 3rd ed variant under the OGL... Did something happen?
What justified the expense of publishing the 3.x variant I think was more that WoTC screwed the pooch with 4E more than the success of the adventure paths. I do know that in Milwaukee the Pathfinder Society events are not nearly as crowded as they were 3 or 4 years ago. They've also reached critical mass when it comes to their more expensive hardbacks and I wouldn't be surprised if the adventure subscriptions have fallen off a cliff.
Resolve points look an awful lot like healing surges from 4E. The irony.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;985659Huh. I thought Paizo was doing pretty well. They seem to have sold enough modules back in the day to justify the expense of publishing a 3rd ed variant under the OGL... Did something happen?
Part of it may have to do with their Organized Play program. Paizo declared that there must be a minimum number of participants for an event and money being spent. Right afterwards, the local group just disintegrated.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;985659Huh. I thought Paizo was doing pretty well. They seem to have sold enough modules back in the day to justify the expense of publishing a 3rd ed variant under the OGL... Did something happen?
Too much product and not enough customers. I saw a blog post from a game shop owner a year or two back saying that his shop's TTRPG revenue was split 50-50 D&D vs Pathfinder...except he had like 10x the Pathfinder SKUs generating the same revenue. And I think I saw somewhere else that Paizo is just selling new product to the same people over and over (think about it, how many people really need a dozen Player Companion books?).
So is paizo dying? I have a friend who limed pathfinder.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;984844I don't have the cash to spend on it this week, but I did flip through it a few times at the store while playing X-Wing.
Anybody bought it and got an opinion? I noticed it had vehicle and starship sections. I didn't have time to dig into how fantasy technology and magic work.
just finished my 1st read through and love it so far.
though i likely will not get a chance to run it until after dragoncon
Quote from: Schwartzwald;986255So is paizo dying? I have a friend who limed pathfinder.
nah there doing fine
from what i have heard starfinder is doing vastly better then they had hoped for and there core pathfinder sales are doing great.
i do not think that they are in any danger of collapsing anytime soon
Quote from: Cave Bear;985745Resolve points look an awful lot like healing surges from 4E. The irony.
Which could explain my *immediate* dislike of them.
Resolve points just seem like another name for Hero Points imo. If not I'm glad if it does the same as Healing Surgrs in 4E. No need for someone to have to play the Healbot.
Quote from: sureshot;986361Resolve points just seem like another name for Hero Points imo. If not I'm glad if it does the same as Healing Surgrs in 4E. No need for someone to have to play the Healbot.
Yeah...why have a cleric in the party.....
Healing surges are the worst. They completely ruin the game and make it much harder for a referee to remove from the game because usually the idea of characters having them is built into the DNA.
Quote from: Tetsubo;986352Which could explain my *immediate* dislike of them.
When/if you do a YouTube review would you mind posting it here? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;986255I have a friend who limed pathfinder.
He should try lime on tilapia. It's even better and a lot less cullolose.
Quote from: jeff37923;985752Part of it may have to do with their Organized Play program. Paizo declared that there must be a minimum number of participants for an event and money being spent. Right afterwards, the local group just disintegrated.
I just looked at the Strategicon Gateway Convention schedule here in LA. It used to be completely dominated by Pathfinder on the schedule. Now? I'd say it's 10-1 5e to PF. Shockingly few PF games.
No matter what excuse people make about most of their books selling through Paizo directly or digitally or whatever to excuse the poor public sales numbers we know about, there is no excuse I can think of to explain the massive drop off in people playing PF at a local LA convention. That's a sure sign interest is waning, no matter how many, "We're doing fine, we're all fine here, how are you?" statements from Paizo.
Sounds like they Shadowrunne'd Traveller. My condolences.
Quote from: Dumarest;986388He should try lime on tilapia. It's even better and a lot less cullolose.
If you're going to make fun of someone's spelling errors, maybe you shouldn't make any of your own.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: WanderingMonster;986415If you're going to make fun of someone's spelling errors, maybe you shouldn't make any of your own.
Layers of irony here......it's like the pun game....once you start one you gotta keep the chain going.....(or put another way I bet the first misspelling was accidental but I am certain the second misspelling was intentional)
Anyway I have Starfinder. Group is excited for it....but I have to admit, I am not feeling it*. It's just Paizo trying to capture the lightning in a bottle that is the Pathfinder experience, but in space. I would probably be a lot more excited if it was a D&D 5E compatible product, but the sheer effort of wading through this to reorient myself on Pathfinder rules --but with a tiwst-- is just proving too much for me to bear. Pretty book, though. But for me I just say stick with White Star. Or discover White Star and join the Void Lords!!!!
*I think Pathfinder fans will love it though, as it provides them a new experience in the same comfort zone they are used to.
Pathfinder's going to die by attrition. There's not really another possible future for it. For a while, there was some real competition just because 5e didn't offer a lot of options, but every book 5e adds reduces the marginal appeal Pathfinder has. (I for one have an appetite for no more than about three monster manuals and two books' worth of player options.)
Quote from: WanderingMonster;986415If you're going to make fun of someone's spelling errors, maybe you shouldn't make any of your own.
Irony beyond you , eh?
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;986451Pathfinder's going to die by attrition. There's not really another possible future for it. For a while, there was some real competition just because 5e didn't offer a lot of options, but every book 5e adds reduces the marginal appeal Pathfinder has. (I for one have an appetite for no more than about three monster manuals and two books' worth of player options.)
My understanding is that PF still has serious play outside the English-speaking world, while 5e is barely making inroads three years in. There might be life left in that old vehicle for a while. ...Now if they run into the old 'everyone who is going to play the game already has everything they need' situation, then they're just as screwed as anyone else.
Quote from: Biscuitician;985146If i had fifty squids to spare I'd treat myself, but I'm shit sure the rules would displease me and the size of the book would be too much and the alien races look stupid.
I think i'd actually prefer Eldar, squats, orks - i mean space elves, space dwarves, and space orcs :D
Now that you mention it, I don't think I've been introduced to a game with aliens in it that didn't feel stupid. Star Wars and Star Trek games, well I was introduced to the races on screen and just roll with it. Something from a novel? Well, I got to learn about them in a hopefully good book, and don't mind playing them in a game (GURPS: Uplift was a popular game for us in the 90s, back when my group could stomach that level of game complexity). But give me a new sci-fi roleplaying book, and it is populated with Glarghldar, Fringg, and Varlas, even if there isn't anything specifically more silly about them than things I take for granted in RPGs (say, thri kreen, displacer beasts, and color-coded dragons), I'm going to say, "that's stupid." I wonder if it's something about my taste in sci-fi vs. fantasy.
It seems like a solidly build Science Fantasy game in the class-based vein.
The only major thing I don't like is they continue with D&D/Pathfinder style "wealth equals quality of combat gear" economy, which to me shuts down too many adventure design avenues (you work for Duke Leto? He's rich, plasma cannons for everyone!) and makes it feel a bit too artificial.
Quote from: Dumarest;984970Never seen Pathfinder or played it, but from what I understand it's D&D with a silly name, and while I'm not interested in elves and hobbits in Middle-earth, I'm even less interested in elves and hobbits in space.
It is Science Fantasy, but elves and halflings aren't the default races. (Though if you do want a more shadowrunny translation, they are tucked away for you in an appendix in the back. One of the major design conceits of the game is that as many alien races as possible will be valid PC races.)
Quote from: Tetsubo;985169I did a quick pass-through of the book. The one thing I don't like is the Resolve Point mechanic. I despise player currency mechanics. I have no issue with character currency points (ki points or grit points).
How closely did you read Resolve Points? Because they are much closer to a generalized term for class resources like ki or grit points than any hero/luck/fate point sort of things. They do have some generalized uses, but they are more related to the character's perseverance than any "player currency".
Quote from: Willie the Duck;986558My understanding is that PF still has serious play outside the English-speaking world, while 5e is barely making inroads three years in. There might be life left in that old vehicle for a while. ...Now if they run into the old 'everyone who is going to play the game already has everything they need' situation, then they're just as screwed as anyone else.
Recapture the home market, then turn your guns on the foreign territories
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/localization
Quote from: fearsomepirate;986571Recapture the home market, then turn your guns on the foreign territories
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/localization
Huh. Well, I guess they started down the road I thought they needed to start down. Won't pretend to know if it is early, late, or right on time. I will be interested in seeing how successful they are.
I got my copy last night and skimmed through it.
I'll have more to say as I digest the tome. (50 gozillion pages of rules and no monsters...:P) But the first thing I noticed is that space fighters are pretty generic, and this has bugged me about many game systems with fighters and capital ships. I like my space fighters to come in many flavors and purposes. I'm sure it can be house ruled, but out of the box, it's still disappointing.
I actually like the idea of space fantasy. I suppose Mass Effect and especially the Guardians of the Galaxy movies are influencing me here. I can do something with this. I'm thinking very strongly of jettisioning the whole Golarion setting and doing my own thing with it, though.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;986579Huh. Well, I guess they started down the road I thought they needed to start down. Won't pretend to know if it is early, late, or right on time. I will be interested in seeing how successful they are.
The problem is PF's reason to exist is evaporating. Its three big pillars are:
1. It's D&D 3.x for anyone who hates the new version of D&D so much they'd rather play a house-ruled 3.x clone
2. It has a ton of reasonably high quality content available
3. Sheer inertia---switching to a new system is inconvenient
First pillar is crumbling due to 5e's success. 2nd pillar is still pretty strong, but it's not a real differentiator. Anyone can create a lot of content. As of now, there's a lot of good stuff from KP and WotC for 5e. 3rd is death by attrition. Note there's no unique "wow" factor. Nothing makes Pathfinder really special as an RPG. Starfinder might be a sustainable path because it potentially has a positive differentiator that can't really be replicated. AFAIK, nobody's successfully pulling of Science Fantasy right now, not in meaningful numbers.
Quote from: Mistwell;986407I just looked at the Strategicon Gateway Convention schedule here in LA. It used to be completely dominated by Pathfinder on the schedule. Now? I'd say it's 10-1 5e to PF. Shockingly few PF games.
No matter what excuse people make about most of their books selling through Paizo directly or digitally or whatever to excuse the poor public sales numbers we know about, there is no excuse I can think of to explain the massive drop off in people playing PF at a local LA convention. That's a sure sign interest is waning, no matter how many, "We're doing fine, we're all fine here, how are you?" statements from Paizo.
Well, there was a little something called 5th Edition ... :)
What
I'd be curious to know is how their AP sales are doing. I wouldn't be surprised if those have stayed fairly steady and people are just using them with 5E. I never thought the mechanics for their own sake were what was keeping PF going; I always figured the success was due to familiarity and support.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;986582The problem is PF's reason to exist is evaporating. Its three big pillars are:
1. It's D&D 3.x for anyone who hates the new version of D&D so much they'd rather play a house-ruled 3.x clone
2. It has a ton of reasonably high quality content available
3. Sheer inertia---switching to a new system is inconvenient
First pillar is crumbling due to 5e's success. 2nd pillar is still pretty strong, but it's not a real differentiator. Anyone can create a lot of content. As of now, there's a lot of good stuff from KP and WotC for 5e. 3rd is death by attrition. Note there's no unique "wow" factor. Nothing makes Pathfinder really special as an RPG. Starfinder might be a sustainable path because it potentially has a positive differentiator that can't really be replicated. AFAIK, nobody's successfully pulling of Science Fantasy right now, not in meaningful numbers.
How much of the hobby do you think goes for novelty? On the one hand, I see a lot of complaining in forums about the lack of an "evergreen" product, but PF is probably the closest thing to that ideal that I've seen among the big players in the industry.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;986586How much of the hobby do you think goes for novelty? On the one hand, I see a lot of complaining in forums about the lack of an "evergreen" product, but PF is probably the closest thing to that ideal that I've seen among the big players in the industry.
I think the hobby overall doesn't go for novelty, which is why it's almost entirely consumed by D&D and its clones, with everyone else fighting over table scraps. The reason new editions of D&D sell is that time makes the flaws and problems with the game's design increasingly apparent. Nobody buys the new edition because they've gotten bored with playing half-elf fighter as it currently is and want to see if the new version of the half-elf fighter has a cool new widget. They buy it because the last version was turning into a nightmare with all the bullshit that piled up in it, and the new version promises to fix the problems.
Hobbyists want to play D&D and for it to not be a giant pain in the ass to do so. They want to be able to find the shit they need to run the game they want to play, have it be reasonably priced, and have it be of reasonably good quality.
Quote from: Justin AlexanderThe vast majority of players will never GM. The majority of GMs will run the same system for years or even decades.
I will happily run 5e for a very, very long time.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;986590The majority of GMs will run the same system for years or even decades.
There I go thrown back into the minority... Wait, that's a superpower these days, right?
Quote from: fearsomepirate;986582The problem is PF's reason to exist is evaporating. Its three big pillars are:
1. It's D&D 3.x for anyone who hates the new version of D&D so much they'd rather play a house-ruled 3.x clone
2. It has a ton of reasonably high quality content available
3. Sheer inertia---switching to a new system is inconvenient
First pillar is crumbling due to 5e's success. 2nd pillar is still pretty strong, but it's not a real differentiator. Anyone can create a lot of content. As of now, there's a lot of good stuff from KP and WotC for 5e. 3rd is death by attrition. Note there's no unique "wow" factor. Nothing makes Pathfinder really special as an RPG. Starfinder might be a sustainable path because it potentially has a positive differentiator that can't really be replicated. AFAIK, nobody's successfully pulling of Science Fantasy right now, not in meaningful numbers.
I am a 5e fan, but I'd say PF differentiates from the competition by having a lot of excellent adventure authors working for them. They're so good I've run PF adventures in 5e.
I'm tempted: the pdf is ten bucks on their website, which seems suspiciously cheap making me think I've misunderstood what they are selling
Quote from: Ratman_tf;986581I got my copy last night and skimmed through it.
I'll have more to say as I digest the tome. (50 gozillion pages of rules and no monsters...:P) But the first thing I noticed is that space fighters are pretty generic, and this has bugged me about many game systems with fighters and capital ships. I like my space fighters to come in many flavors and purposes. I'm sure it can be house ruled, but out of the box, it's still disappointing.
I actually like the idea of space fantasy. I suppose Mass Effect and especially the Guardians of the Galaxy movies are influencing me here. I can do something with this. I'm thinking very strongly of jettisioning the whole Golarion setting and doing my own thing with it, though.
Well you know the more detailed ship construction is coming soon.
Quote from: Mistwell;987505I am a 5e fan, but I'd say PF differentiates from the competition by having a lot of excellent adventure authors working for them. They're so good I've run PF adventures in 5e.
That's the 2nd pillar. There are currently more high-quality adventures available for PF than D&D 5e. But as time wears on, the number of adventures for 5e is only going to rise.
Took a look. I'll give it a pass. If they are selling a 500page book and can't be bothered to include any kind of bestiary they can fuck off. Ridiculous. Plus the backstory is lazy shit. The gap? Fuck right off.
Quote from: Biscuitician;987709Took a look. I'll give it a pass. If they are selling a 500page book and can't be bothered to include any kind of bestiary they can fuck off. Ridiculous. Plus the backstory is lazy shit. The gap? Fuck right off.
This is based on Pathfinder. There are literally thousands of monsters out there. Many of which fit perfectly into a science-fantasy setting. Plus third party publishers are already producing Starfinder material. PLUS there is an alien book coming out in October from Paizo. I don't mind a separate monster book.
Quote from: Tetsubo;987713This is based on Pathfinder. There are literally thousands of monsters out there. Many of which fit perfectly into a science-fantasy setting. Plus third party publishers are already producing Starfinder material. PLUS there is an alien book coming out in October from Paizo. I don't mind a separate monster book.
Not buying anyway, but since you responded "this is based on Pathfinder" as if that were an answer to the complaint about no bestiary, and that since it's based on Pathfinder there are thousands of monsters apparently available for it, does this game assume ownership of Pathfinder and does it require that for use, or is a game you can play without buying anything else or tracking down whatever is online for free?
It doesn't assume ownership of Pathfinder, but using creatures from Pathfinder in Starfinder shouldn't be too hard. Most of the stats are the same. That said, not launching the Alien Archive with the CRB is a weird decision and until that book drops, you are stuck using Pathfinder monsters or the first volume of the published campaign.
Maybe creatures will be available when the SFSRD is online.
Considering the beastiary is separate in D&D and Pathfinder, I wasn't too surprised.
I just consider it a shame that in 500 billion pages they couldn't squeeze in a few monsters to get us started.
How does Paizo manage to make such humongous core rulebooks, and still not have room? I'm going to have to check out the page count and proportion of content one of these days.
They at least included rules in the book for adapting Pathfinder monsters. Lack of an immediate bestiary for D&D in space is a bit odd. They at least have a free PDF with some Starfinder monsters out, and the APs will add ... but, it's a bit shy on release.
I'm enjoying the book myself after a few reads through but don't expect it'll replace my current campaigns.
Quote from: Manic Modron;987739It doesn't assume ownership of Pathfinder, but using creatures from Pathfinder in Starfinder shouldn't be too hard. Most of the stats are the same. That said, not launching the Alien Archive with the CRB is a weird decision and until that book drops, you are stuck using Pathfinder monsters or the first volume of the published campaign.
Maybe creatures will be available when the SFSRD is online.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;987752Considering the beastiary is separate in D&D and Pathfinder, I wasn't too surprised.
I was about to say... weird since when? Games have put creatures in separate books for decades. Considering if you aren't a GM, you won't need it, it makes a lot of sense.
There are a few creatures in the free RPG day download:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9tmr?Starfinder-First-Contact
Quote from: Cave Bear;985745Resolve points look an awful lot like healing surges from 4E. The irony.
Not really, Pathfinder has been reskinning and hiding 4e-ism in the system for years now. You have to look for them, but they're in there. 4E mechanically had more 'good' ideas than bad when it comes to working with 3.x.
Quote from: Dumarest;987714Not buying anyway, but since you responded "this is based on Pathfinder" as if that were an answer to the complaint about no bestiary, and that since it's based on Pathfinder there are thousands of monsters apparently available for it, does this game assume ownership of Pathfinder and does it require that for use, or is a game you can play without buying anything else or tracking down whatever is online for free?
Pathfinder and Starfinder corebooks are the rulebooks for Paizo's adventure paths. You could alternately save your $10 on the corebook pdf and wait for the SRD. Then all you'd need to buy is the Alien Archive book since all of the rules in the corebook would be online SRD for free.
No bestiary in the corebook seems to be a pretty arbitrary line to draw in the sand, especially given how much is already packed into the corebook. Starfinder is D&D 3.5, you likely have some version of some Monster Manual somewhere if you need some monster stats right away. Or us the PC generation rules to make some villains. D&D has 3 core books, GURPS has 2, and both charge significantly more than $20 in pdfs for the privilege.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;987779I was about to say... weird since when?
I was trying to say that the two books should have been launched together, not that they should be one volume. Then again, they did the same thing when Pathfinder came out, put out the CRB and then two months later provided the Bestiary.
So this runs on a 3.x+ D&D chassis? No thanks then, I'm out. What I've seen of 5e doesn't appeal either, too much of what I didn't like about 3.x still in the game.
I'll stick with my old games and my retro clones.
Quote from: KrakaJak;987789Pathfinder and Starfinder corebooks are the rulebooks for Paizo's adventure paths. You could alternately save your $10 on the corebook pdf and wait for the SRD. Then all you'd need to buy is the Alien Archive book since all of the rules in the corebook would be online SRD for free.
No bestiary in the corebook seems to be a pretty arbitrary line to draw in the sand, especially given how much is already packed into the corebook. Starfinder is D&D 3.5, you likely have some version of some Monster Manual somewhere if you need some monster stats right away. Or us the PC generation rules to make some villains. D&D has 3 core books, GURPS has 2, and both charge significantly more than $20 in pdfs for the privilege.
Eh, not interested in D&D anyway, but was just curious. Personally, had I been interested, the argument of "other games require more than one book too" doesn't hold up for me, but then again I'm a heretic who finds Monster Manual-type books needless anyway as long as I have an imagination and basic familiarity with a game's rules.
So what's the appeal of D&D in Space ? And didn't Games Workshop already do it long ago, is that out of print or out of fashion now?
Quote from: DavetheLost;987813So this runs on a 3.x+ D&D chassis? No thanks then, I'm out. What I've seen of 5e doesn't appeal either, too much of what I didn't like about 3.x still in the game.
I'll stick with my old games and my retro clones.
You and me both, brother, although I'm still scratching my head and wondering what the point is of many retro-clones when the original is quite easy to obtain for very little money.
Quote from: Dumarest;987837You and me both, brother, although I'm still scratching my head and wondering what the point is of many retro-clones when the original is quite easy to obtain for very little money.
It's simple, really. People don't want to give WoTC their money, but they still want their Retro D&D fix. WoTC is the most evil company in the world, doncha know! They killed TSR! And stole their Baby Boi, D&D.
I wish I were kidding.
Is meant to be stand alone but flaky if isn't and isn't complete either
Quote from: Dumarest;987837You and me both, brother, although I'm still scratching my head and wondering what the point is of many retro-clones when the original is quite easy to obtain for very little money.
I believe the argument is something along the lines of:
'While the attempts at completely re-writing D&D 'to make it better' were fool's errands, that doesn't mean that the game was perfect and infallible. Why, it had ! So, since we are rejecting WotC's rewrites of the system, we can always make those tweeks we wanted old-style D&D to have in the first place.' The whole thing is a grand rabbit hole of hair-splitting (hare-splitting?). D&D is/was great, why do they feel they had to change it? That's completely unnecessary and ruined the whole experience! I'm going back to play my old version, just with these changes which are completely necessary and enhance the experience.
I think it makes sense when there are modification to fit a new setting. Isn't that what Lamentations of the Flame Princess is? I think that's the 19th C horror one, right? But if you're going to be adventuring in Greyhawk, might as well just use the original books.
I'm of absolutely two minds on it. There are things in TSR D&D that I think truly don't work (level limits as balance for demihuman benefits, as my go-to example) that I do in fact change in my house rules. If (and I mean if) you do not have a copy of the rules to begin with (and there are a lot of us who no longer have our original books), why not buy a version with the changes you were going to make anyways already included? As to the likelihood of a retroclone with houserules that perfectly match the houserules you'd be making--yeah, pretty unlikely. But that's probably why there are so many out there.
They are selling it as a complete and stand alone game. It isn't, clearly. It even talks about a bunch of antagonist factions. Instead of the silly legacy rules, which could have just been done as a download from the website, they could have put in some stats. Really poor.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;987930I'm of absolutely two minds on it. There are things in TSR D&D that I think truly don't work (level limits as balance for demihuman benefits, as my go-to example) that I do in fact change in my house rules. If (and I mean if) you do not have a copy of the rules to begin with (and there are a lot of us who no longer have our original books), why not buy a version with the changes you were going to make anyways already included? As to the likelihood of a retroclone with houserules that perfectly match the houserules you'd be making--yeah, pretty unlikely. But that's probably why there are so many out there.
Agree. This is a (partly) hidden aspect of the popularity of 5E--not using it as a finished product but as a launching point for whatever your house rules happen to be.
My version of 5E at the table is definitely drifted towards a Rules Cyclopedia version with level limits ripped out, race as class changed, ascending AC, etc. For various reasons (including but not limited to players having a copy of the rules), I find it easier to get there starting from 5E than RC. Now that I've seen 5E, if the secret gaming police took it away from me tomorrow, I could easily get to a similar spot starting from RC.
Same. I've also found that using 5e lets me bring in the kind of players who do not hang around on boards, are not invested in any OSR/modern games rivalry, do not care about your baggage or mine, but do want to play 'D&D' and do not feel the need to build a character out of feats and prestige classes and AEDU powers and whatever else. If I pull out RC, they will say, "what, didn't I hear they released new editions since then that gets rid of [race as class/racial level limits/unusable thief ability percentages/whatever-their-particular-gripe-is]?" And instead of going into the pitfalls of 3e-4e, I can instead whip out 5e and play it w/o feats, with rolled stats, and with nominal multiclassing, splats, or power creep, and get a good 85-90% of the BECMI game I wanted.
Oh. Right. Starfinder thread. Um, yeah. Not the target audience.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;988008While I think pre-statted NPCs are among the most valuable tools you can give to a GM (which is why we have so many of them in the Infinity RPG), I don't really buy the argument that they're required in order to have a complete game. Does the core book include the rules for creating NPCs?
Not so far as I can tell, just rules for player characters so youd have to use those
Quote from: Dumarest;987837You and me both, brother, although I'm still scratching my head and wondering what the point is of many retro-clones when the original is quite easy to obtain for very little money.
Because when the whole retro-clone thing started, the original was NOT easy to obtain cheap. There were no legal PDFs for the longest time and certainly nothing printed unless you looked on e-bay, where prices were absurd. (Prices on e-bay are still absurd, particularly since you CAN buy legal PDFs cheap now.)
- - - - -
As to STARFINDER, I've picked it up and thumbed through it several times but not bought it. I really want to like it, but I didn't have a great experience with PATHFINDER and I'm sure that I would buy it, read it, never use it. I would prefer to have some sort of "5E Space" that could be played through an Adventurer's League format because then my local game store would actually sanction it and I could play there.
There was a flicker of interest when somebody advertised an 'absurdist' supplement for the game - as I like absurdist sci-fi. But, honestly, having skirted through what the rules are like it's really not to my tastes and doesn't fulfil any particular niche for me at all (being a Traveller fan). It's really just a product for Pathfinder fans, which is admittedly a large fanbase compared to most, but's not really got any wider application. I think it'll last three years.
Quote from: finarvyn;988187Because when the whole retro-clone thing started, the original was NOT easy to obtain cheap. There were no legal PDFs for the longest time and certainly nothing printed unless you looked on e-bay, where prices were absurd. (Prices on e-bay are still absurd, particularly since you CAN buy legal PDFs cheap now.)
I'm going to have to disagree with you there because I constantly see old copies of Basic and AD&D for sale cheap, and have seen them for sale cheap everywhere from used book stores to garage sales for ages.
Edit: Also, the used shelf at the local game store used to have at least a dozen old copies of various editions and supplements for them, as well as old copies of Dragon and Rifter and various other magazines; I don't know if they are still there as I haven't been inside in probably 18 months. I bought extra copies of Basic, Expert, and Companion for $2 to $3 per book.
Quote from: Dumarest;988222I'm going to have to disagree with you there because I constantly see old copies of Basic and AD&D for sale cheap, and have seen them for sale cheap everywhere from used book stores to garage sales for ages.
Edit: Also, the used shelf at the local game store used to have at least a dozen old copies of various editions and supplements for them, as well as old copies of Dragon and Rifter and various other magazines; I don't know if they are still there as I haven't been inside in probably 18 months. I bought extra copies of Basic, Expert, and Companion for $2 to $3 per book.
Your experience is not indicative of the gaming world. And neither are mine.
Quote from: Dumarest;988222I'm going to have to disagree with you there because I constantly see old copies of Basic and AD&D for sale cheap, and have seen them for sale cheap everywhere from used book stores to garage sales for ages.
The exact issue was both price (for the stuff priced as collector's items) and availability (having to go on the used market like ebay). For some products, like the ones you mentioned, the issue was availability. For others it was price for some it was both.
But... But... yeah I hear you about availability. But it was
just inconvenient enough with
just enough of a bad rep that the average hobbyists didn't bother compared to the alternative. The alternative being every other RPGs that has current support and in distribution. For a person who was bound and determined to find an older game it wasn't a big hurdle but it reduced the number of causal hobbyists willing to give a classic edition a try.
And finally if you need extra copies to sell or give away, you couldn't do that with the originals. Most places had a finite supply and no way of getting more once it was bought up. Plus there that pesky copyright issue about making copies.
The Retro-clones allowed the classic edition to revive to the point where they are like any other RPG that is not in the top five. A small base of hobbyists that are fans with products coming out every quarter. That was initial goal of OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, and the rest. And by all measure that been a resounding success. Now what happens is whatever the hobbyists decides wants to happen.
Ask any OSR publishers about the nuts and bolts of distribution and sustaining a customer base and the answers will be a variation of the above. Now the fact that the original PDFs are readily available and some in PoD form is just icing on the cake.
Quote from: Dumarest;988222I'm going to have to disagree with you there because I constantly see old copies of Basic and AD&D for sale cheap, and have seen them for sale cheap everywhere from used book stores to garage sales for ages.
I am going to take a guess that you live in urban North America, correct? Now, the farther you go from that, or the farther your tastes diverge from the Basic and Expert Moldvays and Mentzers, plus core AD&D and maybe UA, or the 2e reprints, the less and less frequent successful garage sale finds are going to be.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;988229Your experience is not indicative of the gaming world. And neither are mine.
Your response has nothing to do with what I said. It's also wrong. But that's par for the course for Christopher Brady.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;988233I take it you live in urban North America, am I right?
Yes, no shortage of D&D books here.
And if the point is that they are hard to get out in the boonies, that may or may not be true but then so are the clones.
Quote from: Dumarest;988235And if the point is that they are hard to get out in the boonies, that may or may not be true but then so are the clones.
Yes, but if they are hard to find out in the boonies (or outside US/Canada), then you go online, to e-bay with the expensive, possibly worn old books,
or you buy a brand new, sometimes free or cost-of-printing retroclone that might even have some change you were looking for.
Quote from: Biscuitician;987597I'm tempted: the pdf is ten bucks on their website, which seems suspiciously cheap making me think I've misunderstood what they are selling
I am 99% sure it's the full game/PDF so I am assuming it's a "gateway drug" reasoning for selling it at that pricepoint ($9.99 USD). Personally I think that's a great idea. Do the same with the 5EPHB.
Quote from: Biscuitician;987709Took a look. I'll give it a pass. If they are selling a 500page book and can't be bothered to include any kind of bestiary they can fuck off. Ridiculous. Plus the backstory is lazy shit. The gap? Fuck right off.
I agree about the missing bestiary, I bought the Dead Tree and thought the same. But I also knew, mostly what I was getting into with a Paizo book. The forthcoming Monster Book isn't very big either which seems odd to me. Granted you can use any 3E monster book for Starfinder, it still sucks not having a big, meaty, dedicated Space-Monster Manual.
Quote from: Dumarest;988235Yes, no shortage of D&D books here.
And if the point is that they are hard to get out in the boonies, that may or may not be true but then so are the clones.
Retro-clones solve three problems:
1. Availability, both electronically and in print. Until a couple of years ago, it was impossible to legally obtain electronic copies of D&D books. Also, as others have pointed out, unused print copies of BECMI or AD&D 1E or what have you are not always easy to come by.
2. Retro-clones tend to be better presented and edited, and more readable than the original material.
3. Retro-clones add and/or change things to the game to make it more relatable to a modern RPG audience, such as ascending AC and/or a unified mechanic.
Quote from: Celestial;988254Retro-clones solve three problems:
1. Availability, both electronically and in print. Until a couple of years ago, it was impossible to legally obtain electronic copies of D&D books. Also, as others have pointed out, unused print copies of BECMI or AD&D 1E or what have you are not always easy to come by.
2. Retro-clones tend to be better presented and edited, and more readable than the original material.
3. Retro-clones add and/or change things to the game to make it more relatable to a modern RPG audience, such as ascending AC and/or a unified mechanic.
What are you talking about? According to Dumarest, it's ALWAYS been easy to get legal copies of older editions! Because his city is representative of the ENTIRE WORLD!
Quote from: Dumarest;988234Your response has nothing to do with what I said. It's also wrong. But that's par for the course for Christopher Brady.
Well, Captain Out of Touch, I hate to break it to you, but it actually does. I live in a major Canadian town, but unfortunately, trying to get an older edition of D&D even at second hand shops are difficult. But according to you, I'm wrong. But hey, don't let the fact that anecdotes are not fact bother you, pumpkin.
I know you can convert pathfinder races and play space elves, but why not just do this as the default? I don't really understand all the bizarre races they incldued as the main character races in what is intended as Pathfinder in Space? Instead of not-the-eldar you can play a space mouse or insect man.
I don't know their specific reasoning, but if Shadowrun is any indication, some people like that approach and some people really really hate it.
Shadowrun is for people who are afraid to play in cyberpunk settings without their tolkien pastiche blankie.
See? Right there. Anyone want to guess that when they were making Starfinder, they were afraid of hearing "Starfinder is for people who are afraid to play in sci fi/space settings without their tolkien pastiche blankie?"
Quote from: Willie the Duck;988392I don't know their specific reasoning, but if Shadowrun is any indication, some people like that approach and some people really really hate it.
of course, but you're creating a space fantasy game called sarfinder when your primary audience knows you for your fantasy game called pathfinder. If their market research turned out that they didn't want a space fantasy-actual-fantasy game then weird
Quote from: Willie the Duck;988399See? Right there. Anyone want to guess that when they were making Starfinder, they were afraid of hearing "Starfinder is for people who are afraid to play in sci fi/space settings without their tolkien pastiche blankie?"
I hope you're being sarcastic. Pathfinder shouldn't give a damn about what a non-fan like me thinks of that kind of setting. If they do, then they're oversensitive ninnies.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;988233I am going to take a guess that you live in urban North America, correct? Now, the farther you go from that, or the farther your tastes diverge from the Basic and Expert Moldvays and Mentzers, plus core AD&D and maybe UA, or the 2e reprints, the less and less frequent successful garage sale finds are going to be.
You can luck into weird stuff though. I found a proof Not-For-Sale copy of The World Tree once. It was the only gaming book the guy had. Should have asked him why.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;988398Shadowrun is for people who are afraid to play in cyberpunk settings without their tolkien pastiche blankie.
Or maybe it's for people who want to play in a Tolkien world without their cyberpunk pastiche blankie HMMMMMMMMMM REALLY MAKES YOU THINK.
Just as long as there's something leftover for us guys who don't like Tolkien pastiche or cyberpunk! :p
Quote from: Dumarest;988517Just as long as there's something leftover for us guys who don't like Tolkien pastiche or cyberpunk! :p
Is this one of those chocolate and peanut butter things or more like eggplant in lasagna?
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;988523Is this one of those chocolate and peanut butter things or more like eggplant in lasagna?
Easy Eggplant Lasagna Recipe Roast in the oven until tender, about 10 minutes. Mix together Ricotta cheese, eggs, and Parmesan cheese in a separate bowl. Prepare a large baking dish with non-stick cooking spray and begin layering lasagna as follows: sauce, cheese mixture, eggplant, cheese mixture, sauce and then top with Mozzarella cheese.
Quote from: Dumarest;988222I'm going to have to disagree with you there because I constantly see old copies of Basic and AD&D for sale cheap, and have seen them for sale cheap everywhere from used book stores to garage sales for ages.
Edit: Also, the used shelf at the local game store used to have at least a dozen old copies of various editions and supplements for them, as well as old copies of Dragon and Rifter and various other magazines; I don't know if they are still there as I haven't been inside in probably 18 months. I bought extra copies of Basic, Expert, and Companion for $2 to $3 per book.
You have a local game store? and it has a used shelf? and you have used bookstores? These things do not exist where I live. I am not kidding.
DriveThru
is our FLGS
Quote from: DavetheLost;988527You have a local game store? and it has a used shelf? and you have used bookstores? These things do not exist where I live. I am not kidding.
DriveThru is our FLGS
I feel for you...I like to actually hold a book and look at it before I buy anything.
Coupla thoughts responding to no one in particular:
I have developed the belief that Paizo can't design RPGs worth a damn. None of the changes they made to 3.5 impressed me, and in some ways made it more complicated. There's a lot that could have been done to make 3.5 work better, and they largely didn't do those things.
Then there's a bit of hubris. It appears that over the years, they have developed the belief that they actually have developed this amazing "Pathfinder Role-Playing System" and convinced themselves that it's far more than 3.5 with a few underlying rule changes and a giant pile of splats, and that's what people really love.
IMO there's not really a good reason to go with d20 yet again, except for the fact that the giant pile of turgid, unplayable games out there suggests that designing a fresh set of RPG rules is far more difficult than most people give it credit for, and I have no reason to believe anyone at Paizo is really up for it.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;988534Coupla thoughts responding to no one in particular:
I have developed the belief that Paizo can't design RPGs worth a damn. None of the changes they made to 3.5 impressed me, and in some ways made it more complicated. There's a lot that could have been done to make 3.5 work better, and they largely didn't do those things.
Then there's a bit of hubris. It appears that over the years, they have developed the belief that they actually have developed this amazing "Pathfinder Role-Playing System" and convinced themselves that it's far more than 3.5 with a few underlying rule changes and a giant pile of splats, and that's what people really love.
IMO there's not really a good reason to go with d20 yet again, except for the fact that the giant pile of turgid, unplayable games out there suggests that designing a fresh set of RPG rules is far more difficult than most people give it credit for, and I have no reason to believe anyone at Paizo is really up for it.
And yet some of us love the system. It's almost, *almost*, as though it is entirely subjective.
Quote from: Tetsubo;988546And yet some of us love the system. It's almost, *almost*, as though it is entirely subjective.
Wasn't 3.5 your favorite edition prior to PF?
I do agree that Paizo acts like they created the system that powered PF and it doesn't sit well but then I remember that for a lot of folks PF was their intro to their hobby
Are people really in love with Full Attack and feat chains? Starfinder was an opportunity to make an ambitious redesign to d20 and call it their own, and instead, they just kind of tacitly admitted that they have no idea how to un-break high level magic, seem to have tried to make fewer useless feats, and crammed even more widgets onto the character sheet.
Paizo's developers seem to understand that 3.5 had a lot of problems, but not the underlying reasons why, and so their fixes are usually to add widgets. 5e solves the problem of Full Attack by just getting rid of variable BAB and restrictions on moving and attacking, then tuning the damage options to make sure they don't get out of control. Reduce the variables, and you can balance the system better. Starfinder just makes BAB even more complicated. Depending on how many times you attack and who you attack, a Soldier might have a +0, -3,-4,-5, or -6 to your BAB just from full attacking. That's sticking with a 3.5 trope for no real reason other than "3.5 had Full Attacks and weaker BAB if you iterated, so we should keep that."
Not only have they somehow managed to make BAB more complicated, but unlike 3.5 and Pathfinder, now whether or not Full Attacking is a good idea is entirely dependent on enemy defenses! If you need a 12 or better to hit, never full attack. If you need an 11, two attacks are good, one and three are bad. 10 and below? Go with three.
What exactly are they achieving with this kind of design?
Quote from: fearsomepirate;988609What exactly are they achieving with this kind of design?
Money. They understand gamers. Gamers hate anything new, and Pathfinder players are among those who are the most vocal. Also, they have a system they effective (if legally and intelligently) stole for their own use, which cuts down on the work required into making a system, they just need to copy and paste after all. They have a built in audience and they know that this audience will buy it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;988628Money. They understand gamers. Gamers hate anything new, and Pathfinder players are among those who are the most vocal. Also, they have a system they effective (if legally and intelligently) stole for their own use, which cuts down on the work required into making a system, they just need to copy and paste after all. They have a built in audience and they know that this audience will buy it.
I'm not so sure. They changed the system, it's just that the changes make things worse instead of better.
3.5/Pathfinder: BAB = +11/+6/+1 for an 11th-level fighter.
Starfinder, Soldier Sharpshooter: BAB = (shit, I have to make a table)
[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500]
[TR]
[TD]Attack
[/TD]
[TD]+11
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Full Attack x2
[/TD]
[TD]+8/+8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Full Attack x3
[/TD]
[TD]+5/+5/+5
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Full Attack Ranged x2, 1 Target
[/TD]
[TD]+9/+9
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Full Attack Range x3, 1 Target
[/TD]
[TD]+6/+6/+6
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Full Attack Range x2, 1st target dies
[/TD]
[TD]+9/+8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Full Attack Range x3, 1st target dies
[/TD]
[TD]+6/+6/+5
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]...or this
[/TD]
[TD]+6/+5/+5
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
At this point, they're not still keeping the 3rd edition system in place for its own sake. It appears to me that they vaguely understood that having +1 on your third attack is kind of stupid and pointless, but never questioned the initial premise that a Fighter being able to move and make his full attack, or being able to make multiple attacks all with the same bonus, was somehow game-breaking (it's not). So instead they somehow made the 3.x system
even messier. I don't see any evidence that they had coherent design goals.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;988641At this point, they're not still keeping the 3rd edition system in place for its own sake. It appears to me that they vaguely understood that having +1 on your third attack is kind of stupid and pointless, but never questioned the initial premise that a Fighter being able to move and make his full attack, or being able to make multiple attacks all with the same bonus, was somehow game-breaking (it's not). So instead they somehow made the 3.x system even messier. I don't see any evidence that they had coherent design goals.
I don't know if you actually play the game, but I am having trouble reconciling your attack with reality. Iterative attacks
suck. It's fidgety in play managing different attack bonuses. Boiling things down to a single attack bonus is much better.
I was in a game store on Thursday and the owner told me that Starfinder has totally outsold expectations and that the first print run is totally gone. He said it would be a while before he could get more inventory. (Turns out that a different local store had a couple of copies and I decided to buy one.) Dunno if this is accurate or not, it's just what he told me.
Quote from: finarvyn;988650I was in a game store on Thursday and the owner told me that Starfinder has totally outsold expectations and that the first print run is totally gone. He said it would be a while before he could get more inventory. (Turns out that a different local store had a couple of copies and I decided to buy one.) Dunno if this is accurate or not, it's just what he told me.
Well, I have no insight into the hobby shop industry, but at GenCon, they were sold out by 3:00 Thursday. They were expecting to sell out maybe Saturday.
This could be a flash-in-the-pan thing, but locally the interest is high, prompting the introduction of Starfinder Society at a store that was dominated by D&D Adventure League. I suspect many D&D fans who don't have a dog in the pre-4e/post-4e D&D fight just see Pathfinder as "another D&D", but they see Starfinder as a change to do something different.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;988647I don't know if you actually play the game, but I am having trouble reconciling your attack with reality. Iterative attacks suck. It's fidgety in play managing different attack bonuses. Boiling things down to a single attack bonus is much better.
I think we agree, maybe? I think 3.x iterative attacks sucked (but at least they were the same from round to round). I think this system is sort of
trying to make things better by making the bonus flat within a round. But there's this round-to-round varying penalty that actually makes the choice
more complicated.
In 3.x, sure, iterative attacks suck, but you know that if you can take them, you ought to. There's nothing to be gained by not rolling your extra attacks. In Starfinder, because you have a flat penalty based on the
total number of attacks, how many attacks you should make depends on what you need to roll to hit (and you need to declare up front how many you're making).
This isn't going to stop anyone from playing it. It's just indicative of Paizo's approach, which is not to really improve the design.
How come no one is releasing third-party publications for Starfinder?
The popularity of Starfinder just means that there is no accounting for taste.
Quote from: DiscoSoup;988680How come no one is releasing third-party publications for Starfinder?
Uh, there are plenty (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/219461/Starfarers-Companion?src=hottest). Just not in stores perhaps.
Quote from: Celestial;988685The popularity of Starfinder just means that there is no accounting for taste.
Uh, there are plenty (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/219461/Starfarers-Companion?src=hottest). Just not in stores perhaps.
There seems to be a whole lot of badwrongfun in this thread.
Quote from: DiscoSoup;988680How come no one is releasing third-party publications for Starfinder?
Because you aren't looking in the right place, I'm assuming. I am actually sort of astonished at how much there is. There's a third party alien book available before the core Alien Archive has even hit the shelves.
Just last night, I noticed there was a third party roundup on the Paizo blog:
http://paizo.com/store/blog/v5748dyo5lk34?Look-Around-Can-You-Form-Some-Sort-of
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;988510Or maybe it's for people who want to play in a Tolkien world without their cyberpunk pastiche blankie HMMMMMMMMMM REALLY MAKES YOU THINK.
It's possible but not probable. The evidence does not bear that out.
I tried to give away my Starfinder book today to a friend that plays in a weekly Pathfinder game. He wasn't interested in taking it, so I guess I'm keeping it. I guess not all Pathfinder players are greeting Starfinder with open arms.
I browsed it at the FLGS and it is a pretty book. But I put it back since I don't see myself running it anytime soon. I wouldn't be opposed to play in a game sometime.
But if I ever ran it, I would use Dragonstar setting. Definitely not the house setting. The Gap. That is just stupid.
The setting is lame, but contains some interesting ideas. Absalom station is cool.
I just don't get why it's made the way it is. Magic also seems ill defined: it's just 'magic'. THere is no sci fi sheen to it at all. Not even a proprietary name like 'the force of others'.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;988651Well, I have no insight into the hobby shop industry, but at GenCon, they were sold out by 3:00 Thursday. They were expecting to sell out maybe Saturday.
This could be a flash-in-the-pan thing, but locally the interest is high, prompting the introduction of Starfinder Society at a store that was dominated by D&D Adventure League. I suspect many D&D fans who don't have a dog in the pre-4e/post-4e D&D fight just see Pathfinder as "another D&D", but they see Starfinder as a change to do something different.
The sad thing for me is that what I really want is 5E Space, not Spacefinder. I'd like something that is "Adventurer's League" sanctioned that I can play in my local store.
Oh, and guys, I was being facetious.
Quote from: DiscoSoup;988821Oh, and guys, I was being facetious.
:p I hoped so, but it's hard to tell over text...
I'm reading through my new copy of Veins of the Earth, and find myself thinking how well a good chunk of it would work with Starfinder - a lot of the monsters and such have a pseudo scientific / mystical aspect that seems to match well.
Quote from: Biscuitician;988778The setting is lame, but contains some interesting ideas. Absalom station is cool.
I just don't get why it's made the way it is. Magic also seems ill defined: it's just 'magic'. THere is no sci fi sheen to it at all. Not even a proprietary name like 'the force of others'.
They definitely could have worked the mysticism more. I'm likely to take a look at the B/X Psionics and see what could be.
I did like how Starfinder has a class around exploring the mystical-science jumbo jumbo of stars and gravity.
Zero interest in this.
My brother wanted to make a psychic, and we noticed that the source of a Mystic's power is intentionally vague. The source descriptions cover a lot of ground, from gods to psychic whatsists.
I'm working on an intro adventure (The AP was sold out, and I like making my own adventures anyway) and am going to see if I can scare up a group at my local gaming pub to give this a whirl.
Quote from: HappyDaze;988738I tried to give away my Starfinder book today to a friend that plays in a weekly Pathfinder game. He wasn't interested in taking it, so I guess I'm keeping it. I guess not all Pathfinder players are greeting Starfinder with open arms.
Well, if you don't want it, I'll pay the postage for you to send it to me Media mail. :)
Quote from: Gwarh;988248I am 99% sure it's the full game/PDF so I am assuming it's a "gateway drug" reasoning for selling it at that pricepoint ($9.99 USD). Personally I think that's a great idea. Do the same with the 5EPHB.
Well, WotC does something even better with the
free Basic version.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: jcfiala;989586Well, if you don't want it, I'll pay the postage for you to send it to me Media mail. :)
Let's see if it survives Irma first.
Quote from: RPGPundit;989162Zero interest in this.
And yet the thread remains open. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;990287And yet the thread remains open. :)
I don't recall Pundit ever closing a thread in the RPG forums.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;990333I don't recall Pundit ever closing a thread in the RPG forums.
I know; it was a (bad) joke.
I don't often agree with the Pundit, but he does follow his principles.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;990418I know; it was a (bad) joke.
I don't often agree with the Pundit, but he does follow his principles.
Ah. Earth humor. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;990287And yet the thread remains open. :)
Yeah, funny that, huh?
I don't get all the fuzz about Starfinder but it appears to be doing quite well. Then again, I don't get the appeal of Pathfinder either. It's probably just a preference thing.
Quote from: 3rik;991430I don't get all the fuzz about Starfinder but it appears to be doing quite well. Then again, I don't get the appeal of Pathfinder either. It's probably just a preference thing.
Is it doing quite well? I don't know what we'd base that on.
I think we give it a few months and we see what happens with Paizo. I have read on Tenkar's blog that he heard that they were having financial issues and if they go tits up we'll know that Starfinder wasn't doing well.
Traditionally, scifi games have not sold as well as fantasy games. The strength of D&D 5E really hurt Pathfinder's sales.
Quote from: Ulairi;991468Is it doing quite well? I don't know what we'd base that on.
I think we give it a few months and we see what happens with Paizo. I have read on Tenkar's blog that he heard that they were having financial issues and if they go tits up we'll know that Starfinder wasn't doing well.
Traditionally, scifi games have not sold as well as fantasy games.
This is true. And yes, I say give Starfinder a year, and we can then judge its success.
Quote from: Ulairi;991468The strength of D&D 5E really hurt Pathfinder's sales.
Is there any evidence of this? (Not denying it, but I want ammo against some of the diehards around here. Yes, I can be VERY petty sometimes.)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;991485This is true. And yes, I say give Starfinder a year, and we can then judge its success.
Is there any evidence of this? (Not denying it, but I want ammo against some of the diehards around here. Yes, I can be VERY petty sometimes.)
There is IVC2 "top sold games" but mostly I go on seeing Pathfinder played at cons/flgs and I have seen it dwindle. I don't know how much of that is due to the line being like 10 years old VS 5E. I just make the guess that Pathfinder succeeded because WoTC really screwed the pooch with 4E. 5E seems to be well liked amongst the varios D&D player bases (or liked "enough") that it kind of has to hurt PF sales.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;986255So is paizo dying? I have a friend who limed pathfinder.
Nothing in the RPG field "dies": my two main games right now are D&D 3.5 and the French "30° Anniversaire" version of COC - which basically is a 6.5 Ed.- of the game who never got published in English. As long as you have the books and the ability to come up with adventures (or the willingness to convert them) no game ever dies.
From what I have seen I am whelmed by it. Probably will not spend any cash on it.
I think Paizo's ultimate destiny is very similar to White Wolf's. They were huge because D&D was in a moment of weakness; now that moment has passed, and they will keep slowly but steadily eroding their market share as they march into irrelevance. How slowly depends on choices they make along the way.
Quote from: RPGPundit;991986I think Paizo's ultimate destiny is very similar to White Wolf's. They were huge because D&D was in a moment of weakness; now that moment has passed, and they will keep slowly but steadily eroding their market share as they march into irrelevance. How slowly depends on choices they make along the way.
Agreed, but it's a question of what level or sort of irrelevance they fade into. They could become the premier 3rd-party publisher for 5e. They'd end up smaller than they are now, but still in a sustainable position. The window for that is closing as Kobold Press seems to be rising to top, though. Alternatively, Starfinder could end up becoming a moderately successful RPG, as unlike Pathfinder, it's actually something significantly different from D&D. Science Fantasy seems like a thing people enjoy (cf. Shadowrun), and if they execute well enough, they could end up sustaining operations, though not at their current level.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;990154Not really. The Starfinder SRD is also available for free.
WotC's PDF version of their core rulebooks are more expensive than $10 and require a subscription to access.
There is no legal PDF version of the full PHB. If you're referring to D&D Beyond, that's not a PDF. It has a LOT more utility than a PDF.
The 5e SRD is free. Have no idea what that guy is on about. Ever.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;992064The 5e SRD is free. Have no idea what that guy is on about. Ever.
IIRC, the 5E SRD is considerably less comprehensive than the 3.X and Pathfinder SRDs--the latter contain just about everything mechanical from the books they encompass (although in PF's case, that's probably 'making a virtue of necessity'), while the 5E one is more selective and limited.
Quote from: Ulairi;991468Is it doing quite well? I don't know what we'd base that on.
I think we give it a few months and we see what happens with Paizo. I have read on Tenkar's blog that he heard that they were having financial issues and if they go tits up we'll know that Starfinder wasn't doing well.
Traditionally, scifi games have not sold as well as fantasy games. The strength of D&D 5E really hurt Pathfinder's sales.
OK, fair enough, the initial
online fuzz about it gave me the impression a significant number of people were really eager to pick it up. That's only online, of course.
Quote from: RPGPundit;991986I think Paizo's ultimate destiny is very similar to White Wolf's. They were huge because D&D was in a moment of weakness; now that moment has passed, and they will keep slowly but steadily eroding their market share as they march into irrelevance. How slowly depends on choices they make along the way.
Eh. Business fails, news at 11.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;992080IIRC, the 5E SRD is considerably less comprehensive than the 3.X and Pathfinder SRDs--the latter contain just about everything mechanical from the books they encompass (although in PF's case, that's probably 'making a virtue of necessity'), while the 5E one is more selective and limited.
The 5e SRD has every race + 1 subrace, every class + 1 archetype, ~90% of the monsters, and ~90% of the spells. Paizo gives away a lot more, obviously, but WotC has given away enough to do largely whatever you want.
Quote from: RPGPundit;991986I think Paizo's ultimate destiny is very similar to White Wolf's. They were huge because D&D was in a moment of weakness; now that moment has passed, and they will keep slowly but steadily eroding their market share as they march into irrelevance. How slowly depends on choices they make along the way.
Yes, to a degree (it's worth noting that White Wolf is still alive under new ownership, so we can assess how successful they are next year).
What Wolf did emerge as an alternative to TSR and co in the early 90s to address perceived weaknesses, in the same way Paizo did with D&D4. the difference however, is that White Wolf created an influential and lasting IP setting, whereas Pathfinder is still, essentially, a retro-clone set of D&D rules. White Wolf's IP will last as long as people taken interest in the setting ideas, for Pathfinder it's as long as people maintain interest in the rule-set.
Quote from: RPGPundit;991986I think Paizo's ultimate destiny is very similar to White Wolf's. They were huge because D&D was in a moment of weakness; now that moment has passed, and they will keep slowly but steadily eroding their market share as they march into irrelevance. How slowly depends on choices they make along the way.
Do you hear yourself?
"ultimate destiny"?
Vampire wasn't succesful because people couldn't find a preferrable version of DnD to play instead. It was successfull because it appealed to a mood or a zeitgeist. You might not like the game, that's fine, but don't bullshit us.
WW aren't irrelevant. They have a product, you don't like it. That's not irrelevance.
Quote from: Biscuitician;992547Do you hear yourself?
"ultimate destiny"?
Vampire wasn't succesful because people couldn't find a preferrable version of DnD to play instead. It was successfull because it appealed to a mood or a zeitgeist. You might not like the game, that's fine, but don't bullshit us.
WW aren't irrelevant. They have a product, you don't like it. That's not irrelevance.
WW has lots of products I don't have any use for. But I will not deny they are rather successful at finding folks that do have a use for them. Millions of them even. I don't even think they take my lack of interest personally.
Quote from: RPGPundit;991986I think Paizo's ultimate destiny is very similar to White Wolf's. They were huge because D&D was in a moment of weakness; now that moment has passed, and they will keep slowly but steadily eroding their market share as they march into irrelevance. How slowly depends on choices they make along the way.
While Paizo has lost market share, I haven't heard anywhere that their sales have dropped. While D&D is bigger again, that's because the RPG market in general grew with 5e rather than Paizo losing customers.
In most markets pulling in new customers is the job of the market leader(s) [not that they do it out of altruism - it just makes good business sense as it's more efficient than stealing customers from the little guys], and it appears that 5e is doing a pretty decent job of it thus far.
What I've heard, and take this with a big grain of salt for the rumor that it is, is that Paizo's still growing, but it's mostly just selling more product to the same customers.
To me Starfinder was a very solid "meh". They fix a few small issues yet it's still the same house with a primer coat of paint. To be fair that's how they sold it. What is hurting them is the terrible binding on the core books. It happens once, twice I can excuse it. More than that and they keep using the same printer is being both cheap and inexcusable. Being offered a replacement copy for free is all well and good. It's a know issue that keeps coming up. They have a band-aid fix to a bigger problem and don't seem to want to really fix it once and for all.
I don't think as a company they are hurting yet their agressive release schedule is beginning to affect the quality of their material. They have been putting more reprint in their books. THe Adventurer's guide was 1/3 rehash from existing sources. The latest Bestiary had more than it's fair share as well. Fans don't like to pay for reprints.
Quote from: sureshot;992612To me Starfinder was a very solid "meh". They fix a few small issues yet it's still the same house with a primer coat of paint. To be fair that's how they sold it. What is hurting them is the terrible binding on the core books. It happens once, twice I can excuse it. More than that and they keep using the same printer is being both cheap and inexcusable. Being offered a replacement copy for free is all well and good. It's a know issue that keeps coming up. They have a band-aid fix to a bigger problem and don't seem to want to really fix it once and for all.
Mine is holding up, but lately when I open/close the book, I hear the binding creak and I cringe a little.
Quote from: Biscuitician;992547WW aren't irrelevant. They have a product, you don't like it. That's not irrelevance.
Learn what words mean before trying to use them.
ir·rel·e·vancenoun
the quality or state of being irrelevant.
"the document was withheld on grounds of irrelevance"
a person or thing that is irrelevant.
"he regarded religion as an irrelevance"
ir·rel·e·vantadjective
not connected with or relevant to something.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;992222I stand corrected. The early press suggested downloadable versions of the rulebooks would be included. Apparently that hasn't turned out to be the case, so the reality is that WotC doesn't offer anything comparable to the Starfinder PDF that Paizo sells for $10.
And there is nothing Paizo offers that's comparable to the D&D Beyond services that WOTC offers.
WOTC does provide the basic rules for free. Which is a fully playable version of the game, and which remains the baseline of assumptions for adventures they publish. They also provide the SRD for free. The combination of which makes for a pretty powerful free version of the rules, but which is not the complete rules. And then there is the complete rules in a utility which is pretty amazing, for a fee.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each system. Presenting it as "X doesn't offer what Y offers" is a pretty skewed perspective when you fail to mention, "And also Y doesn't offer what X offers".
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;992584While Paizo has lost market share, I haven't heard anywhere that their sales have dropped.
I have (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/paizo-news-starfinder-creative-director.html). I don't take it seriously though.
Quote from: Mistwell;992658I have (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/paizo-news-starfinder-creative-director.html). I don't take it seriously though.
Okay - I haven't heard
anything substantial anywhere that their sales have dropped.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;992629Mine is holding up, but lately when I open/close the book, I hear the binding creak and I cringe a little.
I hope it holds up yet from what I hear about the binding issues be very careful with it.
I would not be surprised if they fell into the same trap that TSR did. Too much product released too fast and not enough demand for it. Or worse too much product and fans simply not buying it in large enough amounts to be profitable in the long run. They have rpgs stuff, comics, their card game, the maps, the novelty dice and so on. I'm a big fan of Pathfinder flaws and all and even I can't keep up. I would not be surprised if that was the case with others in the hobby as well. I think they need to slow down somewhat. Especially with 5E on the market imo.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;992629Mine is holding up, but lately when I open/close the book, I hear the binding creak and I cringe a little.
Mine started gapping on the top last session. :(
I even made sure to break in the binding before putting it to regular use. It seems like there might not be enough glue between the binding and the signatures.
Quote from: Mistwell;992657And there is nothing Paizo offers that's comparable to the D&D Beyond services that WOTC offers.
WOTC does provide the basic rules for free. Which is a fully playable version of the game, and which remains the baseline of assumptions for adventures they publish. They also provide the SRD for free. The combination of which makes for a pretty powerful free version of the rules, but which is not the complete rules. And then there is the complete rules in a utility which is pretty amazing, for a fee.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each system. Presenting it as "X doesn't offer what Y offers" is a pretty skewed perspective when you fail to mention, "And also Y doesn't offer what X offers".
Pathfinder doesn't require a Twitch account to obtain electronic copies of their books. Thus Pathfinder wins by default.
Quote from: Biscuitician;992547Do you hear yourself?
"ultimate destiny"?
Vampire wasn't succesful because people couldn't find a preferrable version of DnD to play instead. It was successfull because it appealed to a mood or a zeitgeist. You might not like the game, that's fine, but don't bullshit us.
WW aren't irrelevant. They have a product, you don't like it. That's not irrelevance.
The WW that put out Vampire in the early 90s doesn't even exist anymore.
Quote from: RPGPundit;993141The WW that put out Vampire in the early 90s doesn't even exist anymore.
Yes. However the WoD IP that they created still does exist, and has enough public interest that a new crew has invested in buying White Wolf anew. We will know how popular that IP remains with the release of Vampire 5th edition. The comparative question is, were Paizo to fold, how much interest would there be in keeping Pathfinder alive?
Do you guys own stock in Paizo or something? :rolleyes:
Quote from: TrippyHippy;993143Yes. However the WoD IP that they created still does exist, and has enough public interest that a new crew has invested in buying White Wolf anew. We will know how popular that IP remains with the release of Vampire 5th edition. The comparative question is, were Paizo to fold, how much interest would there be in keeping Pathfinder alive?
Seeing how many third party Pathfinder products exist, I imagine it would last for decades. Thanks to the 3.5 SRD we have how many OSR clones? If the PSRD remains in place, people will use it for a very long time.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
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Quote from: Tetsubo;993190Seeing how many third party Pathfinder products exist, I imagine it would last for decades. Thanks to the 3.5 SRD we have how many OSR clones? If the PSRD remains in place, people will use it for a very long time.
How many 3.x D20 third party products are still being published?
Quote from: RPGPundit;994190How many 3.x D20 third party products are still being published?
How many third party OSR products are being created thanks to the SRD *right now*? The entirety of your beloved OSR wouldn't exist were it not for the SRD. A *whole* lot of people really love the D20/PF system. We are legion. Pathfinder isn't going anywhere soon. No matter how much you may wish it otherwise.
Quote from: Tetsubo;994219How many third party OSR products are being created thanks to the SRD *right now*? The entirety of your beloved OSR wouldn't exist were it not for the SRD. A *whole* lot of people really love the D20/PF system. We are legion. Pathfinder isn't going anywhere soon. No matter how much you may wish it otherwise.
Sounds like you're the one trying to convince us, not the other way round.
Quote from: Biscuitician;992547Do you hear yourself?
"ultimate destiny"?
Vampire wasn't succesful because people couldn't find a preferrable version of DnD to play instead. It was successfull because it appealed to a mood or a zeitgeist. You might not like the game, that's fine, but don't bullshit us.
WW aren't irrelevant. They have a product, you don't like it. That's not irrelevance.
White Wolf in the 90's were selling hundreds of thousands of copies of each book they released. They aren't doing that anymore. White Wolf is much more on the level of where Palladium is today. They have a market but are no longer a dominate market force.
Quote from: Tetsubo;994219How many third party OSR products are being created thanks to the SRD *right now*? The entirety of your beloved OSR wouldn't exist were it not for the SRD. A *whole* lot of people really love the D20/PF system. We are legion. Pathfinder isn't going anywhere soon. No matter how much you may wish it otherwise.
Are you guys though? Just looking at the Pathfinder organized play movement there has been a significant decrease. How much of Pathfinder's success is due to folks like you, that love 3E, or to the fact that 4E was a failure and people ran away from it?
I do think that Pathfinder compatible product will be released for years to come because there is a sizeable group of folks and for smaller publishers they can sell fewer copies (especially with pdfs) and be okay. I don't think Paizo as a company is ever going to get back to their position they held prior to 5E.
Quote from: Ulairi;994230White Wolf in the 90's were selling hundreds of thousands of copies of each book they released. They aren't doing that anymore. White Wolf is much more on the level of where Palladium is today. They have a market but are no longer a dominate market force.
White Wolf haven't technically released a book for near enough a decade. The Onyx Path released stuff since then, but due to the changing hands of ownership, White Wolf have effectively been on a hiatus and haven't been in the market at all. As such, you can't make any comparison in recent years to any other company - we will know a lot more about their true status in the gaming market next year when they release a new edition of Vampire.
I think there will be a market for what I will call the 3e D&D experience for quite some time to come. In particular the system mastery/'I-get-to-spend-my-downtime-between-gaming-sessions-pouring-over-options-for-my-next-character bit. If PF disappears, than either 3pp will continue the trend, or a new system will pop up (or something like Radiance will receive a resurgence).
Still, 5e does this stuff "well enough" that I imagine the 3e experience market will continue to decline unless Piazzo can keep reestablishing it with stuff like Starfinder.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;994235The Onyx Path released stuff since then, but due to the changing hands of ownership
Plus - haven't all of their releases been POD rather than traditional publishing? Their prices are high and I don't know if they're even in any FLGSs.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;994243Plus - haven't all of their releases been POD rather than traditional publishing? Their prices are high and I don't know if they're even in any FLGSs.
Yep. They've raised lots of money through Kick-starters, and are top sellers on a lot of items in PDF/POD, but they effectively are removed from any mainstream retail sales for the last decade (or just under). There is obviously a market out there for their game IPs, but until White Wolf puts themselves back into the market proper, we don't know how big that market is compared to D&D, Pathfinder, Star Wars et al.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;994229Sounds like you're the one trying to convince us, not the other way round.
If stating reality is an attempt at 'convincing', than yep I am.
Quote from: RPGPundit;994190How many 3.x D20 third party products are still being published?
Well, let's see.
1) There's Pathfinder and it's various spinoffs, of course.
2) There's Mutants and Masterminds.
3) As best as I can tell from googling, Dungeon Crawl Classics is based off of the SRD.
And then as someone else has pointed out, there's plenty of OSR games that spin off of the SRD to one degree or another, such as Lamentations of the Flame Princess, which seems to be doing very well for itself.
Quote from: Tetsubo;994321If stating reality is an attempt at 'convincing', than yep I am.
Opinion and reality are not the same thing, and the more you try and convince people that your opinion is reality, the more anxious you come across.
Quote from: jcfiala;994337Well, let's see.
1) There's Pathfinder and it's various spinoffs, of course.
2) There's Mutants and Masterminds.
3) As best as I can tell from googling, Dungeon Crawl Classics is based off of the SRD.
And then as someone else has pointed out, there's plenty of OSR games that spin off of the SRD to one degree or another, such as Lamentations of the Flame Princess, which seems to be doing very well for itself.
M&M still operates within the OGL, but is largely it's own thing these days. The rule system has moved away from being the same as D20 I think.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;994368Opinion and reality are not the same thing, and the more you try and convince people that your opinion is reality, the more anxious you come across.
And the more you keep following up on this, the more of a Troll you're being.
(Which is fine, we're all trolls here.)
Quote from: TrippyHippy;994369M&M still operates within the OGL, but is largely it's own thing these days. The rule system has moved away from being the same as D20 I think.
And? It's still based on the 3.x SRD.
Quote from: jcfiala;994378And? It's still based on the 3.x SRD.
Obviously that's just your opinion, man.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;994369M&M still operates within the OGL, but is largely it's own thing these days. The rule system has moved away from being the same as D20 I think.
All they really did was rename Feats into Advantages, the core engine is pretty much D&D 3.x.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;994418All they really did was rename Feats into Advantages, the core engine is pretty much D&D 3.x.
Sort of. A big chunk of M&M's core mechanic comes from True20, which is why it only uses a single 20-sided die. It all ultimately owes its roots to the d20 system, of course, but it does work a bit differently given how it uses conditions rather than hit points.
It's still once again a rehash of 3.5 with better cover art. They changed somethings yet to not alienate the fans that like 3.5. it's still largely intact. That's Ok though because that's was one of the main selling points of Starfinder.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;994369M&M still operates within the OGL, but is largely it's own thing these days. The rule system has moved away from being the same as D20 I think.
Its D&D roots still show but I can almost escape feeling like I'm playing "D & D Super Heroes." No hit points, no assortment of funny dice needed, no classes. Not my favorite game, but I'd say at least by 2nd edition it was pretty well removed from D & D; from what I saw of 3rd it moved even further out.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;994418All they really did was rename Feats into Advantages, the core engine is pretty much D&D 3.x.
Not by 3rd edition its not. It has different abilities, different saves, no HP, no Classes, etc.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;993354And Abraham Lincoln was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth. All things which are true. None of which have any relevance to the false claim made by Dirk Remmecke.
You seem to have taken some personal offense at...
Then you've read me wrong. I have no horse in this race. I like 5e, but I'd happily play Pathfinder or Starfinder if that's what my group wanted to play. They're all fine rules and I am not personally invested in any of it being "better" than the others. I want them all to succeed.
I'd suggest, if you read what I posted as if there was some tone of offense, then perhaps it's you who is somewhat more invested in this topic than he's willing to admit. For me, we're talking inside baseball numbers. It's kinda dry as a topic, but I am up for discussing it anyway. There's no passion on this end though. Unlike you, this shit isn't my life. All I was saying is I see advantages and disadvantages to each system. If you disagree, cool. But, you're the guy getting his panties in a bunch over it.
Quote from: jcfiala;994337Well, let's see.
1) There's Pathfinder and it's various spinoffs, of course.
2) There's Mutants and Masterminds.
3) As best as I can tell from googling, Dungeon Crawl Classics is based off of the SRD.
And then as someone else has pointed out, there's plenty of OSR games that spin off of the SRD to one degree or another, such as Lamentations of the Flame Princess, which seems to be doing very well for itself.
I really don't have a dog in this fight. Cept to say that DCC is based upon the SRD like OSRIC is. It isn't a 'd20' clone. Not a 3.5 or 3.0 one at any rate. But I do concede your point. Back to your 'discussion'.
Quote from: dar;994492I really don't have a dog in this fight. Cept to say that DCC is based upon the SRD like OSRIC is. It isn't a 'd20' clone. Not a 3.5 or 3.0 one at any rate. But I do concede your point. Back to your 'discussion'.
Oh, I don't have a dog in this fight either. But it's therapeutic to argue over trivia when my wife is in the hospital.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;994454Not by 3rd edition its not. It has different abilities, different saves, no HP, no Classes, etc.
Yeah, they borrowed a bit of FASERIP for the new abilities and kept the stuff borrowed from DC Heroes and got even further away from Hit Points with "conditions" (I think they were called that). I liked the "bruises" from 2nd edition better and didn't like adding Fighting as an attribute, and didn't care for the "no attribute numbers, just modifiers" thing, but you'd barely recognize it as having been originally "D&D in Panties & Capes" at this point.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;994950:rolleyes:
When you get done dry-humping your bizarre strawman, feel free to join the conversation the rest of us are having.
Wasn't that a Nicolas Cage movie?
Seeing what i have read in other forums. It's so funny and ironic that the same people who complained about losing two levels of spells as they go only until Level 7. Are now wishing that they had beefed up the Melee types in Starfinder. Yet before Starfinder they would be the same ones claiming that the Fighter is good as is. Damned if you do and damned if you don't in the tabletop rpg industry.
Quote from: Brand55;994423Sort of. A big chunk of M&M's core mechanic comes from True20, which is why it only uses a single 20-sided die. It all ultimately owes its roots to the d20 system, of course, but it does work a bit differently given how it uses conditions rather than hit points.
Mutants and Masterminds 3e pretty much just shares the damage track. M+M 2e was so compatible with True20 that you could take the True20 Bestiary and just drop monsters into an M+M 2e game, which was enhanced when Shadow reverse engineered True20 to 2e's point buy system. If you compared monsters like some dinosaurs and the Vampire in both game, they have very similar stats. True20 characters mathematically work out to 7.5 power points per level but actually it's more like 17 at first level and 7 per level thereafter.
You can convert True20 and M+M back to a hit point system pretty easily. I have notes that I parsed from posts on the True20 forums kicking around. It works out something like a power rank of 2 is around 1d8 in damage. Hit points in True20 are easy enough to figure out, and I also have notes for M+M 2e. It's pretty easy to figure out weapons though, because if you do a side by side comparison of True20 and M+M with d20 Modern, you'll see the pattern pretty quick. Since they are d20 derivatives, that is no accident.