Quote from: Crimhthan;983622Apparently it isn't yours either.


Why should I have to do something that you obviously can't do?


It was clear in my post that I was quoting the definition and the only one full of anything is you. If you could read you would note that scenario always applies to a script or story of some kind. It is never used to define something open with meaningful choices. Your profanity does not get you any brownie points with me, but thanks for playing.

Are you honestly telling me you've never heard the word "scenario" used to describe the initial set up of a battle in a wargame?

Quote from: Crimhthan;983623I will continue to respond as long as I am being attacked and lied about. If they stop I will stop and not one moment before. I don't start fights, but I don't run away from them either. So the real trolls can stop any time they want to.

Crimhthan. This is derailing the discussion. You might have missed my post, but I warned everyone to keep it back on topic and to start a thread about "What is a sandbox" if that's something people want to discuss (and if you want to argue about the nature of word definitions, then try starting a thread in the Pundit Subforum about that).

Quote from: Crimhthan;983405Sandbox is about DIY, if you use others materials, then you are automatically including all the railroads contained in that material and if you go back and re-write it to fix that then you might as well have done it yourself to begin with.

And this is what I hate about Sandbox discussions.

Why shouldn't I use a pre-written setting? I can put a Sandbox in the Plains of Prax, in Sherwood Forest or on the Planet of the Amazon Women. The fact that someone else has written them up doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't use them.

If I have a pre-written scenario, why can't I use that as well? It sets up a location, a goal and some encounters. If the PCs don't want to go to the location, the scenario doesn't happen. If the PCs don't want to follow or achieve the goal, then the scenario changes. However, one or more of the encounters might still be relevant, some might require changing on the fly depending on what has happened.

But the idea that every sandbox is a blank piece of paper until the PCs go somewhere and do something just doesn't make sense to me. I like the idea of a living world, where things happen independently of the PCs, sometimes they intersect the PCs, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the PCs deliberately interact with what is going on around them, sometimes they don't.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983624And my argument is and always has been with those that refuse to accept this.

I am not seeing that with overwhelming majority of responses on this thread. Instead I see people with their own take and more importantly fitting the concepts of sandbox campaigns with the way they think. Which is most important step in being able to become comfortable with handling ad-hoc situations on the fly.

In addition from my experience advocating and explaining how to run a sandbox campaigns a formal concept for the past decade the approach you take doesn't do anything to help people understand or use the concept for themselves. It been my experience for 30 years that most tabletop roleplaying campaign are kitbashed from what ever resources referee thinks best.  

Because of this I try to structure what I say about sandbox campaign in ways that makes easy for other to cherry pick what they find works for them. Sandbox campaigns are not an on and off switch. It is a set of tools that can used with other sets of tools to help a referee to create an interesting campaign for his players.

For example, railroading is mocked by many. However there are numerous positive accounts of campaigns that are railroads. But just there are way more negative reports. Why? Because a good railroaded campaign is like a good movie or novel. While the player have little control over the direction, it a fun ride. But for every good movie or novel there are dozens of bad one. The technique puts a premium on the referee's personal talent to write. And like a campaign focused on the playing exploring blank hexes, the number of referee that are good at this are about a common as those who like to use GURPS with all the options in play.

Also note the above is simplistic. It is rare that a campaign is 100% a railroad. Far more common is where a campaign that have extended sequences of sessions focused on a railroaded adventure. In between these adventures or in between major sections of the adventure the players set the direction. Paizo Adventure Paths does this a lot because while they cover 20 levels they still only have six books to do it in. Wizards adventures are even more loose as they cram everything into one or two hardcover books.

Aside from a campaign that are deliberately designed as a railroad, why bother learning how to do a railroaded adventure well?
It can be come important in certain instances when the campaign is structured around players being subordinates in a larger group who have to perform duties  or missions. For example I ran a campaign where every players was party of the city guard of the City-State of the Invincible Overlord. The skill needed to come up with interesting and challenging missions or sequences of missions is the exact same skill needed to run a good railroaded adventure. The players were free to leave the city-guard and have the campaign spin off in another direction. But for the most part they wanted to continue as city guards to see if they could master the challenge of keeping a lid on City-State.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983623I will continue to respond as long as I am being attacked and lied about. If they stop I will stop and not one moment before. I don't start fights, but I don't run away from them either. So the real trolls can stop any time they want to.

Good luck with that. On this site it usually far more effective to just bow out. Once the shit starts flying you get dirty regardless of your wrongness or rightness or how hard you play.

Quote from: soltakss;983633And this is what I hate about Sandbox discussions.

Why shouldn't I use a pre-written setting? I can put a Sandbox in the Plains of Prax, in Sherwood Forest or on the Planet of the Amazon Women. The fact that someone else has written them up doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't use them.

He talking out of his ass. Speaking as a person who written several thousand words on the topic, been doing this for 30+ years, one of the first who popularized the concept in the mid 2000s, I use published material all the time.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983632Crimhthan. This is derailing the discussion. You might have missed my post, but I warned everyone to keep it back on topic and to start a thread about "What is a sandbox" if that's something people want to discuss (and if you want to argue about the nature of word definitions, then try starting a thread in the Pundit Subforum about that).

I concur with this as well. Start some new threads Crimhthan.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983459Sorry that you hate the dictionary so much, but that's OK I will stop asking you to use real words, go ahead and just make words up and assign any meaning you want since real definitions are too difficult for you to deal with.

Sorry your reading comprehension is so low you cant use a dictionary properly.

Instead you blazingly show off just how little you know about sanboxing.

Try again please.

Quote from: Omega;983656Sorry your reading comprehension is so low you cant use a dictionary properly.

Instead you blazingly show off just how little you know about sanboxing.

Try again please.

Ah a complete idiot, thank you for playing.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;983492The first definition of "Sandbox" - a shallow box or hollow in the ground partly filled with sand for children to play in.

Dammit!  We're all doing it wrong!

I know!

By the way. Theres nuts now wanting to define sandbox RPGing as something with a defined focus and plot. Because real sanboxes have limits. I kid you not.

Quote from: estar;983647He talking out of his ass. Speaking as a person who written several thousand works on the topic, been doing this for 30+ years, one of the first who popularized the concept in the mid 2000s, I use published material all the time.

You are really going to take credit for being the creator of sandboxes - really, I mean really!

Quote from: Crimhthan;983665You are really going to take credit for being the creator of sandboxes - really, I mean really!

He said popularizer, not creator.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983665You are really going to take credit for being the creator of sandboxes - really, I mean really!

Reread what I said, I said I helped popularized it. A different thing. It was part of the marketing of the Wilderlands boxed set back in the mid 2000s. A bunch of long time Judges Guild referee were tapped to write the expanded content for the original 18 maps. It was pricey at $70 so people naturally asked what it good for. On the mailing list it was suggest we call what we do a sandbox campaign because it was similar in philosophy to a set of computer games that were called sandboxes (for example Civilization, or better yet Valve's Garry's Mod). For my part I thought the term was a winner and immediately started using as well as the other Wilderlands authors.

Of course we didn't invent the style. We just gave it a name and talked about it a lot. Some of us have been running sandbox campaigns since the 70s, we just didn't have a formal name for it. And yes I am proud of my role in this as it spread the idea far and wide across the hobby which is a good thing.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983687He said popularizer, not creator.

Beat me to it

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;983524Holy shit. Is anyone actually reading all these pages of bickering? Let's go back to actual sandbox advice.

We keep trying but the new village idiot keeps dropping in.

Back on topic.

Theres alot of ways to go about sanboxing as has been shown before things went off to loony land.

You can have plots, no plots, kinda-allmost-plots, lots of little micro plots, stuff no one may ever interact with. but its out there, and so on.

You can have alot of pre-game prep, modules, a little pre-game prep, or all manner of on the fly stuff that itself has a range of styles and approaches.

Ive found that one thing that can dictate or at least nudge things in one direction or another is the players. Some styles of sandboxing really need proactive players who get their characters out there and doing things. Reactionary players can be harder to work with depending on the type. Some will become aggressive and participatory once they have something to react to. Others are very passive and look to the DM to lead them. Some players need some threads to grab onto and run with and aren't all that good at just going out and making stuff happen. But are great with choosing and dealing with a situation once they see it. Others will forge off and do whatever. Possibly ignoring all threads.

Theres probably other types. But those were the types of players Ive dealt with myself.

As a player Im told Im very good at making things happen. This is often unintentional. I just like to interact with the game world and that tends to lead to crazy stuff happening. But Im the sort who steps back and lets the characters with the applicable skills do their thing. I will though maneuver around other PCs if I think they are making a mistake and not listening. Which is how I ended up inadvertently saving Castle Greyhawk.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983687He said popularizer, not creator.

He said that he has written several thousand works on the topic over the last 30+ years.

QuoteSpeaking as a person who written several thousand works on the topic, been doing this for 30+ years