Quote from: Crimhthan;983274You are incorrect, I do not agree that the players get to define the next scenario in a sandbox, one because the players get to make choices, they do not get to define things and two because a sandbox doesn't have scenario's (adventure modules). So I did not "repeat the same exact thing in slightly different words," what I did do was state something quite different than what you said and that does constitute "disagreement." FYI

English isn't your first language, I take it?

QuoteHmm, all sandboxes are non-linear but they are not scenario design and they are not railroads. So you might want to explain exactly what you mean by non-linear scenario design, since scenario design is writing adventure modules which by their nature are not sandboxes.

I'm going to need evidence you're capable of parsing an English sentence for meaning before we go any further.

QuoteDungeoncrawling is sandbox play and HexCrawling is sandbox play and both involve combat. Obviously mystery scenarios are more railroad than anything else and are typically something you do at a dinner party. Having read your article I just see three structures and those are Railroad, Sandboxes and Scenario Writing (Adventure Modules).  I didn't see an example of anything else.

Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983354Scenario: first standard definition is - a written outline of a movie, novel, or stage work giving details of the plot and individual scenes.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983369OK if you say so, but I have no idea how anyone made the leap from scenario to location. I have not been able to find anywhere that their definitions intersect.

Okay, all kidding aside, here's the thing: You're full of shit.

It's really clear where you got "a written outline of a movie, novel, or stage work giving details of the plot and individual scenes" as your definition of "scenario". You got it by googling "scenario definition" and then picking the first thing that flashed across your eyes. I know you did that because you quoted it word for word. But what's definition 1.2 in that dictionary definition of "scenario"?

"A setting, in particular for a work of art or literature."

It's really difficult to come up with any explanation for this except that you're deliberately trolling the thread.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;983521I don't understand, Bren. The meaning of "hand" is "to pick something up and give it to someone". I found that definition in the dictionary and it is the one and only definition which exists in the entire world. It's a verb, not a noun. You can't possess a verb. You can't count something on a verb, especially because a count is a title of nobility and is not a verb.

Exactly.

Holy shit. Is anyone actually reading all these pages of bickering? Let's go back to actual sandbox advice.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;983517And that's why I just gave a practical example of how I set things up, and how it come out in play. Avoids all this nonsense.

Alas, nobody was interested in that. Because "I have 20 minutes to write a reply, but I don't have 5 minutes to read anything first!"

The problem isn't that nobody was interested. The problem is that the one person in the thread who really needed to read it could not do so without getting the following outcome.
[video=youtube;ZuYbDP2kDfg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuYbDP2kDfg[/youtube]

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;983524Holy shit. Is anyone actually reading all these pages of bickering? Let's go back to actual sandbox advice.

Well I think the responses are blossoming into something magical, but we should keep this on track. Keep the thread on how to actually sandbox. Anyone who wants to argue over what constitutes a sandbox, start a "What is a sandbox" thread.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;983524Holy shit. Is anyone actually reading all these pages of bickering? Let's go back to actual sandbox advice.

Seconded:).

Quote from: Crimhthan;983315Novels have plots and Adventures Modules are scenario's.  Sandboxes have neither.

However settings have locales which can be and are written up in the format that Judges Guild and TSR pioneered. A map with numbered locations with each location having text describing what is there.

In addition like in real life, a set of specific circumstances can be considered a scenario in the classic wargame sense. There a goal that the players sets out for themselves and there is opposition which the referee (or other players in some campaign) handle. That goal is the "victory condition" for that specific set of circumstances. Very little difference than a scenario writeup for a wargame.

Arguing over the use and definition of words like plots, scenario, etc is just a intellectual slapping contest. What makes a campaign a sandbox is the willingness of the referee to let the players attempt to trash his setting. The multitude of advice I have written is about how I handled my players trying to trash my setting. My way is just one of several possible methods of managing this. No matter the tools or rules used it all boils to one thing, are you OK as a referee in letting players attempt to trash your setting in way the players (not you) see fit? if the answer is yes, and you strive to learn how to handle this in a fun and interesting way from session to session then you are doing it right.

For example, there is a bandit clan, led by Hawk One-Eye, who raid the surrounding villages from their mountain hideout. The PCs hear about bandit raids now and again, they might even see a bandit raid or meet a small group of bandits in the wilds. Hawk One-Eye is raiding to get rich and also to cover up the stealing of artefacts that he is planning to use to summon a long-dead bandit king, so he can unite the various bandit clans. Does this count as a plot? Does it have a place in a sandbox?

I really don't think this is so complicated is it?  Does what you describe count as a "plot?"  Well, for me the common definition of a plot as the MAIN STORY LINE of a work of fiction is a bit problematic.  The word implies an over riding structure that personally bugs me.  But sure, in a sense what you describe is a plot (although sub-plot works a little better for me).  Does it fit in a sandbox?  Obviously.  If however it's the ONLY thing in your sandbox for the players to "choose" to interact with then it isn't much of a sandbox.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;983520English isn't your first language, I take it?

Apparently it isn't yours either.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;983520I'm going to need evidence you're capable of parsing an English sentence for meaning before we go any further.

Why should I have to do something that you obviously can't do?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;983520Okay, all kidding aside, here's the thing: You're full of shit.

It's really clear where you got "a written outline of a movie, novel, or stage work giving details of the plot and individual scenes" as your definition of "scenario". You got it by googling "scenario definition" and then picking the first thing that flashed across your eyes. I know you did that because you quoted it word for word.

It was clear in my post that I was quoting the definition and the only one full of anything is you. If you could read you would note that scenario always applies to a script or story of some kind. It is never used to define something open with meaningful choices. Your profanity does not get you any brownie points with me, but thanks for playing.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;983524Holy shit. Is anyone actually reading all these pages of bickering? Let's go back to actual sandbox advice.

I will continue to respond as long as I am being attacked and lied about. If they stop I will stop and not one moment before. I don't start fights, but I don't run away from them either. So the real trolls can stop any time they want to.

Quote from: estar;983571What makes a campaign a sandbox is the willingness of the referee to let the players attempt to trash his setting. The multitude of advice I have written is about how I handled my players trying to trash my setting. My way is just one of several possible methods of managing this. No matter the tools or rules used it all boils to one thing, are you OK as a referee in letting players attempt to trash your setting in way the players (not you) see fit? if the answer is yes, and you strive to learn how to handle this in a fun and interesting way from session to session then you are doing it right.

And my argument is and always has been with those that refuse to accept this.

Quote from: Bren;983467It doesn't matter. Because you are using the wrong words. Words that Crimthan doesn't understand. Sadly the number of words Crimthan does understand can be counted on both your hands....both your hands assuming you are an unlucky carpenter.

Dude that is exactly what you repeatedly doing in these threads. :rolleyes:

He doesn't hate the dictionary. He, like the rest of us, likes the dictionary enough to read beyond the first definition of the word. You should try it sometime. Another thing you should try is learning the meaning of context. Its one of the ways other people determine which definition is being used at any particular time. "Context" it's a word you should learn.

You should try following your own advice, since you all are ignoring context to come up with your precious little out of line definitions, again as long as I am attacked I will respond. Let me know when you are tired of trolling this thread.

Crim, there's a multi quote option that you should consider;).