Quote from: jeff37923;971292This is not a system problem as much as it is a GM problem with not knowing small unit tactics or the rules.

Lets just look at a Bounty Hunter with 7 dice in Dodge who is being shot at by a squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty). Now for every extra action taken, you have to subtract a die from the skill roll that round. So the Bounty Hunter will roll 7D, 6D, 5D, 4D, 3D, 2D, 1D, 0, and 0 in Dodge against the stormtroopers - so statistically at least one of them (if not more) is going to hit the Bounty Hunter.

Don't like that? Lets look at another version using some ignored rules from the Gamemaster's Toolkit. Behold, the Combined Actions Chart!

Number Combined  Bonus
  1                        --
  2                        1D
  3                        1D+1
  4                        2D
  5                        2D+1
  6                        3D
  7                        3D
  8                        3D+1
  9                        3D+2
  10                       4D
  12                       4D+1
  15                       5D
  25                       6D
  40                       7D
  60                       8D
  100                      9D
  150                      10D
  250                      11D
  400                      12D
  600                      13D
  1000                     14D
  1500                     15D

Take that same squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty) shooting at the 7D Dodge Bounty Hunter (we will let the Bounty Hunter use all his Dodge skill dice to defend without dropping 1D for every extra action). The stormtroopers all firing in unison will get 6D+2 against the Bounty Hunter's 7D Dodge, which is still pretty damn good statistically.

This comes about from people not understanding the RAW, much  like the myth of the Blaster-Proof Wookie.

EDIT: And Bren beat me to it....

This is why I like you guys. I can't be bothered to look all this stuff up to explain why the criticism is bogus to begin with.

Quote from: Manic Modron;971168Heh... for a moment I thought that "telephone book sized" was ridiculous hyperbole... but then I remembered how thin the telephone books that get delivered are these days.

They still deliver phone books where you are? Can't remember the last time I got a White Pages. Now and then we get a Yellow Pages but it's about as thick as the 1st edition AD&D DMG. It's too bad, too, because I used to use the White Pages as a source for character names. There used to be a listing for "Fitzgerald, F. Scott & Ella" in the San Diego White Pages!

Not a white pages, I don't think, and it has been a long time since a Yellow Pages.  I think I just looked at it, showed my roommates an artifact of the past struggling to survive and got rid of it.

Quote from: Bren;971289Well in 1E any hit, even one that is less than the PC's STR roll puts the PC down for the round. If you beyond 1E then you are not using multiple action penalties. Shooting and dodging is at least two actions so dodge is now down to 5D or 6D. And you are not using combined actions. A squad of 10 stormtroopers gives a +4D bonus to their attack which is at least 3D to start. So 7D attack vs. 5D or 6D dodge. So the PC is hit and one stormtrooper goes down. Either the PC burns character points or they probably end up stunned or wounded which probably spells the end of the line for them. Next round the same thing happens. Unless the PC has lots and lots of CPs, running solo against a squad of stormtroopers is a bad strategy.

A successful hit with damage below the strength roll only gives a "stun" result. This gives a -1D on action until the next turn. It only incapacitates when there are a number of stuns suffered equals the number of od strength dice you have.

You need to be able to hit first. A full round dodge adds the dodge result to the base number needed to hit someone. A normal reaction dodge the player has the choice of the dodge result or the base number becoming the new number needed to hit. Stormtroopers have 3D Blaster to hit while in their armor.

Good luck when a group of 4 or so veteran PCs are fighting together against them. I did find the exploding wild die of later editions to be helpful.

In D6 when Stormtroopers show up the players saw it as a warm up. In FFG SW when Stormtroopers show up they dive for cover and start formulating an escape plan.

Quote from: jedimastert;971470In D6 when Stormtroopers show up the players saw it as a warm up.

Well, that is understandable with your demonstrable lack of knowledge about RAW.

Quote from: jedimastert;971470In FFG SW when Stormtroopers show up they dive for cover and start formulating an escape plan.

I would too if it led to less interpretive dice rolling when you just need solid yes/no answers.

Quote from: jeff37923;971474Well, that is understandable with your demonstrable lack of knowledge about RAW.

I would too if it led to less interpretive dice rolling when you just need solid yes/no answers.

Ok, but seriously though.  Don't you think the capability a high dodge gives you in d6 is a little overpowered?  I mean even combining them we're talking about NINE Stormtroopers having some chance to get ONE hit TOTAL and calling it good.

I think one thing that isn't being discussed is how hard it is to get 7d dodge.  Is that a 7th level character in D&D terms, or is it 17th or 27th level?  That matters.

Quote from: jeff37923;971292This is not a system problem as much as it is a GM problem with not knowing small unit tactics or the rules.

Lets just look at a Bounty Hunter with 7 dice in Dodge who is being shot at by a squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty). Now for every extra action taken, you have to subtract a die from the skill roll that round. So the Bounty Hunter will roll 7D, 6D, 5D, 4D, 3D, 2D, 1D, 0, and 0 in Dodge against the stormtroopers - so statistically at least one of them (if not more) is going to hit the Bounty Hunter.

Don't like that? Lets look at another version using some ignored rules from the Gamemaster's Toolkit. Behold, the Combined Actions Chart!

Number Combined  Bonus
  1                        --
  2                        1D
  3                        1D+1
  4                        2D
  5                        2D+1
  6                        3D
  7                        3D
  8                        3D+1
  9                        3D+2
  10                       4D
  12                       4D+1
  15                       5D
  25                       6D
  40                       7D
  60                       8D
  100                      9D
  150                      10D
  250                      11D
  400                      12D
  600                      13D
  1000                     14D
  1500                     15D

Take that same squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty) shooting at the 7D Dodge Bounty Hunter (we will let the Bounty Hunter use all his Dodge skill dice to defend without dropping 1D for every extra action). The stormtroopers all firing in unison will get 6D+2 against the Bounty Hunter's 7D Dodge, which is still pretty damn good statistically.

This comes about from people not understanding the RAW, much  like the myth of the Blaster-Proof Wookie.

EDIT: And Bren beat me to it....

Well you conveniently left out how the rest of that chart works. That is the coordinated action chart. You need an NPC with the Command skill present to use that chart. For a group of 10 Stormtroopers (who average 4D Blaster (armor penalty does not affect their base skill level for coordination chart) you need an NPC present to roll a Moderate Command roll. A Moderate check is generally a 15. So most lower end shmucks and the Stormtroopers themselves would not be able to consistently make the required command check to allow them to get those bonus dice.

So unless you have a skilled commander (lets say 4D to 5D Command Skill or higher) with every group of Stormtroopers you will not be getting those bonus dice.

Quote from: jeff37923;971474Well, that is understandable with your demonstrable lack of knowledge about RAW.

Ah good ol' therpgsite.com posters. They never let me down.

No need to be defensive. D6 was my preferred system for a long time. I and my players are just enjoying FFG's system a bit more these days.  

Quote from: jeff37923;971474I would too if it led to less interpretive dice rolling when you just need solid yes/no answers.

Oh FFG has some pretty solid yes/no. A Stormtrooper with a blaster rifle is going to do a minimum 10 points of damage to you (and quite possibly a lot more). An average starting human soldier PC would have about 4 soak (damage reduction) and 14 hit points.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971478Ok, but seriously though.  Don't you think the capability a high dodge gives you in d6 is a little overpowered?  I mean even combining them we're talking about NINE Stormtroopers having some chance to get ONE hit TOTAL and calling it good.

I think one thing that isn't being discussed is how hard it is to get 7d dodge.  Is that a 7th level character in D&D terms, or is it 17th or 27th level?  That matters.

I think the way Dodge works when taken in context of an average group of PCs can be a bit much in D6.

6D Dodge is available at character creation depending on the Template chosen. To be fair 7D would take a lot of XP and play time if the GM goes by the recommended XP award guidelines. But in a long campaign 7D and higher Dodge skill is achievable.

Quote from: jedimastert;971481Well you conveniently left out how the rest of that chart works. That is the coordinated action chart. You need an NPC with the Command skill present to use that chart. For a group of 10 Stormtroopers (who average 4D Blaster (armor penalty does not affect their base skill level for coordination chart) you need an NPC present to roll a Moderate Command roll. A Moderate check is generally a 15. So most lower end shmucks and the Stormtroopers themselves would not be able to consistently make the required command check to allow them to get those bonus dice.

So unless you have a skilled commander (lets say 4D to 5D Command Skill or higher) with every group of Stormtroopers you will not be getting those bonus dice.

From page 82  of SW Revised and Expanded. The character in the group with the highest command skill (or Perception attribute) The character in the group with the highest command
skill (or Perception attribute) is the leader. Having points in a command skill helps but is not needed. The higher the Command Skill or Perception Attribute the more people the person can command. In the example they provide on the same page one of the characters has a 8D+2 Command Skill. He can command a maximum of eight characters when leading combined actions. The Arrogant Noble template starts out with 4D in Perception, the Protocol Droid 1D so the first without points in the Command Skill can lead four in a combined action attempt. The Protocol Droid only 1. Points in Command Skill helps but is not needed. Otherwise it would be impossible for many characters to combined actions. That's like saying that a group of kids can't dunk a basketball even if they attempt it as a group unless one is a expert. It helps to have a expert yet the kids can and will dunk the basketball.

Amazing how this thread got so much better once everyone started talking actual rules.

Quote from: sureshot;971487From page 82  of SW Revised and Expanded. The character in the group with the highest command skill (or Perception attribute) The character in the group with the highest command
skill (or Perception attribute) is the leader. Having points in a command skill helps but is not needed. The higher the Command Skill or Perception Attribute the more people the person can command. In the example they provide on the same page one of the characters has a 8D+2 Command Skill. He can command a maximum of eight characters when leading combined actions. The Arrogant Noble template starts out with 4D in Perception, the Protocol Droid 1D so the first without points in the Command Skill can lead four in a combined action attempt. The Protocol Droid only 1. Points in Command Skill helps but is not needed. Otherwise it would be impossible for many characters to combined actions. That's like saying that a group of kids can't dunk a basketball even if they attempt it as a group unless one is a expert. It helps to have a expert yet the kids can and will dunk the basketball.

There are differences between Expanded Rule 1E/2E and SW Revised and Expanded. The chart that jeff references is from the earlier editions. How combined actions were used and the max bonus that could be attained were changed in Revised and Expanded.

In the end I kind of preferred 1E. I don't like specializations or being able to use character points (XP) to temporarily boost  skill checks during play. I suspect jeff plays 1E or non expanded 2E.

Thanks jeff37923. You were second to the party but you walked through detailed examples that explains what jedimastert was missing.

Quote from: jedimastert;971470A successful hit with damage below the strength roll only gives a "stun" result. This gives a -1D on action until the next turn. It only incapacitates when there are a number of stuns suffered equals the number of od strength dice you have.

1. You are quoting the rules from 2nd edition or 2nd Revised and Expanded. But I said, "in 1E [1st Edition] any hit, even one that is less than the PC's STR roll puts the PC down for the round." Stun changed in 2nd Edition. What I said is correct for 1E.

2. Full dodge doesn't exist in 1E. In 2E, a full dodge doesn't allow you to attack the stormtroopers. So you can't take them out while doing a full dodge. And they can close on you walking a half move forward and shooting the entire time until they are right next to you. Then most of them keep shooting at you while the other two wait until after your full dodge and hit you with their gun butts. Dodge only works against missile attacks not melee attacks. So they will beat you into submission, then they can shoot you.

QuoteGood luck when a group of 4 or so veteran PCs are fighting together against them. I did find the exploding wild die of later editions to be helpful.

4+ Veteran PCs being able to beat 10 novice stormtroopers is not a fault of the system, it’s the system working correctly. In any realistic situation 4+ very experienced combat veterans are highly likely to defeat 10 fresh-to-the-wars recruits. The stormtrooper stats used are the minimum. Stormtroopers can be considerably tougher. WEG (the publisher) even included this both as a suggestion and with stats in various supplements and adventures--including the Imperial Sourcebook and The Death Star Technical Companion.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971478I think one thing that isn't being discussed is how hard it is to get 7d dodge.  Is that a 7th level character in D&D terms, or is it 17th or 27th level?  That matters.

Its not an answerable question. Some non-human characters can start with a 7D dodge. Some characters will play for dozens of play sessions and never reach that level of proficiency. I played a combat oriented character with a decent Dexterity (3D) and after 10 years and easily over a thousand hours of play I had a 7D dodge.

Also as a GM the character needs to be dodging in some way that makes sense, e.g. diving behind cover, zigzagging across the alley, something. In that context 9-10 people not hitting you is possible. If you are just standing out in the open in a flat and empty field or alley doing the crazy chicken dance, I’m not going to let you do a full dodge unless you can describe what you are doing in a way that makes some sense to me. How strict I’m going to be on what makes sense will be influenced by whether I think you are being an annoying little git. Also see my previous comment dodge working only against missile attacks.

Quote from: jedimastert;971481

1. Stormtroopers are elite troops. They likely have a bonus to following orders or combining actions.
2. A 4D command skill is professional level ability. That is well within the reasonable capabilities of Imperial officers, especially an a member of the elite stormtrooper corps. A 4D command skill on average rolls 14+. The difficulty of a Moderate roll is 11-15 so 15 is the max, not the norm. More often than not a 14 will succeed at a moderate roll. If we give the officer a very reasonable +1D bonus for commanding disciplined stormtroopers this increases to 18 or so which is in the middle of the Difficult range.

Its also worth noting the the stats for an ordinary stormtrooper include 0-5 Character Points. If you want tougher stormtroopers give them a few CPs which they might as well spend them to try and take down those 'Rebel scum.'

Quote from: CRKrueger;971489Amazing how this thread got so much better once everyone started talking actual rules.

Funny that. I'm always amazed how seldom people seem to read and remember the rules. If you think there is a flaw in the rules; a huge hole, a gap, some sort of "I win!" button for the PCs; it behooves you as the GM to actually go back and read the rules to make sure you aren't missing something basic as to how the rules were designed to work. I often find that if I do that there is already something in the system that fixes the problem or that the problem occurred due to me misinterpreting or misremembering a rule.


My comment is not aimed at you, Krueger. I'm pretty sure you know this already, I'm just using your post to introduce my point.

I never played 1E. I played from 2E and onward. I a;ways defaulted to the Perception value if no one had the command skill. Anyone can coordinate to do a task. so are better at it.