Quote from: Nexus;968463Actually, that's a fairly reasonable result compared to real life. Firearms, even powerful ones aren't death rays. People survive them all them all the time or linger for days. The problem for nominal realism can be how most games make conventional medical attention an automatic life saver and recovery always successful given time with no chance of lasting injury and disability. Though its probably more playable to handle it simply. Also I imagine having a character laid up for weeks, maimed or crippled long term is less fun and cinematic then a relatively quick clean death.

How many games account for shock? I speak from experience when I say it can turn even a minor gunshot wound into life or death.

Quote from: Lord Darkview;970222So someone pointed out this really "interesting" dialogue between Mark Hagan (creator of Vampire) and Holden Shearer (prior Exalted developer). Thought you all might enjoy the "exchange."

https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240

Just hunt for Holden's reply, it gets quite intensive rather quickly.

Disgusting bullying behaviour dressed up as sanctimonious, bleeding heart self-righteousness.

Quote from: Voros;970286Two or three morons harrass Hagen for working for a company that dared to hire Zak. Hagen defends himself well and exposes them for the self-righteous assholes they are but they live in such a delusional bubble they think they're winning and post on their own accounts bragging and circlejerking about their supposed victory. They are the internet's own STD.

Someone should screengrab that FB comment thread for the 'Why we hate you' thread.

Somehow I missed most of that, except for that first part. In the Medium article I quoted though, no specific names were mentioned other than White Wolf, and the name of the author of the article, who was slamming White Wolf.

Now someone upthread mentioned me being triggered, and I found that amusing. The whole purpose, pretty much the entire goal of gaming, especially rpg gaming, is to detach from oneself, and to roleplay, that is, to take on the characteristics of another person, so that one can empathize with them, and in order to understand why they made the decisions that they made, and to improve at making personal decisions, by increasing your awareness of how, and why, other people make the decisions that they do. That is real roleplaying, and it is used to improve the decision making process in real life.

Then there are role-playing games. Now a game is a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck. synonyms for gaming includes: pastime, diversion, entertainment, amusement, distraction, divertissement, recreation.

I have found that nowhere in the above definition of a game is said game required to contain sex, or violence, abuse, or any triggering behaviors, or any other dysfunctional social behavior, in any way, shape, or form. yet there are folks here that insist on dragging these negative elements into our sphere of gaming which pretty much, at the moment consists of entertainment, diversions, and recreation, except for those of you that are hopelessly hung-up on and completely obsessed with burdensome real-life issues. The whole point of gaming is to unburden yourself from those toxins.

It not that such sordid and sad roleplaying content "triggers" me, it's that I don't particularly care to be tainted by the same poisons that has so infected and sickened the folks that insist on posting about such trash here on this gaming forum. Got some real life issues? Why are you bringing them into our games here? Go find a real life psychologist, or psychiatrist who actually might be able to heal you, instead of spreading misery for other gamers here.

As for Kenneth Hite, He rocks! He is one of the most clear and concise writers in the RPG world. I'd be interested to see what he brings for the new edition of Vampire. I'd wager it'll be about a hundred times better than the morose navel gazing and whinging that has spread far and wide and managed to infect even the RPGsite here.



This would be Ken, Myself, and my son Nick last weekend at Origins 2017. Nick picked up Trail of Cthulu because he wanted to play Call of Cthulu, however we found Pelgrane Press first in the Origins Dealer Hall and I talked him into picking up this book instead on a hunch it might contain some RPG awesomeness. Having briefly looked over Trail of Cthulu, I found it looks to be just as good as Call of Cthulu, of course it also contains Ken's trademark spin which includes a boatload of interesting conspiracy theories, and some really great mechanics that just really livens up an already interesting game.  I think ToC is Nicks favorite new RPG, and he pretty much played CoC all day Saturday over in Columbus, while I stayed busy with a bit of shopping, and catching up with a few gaming friends.

Make a sanity check! If you fail, Whing on. If you succeed, make a good guess what Kenneth Hite will bring to Vampire. He did a great job for Trail of Cthulu!

I'm not entirely sure of the full context of what you are responding to, but.....

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300The whole purpose, pretty much the entire goal of gaming, especially rpg gaming, is to detach from oneself, and to roleplay, that is, to take on the characteristics of another person, so that one can empathize with them, and in order to understand why they made the decisions that they made, and to improve at making personal decisions, by increasing your awareness of how, and why, other people make the decisions that they do. That is real roleplaying, and it is used to improve the decision making process in real life.

No it's not. For the vast majority of gamers, the entire goal is to have a good time by playing loosely defined characters that delve into often hack-scripted adventures where you kill imaginary beings, take their stuff and gain experience and levels. Maybe you are suggesting they are all engaging in badwrongfun?

QuoteI have found that nowhere in the above definition of a game is said game required to contain sex, or violence, abuse, or any triggering behaviors, or any other dysfunctional social behavior, in any way, shape, or form. yet there are folks here that insist on dragging these negative elements into our sphere of gaming which pretty much, at the moment consists of entertainment, diversions, and recreation, except for those of you that are hopelessly hung-up on and completely obsessed with burdensome real-life issues. The whole point of gaming is to unburden yourself from those toxins.

I have found nowhere in any real definition of an RPG (not yours!) that requires that you play with any such restrictions - particularly in horror roleplaying which is pretty much made up of unsocial and unsavoury aspects by virtue of the genre it represents.

QuoteIt not that such sordid and sad roleplaying content "triggers" me, it's that I don't particularly care to be tainted by the same poisons that has so infected and sickened the folks that insist on posting about such trash here on this gaming forum. Got some real life issues? Why are you bringing them into our games here? Go find a real life psychologist, or psychiatrist who actually might be able to heal you, instead of spreading misery for other gamers here.

Or just avoid playing horror RPGs?

So got to kick the alpha test in the tires with a couple of friends.

Hated it.

Too many incongruous 'autopilot' effects and compromises to agency, and I don't see how it aligns with the priorities of either LARPs or videogames with one sad exception: preying on specific people gives you #PowerUps. Demo scenario is #EscapeFromNewYork meets #TheWarriors.

Quote from: Omega;965966"living settings" tend to fail on a regular basis to the point you wonder why anyone even bothers anymore.

Living settings provide additional avenues to engagement and generate free advertising and content.

Quote from: Lord Darkview;970222So someone pointed out this really "interesting" dialogue between Mark Hagan (creator of Vampire) and Holden Shearer (prior Exalted developer). Thought you all might enjoy the "exchange."

https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240

Just hunt for Holden's reply, it gets quite intensive rather quickly.

Ho. Ly. Shit.

...


#BRB

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300The whole purpose, pretty much the entire goal of gaming, especially rpg gaming, is to detach from oneself, and to roleplay, that is, to take on the characteristics of another person, so that one can empathize with them, and in order to understand why they made the decisions that they made, and to improve at making personal decisions, by increasing your awareness of how, and why, other people make the decisions that they do. That is real roleplaying, and it is used to improve the decision making process in real life.

I agree! I mean I may not say "the whole purpose" or "the entire goal", but it's a wonderful effect if you can manage it. RPGs have brought me some of my most startling empathetic challenges. Which brings me to:

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300I have found that nowhere in the above definition of a game is said game required to contain sex, or violence, abuse, or any triggering behaviors, or any other dysfunctional social behavior, in any way, shape, or form.

Of course it isn't. But aren't those every bit as valid topics as any other? Seems entirely compatible with what you're otherwise saying. Maybe even more valuable, given how sensitive those things are.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;970312preying on specific people gives you #PowerUps.

I like the "You Are What You Eat" principle in terms of having something to mechanically reflect that vampires are supposed to be taking something a little bit more than your average blood drive from their victims. It was previously kinda covered the the treatment of the "Blood Pool", but that ended up feeling like a gas meter the same way you say this feels like grabbing power ups...

Anything you think might mitigate that?

He should just tell those two to get bent and not buy his products. The stupid gits like those two and the posse over at TBP have no market power. It's why they hate the market so much because anytime their ideas are actually put into the marketplace they will fail.

Anybody else find it weird that the two dudes giving him the biggest problems, look like they weren't even alive or able to read when the game first released?

Quote from: Ulairi;970323Anybody else find it weird that the two dudes giving him the biggest problems, look like they weren't even alive or able to read when the game first released?

Does that make them or their points right or wrong? Then no. They, like everyone else, can succeed or fail based on the merits they bring forward in their arguments, not the year they were born.

I can't wait until I get off work and can actually read this facebook dumpster fire. Just from others' reactions, it sounds popcorn-worthy.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;970327Does that make them or their points right or wrong? Then no. They, like everyone else, can succeed or fail based on the merits they bring forward in their arguments, not the year they were born.

I can't wait until I get off work and can actually read this facebook dumpster fire. Just from others' reactions, it sounds popcorn-worthy.

They are wrong. They are nuts. They keep going on and on about Vampire and its place in history and how important it was when it came out because it brought "marginalized people out of the shadows" whatever that means. I just think it's funny that two guys that weren't old enough when Vampire first released to understand how it impacted the hobby are being such pricks to a guy who just wants to make games.

The argument summed up from where I stand.

"White Wolf -used- to be such a sensitive and welcoming company, making mature products."
"Like Pimp the Backhanding, Exalted: Infernals, WoD: Gypsies, vagina dentata on the back of Clanbook: Tzimisce so it had to be sold in a black baggie at Hastings, etc. etc. etc."
"No, I mean they didn't hire transphobes and make sniggering jokes about other people."
"How the heck do you know that none of their freelancers and devs were transphobic?  It's not like transgender characters were in their books for the first decade at least.  And sniggering jokes were (and are) common place, they're just at groups you don't mind being ridiculed so you don't notice or care.  Say hello to the new edgelords, same as the old edgelords."
"Well Zak S.-"
"Oh for fuck's sake.  Just say RPG Hitler and be done with it, because your argument is just Godwin's Law in a different dress."
"If you listen to David Hill-"
"Why?  All I know about the guy is he burned a lot of people on Kickstarter.  Multiple times.  But I'm supposed to take him at his word now because RPG Hitler?"
"Well Ken Hite-"
"Is a guy who likes making games and wants to make some money doing it.  You want him to eat, nuWW is helping him do that.  You want nuWW to improve itself, hiring Ken Hite is a way to do that.  You feel guilty over liking a company (now companies) that have been making games where you play super powered assholes for over two decades, bashing on every little move nuWW makes won't change the fact you had fun playing a metaphorical rapist/junkie in Vampire.  For fuck's sake it's really simple: if you don't like company X for reasons, don't buy their product.  But quit trying to shame other people into joining your self-righteous little crusade.  People having fun will trump anything you or anyone else says anyway, and meanwhile the company can and will change, and the war for social justice won't matter nearly as much as sales."

I finally got around to reading the playtest scenario.  Nope.  

When was the last time you remember Venger using the phrase "inappropriate content?"  Exactly.  This goes too far for me personally and the RPG hobby/industry/community as a whole, I hope.  I'm distancing myself from everything White Wolf starting now.  If you want to know more, feel free to read my blog.

VS

Thanks, Voros, Snowman. Sounds like a true trainwreck. Almost makes me want to start a facebook account just to get a look at it.

To save anyone the waste of time of reading that whole Facebook thread, just read san dee jota's last post here. It sums the whole thing up nicely.

I skimmed the playtest, and I really don't care for it, but it isn't half as offensive as Holden's behavior on Facebook. It's ironic that the smoking gun against Zak being a harasser was him using social media to alert people to someone he was in a disagreement with, yet Holden eagerly uses his accounts to recruit people to dogpile Rein-Hagan. Holden is exactly what he claims Zak S. is.

Quote from: Vile Jester;970320I like the "You Are What You Eat" principle in terms of having something to mechanically reflect that vampires are supposed to be taking something a little bit more than your average blood drive from their victims. It was previously kinda covered the the treatment of the "Blood Pool", but that ended up feeling like a gas meter the same way you say this feels like grabbing power ups...

Anything you think might mitigate that?

It might be interesting to match the temporary boost a vampire gets with a permanent decline in the victim. The vampire gets +1 to Presence for the next scene, but the victim permanently loses a dot of Presence. With the old game, you could just take a small amount of blood from each member of your herd a day and feel you weren't doing much harm. This would make it clear that the blood drain is symbolic of the fact you are slowly consuming their soul.

Like I said, I'm just not into running a vampire game anymore, but I might take that approach if I was.

I met Mark in an online Q&A for a Kickstarter for one of his newer games he was trying to launch. Nice guy with a great sense of humor.

He doesn't deserve the crap those people gave him on Facebook. He deserves the games that he creates to succeed.

I will always remember my conversation with him as a great experience. I learned a lot of things from it. And have always wished him the best. Regardless of our differing tastes.

Vampire: The Masquerade would have been a very different game. If he had been the one in control. It would have evolved over time to reflect that. And I would have really loved to have seen the fruits of Mark's vision.

Instead. We got the inmates running the asylum. After Mark was driven out.

OPP and their freelancers are still those inmates. And apparently. They haven't learned a thing from their continual string of failures. From the fact that they drove the original White Wolf into the ground.