TheRPGSite

Quote from: Omega;961922Probably all written in the female pronoun... (Trail of Cthulhu)

WOD and Hite deserve eachother.

Quote from: Ulairi;961932why does that matter?

Quote from: K Peterson;961960C'mon, now. You can at least make an effort to google some shit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Hite

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;961963If I want to play vampires struggling to maintain their humanity...

Quote from: Dumarest;961966Added to my list of Sentences I Never Expected to Hear in My Life.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;961974Don't care for his GUMSHOE politics.

Quote from: Baulderstone;961978What are his GUMSHOE politics? All I know about his politics is that he is a Ted Cruz fan, which isn't something that endears anyone to me, but it isn't something I care about when I buy a game.

Quote from: Baulderstone;961978What are his GUMSHOE politics? All I know about his politics is that he is a Ted Cruz fan, which isn't something that endears anyone to me, but it isn't something I care about when I buy a game.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;962009His writing isn't particularly politicised as such, but one of his games made reference to 'Bush's War', which somebody on the right objected to somewhere in a review or some such. The publisher then responded that Hite was a 'staunch Republican' IIRC, and I think the label stuck with some on the left. Probably not the best idea to make personal politics public, I guess.

With regards to his writing of Vampire, it's a curious choice as I'm sure he has been a critic of the game in the past. His writing style is energetic, but I hope he doesn't take heed of people who sometimes characterise him as a 'zany writer'. He's not really, and he's usually at his best when he keeps things straight and informative. He can also be a bit flighty - presenting ideas at a rate of knots without fully fleshing them out. Then again, he is an authoritative voice in horror rpgs, so if he piques an interest in gamers then it is a good thing.

Quote from: Ronin;962018It does "pique" my interest. But I will have to see what comes of it. It does raise my interest from 0, to a 5 though. (assuming 1-10 scale)

Quote from: Future Villain Band;962021He hasn't made much of a secret of his politics on the podcast he does with Robin Laws, and they've talked about it in the context of American politics a bunch.  Even if I had a problem with them - which I don't - like you said, he's an authoritative voice in horror in the hobby.  Everybody who hasn't should dig up a copy of Nightmares of Mine by ICE back in the day.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;962022That's the curious thing though isn't it? It's an announcement that generally attracts people who generally don't like Vampire. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;962026What do they hope to accomplish with another edition? If they make any changes they will alienate the existing fan base. I seem to recall everyone complaining about the post-apocalypse one world of darkness retool when it was announced. The iphone apps were not impressive.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;962021He hasn't made much of a secret of his politics on the podcast he does with Robin Laws, and they've talked about it in the context of American politics a bunch.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;962021Everybody who hasn't should dig up a copy of Nightmares of Mine by ICE back in the day.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962048(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_nQxL7XUAAZn61.jpg)

Nothing says #Angst like a flowchart.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962048Funny you mention this, because it was in one of those podcasts where he definitively stated that #Vampires are rapists, which means by his own admission he's working on a game where you play supernatural rapists!

Really curious how he's going to square that away.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962048Did so, wasn't impressed.

What did you find impressive about it?

Quote from: Ulairi;961924Bruce Baugh is throwing a hissy fit over it. I'm going to buy the game just because of that.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;962009His writing isn't particularly politicised as such, but one of his games made reference to 'Bush's War', which somebody on the right objected to somewhere in a review or some such. The publisher then responded that Hite was a 'staunch Republican' IIRC, and I think the label stuck with some on the left. Probably not the best idea to make personal politics public, I guess.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;962023I think most of that stuff got reprinted in GURPS Horror 3E and 4E, which is good, because the original Nightmares of Mine is hard to find nowadays. (I found a copy at Half Price Books in May 2000. Got it signed by Hite in November 2007. No, you can't have it. :) )

Quote from: AaronBrown99;962093He used 'she' as the default pronoun in at least one book, jarring the the flow of the text and causing his writing to lack clarity and precision. Some RPG buyers don't appreciate that kind of progressive 'point scoring', and won't buy or play games like that.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962048Funny you mention this, because it was in one of those podcasts where he definitively stated that #Vampires are rapists, which means by his own admission he's working on a game where you play supernatural rapists!

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962097I think Ken Hite is a superlative game designer, but my confidence in VtM 5e being a worthwhile game is low, because it seems like a bit of a tough needle to thread. If they successfully grapple with the problems Ken H has with the concept of Vampire protagonists, it may be precisely the answer that will turn off historical fans of the game.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962097I think Ken Hite is a superlative game designer, but my confidence in VtM 5e being a worthwhile game is low, because it seems like a bit of a tough needle to thread.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;962101I think this is the key -- he's a game designer.  Here's the thing -- if you paid me money, like real money, the kind of money a software company can pay, as opposed to what passes for wages in the TTRPG hobby, I'd write whatever the fuck you want.  I could /hate/ vampires, and if you paid me a decent salary, I would write huge paeans to their glory.  So I don't see what his personal feelings have to do with it in the long run.  I don't like D&D 5e, but if somebody was willing to pay me the ducats, I'd write whatever you want about it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;962096To me this makes as much sense as people who don't buy RPGs because they think the writer is too conservative, the content isn't sufficiently progressive or said something they didn't like. But either way, he was just one person at the company. They probably had a style guide and he was following it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;962034There is however, a general feedback that the various 20th Anniversary editions (which are pretty much the de facto 4th editions of each respective game, regardless of what the blurb says) is that the books are alienating to new audiences simply because the books are too big. Any attempt to make more accessible core books is not a bad thing in my view. White Wolf also cited the tagline "One World of Darkness' as a line goal - which implies making the game more international in scope whilst also removing the confusion of the Old/New WoD lines (which they have already done by way of having 'New World of Darkness' become 'Chronicles of Darkness' instead). The main money spinner of the IP is deemed to lie in online gaming and things like TV and movies, so there would be a drive towards integrating these things with a new edition of the game too.

QuoteFrom my own perspective, I would like to see more stripped down core rule books again anyway. I'm a bit of a closet Old School Gamer, but my favourite editions of Vampire are still the earlier ones. The reason is nuanced: the original seven Clans actually reflected real world society - Brujah were left wing socialists and anarchists, Venture were right wing conservatives and the other Clans were all recognisable stereotypes of social strata that we see in real world politics. Because of this there was a degree of satirical content in the game ('You are the monsters!' - presenting how we look at different stratifications of society in a stereotyped and fearful way) that ascended a little above mere genre simulation. Recent editions added more Clans, which were poorly judged in some cases, and the game's more thoughtful aspects became more diluted into being a more generic game about playing vampires, with a heavy backstory and metaphor, than an observation on our own culture.  

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962048Funny you mention this, because it was in one of those podcasts where he definitively stated that #Vampires are rapists, which means by his own admission he's working on a game where you play supernatural rapists!

Really curious how he's going to square that away.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;962055Oh look, mechanized roleplaying, where the designers force a playstyle, rather than let it flow (or not) naturally.  Like the Humanity track worked SO WELL!

Quote from: Ulairi;962111Future Villian Band is saying over on the big purple that we don't like Ken Hite because he used female pronouns. One nitwit said that. The rest of us are pretty supportive. But, good to throw the rest of us under the bus there man.


I'm going to buy two copies just to support Mr. Hite and to enjoy it being a success and pissing off all the right people.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;962117I was also complaining about their drama, and later I added that this thread had not devolved into those complaints anywhere near as much as the one on RPG.net.  (And it's been more than one person.)  My post is really about the fact that I'd really like is a forum where I could have a conversation about shit involving -- well, anything, at this point -- without having to hear either about how white guys are an endangered species due to SJW predation, or that all gamers are basement dwelling rapists and Klan members.  

I have not yet found that forum.  If somebody knows of it, and doesn't think I'll shit it up too much, I'd love to know if it's out there.  I mean, holy shit, does the constant identity politics get fucking old.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;962101Here's the thing -- if you paid me money, like real money, the kind of money a software company can pay, as opposed to what passes for wages in the TTRPG hobby, I'd write whatever the fuck you want.  I could /hate/ vampires, and if you paid me a decent salary, I would write huge paeans to their glory.  So I don't see what his personal feelings have to do with it in the long run.  I don't like D&D 5e, but if somebody was willing to pay me the ducats, I'd write whatever you want about it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;962131Curiosity piqued. But where the fuck is my C:tD 20! :mad:

Quote from: AaronBrown99;962105A given person's buying criteria doesn't have to make sense to you, it's an individual thing.

I did see the WW style guide in the late 90s, and it specifically called for using incorrect pronouns like that. Oh well.

Quote from: remial;962057why is Bruce upset?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;962075Kenneth Hite's problem is he is a fully matured adult capable of separating his personal politics from the content of his entertainment and games.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962097Or, you know, they come up with another angle.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;962101if you paid me money, like real money, the kind of money a software company can pay, as opposed to what passes for wages in the TTRPG hobby, I'd write whatever the fuck you want.

Quote from: Baulderstone;962106The early supplements were about playing vampires in the real world. Characters in Chicago by Night were largely defined by the real world ideologies of the characters and the background of their human lives. As the line wore on, everything became defined by the insular terms of vampire society. "I'm playing an Antitribu Tzimisce Primogen." The real world began to fade out of the game and it became all about the Sabbat and Camarilla fighting each other.

Quote from: Baulderstone;962106Why does he need to square it away? The fact that vampires preying humans was horrific was a central conceit of the game at the start. You need to feed on humans to sate your bloodlust so you don't get hungry, lose control and do even more horrific things. It was all spelled out pretty clearly.

Quote from: Baulderstone;962106I agree the Humanity track/Frenzy mechanic never worked well, but I think it was just poorly calibrated, not a bad idea.

Quote from: Ulairi;962111Future Villian Band is saying over on the big purple that we don't like Ken Hite because he used female pronouns. One nitwit said that.

Quote from: Ulairi;962111I'm going to buy two copies just to support Mr. Hite and to enjoy it being a success and pissing off all the right people.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962163I feel the same, but it doesn't look like they've done any better at calibrating it this time around.

Quote from: Voros;962161If it's a completely personal decision you can all do us the favour of keeping your obsessive politics out this thread then.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;962093He used 'she' as the default pronoun in at least one book, jarring the the flow of the text and causing his writing to lack clarity and precision. Some RPG buyers don't appreciate that kind of progressive 'point scoring', and won't buy or play games like that.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;962166No. If me claiming to appreciate correct English is obsessive, you need a fainting couch.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;962167Can't tell if trolling or just Stormfront.....

Quote from: Voros;962173No dude he's just all about defending the Queen's English. For realz. Looking forward to his future rants and boycotts of those who use split infinitives. He must hate Star Trek.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;962167Can't tell if trolling or just Stormfront.....

Quote from: AaronBrown99;962177Neither. You can read right? I just said above that when RPG writers use incorrect pronouns, it disrupts the flow of the text. To do that for no good reason is something I don't support.

Why is this rankling you so?

Also, I'm fine with the Classic Traveller 'he or she', which is common enough.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;962182Ah, so you're a Grammar Nazi then....

Quote from: Doc Sammy;962185Regardless of pronoun usage, Martin Ericsson is still a douchebag and he will not get any money from me.

Quote from: CRKrueger;962197You could buy the whole line or hijack a shipment to prevent people from buying it, Martin Ericsson gets paid either way, it's not like he gets a percentage or something.

So basically you're boycotting a company because of the opinions of someone in the company.  How...SJW of you. :D

Quote from: Future Villain Band;962117I have not yet found that forum.  If somebody knows of it, and doesn't think I'll shit it up too much, I'd love to know if it's out there.  I mean, holy shit, does the constant identity politics get fucking old.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962163Because Ken and Zak are pals (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?803475-Kenneth-Hite-is-the-lead-designer-on-Vampire-The-Masquerade-5e&p=21069603#post21069603).

Quote from: Baulderstone;962106The anniversary books certainly seem unfriendly to newcomers, and as someone the was only interested in the game during its very early stages, I have absolutely interest in Vampire with all the toppings included.



I get what you are saying. The early supplements were about playing vampires in the real world. Characters in Chicago by Night were largely defined by the real world ideologies of the characters and the background of their human lives. As the line wore on, everything became defined by the insular terms of vampire society. "I'm playing an Antitribu Tzimisce Primogen." The real world began to fade out of the game and it became all about the Sabbat and Camarilla fighting each other.

Adding the Sabbat really did drain the focus of the game as well. It was more interesting when players were introduced into Camarilla society, with its delicate balance between the establishment and anarchs. It was a society on the brink of a revolution, and the players would have to pick a side and hope their side one once it broke out. It was a bleak setting, but it felt like the players were in a position to play a pivotal role. With the Sabbat added, suddenly you were playing in a game where the revolution happened 500 years ago, and was still happening. It was ongoing slog that made it easy to have your combat monster get into fights, but nothing felt consequential.

It also shifted the game from a local focus to a global one. When I ran Vampire for the first time 1991, I set the game in the place I was living. Early Vampire gave he sense that every city was a world unto itself. Having a single city, and one the players all knew, as the focus made the game seem more real, and it made the players matter a lot more. Once the game shifted to a world war between the Camarilla and the Sabbat, city politics became small potatoes.

You have a good point about the constant addition of new clans diluting the game. The original clans were all clear archetypes. The later ones were often flavorful, but didn't have a clear place in the game.

As I said earlier, I don't know if I am really interested in getting into vampire again anyway. I ran a very successful game of it in 1991-92 and it was all diminishing returns for me. It's possible though that having Hite back can renew my interest. Hite is fascinated by real world history and applying it to his games. He has a general lack of interest in games taking place in completely imaginary worlds. Personally, I like both, but the appeal of oWoD for me lay in having the fantastical going on in the real world. A WoD with Hite in charge seems unlikely to drift completely out of the real world and into its own imaginary conflicts. He seems like the right guy to deliver the WoD that I wanted 25 years ago. It's just a question of whether it is something I still want.



Why does he need to square it away? The fact that vampires preying humans was horrific was a central conceit of the game at the start. You need to feed on humans to sate your bloodlust so you don't get hungry, lose control and do even more horrific things. It was all spelled out pretty clearly.



I agree the Humanity track/Frenzy mechanic never worked well, but I think it was just poorly calibrated, not a bad idea.

The idea behind it is just good, old-fashioned resource management. You build up your blood pool, and can choose to expend it to do cool things. If you expend it too far, you risk bad stuff happening. Players generally get into frenzy territory because they put themselves there. On the whole, it's not really much different than using a magic system where magical mishaps occur if the players get greedy. There is certainly more player control than in Call of Cthulhu where Sanity checks come at you out of nowhere.

I don't think the numbers and probabilities ever worked well to deliver the game they wanted, but I think it was a cool idea. It's just playing Stormbringer, with every player having their own Stormbringer. If you want its cool powers, you better keep that thing fed.

Quote from: Snowman0147;962149Don't think that is gonna happen.  I think all the zirs and Exalted put a end to that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;962184Jesus Wept.

In an RPG book there is only three reasons to use a pronoun.
1. Referring to an NPC in the world, in which case you use the appropriate gender pronoun of that NPC, whatever that is (oldsters might remember in WFRP1 the Slaaneshi pronoun "shem").
2. Referring to the players in an example.
3. Referring to the characters in an example.

Using all he or all she when referring to players or characters is just stupid.  Neither one reflects reality, so you mix them, like B/X and AD&D did.

Quote from: Voros;962165And you're basing that on what exactly?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;962167Martin Ericsson is on my shit-list of "Goths I will never give money to"

Quote from: camazotz;962442using "she" to refer to a male specific character would drive me nuts.

Quote from: camazotz;962442Is that what Ken did?

Quote from: Baulderstone;962450Night's Black Agents relies almost entirely on second person. When third person is called for, such as in examples, there is a mix of male and female examples, but the genders remain consistent and clear. You'd need to have a learning disability of some kind to have trouble reading the book.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;962470Aaaaaaand...this...

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?803533-So-let-s-talk-about-the-moral-implications-of-supporting-NuWW-and-harassers-generally

Have any of these fucktards ever experienced true hardship? It must be hell (or kinda cool) being able to spawn monsters out of your ass like a rectal Pokéball.

Quote from: Baulderstone;962450Night's Black Agents relies almost entirely on second person. When third person is called for, such as in examples, there is a mix of male and female examples, but the genders remain consistent and clear. You'd need to have a learning disability of some kind to have trouble reading the book.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962449Now you know how people who want you to use their preferred pronouns feel.

QuoteMind you there are limits, and I'm damn close to calling everyone #Groot at this point, but the fact this is an issue is the epitome of #FirstWorldProblems.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;962470Aaaaaaand...this...

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?803533-So-let-s-talk-about-the-moral-implications-of-supporting-NuWW-and-harassers-generally

Have any of these fucktards ever experienced true hardship?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;962472Creepy post count, sir! More importantly, how goid is NBA? It looks hyper-focused but damn cool.

Quote from: Snowman0147;962502Wow if this keep going I would have to buy the books.

Quote from: Snowman0147;962502Wow if this keep going I would have to buy the books.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;962524I know, right? The amount of overblown butthurt practically steals the money from my wallet and hands it to WW.

I came so close to posting how their thread mentioned some of my favorite authors and thanking them for pushing me back into the arms of WW, but I couldn't find the snarkiest words at the time. Now the thread's closed. :(

Quote from: rgalex;962394They are taking their sweet time with C:tD20, but the pdf is out to backers so at least there is something to show.  Now, how long it takes to get to print from here, that's a different story.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;962434@BoxCrayonTales, thanks for linking to my review of Feed.

To be honest Feed is an interesting RPG, pushing the idea of a vampire's humanity and links that with game mechanics. Without linking the mechanics the way that it has, it might have fallen to the pure "story-teller," type RPG.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;962524I know, right? The amount of overblown butthurt practically steals the money from my wallet and hands it to WW.

I came so close to posting how their thread mentioned some of my favorite authors and thanking them for pushing me back into the arms of WW, but I couldn't find the snarkiest words at the time. Now the thread's closed. :(

Quote from: AsenRG;962506You mean they feel mildly amused;)?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;962470Aaaaaaand...this...

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?803533-So-let-s-talk-about-the-moral-implications-of-supporting-NuWW-and-harassers-generally

Have any of these fucktards ever experienced true hardship? It must be hell (or kinda cool) being able to spawn monsters out of your ass like a rectal Pokéball.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;962472Creepy post count, sir! More importantly, how good is NBA? It looks hyper-focused but damn cool.

Quote from: Ulairi;962538I would give all the monies in the world to have the book powered by GURPS and watch the big purple collapse in on itself.

Quote from: Voros;962173No dude he's just all about defending the Queen's English. For realz. Looking forward to his future rants and boycotts of those who use split infinitives. He must hate Star Trek.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;962609Am I the only person who doesnt care about the artist behind the art? I'm not sure that everyone agrees or there's been some kind of irrefutable philosophical proof that you need to rigorously evaluate the morality of every creator behind the things they produce. Zack's stuff can be good even if he isn't, and if he's committed some henious crime I think the courts would do a better job of determining his guilt then reading internet comments. Just my opinion.

Quote from: Voros;962748Hite is no dummy.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962745Aaand I take it back. The changes to the system are so close to the ones I would have made that I'm slightly irritated I didn't share them sooner. Focusing on #Hunger and how it grows, triggers clan flaws, and powers disciplines is the right play by far (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/1017563-world-of-darkness-berlin-2017?p=1092728#post1092728). Yet the system (so far) still involves far too much resource management (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2K7ygx29YDpcDNtME9TU0dwQXM/view).

Overall however I'm extremely impressed.

Quote from: Omega;961922Probably all written in the female pronoun... (Trail of Cthulhu)

WOD and Hite deserve eachother.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;962812The other vampire game I mentioned before already implemented a similar approach to hunger with less resource management. No system satisfies everyone, but I think it is better at supporting storytelling than the storyteller system.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962801But his expertise is history, not mechanics. And it still doesn't change he fact that someone who once said "vampires are rapists" is now the lead designer on a game where you play vampires.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;962902Why should is be an issue?  And no I'm not being facetious, Vampires ARE rapists, abusers, stalkers, they've been a metaphorical analog for abusive men for as long as they were around.

Quote from: Baulderstone;962551Just to note, the quip you are responding to here was actually made by Anon, not me.

QuotePersonally, I find Zak to be an obnoxious asshole on the Internet a lot of the time, but someone who makes interesting game products. There seems to be some assumption in that thread that buying his game products connects to him being an asshole. I'm not convinced.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;962609Am I the only person who doesnt care about the artist behind the art? I'm not sure that everyone agrees or there's been some kind of irrefutable philosophical proof that you need to rigorously evaluate the morality of every creator behind the things they produce. Zack's stuff can be good even if he isn't, and if he's committed some henious crime I think the courts would do a better job of determining his guilt then reading internet comments. Just my opinion.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962745Aaand I take it back. The changes to the system are so close to the ones I would have made that I'm slightly irritated I didn't share them sooner. Focusing on #Hunger and how it grows, triggers clan flaws, and powers disciplines is the right play by far (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/1017563-world-of-darkness-berlin-2017?p=1092728#post1092728). Yet the system (so far) still involves far too much resource management (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2K7ygx29YDpcDNtME9TU0dwQXM/view).

Overall however I'm extremely impressed.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962801But his expertise is history, not mechanics. And it still doesn't change he fact that someone who once said "vampires are rapists" is now the lead designer on a game where you play vampires.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;962812I'm not impressed. The storyteller system isn't that good to begin with, so improving it isn't saying much. Existing fans will either hate it due to nostalgia or love it due to slavish loyalty.

The other vampire game I mentioned before already implemented a similar approach to hunger with less resource management. No system satisfies everyone, but I think it is better at supporting storytelling than the storyteller system.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;962910Vampires were originally an explanation for disease invented by medieval peasants ignorant of germ theory. Only in modern times have vampires become a metaphor for addiction and unhealthy relationships.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;962910Vampires were originally an explanation for disease invented by medieval peasants ignorant of germ theory. Only in modern times have vampires become a metaphor for addiction and unhealthy relationships.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;962609Am I the only person who doesnt care about the artist behind the art? I'm not sure that everyone agrees or there's been some kind of irrefutable philosophical proof that you need to rigorously evaluate the morality of every creator behind the things they produce. Zack's stuff can be good even if he isn't, and if he's committed some henious crime I think the courts would do a better job of determining his guilt then reading internet comments. Just my opinion.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;962902Why should is be an issue?  And no I'm not being facetious, Vampires ARE rapists, abusers, stalkers, they've been a metaphorical analog for abusive men for as long as they were around.

Quote from: Gwarh;962894Yeah sadly I think you'll be right.

I like Ken Hite's work allot, but he's become an SJW more or less it seems to me as time goes on...

...but I couldn't take Robin any more and finally unsubscribed to the show.

Quote from: Voros;963056Must be tough going through life with such an inability to even hear other people hold different political opinions.

Quote from: Voros;963056Must be tough going through life with such an inability to even hear other people hold different political opinions.

Quote from: Nexus;963059It does depend though. Was the show about gaming and a host turned it into a political soap box? Then I could understand dropping it. People have groused at posters in this thread about dragging their political beliefs into a gaming discussion. Maybe the guy was overly enthusiastic about pushing his agenda/ideal in the wrong venue. Its his show and he has a right to talk but no one obligated to listen. I wouldn't want to listen to a show on, say history, where one of the host was constantly spouting idea that annoyed or even pissed me off.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;962529Speaking of which, I wanted to give you some minor feedback on your review. You claimed that the vampire's hunger for blood is not traditionally portrayed as an addiction metaphor, but a published paper (http://revistamedicinacine.usal.es/en/volumenes/volumen7/num2/1137) refutes that assertion by analyzing the 80's vampire movie revival.

I would personally argue that the way the vampire's hunger is portrayed in media bears more resemblance to an addiction than to mundane hunger. Even reports of homeless people eating rats (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/aug/12/homeless-poles-rough-sleepers) mentions that they barbecued the rats before eating them, rather than eating them alive like Gollum in LotR.

Quote from: Voros;963062I believe you're the one following me around thread from thread constantly complaining that I hurt your feelings.

Quote from: Baulderstone;963067The show was never entirely about gaming. It's divided into different segments with politics being an occasional specific segment that is easily skipped. I've never viewed the political discussions as that heated. It's a Canadian liberal and and American Ted Cruz supporter politely discussing politics without raising their voices. It is still pretty easy to just skip political segments though.

Hite is a lot more likely to drag politics into other segments, he talks about history a lot, and it often goes with the territory.


Not that anyone has to like the show, and I am sure there are other reasons that he might be annoyed by Laws. It's just that its a rare case of a show where you get a conservative and liberal talking amicably these days.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;963073From the review of Feed:
"...addiction is mentioned throughout (examples) and is a core mechanic of the game. As blood is usually considered subsistence rather than addictive in regards to vampires, it took me awhile to get past this concept and understand that it is the most important mechanic of the game."

@BoxedCrayonTales, the above is what I wrote. The Feed RPG, Agrees with you. My view is that subsistence trumps addiction, usually, when we are referencing vampires. Even those modern glittery vampires, must still drink blood for subsistence, even if it is animal blood in order to un-live.

Vampirism takes form as a physical condition, blood is required to maintain it and to survive. Being hungry... Being thirsty... Is easy to confuse with addiction and sometimes is, but these are physical needs which must be met to survive... Hunger is not mundane urge in any sense. There are lots of examples of vampires surviving without blood too, but usually these are noted as extraordinary among vampires. I would have read the article, but the page was scattered... I also think I would have disagreed with it anyhow.
And you totally lost me on the BBQ rat point.

Quote from: Nexus;963079You aren't wrong in that people in general seem to be more touchy and thin skinnned about politics lately in the US. but I just don't feel what was posted about the show merited criticism.

I haven't seen the show so I can't comment on its nature, quality or how compartmentalized the hosts kept their outlook from different areas of the show but I also can't fault someone for choosing not to watch something for whatever reason even finding the politics annoying like Gwarh did. There are some views I find off putting and I don't want to deal with them when I'm looking for entertainment. And there wasn't a call to ban Laws or kick him off the program someone choose not to watch. I mean you can skip over politicized stuff here or its a couple of lines you glance at in passing yet some still don't like it. I'm just saying that criticizing someone for not watching a show for reasons you don't approve of seems unnecessarily argumentative particularly when that show and person are side topics at best.

And its easy to miss how something might feel heavy handed, overblown or obnoxious to someone who doesn't agree with it or actively feels the  opposite particularly when it comes to politics.

And I realize I've jumped on the vicious circle of finger wagging ("Why do you care" "Why do you care that I care?"....) perhaps defeating my own point.But if nothing else I kind of respect it when someone just stops watching a program they don't like instead of hatewatching so they can jump online and continuously trash it these days. :D

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963091I failed to properly articulate myself. When vampires are shown hungry in media, it does not resemble how humans act when hungry. When humans get hungry, we either get food from the store, the fridge, or butcher and cook it. When vampires get hungry, this generally overrides their higher reasoning and they will attack the nearest living thing. When they do not immediately attack at the sight of blood, it seems to require great willpower. Indeed, a vampire that is hunting often demonstrates less cunning and more aggression than an animal predator.

You can see this in recent vampire media. In Let Me In, vampires have great difficulty controlling their need to feed to the point of cannibalizing themselves if they are bleeding. In Being Human, either version, the need to feed is most clearly portrayed like an addiction in terms of its damaging effects on the vampire and those around them.

I've seen various depictions such as vampires surviving solely on blood (despite its poor nutritional value, in the case of scifi vamps) and vampires needing blood only to supplement specific protein deficiencies without which they would suffer anemia or insanity or something. While vampires might need blood to satisfy some nutritional need, the way they approach feeding typically bears more resemblance to addiction than to hunger. That feeding often has a sensual component further distances it from simple hunger.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Media portrays feeding as mixed metaphors: nutrition, addiction, pleasure. Feed is no different in this regard as vampires are portrayed as having both hunger and addiction; it just makes the mixed metaphors explicit game mechanics.

EDIT: I don't really like tvtropes, but it calls this phenomenon "horror hunger (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HorrorHunger)" and explains it better than I can.

Quote from: Baulderstone;963112Sure. I didn't actually criticize Gwarh. He can listen to what he wants. I was just pointing out that your speculation wasn't actually borne out on the show. And I am not faulting you for speculating either. Just continuing the conversation.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;963124IMO, most vampire fiction does not incorporate addiction (that is my point), in so much that blood is a only vice.

QuoteBlood is a base need, how much the particular vampire enjoys it or gets out of it greatly varies... But you can survive without an addiction and vampires usually can't survive without blood. And if they do it is noted in whatever the media as being an extraordinary thing.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963075Feelings?  Nice try. You're the one that's always posting about other people posting, pretending you're not passive-aggressively posting for the exact same reason.

Take that last post.  The only reason you're posting to claim Gwarh has an "inability to even hear other people hold different political opinions" is because you don't like his.  

You're literally doing the exact same thing as he is...and that's half your damn posts.  It's more than an MO, it's practically a fetish.  The hilarious part is, you think people don't notice.  There's at least three people I can think of, who've called you out on that bullshit already.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963143I suspect this may be a simple personal hangup. If vampirism was not written as an addiction metaphor, what would be the alternative? Racism, misogyny, homophobia, disease, et al? Would that alternative be more or less interesting?

Quote from: Voros;963159That is what I was thinking. When I read the early vampire story Carmilla by Le Fanu vampirism was a pretty clear metaphor for lesbianism.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963161It's porn for women, without having to be diving into erotica.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963161It's porn for women, without having to be diving into erotica.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963161It's porn for women, without having to be diving into erotica.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;963156The original literary vampires' feedings, as opposed to ones based on local folklore, were sexual metaphors.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;963167Lesbian vampires are for guys as well (possibly primarily for guys).

Quote from: Voros;963151Sure, sure. My political posts boil down to 'political violence isn't acceptable on the left or right.' Only on the net could that be considered an intolerant stance.

Quote from: Voros;963151But your real issue with me seems to be that I thought the rules for 1e AD&D were a mess and that Gygax could be a self-important blowhard. Even though I love his work on Shrine of the Kuo-Toa and Dungeonland/The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, probably my favourite old school modules.

Quote from: Voros;963151Ever since then you and Gronan have been sniping ay my heels like puppydogs. Gronan makes a bit of sense as he knew Gygax, what your problem is, beyond having too much time on your hands so wanting to pick fights all the time on here, is beyond me.

Quote from: Voros;963151I doubt you actually think stating that a Ted Cruz supporter is a SJW is reasonable statement, but you gotta work your trollboner regardless.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963206Offtopic:  Actually, women are the greater consumer of lesbian porn of late.  Boggled my mind.

This is a NSFW link, but because of the topiic, but not the imagery:  http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/11/18/american-girls-most-likely-to-search-lesbian-on-pornhub/ (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/11/18/american-girls-most-likely-to-search-lesbian-on-pornhub/)

Quote from: CRKrueger;963216Actually a lot of that is male/female couples watching "entry-level" porn together or guys trying to ease their girlfriend into a threesome.

Quote from: Nexus;963234Oh? Where did learn that?
]

Quote from: CRKrueger;963243Well, aside from lots of anecdotal experience, I read one of those sex studies, can't remember if it was Playboy or not.  Also anecdotal, but I think also was in Cosmo that lesbian videos are good "training videos" for boyfriends on how to properly use your tongue and fingers around a vagina.

The narrative of course from the info will be enforcing the side of sexual and gender fluidity but there are other explanations.  For example, there's about 50,000 times more lesbian videos than romantic/erotic/sensual straight couples videos.  Unless there's a "let's see what we can stuff up there" video, most lesbian porn tends to be slower and more romantic than standard porn.

What would be interesting is do a blind test and see if straight women liked videos with actual lesbians as much as they like videos with bisexual or bi-but-mostly-straight women.

How the hell did we het this far off topic...oh yeah vampires.  Fucking WW ruins everything. :D

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963143If vampirism was not written as an addiction metaphor, what would be the alternative? Racism, misogyny, homophobia, disease, et al? Would that alternative be more or less interesting?

Quote from: areallifetrex;963254Stories (or settings in this case) are rooted in human experience, and we can draw out similarities without them needed to be forced on us by author fiat. It doesn't need to be a metaphor for anything for it to say something real and interesting about the real world. Applicability, not allegory.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963298What does vampirism say about the real world? That society idolizes predators? That absolute power corrupts absolutely? That victims in abusive relationships are often unaware they are being abused? I do not feel like these metaphors are forced by author fiat. Addiction, corruption, abuse and so forth feels perfectly aligned with vampirism and provide pathos.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963298What does vampirism say about the real world? That society idolizes predators?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963298That absolute power corrupts absolutely?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963298That victims in abusive relationships are often unaware they are being abused?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963298I do not feel like these metaphors are forced by author fiat. Addiction, corruption, abuse and so forth feels perfectly aligned with vampirism and provide pathos.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963298Compare that to X-Men, which used Rogue (a girl who is isolated from others by her life-sucking touch she cannot turn off), Morlocks (circus freaks rejected by society because of shallow vanity) and Magneto (a survivor of the Holocaust turned hypocritical genocidal terrorist) as metaphors for ethnic and sexual minorities. The metaphor portrays these minorities as a clear danger to themselves and others, supporting bigotry rather than refuting it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963334Not society, but the biggest fans of the genre:  Women.  From Dracula to Lestat to Edward, to Christian Grey, the most popular of the genre have always been monsters who obsess over a woman to the point of abuse.

Women fans of Vampire fiction do not care about this, beyond how it affects the Heroine of the story.

Again, the fans do not care about this beyond how 'romantic' the writer can make it feel.

QuoteA genre that men favour almost exclusively, and tends to deal with a larger picture than Vampire fiction.

Quote from: Baulderstone;963390(https://frinkiac.com/meme/S06E19/908023.jpg?b64lines=IFlPVVUgS05PVywgVEhFIFJQRyBTSVRFIApUVVJORUQgSU5UTyBBIFdPTUVOJ1MgCiBFUk9USUNBIEZPUlVNIFNPIEdSQURVQUxMWSAKSSBESUROJ1QgRVZFTiBOT1RJQ0Uu)

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;963170despite his dingbat fucktard politics (Ted Cruz LOL)

Quote from: Willie the Duck;963340This sounds very much like you are basing this off some very two-dimensional stereotypes of women, and not based on any real specific women. Do you personally know any women like this?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;963340I can't speak for when the X-men were created, but the women-don't-read-comic-books idea has been outdated for a while.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963206Offtopic:  Actually, women are the greater consumer of lesbian porn of late.  Boggled my mind.

This is a NSFW link, but because of the topiic, but not the imagery:  http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/11/18/american-girls-most-likely-to-search-lesbian-on-pornhub/ (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/11/18/american-girls-most-likely-to-search-lesbian-on-pornhub/)

Quote from: Vile Jester;963411Wasn't previously aware of Hite, but like what I see. Already a fan of what they're saying about Hunger, Compulsions, and Composure. Leaves me very curious about how the next video game can handle it, though. Might have to resort to the ol' gas meter approach there, yeah?



Matches the results of studies on sexuality, though. Even self-identified straight women generally show a stronger sexual response to women than to men, just not so dramatic as self-identified lesbians. Hell, stronger toward bonobos than to men. Depressing stuff, I don't recommend looking it up without a dark sense of humor. Or the means to somehow turn gay.

Quote from: remial;962364the FIEND!  How dare Ken be friends with someone who fought back when TBP targeted his group, and used TBP's own tactics against them?  Doesn't he know any better?

Quote from: Gwarh;962894I like Ken Hite's work allot, but he's become an SJW more or less it seems to me as time goes on.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;962902Why should is be an issue?  And no I'm not being facetious, Vampires ARE rapists, abusers, stalkers, they've been a metaphorical analog for abusive men for as long as they were around.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;962910Vampires were originally an explanation for disease invented by medieval peasants ignorant of germ theory. Only in modern times have vampires become a metaphor for addiction and unhealthy relationships.

Quote from: AsenRG;962914Vampires were first a metaphor for sickness in the original tales. Most people haven't read them.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;962944'Vampires as rapists' is a metaphor that people can pick up on in the game. It's not the only metaphor, however, is not 'official' as an interpretation and much depends upon your own perspective.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963298What does vampirism say about the real world? That society idolizes predators? That absolute power corrupts absolutely? That victims in abusive relationships are often unaware they are being abused?

Quote from: Baulderstone;963314Back when Vampire first came out, before the metaplot, when a city was an entire campaign setting, I ran a game in a mid-sized city with an ineffectual Prince. The players all bristled at the oppression of the Prince and after a time, they overthrew him and took control of the city, striking a blow for freedom.

Of course, they were still vampires, and they needed mortals to feed on, which meant setting up systems to control them. They needed to deal with other vampires in the city causing trouble. They needed to deal with the vampire population growing unchecked with the prince gone.

Without any need for me to push them beyond simply presenting the problems, they slowly rebuilt the system that disgusted them, and didn't even realize what they were doing until they had just about finished the process. They were all darkly amused.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963334Not society, but the biggest fans of the genre:  Women.  From Dracula to Lestat to Edward, to Christian Grey, the most popular of the genre have always been monsters who obsess over a woman to the point of abuse.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;963340This sounds very much like you are basing this off some very two-dimensional stereotypes of women, and not based on any real specific women.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963334Do you personally know any women like this?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;963811I only care about what the #LeadDesigner thinks #Vampires are a #Metaphor for.

Quote from: AsenRG;963849And I don't, because in my game, vampires will be metaphors for whatever I decide they should be;).

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;963873Who cares, as long as you don't play as a supernatural rapist and then claim they're a metaphor for something else. Because the number of people I've seen use '#Vampires aren't sexual predators, just misunderstood', or even 'just playing my character', as justification for toxic behavior has been troublingly high. And most players will go by what's in the book. So this needs to be identified and addressed directly in an honest manner which enables players to deal with it safely and maturely.

So I'm intensely curious how someone who acknowledges #Vampires are rapists is going to handle this, and how the 'community' will respond.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963876This is why I prefer the addiction metaphor. Sex has no place at a gaming table.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963879Unless, of course, the people at the table agree they want it there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963879Unless, of course, the people at the table agree they want it there.

Quote from: Nexus;963887And make sure they get those damn d4s out of the way first!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963876This is why I prefer the addiction metaphor. Sex has no place at a gaming table.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;963873Who cares, as long as you don't play as a supernatural rapist and then claim they're a metaphor for something else. Because the number of people I've seen use '#Vampires aren't sexual predators, just misunderstood', or even 'just playing my character', as justification for toxic behavior has been troublingly high. And most players will go by what's in the book. So this needs to be identified and addressed directly in an honest manner which enables players to deal with it safely and maturely.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963898Will that be an order of Book of Erotic Fantasy, Encyclopaedia Arcane: Nymphology, or Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;963873Who cares, as long as you don't play as a supernatural rapist and then claim they're a metaphor for something else. Because the number of people I've seen use '#Vampires aren't sexual predators, just misunderstood', or even 'just playing my character', as justification for toxic behavior has been troublingly high. And most players will go by what's in the book. So this needs to be identified and addressed directly in an honest manner which enables players to deal with it safely and maturely.

QuoteSo I'm intensely curious how someone who acknowledges #Vampires are rapists is going to handle this, and how the 'community' will respond.

Quote from: Luca;963928Honest question: why are players (or anyone else, for that matter) supposed to learn how to deal with assholes by reading instructions from a book?

I'm not exactly one of those passive, shy guys; if someone gets on my nerves I make sure to let him know, and ok, I get it, I know that not everyone is like me, there might be other problems and situations etc. etc. but (and I'm telling this with the most neutral tone possible) if someone lets someone else abuse him (or her) because of what's written in a fucking book there are much deeper issues at work and some sidebar in an RPG manual isn't going to solve them.

We're talking basic social skills here; were I a writer, I would naturally assume that most of my readers have already developed them, and I'd think that asking me to keep in mind every possible fringe situation out there is grossly unfair.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;963876This is why I prefer the addiction metaphor. Sex has no place at a gaming table.

Quote from: Luca;963928Honest question: why are players (or anyone else, for that matter) supposed to learn how to deal with assholes by reading instructions from a book?

Quote from: Luca;963928if someone lets someone else abuse him (or her) because of what's written in a fucking book there are much deeper issues at work and some sidebar in an RPG manual isn't going to solve them.

Quote from: tenbones;963965I hope it comes out like this

What We Do In the Shadows
https://youtu.be/Cv568AzZ-i8

Quote from: CRKrueger;963977You mean you don't believe game designers should make sure they protect every type of person too fragile to interact unsupervised with their fellow human beings?

Quote from: CRKrueger;963977You mean you don't believe game designers should make sure they protect every type of person too fragile to interact unsupervised with their fellow human beings?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964024It certainly did at the LARPs I was a part of. And nuWW claims that 34% of players met a significant other through the game.

So good on you, but sex is pretty central to the product for everyone else.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;964044I tried to join vampire games in high school and could not stand the omnipresent freakishness. For example, one character's whole shtick was that he turned into mist and then re-materialized inside other people's body cavities. At first I thought it was just me, but after hearing so many horror stories of antisocial behavior I was given the impression that socially maladjusted misfits are the typical demographic of these games. No amount of warning labels are going to make an impression.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;963873So I'm intensely curious how someone who acknowledges #Vampires are rapists is going to handle this, and how the 'community' will respond.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964024It's not a matter of protecting the special snowflakes, because fuck'em. It's a matter of taking reasonable precautions in a game where players are expected to engage in problematic themes. Having too many controls is just as bad as having none at all, and too many people seem determined to pursue one of the two extremes.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964051Wait, so we can't play vampires now?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964024And this is why I'm worried.

It's not a matter of protecting the special snowflakes, because fuck'em. It's a matter of taking reasonable precautions in a game where players are expected to engage in problematic themes. Having too many controls is just as bad as having none at all, and too many people seem determined to pursue one of the two extremes.

Quote from: Nexus;964089How do you imagine such controls being implemented?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964091I've wanted a lot of unreasonable things from games and game designers over these years. But more built-in protections to make sure me and my friends don't misuse the game or get into territory the designers consider immoral was never something I wanted. If people want to introduce sex into their games, I really don't see the problem (nor do I see an issue if they want to avoid it). If sexy vampires can be a problem at your table, don't play sexy vampire games.

Quote from: Voros;964125Are people really arguing against GM tips for issues or trouble that may come up at the table? Seems like common sense and welcome for newbies to GMing.

Quote from: Ulairi;961924Bruce Baugh is throwing a hissy fit over it. I'm going to buy the game just because of that.

Quote from: Baulderstone;961931I really don't care about shit like how reading a book that isn't written in their prefered pronoun makes people like Omega suffer genitalia shrinkage from discomfort it causes to their fragile snowflake egos. Either it will be a useful book or it won't.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;962075Kenneth Hite's problem is he is a fully matured adult capable of separating his personal politics from the content of his entertainment and games. That and he once used the female pronoun in a book. Talk about an asshole.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;962093He used 'she' as the default pronoun in at least one book, jarring the the flow of the text and causing his writing to lack clarity and precision. Some RPG buyers don't appreciate that kind of progressive 'point scoring', and won't buy or play games like that.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;962489A quick search of my Trail of Cthulhu PDF indicates that:

1. If there's a specific person/character being referenced, the correctly gendered pronoun is used.
2. In all non-specific cases, the pronouns are (AFAICT) randomly alternated.
3. When an example involves two non-specific people/characters, it looks like Hite will specifically use different genders for each non-specific participant to add clarity to the description.

Quote from: Nexus;963055Which leads us to the really important question about this new edition: Can vampires boink and enjoy it?

Quote from: CRKrueger;963428Kenneth Hite is the lead designer for the new edition of Vampire...and has written some of the greatest gaming supplements in history.

Fun Fact: He also helped write Back East: The South for Deadlands which explains why the South ended slavery in Deadlands, the topic that draws Pinnacle no end of criticism, mostly from people who don't know it exists or never read it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964091I've wanted a lot of unreasonable things from games and game designers over these years. But more built-in protections to make sure me and my friends don't misuse the game or get into territory the designers consider immoral was never something I wanted.

Quote from: Omega;964160Ive noted it before. I've personally seen some designers obsess over this. Adding more and more rules to try and curb player personality issues.

Quote from: Voros;964125Are people really arguing against GM tips for issues or trouble that may come up at the table? Seems like common sense and welcome for newbies to GMing.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964162I think it is more the expectations that designers do it, than designers choosing to do it, that troubles me. Like I think it is fine if a director for a movie wants to make a family friendly film that kids won't find upsetting. But I get more irked when people complain because they were disturbed by the violence in an action movie and want someone to do something about it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964091I've wanted a lot of unreasonable things from games and game designers over these years. But more built-in protections to make sure me and my friends don't misuse the game or get into territory the designers consider immoral was never something I wanted.

Quote from: Voros;964125Are people really arguing against GM tips for issues or trouble that may come up at the table? Seems like common sense and welcome for newbies to GMing.

Quote from: Omega;964152Sorry. I didnt know pretentious use of the female pronoun made your penis grow. But rock on man if that turns you on. :confused:

And for the record. Using all male pronoun in a game is also annoying and sloppy. (Unless your game is never meant to be played by women ever...)

Quote from: Omega;964159So is he just writing the VTM stuff? Or will he be working on the other settings too. Could be interesting to see his takes on things like Wraith or Mage for example.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;964044I tried to join vampire games in high school and could not stand the omnipresent freakishness.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;964044after hearing so many horror stories of antisocial behavior I was given the impression that socially maladjusted misfits are the typical demographic of these games.

Quote from: CRKrueger;964047Which is why they should just write the game for players without personality disorders or that require medical attention.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964051Wait, so we can't play vampires now?

Quote from: AsenRG;964068OK, but what would "reasonable precautions" seem like, to you? And what would constitute "a failure to take reasonable precautions", to you?

Quote from: Nexus;964089How do you imagine such controls being implemented?

Quote from: Voros;964125Are people really arguing against GM tips for issues or trouble that may come up at the table? Seems like common sense and welcome for newbies to GMing.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964168For example, the #XCard is literally just the #Safeword ported over to tabletop, and I've found it highly useful in pushing boundaries because it leads to players being more willing to do so. On the other hand, simply advising a GM to exploit a player's fears for verisimilitude is irresponsible.
.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964168Just gonna point out now that the implementation and enforcement of written law is the foundation of #Western society.
.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964170The X card is something I've never really quite understood. Roleplaying isn't BDSM. Unless you are larping, where I could see actual dangerous situations arising that might require a safe word to distinguish between someone acting injured and someone really being injured, I am just not sure I understand the utility. Because in the context of a roleplaying game, an X card is just another way of saying "Hey I am not comfortable with that" (which I can already do by saying "Hey I am not comfortable with that"). Everyone I game with would respect someone's wishes if they ask us to stop doing something in game. But I think if I told my group we were going to use the X card, they would have a lot of trouble taking it seriously.

Personally, when it comes to the GM exploiting my fears for the purposes of a horror  game, I'm all on board. Again this is a game of imagination. If I am afraid of spiders, I don't mind the GM including spider encounters because he knows I will find it slightly unnerving. If he locked me in a room with real spiders, that would be different. And obviously if I were deeply traumatized by something involving spiders, I wouldn't want the GM exploiting that. But exploiting a trauma is different from exploiting a fear for a mild and imagined sense of horror.

Quote from: Snowman0147;964184How the fuck did we get here and can we get back on topic?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964024Having too many controls is just as bad as having none at all, and too many people seem determined to pursue one of the two extremes.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964162I think it is more the expectations that designers do it, than designers choosing to do it, that troubles me.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964212White Wolf has been doing it since the first game they released.

Quote from: Omega;964216How? I dont recall any mechanic or even GM advice in the game for that past the obligatory "this isnt real" disclaimers? Then again its been a decade or two since last looked at it much.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964222The Humanity Track tries to force players into playing the game the 'right way', and we suddenly have a group of players who want more, to the point of Exalted's Social 'Combat' garbage.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964170The X card is something I've never really quite understood. Roleplaying isn't BDSM.

Quote from: Nexus;964181I assume that, like the Red Rule, the thought is that having  a codified rule they can point too will empower people to speak up because game's designers have their back?

Quote from: Omega;964163See it more often in board game design like "How do I introduce a mechanic to stop players from talking to eachother during game play?" or "How do I introduce a mechanic to stop players from becoming leaders in a co-op game?" and so on.

Quote from: Omega;964163And they allways ignore the simple advice to just add a note like "Players should not discuss their plans with other players" or "give everyone a chance to input ideas. Dont hog the spotlight." so instead you end up with a page or more of mechanics to prevent something that you cant prevent unless the players just agreed with the basic suggestion in the first place.

Back on topic: Which rolls back around to the Vampire topic. GM tips are fine. "Dont do stuff that is inappropriate at the table. And heres what you can do if problems arise. Take the player aside and tell them curb it please. Failing that. Remove them."

Quote from: Omega;964164Someone doesnt want sex in their RPG. Then just add a DM advice note like "Hey. Dont do this thing unless everyone is ok." or "These subjects dont fit the theme and tone of the setting." which I've seen a few times like "Dont name your character some cutsy, joke, or cliche name as it in no way fits the setting.."

You dont need 5 pages of rules and laws and mechanics to get across.

Quote from: Baulderstone;964167There was a document I was sent when I was playtesting a game. I can't recall specifically, but I think it was one I did for Pelgrane. It spelled out the expectations they had for the playtest. They made the point that they weren't interested in feedback on what happens when players try to break the game or cause trouble. They were designing the game for people that sat down in good faith to play the game that as presented, and they were only interested in hearing about problem that occur naturally. The document made the point that people can always act like assholes and ruin a game no matter what you put in a game to stop them, so it just weighs down a game to no purpose.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964171That is a really strange way to think about RPG rules. We are talking about whether you need rules to protect people from uncomfortable things in games. This isn't about preventing the break down of society.

Quote from: CRKrueger;964200What controls can you possibly have against people who can't control themselves?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964222The Humanity Track tries to force players into playing the game the 'right way', and we suddenly have a group of players who want more, to the point of Exalted's Social 'Combat' garbage.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964306Seriously, there's no such thing as problems which occur 'naturally', and were I to apply that philosophy to any other field I'd be fired for incompetence. If an RPG can be exploited in a way which leads to unintended behavior, then it is broken, full stop. It's one thing for a GM to add/modify a rule during play, but quite another to fix a broken one. And I hate having my time wasted by people who under the pretense of testing actually just want approval for their current design choices.

Out of curiosity, what changed between the playtest and the final product, and if under an #NDA, did anything meaningfully change at all?

Sure. The game got more streamlined and the mechanics got smoother. The usual things that crop up in playtests.

Not everyone needs the game rules to prevent us from engaging in "unintended behavior". Do we really want an edition of GUMSHOE with rules on how to stop players from murdering every suspect before questioning them?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964222The Humanity Track tries to force players into playing the game the 'right way', and we suddenly have a group of players who want more, to the point of Exalted's Social 'Combat' garbage.

Quote from: Baulderstone;964309It really didn't though. The Humanity rules in Vampire 1st Edition were utterly toothless. You could be a typical RPG murderhobo with no real risk of bottoming out.

I don't really think it was about making players play properly though. It was just a ported in version of Call of Cthulhu's Sanity mechanic, which is there create tension with a slow, downward spiral as you pursue the games central action. In Call of Cthulhu, investigating the Mythos is the central activity, and it eats your sanity. In D&D, going into the dungeon eats your hit points while you try to gain treasure. In Vampire, gaining blood points is supposed to eat away your Humanity.

In its intentions, Humanity is just a classic case of a resource that is expended in undertaking the game's actions. ?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964306The #XCard is a throttle, not a break. It's not there to establish the things a player wants to avoid (because that should be done before play), but to act as a safety net for the times the things a player wants to engage become too intense. Sadly it's been appropriated as a political tool, which makes it extremely difficult to demonstrate why it's effective or implement it without a lot of unnecessary flak.

Quote from: Baulderstone;964309It really didn't though. The Humanity rules in Vampire 1st Edition were utterly toothless. You could be a typical RPG murderhobo with no real risk of bottoming out.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964310But the humanity tracker is more about the cosmology of the setting than enforcing morality I think.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964315What the players did with the tool and what the designers were going for, you'll find, are often two different things.  The Humanity track was there to push players into a specific method of playing.  That gamers didn't was, I believe, a constant source of frustration for White Wolf, there's a reason the 'Superhero with Fangs' style has been derided and used as a pejorative.  It's an example of the subtle 'You're doing it wrong' attitude that White Wolf and a good chunk of their fans is famous for.

And instead of letting players do the personal horror thing organically, White Wolf doubled down on it, expanding it for the second editions, making the Great Curse/hubris for Exalted and even all the way to Exalted's Social Charms that force players into expending a resource to allow them to play the way they want to.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964319I just don't like the idea of a mechanic to tell players how to play the game 'the right way' as frankly, there isn't any.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964315What the players did with the tool and what the designers were going for, you'll find, are often two different things.  The Humanity track was there to push players into a specific method of playing.  That gamers didn't was, I believe, a constant source of frustration for White Wolf, there's a reason the 'Superhero with Fangs' style has been derided and used as a pejorative.  It's an example of the subtle 'You're doing it wrong' attitude that White Wolf and a good chunk of their fans is famous for.

And instead of letting players do the personal horror thing organically, White Wolf doubled down on it, expanding it for the second editions, making the Great Curse/hubris for Exalted and even all the way to Exalted's Social Charms that force players into expending a resource to allow them to play the way they want to.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964319I just don't like the idea of a mechanic to tell players how to play the game 'the right way' as frankly, there isn't any.

Quote from: Nexus;964328There isn't an objectively right way to play but there is designer intent. Genre or whatever enforcement rules are a way of getting that across. Like any rules some are better than other. The first really strong genre rules I ran into weren't white wolf, it was FASERIP Marvel's Karma.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964329And I hated the Karma rules then too.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964315What the players did with the tool and what the designers were going for, you'll find, are often two different things.  The Humanity track was there to push players into a specific method of playing.  That gamers didn't was, I believe, a constant source of frustration for White Wolf, there's a reason the 'Superhero with Fangs' style has been derided and used as a pejorative.  It's an example of the subtle 'You're doing it wrong' attitude that White Wolf and a good chunk of their fans is famous for.

And instead of letting players do the personal horror thing organically, White Wolf doubled down on it, expanding it for the second editions, making the Great Curse/hubris for Exalted and even all the way to Exalted's Social Charms that force players into expending a resource to allow them to play the way they want to.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964310But the humanity tracker is more about the cosmology of the setting than enforcing morality I think. In a game that is supposed to be about the loss of your humanity, having a stat like that makes a certain amount of in setting sense.  You could make the same argument about alignments in D&D.

Quote from: Nexus;964311Agreed. I had allot less issue with Humanity than the later Angst o'meters like Limit. It seemed less tacked on and like the game designers shaking their fingers at you chiding you to "play right" like Limit *or a ham-fisted attempt to give an aspect of the setting with a pseudo scientific explanation a moral/Spiritual component like Taint in Aberrant.

*I read a statement from a Exalted writer/staffer (maybe former one at this point) that said that pretty much flat out. Limit was something put in a enforce the 'right' playstyle because too many players supposedly wouldn't get it or wouldn't follow it unless the rules make them and making it a setting aspect (The Great Curse) was mainly sugar to help the proper rp medicine go down for those to simple minded to get it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964315What the players did with the tool and what the designers were going for, you'll find, are often two different things.  The Humanity track was there to push players into a specific method of playing.  That gamers didn't was, I believe, a constant source of frustration for White Wolf, there's a reason the 'Superhero with Fangs' style has been derided and used as a pejorative.  It's an example of the subtle 'You're doing it wrong' attitude that White Wolf and a good chunk of their fans is famous for.

And instead of letting players do the personal horror thing organically, White Wolf doubled down on it, expanding it for the second editions, making the Great Curse/hubris for Exalted and even all the way to Exalted's Social Charms that force players into expending a resource to allow them to play the way they want to.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;964348The advantage would be that the use and structure of the X-Card specifically says "you can veto anything and no one will challenge you". Every day speech, on the other hand, implies that discussion is an option.

The other advantage is being able to send a non-verbal cue that the direction things are going needs to be shifted. This can be less disruptive than verbally interjecting. I'm actually reminded of Kenneth Hite's technique of holding up a sign saying "NO MORE INFORMATION" or something of the like when the PCs have sucked all the useful data out of an NPC they're interrogating; it helps stave off non-productive scenarios in which players cling to scenes long after all interest has been lost because they're afraid of missing something, but it also allows the scene to draw to a natural conclusion whereas a verbal interjection tends to disrupt the scene and can often result in its unsatisfactory conclusion.

(I say this as someone who considers the X-Card fairly juvenile in practice and inherently problematic in its structure.)

.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964350Okay, I missed the veto power aspect to it I think. I suppose if that works for people, they should do it. Personally I think that would drive me a bit nuts at the table (I'd at least like there to be conversation about things because the vetos could be unreasonable, keep interrupting the flow or really need to be negotiated it seems). I guess that is the part about shifting to all card approach and away from regular speech approach that just doesn't fit for me. I see these things as stuff you hash out at the table. If someone has issues around a particular subject, we are happy to accommodate them, but it could also get to a point where someone just has too many issues for us to avoid.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964329And I hated the Karma rules then too.

Quote from: Baulderstone;964309Not everyone needs the game rules to prevent us from engaging in "unintended behavior". Do we really want an edition of GUMSHOE with rules on how to stop players from murdering every suspect before questioning them?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964315What the players did with the tool and what the designers were going for, you'll find, are often two different things.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964319I just don't like the idea of a mechanic to tell players how to play the game 'the right way' as frankly, there isn't any.

Quote from: CRKrueger;964418Anon, why don't you take a shot at giving an example of the type of rule/mechanic/disclaimer/whatever that you'd like to see them place into the new Vampire?

Quote from: Omega;964414Whats wrong with the Karma rules? They didnt enforce any playstyle really. You could be as nice or as cruel as you pleased. But just like in the comics the more bad you do the more likely things are going to eventually not go your way. This was even a mandate at Marvel for a time. If a character did something bad then they had to pay for it eventually.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964421Actually, yes.  You cannot kill, or you'll lose all the Karma you've built, and it doesn't matter if you did the act, or if you were mind controlled, you lose it all.  (which means that the Punisher never has any Karma ever.)  Letting a crime be committed makes you lose a small amount, so if you're chasing say the Juggernaut whose crushing his way through traffic, but a bunch of people are looting/rioting and you don't stop them, you're getting dinged for it and getting dinged for each instance.  And those are just couple of the penalties on page 35.

How is that NOT forcing you to be boy/girl scouts?

Now bear in mind that Karma is your Bennie (a la Savage World) and your XP, so if you're looking to maybe add a Power Stunt as a regular power, hope you plan on playing for decades.  And don't kill.  It's a mechanic that forces you into a direct playstyle with a near impossible set of rules if your GM plays the game straight.  You NEED to house rule this game.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964478Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Kenneth Hite talks a bit about his plans for Vampaire on Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff: http://www.kenandrobintalkaboutstuff.com/index.php/episode-243-i-do-not-wish-to-be-a-moth-hat/

Quote from: AaronBrown99;964426You're missing the whole point of the Karma rules, then. It's Marvel Super HEROES, not Marvel Super Angsty Murderhobos. Well, strike the angsty part, as Wolverine is on there...

They were a great way to get a group of 11-year-olds at my Jr High to FOCUS on choosing to act heroically instead of our usual hack&slash.

Of course you can ignore them if they're buzzkill, but I agree with what they intend to do, which is help kids who don't roleplay.

Quote from: Omega;964417So is there an XX card to block abuse of the X card? Is there a XXX card to block blocking abuse of the X card? Do you have to play an X and an XX card to block an XXX card?

Quote from: AaronBrown99;964426You're missing the whole point of the Karma rules, then. It's Marvel Super HEROES, not Marvel Super Angsty Murderhobos. Well, strike the angsty part, as Wolverine is on there...

Quote from: AaronBrown99;964426They were a great way to get a group of 11-year-olds at my Jr High to FOCUS on choosing to act heroically instead of our usual hack&slash.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;964426Of course you can ignore them if they're buzzkill, but I agree with what they intend to do, which is help kids who don't roleplay.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964478Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Kenneth Hite talks a bit about his plans for Vampaire on Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff: http://www.kenandrobintalkaboutstuff.com/index.php/episode-243-i-do-not-wish-to-be-a-moth-hat/

Quote from: Baulderstone;964512He emphasized it is going to be a setting where the vampires in each city are largely isolated from each other. The focus is on what happens in your own city and not some big metaplot.

Quote from: RPGPundit;964981I can't say I ever expected anything about Vampire (other than maybe it's failure) giving me pleasure. It's a pleasant surprise to see hordes of Swine having seizures over who's writing it!

Quote from: CRKrueger;964200What controls can you possibly have against people who can't control themselves?

Quote from: Opaopajr;964100You couldn't protect them then by the rules of Candyland or Bible Charades, and you sure as hell can't protect them now.

Quote from: Opaopajr;964100Adult themes are adult, who the fuck knew?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;964024It's a matter of taking reasonable precautions in a game where players are expected to engage in problematic themes.

Quote from: RPGPundit;964981I can't say I ever expected anything about Vampire (other than maybe it's failure) giving me pleasure. It's a pleasant surprise to see hordes of Swine having seizures over who's writing it!

Quote from: RPGPundit;964981I can't say I ever expected anything about Vampire (other than maybe it's failure) giving me pleasure. It's a pleasant surprise to see hordes of Swine having seizures over who's writing it!

Quote from: Spinachcat;964986Bible Charades sounds like the most fucked up LARP ever.

Quote from: Omega;964417So is there an XX card to block abuse of the X card? Is there a XXX card to block blocking abuse of the X card? Do you have to play an X and an XX card to block an XXX card?

Quote from: CRKrueger;964418Anon, why don't you take a shot at giving an example of the type of rule/mechanic/disclaimer/whatever that you'd like to see them place into the new Vampire?

Quote from: Nexus;964420That's what I was asking about earlier. Some concrete examples would help me understand his POV a little better. Because right now I don't think I do because it doesn't make allot of sense.

Quote from: RPGPundit;964981I can't say I ever expected anything about Vampire (other than maybe it's failure) giving me pleasure. It's a pleasant surprise to see hordes of Swine having seizures over who's writing it!

Quote from: Spinachcat;964986Nobody is going to accidentally fall into a Vampire RPG session.

Quote from: RPGPundit;964981I can't say I ever expected anything about Vampire (other than maybe it's failure) giving me pleasure. It's a pleasant surprise to see hordes of Swine having seizures over who's writing it!

Quote from: RPGPundit;964981I can't say I ever expected anything about Vampire (other than maybe it's failure) giving me pleasure. It's a pleasant surprise to see hordes of Swine having seizures over who's writing it!

Quote from: Baulderstone;964512I listened to that this morning. He emphasized it is going to be a setting where the vampires in each city are largely isolated from each other. The focus is on what happens in your own city and not some big metaplot. I remain unsure I am ever going to get back into Vampire, but that is the kind of thing of thing that would at least make me consider it.

Quote from: Nexus;964420That's what I was asking about earlier. Some concrete examples would help me understand his POV a little better. Because right now I don't think I do because it doesn't make allot of sense.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964572They don't help anything, other than to make people game the system.  You don't teach people a game by punishing them for wrongthink, you explain to them what you want out of the game.  And if you can't them get to play nice, you don't play with them.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;965309This is exactly what CoD was supposed to do once upon a time.

I can't speak for Anon, but I like mechanics that don't punish you for playing an inhuman monster in a game about inhuman monsters. There are much better ways to measure the descent into monsterdom, like replacing human traits with vampiric ones.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;9653272. In Requiem 2nd edition you have Banes you can take instead of taking a humanity drop.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;965089It's making me surprisingly happy too.

Seeing the pretentious twats who ruined the original World Of Darkness cut out of the picture by new White Wolf gives me quite a bit of personal satisfaction.

The original World Of Darkness would have worked fine. If not for the metaplot pushing idiots that believed their stories should take precedence over that of the primary audience the  games were aimed at. Over that of the individual game groups.

In their hubris, they utterly missed the point of what a roleplaying game is supposed to be about. Which was: To give the individual game groups the power to tell their own stories. And letting their PCs be the stars of their show.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;965594This guy gets it.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;964574Next generation Vampire. That's not a bad idea.

I'm liking what I am hearing about it. Most specifically on: The Hunger mechanic. It sounds like a huge improvement to the whole experience.

Quote from: Marleycat;965730They seem to be taking several things from the NWoD which is fine with me and pissing off the old fan base which is even better in my opinion. Combined with some new concepts and setting conceits. I'm loving the nerdrage over Beckett's Journal at TBP it's so classic it hurts. For the first time I have a bit of hope that they might do Changeling the Dreaming and Mage the Ascension correctly.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;965755WoD dominates the market despite its competitors usually being better designed. Most of the competitors are either no longer supported or minimally supported. Why is this?

Quote from: Marleycat;965730Combined with some new concepts and setting conceits. I'm loving the nerdrage over Beckett's Journal at TBP it's so classic it hurts.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;965757Just my own supposition, but I'd say brand loyalty/name recognition/knowing that the gamer next door also knows the game and is willing to play it.

Quote from: Baulderstone;965760Name recognition counts for a lot. It's why Americans believe that crap sold in Coca-Cola cans in the United States actually tastes like Coca-Cola.

Quote from: Voros;965759Urban Shadows just put out a new supplement or do you mean other 'competitors'? Magpie Games also put out a PbtA vampire game called Undying which I want to check out.

Quote from: Omega;965722These sorts of "Living Campaign" gimmicks rarely work out for long. If at all. Eventually something changes in a way that somehow turns off a chunk of the fanbase and they stop or at least pull back their support as much.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;965791At the very least this has inspired me to brush off some old design ideas.



The horrible reality is that social game markets are supported by the #Whales: The 1% of gamers who spend the most on product. They're almost universally insufferable and alienate more casual players, yet without them your product is dead.

So the 'gimmic' makes sense financially. Let's see if they can execute on it successfully.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;965755Monsterhearts and Urban Shadows do the metaphors and and politics better than WoD does, so there's little reason to use WoD over them when WoD's only draw is its convoluted setting. I recall someone made a WoD conversion to Urban Shadows but the links are all dead.

WoD dominates the market despite its competitors usually being better designed. Most of the competitors are either no longer supported or minimally supported. Why is this?

Quote from: PencilBoy99;965614Here's what I got out of what he said:

- there will be mechanics for stuff that's important about the setting / them. He mentioned Hunger / Feeding and Politics;
- the story will be about your characters; setting wise, Vampires now have more and more effective enemies - you'll be in your city most of the time telling your story;
- Lore will be toned down, with a lot of things becoming unreliable narrator, much less of a hill to climb for new players or GM's to work around. There won't be a lot of external decisions by important NPC's changing your story from the outside.
- It will be a bit like the Storyteller system, but not the storyteller system.

Like I said, great stuff for me and new players, people that identify strongly with the Lore will be very unhappy.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964999You really need to learn to let go.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;965990Isn't this exactly like Vampire the Requiem? Focus on your characters, opague lore,  anything can be true in your setting etc.

Quote from: RPGPundit;966240I don't see why. I'm winning and have been for years.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966254Yes it is. That's marketing speak for you...

Quote from: jan paparazzi;966258Why do you think the old/classic wod gets all the hate, but the new/chronicles wod doesn't get much appreciation either? It got rid of the metaplot focus, but it seems like it's totally off the radar for most people except the hardcore WW crowd.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;966257Well, it becomes a little silly to still be upset about metaplot, because they quit doing that in 2004.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966259Well, firstly, I think that Classic World of Darkness simply captures a larger audience - which includes a larger audience of critics. As such, the volume of criticism is greater too. Secondly, Classic World of Darkness is more politically partisan - which riles up people of opposing political views, like RPGPundit. New World/Chronicles was deliberately designed to be politically neutral with less cultural references. As such, it offends less people (but enthuses others less).

Quote from: jan paparazzi;966314I always called it bland, which would piss off the nwod fans immensely. To be honest the character classes were without cultural references and the politics moved towards the factions. But yeah a little bit of lore wouldn't hurt to give it some vibe.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;965980... And Urban Shadows and Monsterhearts are both Apocalypse World. I don't think you find much fans for an indie game system like that on this forum with all these old school renaissance fans. Petsonally I like the setting of urban shadows and the way it divides the characters in four groups.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;965755I don't really understand why anyone takes published settings seriously to the point of flame wars. I always found it more fun to mix/match and cherrypick.

Monsterhearts and Urban Shadows do the metaphors and and politics better than WoD does, so there's little reason to use WoD over them when WoD's only draw is its convoluted setting. I recall someone made a WoD conversion to Urban Shadows but the links are all dead.

WoD dominates the market despite its competitors usually being better designed. Most of the competitors are either no longer supported or minimally supported. Why is this?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;965980I think most competitors used to be clones that came out a decade too late like gurps Cabal or Witchcraft. And Urban Shadows and Monsterhearts are both Apocalypse World. I don't think you find much fans for an indie game system like that on this forum with all these old school renaissance fans. Petsonally I like the setting of urban shadows and the way it divides the characters in four groups. But the mechanics .... they are vague. I like the corruption and debts mechanics, because they make sense in a game where power leads to corruption and politics is all about debts and favors. But all I could think of was "Where are the skills?" while I was reading the book.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;965755I don't really understand why anyone takes published settings seriously to the point of flame wars. I always found it more fun to mix/match and cherrypick.

Monsterhearts and Urban Shadows do the metaphors and and politics better than WoD does, so there's little reason to use WoD over them when WoD's only draw is its convoluted setting. I recall someone made a WoD conversion to Urban Shadows but the links are all dead.

WoD dominates the market despite its competitors usually being better designed. Most of the competitors are either no longer supported or minimally supported. Why is this?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;966258Why do you think the old/classic wod gets all the hate, but the new/chronicles wod doesn't get much appreciation either? It got rid of the metaplot focus, but it seems like it's totally off the radar for most people except the hardcore WW crowd.

Quote from: Frey;966317I have tried to read Mage: the Awakening maybe ten times, and every single on I fall asleep after a couple of minutes.

Quote from: Baulderstone;966315The only one I really looked at was Mage: the Awakening. It seemed kind of cool in a lot of places, but the splats were terrible. Even when I didn't like a splat in most of the oWoD games, they were generally pretty clear archetypes a new player could quickly grasp. NWoD mage gave you Unicycle Girl and Cowboy Dandy.

Quote from: Frey;966317I have tried to read Mage: the Awakening maybe ten times, and every single on I fall asleep after a couple of minutes.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966376Because your judgement about the design of games is in error?

Quote from: Baulderstone;966315The only one I really looked at was Mage: the Awakening. It seemed kind of cool in a lot of places, but the splats were terrible. Even when I didn't like a splat in most of the oWoD games, they were generally pretty clear archetypes a new player could quickly grasp. NWoD mage gave you Unicycle Girl and Cowboy Dandy.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;965980Btw, now I use the d00 system of DWD Studios for my games. There is a modern horror/urban fantasy hack called Sigil and Shadow (http://chaosgrenade.com/games/sigil-shadow/). I like the system and the writing style of DWD a lot. I hope they will make it into a full product one time complete with all those awesome random tables they always use in those books.

Quote from: Baulderstone;966315The only one I really looked at was Mage: the Awakening. It seemed kind of cool in a lot of places, but the splats were terrible. Even when I didn't like a splat in most of the oWoD games, they were generally pretty clear archetypes a new player could quickly grasp. NWoD mage gave you Unicycle Girl and Cowboy Dandy.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;966459WoD and CoD are more or less the same, but the latter decoupled powers from politics. I never understood why everyone seemed to have a problem with this, since it's only slightly more complicated but otherwise the same. In WoD, your powers and politics were packaged together. Bruja were rebels without causes who had magic charisma and super strength and speed. In CoD, your powers and politics are picked separately. Daeva had magic charisma and super strength and speed, but whether they were rebels without causes depended on whether you chose Carthians or not.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;966459I suppose it's probably just a simple mental block and most people simply find thinking outside of their previous boxes difficult. That said, I wasn't very wowed by the factions in CoD (or WoD) because their motivations were often detached from anything I could sympathize with and I had a lot of difficulty thinking about what characters were supposed to do on a daily basis. Something as simple as an evangelical faction offers instant ideas for plots since your motive is to go around and spread the good news.

Basing game factions on real political parties or gang warfare sounds like a good idea to add instant, frivolous conflict.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;966451I don't think so. WoD books are really good in bringing a certain mood in a game like a radio play or a campfire story. But after seeing unisystem, GenreDiversion, basic roleplaying and d00 lite I came to the conclusion that all those games have better designed rulesets and are better at bringing in focus what the players want to do and supporting them with that. It's a shame really, because the WoD settings are usually really cool.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966639Well, that's a subjective then. Unisystem's Witchcraft was about as dull as you could possibly make a game about the occult.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;966642It was generic. Can't deny that. But it's easier to make your own.

Quote from: HorusArisen;966682I always liked CJ Carellas Witchcraft. As Goth games went it was a darn site better than eyeliner and velvet that was WoD (Mage & Changeling being the exception because I like those ;))

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966880Back to pure subjectivity again then.

Quote from: Baulderstone;966471I actually liked decoupling the political and power splats. It's just that power splats felt limited and arbitrary. There weren't that many of them, and the ones that were there didn't click for me. Super strength, speed and charisma worked for me with Brujah because those all are vampire traits. With the Daeva, it just didn't fit with any kind of mage archetype cleanly, and most of the splats failed to evoke any kind of mage archetype, and it didn't do a good enough job of selling me on a new archetype.

I'd contrast it with Unknown Armies which had very unconventional magic users like dipsomancers (that build up magical charges by getting drunk) and entropomancers (who build up charges by taking risks). Those were weird, but I was instantly able to wrap my head around them and how to play them. The splats in Mage felt murky and unappealing.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966643How so? It's just more restrictive ultimately, as it deals more in stereotypes. I have similar criticism of Apocalypse World games, which some argue is the pinnacle of game design these days: it's a class-based system with very limited game play variation. For what it does, fine, but it doesn't actually replicate the immersive design qualities of the World of Darkness games, regardless of how tidy the mechanical game play is.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;966930I found World of Darkness extremely restrictive. All vampires follow the same basic rules, loosely inspired by Anne Rice's books, with only disciplines and clan weaknesses and obscure merits/flaws for customization. The discipline mechanics are extremely narrow in application rather than broad enough to emulate whatever popular fiction you'd care to name and many classic powers are completely overlooked.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;966886And you aren't? If everyone is completely neutral it would be a dull discussion.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;966376Because your judgement about the design of games is in error?

Quote from: Omega;964997Why would they object?

Quote from: Omega;964997Why would they object?

Quote from: Nexus;967268If I had to take a guess because they don't like who's writing it?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;967270Actually, the problem, judging from the TBP thread, seems to be the exact opposite. A lot of the people there do like Ken Hite, and feel torn between admiration for him and anger and distrust towards the new White Wolf and their plans for V5.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967207Yeah, pretty much.  WoD games aren't Storygames nor do they include a high degree of narrative mechanics.  Except for Wraith, where you can play Shadows, and a personality/morality mechanic in some lines, WoD has always been pretty traditional until recently.  

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;967272I like Ken, but I liked Ken from his Nightmares of Mine and Suppressed Transmission days. But a man has to eat.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;967358I hope they break that tradition now.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;967358If there is someone who can do it it's probably him. I hope he comes up with some decent mechanics and with some practical GM's advice. I always wondered why there isn't any info about what kind of political conflicts you can have, who your opponent could be, what your opponent wants and why. Preferably in a random table.

Quote from: CRKrueger;967207Yeah, pretty much.  WoD games aren't Storygames nor do they include a high degree of narrative mechanics.  Except for Wraith, where you can play Shadows, and a personality/morality mechanic in some lines, WoD has always been pretty traditional until recently.  BoxCrayonTales generally doesn't prefer that type of design.

Quote from: Baulderstone;967304Exactly. The mechanics for WoD were designed by Tom Dowd who worked on Shadowrun, and it is basically the same system with d10s instead of exploding d6s. If Vampire:the Masquerade is a story game, then so is Shadowrun.



That's my feeling. The guy is actually full-time, professional game designer. That isn't the kind of job description where you can afford to turn down job offers, especially from a company that can credibly pay you what they are offering.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;967955My original question was about why WoD vastly outsold its few competitors. It's not because their mechanics are any good, since the Storytell system sucks compared to GURPS or PBtA. It's because of the backstory, metaplot, tremisce or whatever you would call it. I prefer a system that is optimized for its intended style of play rather than one which poorly mixes narrative and simulation mechanics.

Quote from: 3rik;967399Any word on who's going to write the game fiction? ;)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;967968While it had flaws, I think one of the reasons for the success was the system. It was very easy to explain to new players that a pip represented a d10. I think that is one of the reasons why you saw lots of new people come in with vampire. Contrast that with the base mechanic of D&D at the time, which was THAC0. I love THAC0 but it I just tried explaining it to some younger players yesterday and the blank stares reminded me why sometimes Vampire was an easier sell than comparable games at the time. GURPS is a great system as well, but to a non-gamer, I think it is pretty daunting. Once you dig into these systems, things get different. But Vampire was a system that people could understand just looking at the character sheet (or at least it doesn't seem quite as math oriented) and you didn't really need the background in gaming to grok all the concepts (whereas a lot of RPGs were much easier to understand if you had been playing for a while).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;967986WoD dominates the urban fantasy market despite its mechanics undergoing little refinement in the twenty five years since their inception. The cracks have really started to show, especially in Exalted and Scion. CoD, for example, bolts Fate's aspects onto the ST system. Given the innovation in the tabletop scene in the past two decades and the availability of systems which accomplish the same purpose far more elegantly, I presume that WoD is popular mainly due to either the depth of its setting or the good will of long time fans invested in that setting. The only real competitors IIRC are Shadowrun, Dresden Files, Monsterhearts and Urban Shadows. At least if the DriveThruRPG medals are anything to go by.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;967968While it had flaws, I think one of the reasons for the success was the system. It was very easy to explain to new players that a pip represented a d10. I think that is one of the reasons why you saw lots of new people come in with vampire. Contrast that with the base mechanic of D&D at the time, which was THAC0. I love THAC0 but it I just tried explaining it to some younger players yesterday and the blank stares reminded me why sometimes Vampire was an easier sell than comparable games at the time. GURPS is a great system as well, but to a non-gamer, I think it is pretty daunting. Once you dig into these systems, things get different. But Vampire was a system that people could understand just looking at the character sheet (or at least it doesn't seem quite as math oriented) and you didn't really need the background in gaming to grok all the concepts (whereas a lot of RPGs were much easier to understand if you had been playing for a while).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;967986WoD dominates the urban fantasy market despite its mechanics undergoing little refinement in the twenty five years since their inception. The cracks have really started to show, especially in Exalted and Scion. CoD, for example, bolts Fate's aspects onto the ST system. Given the innovation in the tabletop scene in the past two decades and the availability of systems which accomplish the same purpose far more elegantly, I presume that WoD is popular mainly due to either the depth of its setting or the good will of long time fans invested in that setting. The only real competitors IIRC are Shadowrun, Dresden Files, Monsterhearts and Urban Shadows. At least if the DriveThruRPG medals are anything to go by.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968032I think people mostly hang on to the wod because of the depth of the setting. I don't really mind the system that much at least not the nwod system. The combat is dull though. What mostly bugs me about the wod is the tone. It is written with the general idea that the GM should think about certain themes, the mood, the story arc, recurring motifs etc. and try to incorporate those in the story he wants to tell. There is very little written about what the players are going to do in these games and how the system can support that. Compare it to Traveller for example and the difference in focus is obvious. That game literally starts with pointing out what you can do in that setting.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;968015For whatever reason, percentiles are scary, while simple math under 10 (1-5 attribute, 1-5 skill) is welcoming, even though you know exactly what the chance of success is when looking at a percentile, and can maybe figure out the chance of success of a target #X with Y dice and needing Z successes without getting out the scratch paper.

Quote from: Baulderstone;968054Exactly. It is partly because a lot of casual gamers simply don't think about the odds in the first place. You need to really understand the fundamentals of probability before you even notice that that the oWoD is damned complicated.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968062Dicepool systems were seen as the new shiny in the early 90s, thanks to Ghostbusters et al, but percentiles were seen as old hat. I remember seeing a review for Nephilim (which was ostensibly, Chaosium's answer to Vampire back then) where the reviewer basically said as much! I take the point about probabilities, but I think it's fair to say that White Wolf wasn't aiming at Math analysts as a priority market. This was the grunge era, when the spontaneity of gameplay and interaction with setting was deemed more important than hard and tested rule systems.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;967986WoD dominates the urban fantasy market despite its mechanics undergoing little refinement in the twenty five years since their inception.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968032I think people mostly hang on to the wod because of the depth of the setting.

Quote from: Omega;968135And here is one of WOD's strengths. It didnt change too much from edition to edition and so unlike say 3e D&D and on, its not lost a chunk of players each time.

It was the setting changes that finally cost them a huge chunk of players.

Quote from: Omega;968139I dont think its the depth of the setting thats a draw, because lets face it, its pretty shallow. Its the puzzle of the setting. And here is where WW grabbed some players. The grand puzzle of what really happened. Its backstory might as well be called Rashamon.

Probably also why Rifts interests some. Theres these puzzles in the background and each new book might reveal a little more about those puzzles.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968049In my copy of Vampire, which I will choose 1st edition by way of making a point, it included an entire chapter on "Chronicles" that discussed a range of options to base your stories on and an example introductory campaign set up with NPCs, etc. The notion of playing a brood of young, neonate Vampires working against the machinations of older, inhuman Vampires in a dark mirror of our own world was also explicit from the first chapter onwards. Did you really not know how to play it?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968049In my copy of Vampire, which I will choose 1st edition by way of making a point, it included an entire chapter on "Chronicles" that discussed a range of options to base your stories on and an example introductory campaign set up with NPCs, etc. The notion of playing a brood of young, neonate Vampires working against the machinations of older, inhuman Vampires in a dark mirror of our own world was also explicit from the first chapter onwards. Did you really not know how to play it?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968259Pfffff. This kind of reaction reminds me of the kind of reactions I got at the WW or shadownessence fora. I am getting so tired from this. The chapters WW writes about chronicles are absolutely horribly written and nothing in there is appealing to me. I understand what they say, but I have zero interest in playing what is written there. I like Savage Worlds Rippers for example. That game gives you some random tables about how to do a hunt, an investigation, recruitment, politics and research quest. That is practical and a 1000 times better than what hunter the Vigil does for example. The urban fantasy genre needs a Sine Nomine book badly.

Quote from: san dee jota;968206QFT

I've seen jan paparazzi's complaint before (I'm pretty sure, but not certain, from a different user), and it struck me as odd.  The WoD games all had recurring themes (old vs. young, faction vs. faction, splat vs. splat, mortals vs. monsters, emotional problems vs. players, etc.) designed to appeal to 20-30 something year old GenXers of the time.  They spelled these themes out in the books, directly and literally, and -then- throw out all these "Stereotypes" to help reinforce the idea that the monsters are all cliquish little groups who don't really like each other but work together because X will get them if they don't.  And the games each had their own X to contend with, whether the Jyhad of Vampire or the Oblivion of Wraith, there was -something- big enough to scare the monster PCs.

Quote from: san dee jota;968260There's a big difference between "I want randomization tables" and "the book doesn't deal with X".  It -does- deal with X, just not in the way you'd like it to.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968049In my copy of Vampire, which I will choose 1st edition by way of making a point, it included an entire chapter on "Chronicles" that discussed a range of options to base your stories on and an example introductory campaign set up with NPCs, etc. The notion of playing a brood of young, neonate Vampires working against the machinations of older, inhuman Vampires in a dark mirror of our own world was also explicit from the first chapter onwards. Did you really not know how to play it?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968259Pfffff. This kind of reaction reminds me of the kind of reactions I got at the WW or shadownessence fora. I am getting so tired from this. The chapters WW writes about chronicles are absolutely horribly written and nothing in there is appealing to me. I understand what they say, but I have zero interest in playing what is written there. I like Savage Worlds Rippers for example. That game gives you some random tables about how to do a hunt, an investigation, recruitment, politics and research quest. That is practical and a 1000 times better than what hunter the Vigil does for example. The urban fantasy genre needs a Sine Nomine book badly.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968263I think this is probably the thing. I have zero interest in cliques working together while they still don't like each other.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968263I do like organisations who all have functional goals to achieve an who are all doing different things in the same universe. But you are more likely to find those groups in a scifi or fantasy setting. Hellfrost is a good example of a setting where I really dig all the factions. It offers something for everyone. Wanna fight? Join a knight order or mercenary group. Wanna collect artefacts? Join the reliquery or the lorekeepers. Wanna steal shit? Join the thieves guild.

Quote from: Baulderstone;968272I have know nothing about Hunter: the Vigil, so I can't take a side there.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968259Pfffff. This kind of reaction reminds me of the kind of reactions I got at the WW or shadownessence fora. I am getting so tired from this. The chapters WW writes about chronicles are absolutely horribly written and nothing in there is appealing to me. I understand what they say, but I have zero interest in playing what is written there. I like Savage Worlds Rippers for example. That game gives you some random tables about how to do a hunt, an investigation, recruitment, politics and research quest. That is practical and a 1000 times better than what hunter the Vigil does for example. The urban fantasy genre needs a Sine Nomine book badly.

Quote from: san dee jota;968298Granted, combat took up 85% of everybody's attention because that's what storytelling games are all about apparently, but still...

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968302I agree with basically everything you say, but would just highlight this point: the original Vampire (1st edition) detailed their combat system in merely five pages of a chapter titled "Drama" that was more broadly about all the systems of play in general. It didn't take up a lot of space by comparison to most games. While most games of the era were heavy on combat, and presumably had fans that carried this tendency into the Vampire game too, it wasn't openly encouraging people to be driven by combat any more than new 'story games' of the modern era. It was just another system of play to be used as your group saw fit.

The irony is that when people complain about Vampire's system being rubbish, they are usually referring to the combat system that they say shouldn't be prevalent anyway. It's like the Woody Allen joke about two old ladies in a restaurant - "The food in here is dreadful"....."I know, and such small portions!".

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;968331I disliked the non-combat portions. For a self-proclaimed storytelling game, it still uses the vaguely "simulationist" model of others at the time except with filled circles. The rules for superpowers, as I said, are weirdly restrictive.

I don't know why anymore, but I just hate WoD and everything to do with it. I cannot stand the eclectic rules. I cannot stand the community and their constant inane arguments about fluff.

Is there anybody here who likes these games or are we preaching a hateful gospel to a hateful choir?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968302I agree with basically everything you say, but would just highlight this point: the original Vampire (1st edition) detailed their combat system in merely five pages of a chapter titled "Drama" that was more broadly about all the systems of play in general.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968302The irony is that when people complain about Vampire's system being rubbish, they are usually referring to the combat system that they say shouldn't be prevalent anyway.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;968331I don't know why anymore, but I just hate WoD and everything to do with it. I cannot stand the eclectic rules. I cannot stand the community and their constant inane arguments about fluff.

Quote from: san dee jota;968345To be fair, when the majority of people (fans and critics both) talk about VtM, they're not referring to the relatively rare and "incomplete" 1ed, but the developed 2ed and onwards.  The era that gave us things like the WoD Combat supplement, among other things.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;967988I don't know. Elegance and innovation may simply not be what people want. I think the combination of 'easy to grok at a glance', familiarity with the system over time, and setting, are all contributing factors. But I think you can't ignore the part about pips being pretty easy to grasp. Whenever I talk to WoD players, that is one of the big reasons they list of for liking it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;968184I find this approach antithetical to the strengths of RPGs. It leads to people buying the books just to read them rather than to play or get inspired to create their own thing.

Quote from: Snowman0147;968279I do agree that urban fantasy needs the attention that only Kevin Crawsford can give.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;9683832nd edition wasn't much different to to 1st edition, beyond having a hardback and reformatting/editing the text.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968383I can be critical of the combat system if you like, which essentially attempted to shoehorn a loose comparative dice pool system into a standardised three-tiered combat model (Initiative, Attack, Damage) which didn't work simply because there was too many ineffectual rolls being made. But, hey, it was fixable by most groups

Quote from: Nexus;968463Actually, that's a fairly reasonable result compared to real life. Firearms, even powerful ones aren't death rays. People survive them all them all the time or linger for days. The problem for nominal realism can be how most games make conventional medical attention an automatic life saver and recovery always successful given time with no chance of lasting injury and disability. Though its probably more playable to handle simply. "Gritty" games often bump lethality above real life for mood and game play.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;968331I disliked the non-combat portions. For a self-proclaimed storytelling game, it still uses the vaguely "simulationist" model of others at the time except with filled circles. The rules for superpowers, as I said, are weirdly restrictive.

I don't know why anymore, but I just hate WoD and everything to do with it. I cannot stand the eclectic rules. I cannot stand the community and their constant inane arguments about fluff.

Is there anybody here who likes these games or are we preaching a hateful gospel to a hateful choir?

Quote from: Nexus;968463Actually, that's a fairly reasonable result compared to real life. Firearms, even powerful ones aren't death rays. People survive them all them all the time or linger for days. The problem for nominal realism can be how most games make conventional medical attention an automatic life saver and recovery always successful given time with no chance of lasting injury and disability. Though its probably more playable to handle it simply. Also I imagine having a character laid up for weeks, maimed or crippled long term is less fun and cinematic then a relatively quick clean death.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968496Apparently TrippyHippy and San Dee Jota. Well, I tried to explain why, but it's pointless and will only lead to nitpicking and holding every word I say under a magnifying glass. Endless discussions going nowhere. I leave this topic for what it is. I will let you know if I finally found something I like.

QuoteEdit:Btw, I am not an Apocalypse World fan. That's Boxcrayontales. I would rather have a more open, broad sandbox setting with a more diverse set of organisations. Not the cliques doing politics because they want their views to become policy. And the icing on the cake would be random generators or tables, because out of the 6 options they provide me there are usually 1 or 2 I didn't think of.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968603It's called debate, and all anyone is doing is presenting you with counterargument, that you seem to struggle with.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968603By way of example, I could also present you with reasons why CJ Carella's Witchcraft was basically derivative too. If you just want some narrative-generating random  tables, however, I could suggest Fiasco.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968651Fucking annoying. That's the last thing I want when I provide reasons for not liking something. I could be lazy and just say the World of Darkness sucks monkey balls and be done with it. That saves a lot of time and effort.

QuoteWhen I see someone on a forum saying he or she doesn't like something because of reasons, then I usually try to figure out why he/she doesn't like it and how it could be solved. Or maybe it just isn't meant to be for that person.

QuoteDerivative of what?

Quote from: Snowman0147;968279I do agree that urban fantasy needs the attention that only Kevin Crawsford can give.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968669The World of Darkness games, obviously, with mechanics plucked from a few other eclectic sources. And before you get all defensive about that, it is worth pointing out that C.J Carella himself has actually said as much about it too. Indeed, it may be worth having a read up of George Vaskilakos' (owner of Eden Studios) review of Vampire: The Masquerade in the Hobby Games: The 100 Best book, if you want to know why Vampire has been popular and successful over the years. It's pretty well explained there.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968786Well, it all comes down to your mileage may vary. I never claimed any game is superior or inferior to any other game. For whatever reasons (and I have a pretty good idea why that is and I don't want to debate them) my mileage out of a wod is extremely low. When I read Hunter the Vigil I have no idea what to do with. Some cool ideas, but nothing pops up. When I read SW Rippers I get a zillion ideas and I instantly know what to do with.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;968790Agreed 100%. It's a wod clone. But it's written in a different manner and it feels more open to me. I will check this out btw. Got a link?

Quote from: Snowman0147;968279I do agree that urban fantasy needs the attention that only Kevin Crawsford can give.

Quote from: AsenRG;968994You mean you don't like his current urban fantasy book Silent Legions, or what:D?

Quote from: AsenRG;968994You mean you don't like his current urban fantasy book Silent Legions, or what:D?

Quote from: John Scott;968964I was introduced to the WoD by a storyteller who played Vampire by the book. The Ventrue where gentlemen, the Brujah punks, Toreador artists etc. We where neonites and we couldn't do shit without asking our mentor or we would be punished. We had to watch long and boring discussions between very important NPCs (hint: created by the Storyteller) and the whole chronicle can be described as Storyteller masturbating with his NPC's. Occasionally we fought some monster of the week like Sabbat or Werewolf and that's it.

Quote from: AsenRG;968994You mean you don't like his current urban fantasy book Silent Legions, or what:D?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;968915Well, the Hobby Games: The 100 Best is a published by by Green Ronin. There will probably be PDF copy around somewhere - there is a drive thru at least. Vampire is listed along with about twenty or so other RPGs (amongst the other types of hobby games: cards, miniature, board games etc). It's collectively written by recognisable industry professionals, with each nominating a game to write an essay on. As such, in this book at least, Vampire is essentially listed as being among the twenty best RPGs ever made. That said, some games have been written since it's publication.

Quote from: san dee jota;969002Urban Fantasy has a broad number of applications (heck, "They Live" and "Blue Velvet" are technically urban fantasy), but in RPGs people are -usually- talking about games where you play super powered inhumans with this vast and ancient culture based around hiding from the puny mortals they beat up.  ;)

Quote from: san dee jota;969002Urban Fantasy has a broad number of applications (heck, "They Live" and "Blue Velvet" are technically urban fantasy), but in RPGs people are -usually- talking about games where you play super powered inhumans with this vast and ancient culture based around hiding from the puny mortals they beat up.  ;)

Quote from: Snowman0147;969067That is his Cthulhu work.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;969133Cthulhu style horror. Urban fantasy is more the peoplez with powerz.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;968465If I recall, the game Millenium's End got a bit deep into the whole dying process (its been ages but I am pretty sure there was a chart in there that somehow involved heart rate). I may be thinking of another game. I think sometimes this stuff can add a lot to game (Butcher gave some advice that helped me shape my in-house rules on sepsis), but it helps to still try and keep it simple because real life is usually a lot more complicated than a single die roll and things can rapidly become unwieldy.

Quote from: 3rik;969117Yup. And it actually almost sounds like it was designed by the same people who did Germany´s number one "rpg" Das Schwarze Auge which suffers from many of the same issues.

By the way, Pulp Fiction with vampires sounds a lot like From Dusk Till Dawn.

Quote from: AsenRG;969249Powers are present in Silent Legions, if the Referee allows them. They just have a price:).
And the price of powers is a major theme of urban fantasy;).

Quote from: jan paparazzi;970078Well, it seems like it's mostly about the Mythos (aka squidhead and robed cultists). Urban fantasy is mostly a world where everyone is running around with powers, mostly because they are mages, vampires, shapeshifters, fae etc. Magic and monsters are common. I am personally the most interested in a game where those things exist, but are rare and very powerful and frightening when encountered. Gritty, high realism and low magic. A modern occult game where conspiracies, cultist and magicians/witches exist, but they are meddling with forces they don't understand. Low psychic powers might be available for pc's. Don't think Charles Xavier, but think more the kid from the Shining. But no squidheads, no greys. Now that I think of it Unknown Armies and Kult probably come closest. But long post ... will Silent Legions be of any use?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;970078Well, it seems like it's mostly about the Mythos (aka squidhead and robed cultists). Urban fantasy is mostly a world where everyone is running around with powers, mostly because they are mages, vampires, shapeshifters, fae etc. Magic and monsters are common. I am personally the most interested in a game where those things exist, but are rare and very powerful and frightening when encountered. Gritty, high realism and low magic. A modern occult game where conspiracies, cultist and magicians/witches exist, but they are meddling with forces they don't understand. Low psychic powers might be available for pc's. Don't think Charles Xavier, but think more the kid from the Shining. But no squidheads, no greys. Now that I think of it Unknown Armies and Kult probably come closest. But long post ... will Silent Legions be of any use?

Quote from: 3rik;969117Yup. And it actually almost sounds like it was designed by the same people who did Germany´s number one "rpg" Das Schwarze Auge which suffers from many of the same issues.

By the way, Pulp Fiction with vampires sounds a lot like From Dusk Till Dawn.

Quote from: san dee jota;970135Honestly, I'd recommend Silent Legions for world (Mythos) building, and just about any other game for actual play.  It's not that Silent Legions is bad, it's just there are other games out there with better systems, and SL's main unique strength is in giving you a bunch of tables to randomly generate a Mythos, its beasties, and so forth.

Quote from: Lord Darkview;970222So someone pointed out this really "interesting" dialogue between Mark Hagan (creator of Vampire) and Holden Shearer (prior Exalted developer). Thought you all might enjoy the "exchange."

https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240 (https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240)

Just hunt for Holden's reply, it gets quite intensive rather quickly.

Quote from: VengerSatanis;970171Just so long as it doesn't devolve into Innocent Blood.  [Shudder]

VS

Quote from: Lord Darkview;970222So someone pointed out this really "interesting" dialogue between Mark Hagan (creator of Vampire) and Holden Shearer (prior Exalted developer). Thought you all might enjoy the "exchange."

https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240 (https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240)

Just hunt for Holden's reply, it gets quite intensive rather quickly.

Quote from: Nexus;970250I don't have Facebook, What's the gist?

Quote from: Nexus;970250I don't have Facebook, What's the gist?

Quote from: Nexus;968463Actually, that's a fairly reasonable result compared to real life. Firearms, even powerful ones aren't death rays. People survive them all them all the time or linger for days. The problem for nominal realism can be how most games make conventional medical attention an automatic life saver and recovery always successful given time with no chance of lasting injury and disability. Though its probably more playable to handle it simply. Also I imagine having a character laid up for weeks, maimed or crippled long term is less fun and cinematic then a relatively quick clean death.

Quote from: Lord Darkview;970222So someone pointed out this really "interesting" dialogue between Mark Hagan (creator of Vampire) and Holden Shearer (prior Exalted developer). Thought you all might enjoy the "exchange."

https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240 (https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240)

Just hunt for Holden's reply, it gets quite intensive rather quickly.

Quote from: Voros;970286Two or three morons harrass Hagen for working for a company that dared to hire Zak. Hagen defends himself well and exposes them for the self-righteous assholes they are but they live in such a delusional bubble they think they're winning and post on their own accounts bragging and circlejerking about their supposed victory. They are the internet's own STD.

Someone should screengrab that FB comment thread for the 'Why we hate you' thread.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300The whole purpose, pretty much the entire goal of gaming, especially rpg gaming, is to detach from oneself, and to roleplay, that is, to take on the characteristics of another person, so that one can empathize with them, and in order to understand why they made the decisions that they made, and to improve at making personal decisions, by increasing your awareness of how, and why, other people make the decisions that they do. That is real roleplaying, and it is used to improve the decision making process in real life.

QuoteI have found that nowhere in the above definition of a game is said game required to contain sex, or violence, abuse, or any triggering behaviors, or any other dysfunctional social behavior, in any way, shape, or form. yet there are folks here that insist on dragging these negative elements into our sphere of gaming which pretty much, at the moment consists of entertainment, diversions, and recreation, except for those of you that are hopelessly hung-up on and completely obsessed with burdensome real-life issues. The whole point of gaming is to unburden yourself from those toxins.

QuoteIt not that such sordid and sad roleplaying content "triggers" me, it's that I don't particularly care to be tainted by the same poisons that has so infected and sickened the folks that insist on posting about such trash here on this gaming forum. Got some real life issues? Why are you bringing them into our games here? Go find a real life psychologist, or psychiatrist who actually might be able to heal you, instead of spreading misery for other gamers here.

Quote from: Omega;965966"living settings" tend to fail on a regular basis to the point you wonder why anyone even bothers anymore.

Quote from: Lord Darkview;970222So someone pointed out this really "interesting" dialogue between Mark Hagan (creator of Vampire) and Holden Shearer (prior Exalted developer). Thought you all might enjoy the "exchange."

https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240 (https://www.facebook.com/Reinhagen/posts/10155667328577240)

Just hunt for Holden's reply, it gets quite intensive rather quickly.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300The whole purpose, pretty much the entire goal of gaming, especially rpg gaming, is to detach from oneself, and to roleplay, that is, to take on the characteristics of another person, so that one can empathize with them, and in order to understand why they made the decisions that they made, and to improve at making personal decisions, by increasing your awareness of how, and why, other people make the decisions that they do. That is real roleplaying, and it is used to improve the decision making process in real life.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300I have found that nowhere in the above definition of a game is said game required to contain sex, or violence, abuse, or any triggering behaviors, or any other dysfunctional social behavior, in any way, shape, or form.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;970312preying on specific people gives you #PowerUps.

Quote from: Ulairi;970323Anybody else find it weird that the two dudes giving him the biggest problems, look like they weren't even alive or able to read when the game first released?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;970327Does that make them or their points right or wrong? Then no. They, like everyone else, can succeed or fail based on the merits they bring forward in their arguments, not the year they were born.

I can't wait until I get off work and can actually read this facebook dumpster fire. Just from others' reactions, it sounds popcorn-worthy.

Quote from: Vile Jester;970320I like the "You Are What You Eat" principle in terms of having something to mechanically reflect that vampires are supposed to be taking something a little bit more than your average blood drive from their victims. It was previously kinda covered the the treatment of the "Blood Pool", but that ended up feeling like a gas meter the same way you say this feels like grabbing power ups...

Anything you think might mitigate that?

Quote from: Nexus;970365Thanks, Voros, Snowman. Sounds like a true trainwreck. Almost makes me want to start a facebook account just to get a look at it.

Quote from: Mark Rein-HagenI may not have a Trans developer on the team (currently that is), but I do work with Trans folk from countries where it is a death sentence. Tbilisi is very much a middle east/central asian refuge. Last week we helped a fleeing Kazakh get shelter and a short respite.

I understand where you are coming from, I share your ideals, but I don't really have time for internet liberals and the politics of outrage.

Check out the Astraea Foundation, they do brave work. Maybe put your money where your mouth is? We really need support. Button is on the top right.

Or damnit, just travel instead of vacation. See the world as it really is and meet the real people who live in it.

Sorry to be so brusque but its late and I am tired. Especially tired of being attacked by fellow travelers for trying to make a living as an artist.

https://www.astraeafoundation.org/

Quote from: Baulderstone;970372I'll share a highlight with you to save the effort.



Of course, Holden and friends steadfastly ignore this comment, as they have never actually done anything for anybody unless you consider Internet bullying to be a form of philanthropy.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970371I met Mark in an online Q&A for a Kickstarter for one of his newer games he was trying to launch. Nice guy with a great sense of humor.

He doesn't deserve the crap those people gave him on Facebook. He deserves the games that he creates to succeed.

I will always remember my conversation with him as a great experience. I learned a lot of things from it. And have always wished him the best. Regardless of our differing tastes.

Vampire: The Masquerade would have been a very different game. If he had been the one in control. It would have evolved over time to reflect that. And I would have really loved to have seen the fruits of Mark's vision.

Instead. We got the inmates running the asylum. After Mark was driven out.

OPP and their freelancers are still those inmates. And apparently. They haven't learned a thing from their continual string of failures. From the fact that they drove the original White Wolf into the ground.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300Now someone upthread mentioned me being triggered, and I found that amusing. The whole purpose, pretty much the entire goal of gaming,

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300I have found that nowhere in the above definition of a game is said game required to contain sex, or violence, abuse, or any triggering behaviors, or any other dysfunctional social behavior, in any way, shape, or form. yet there are folks here that insist on dragging these negative elements into our sphere of gaming which pretty much, at the moment consists of entertainment, diversions, and recreation, except for those of you that are hopelessly hung-up on and completely obsessed with burdensome real-life issues. The whole point of gaming is to unburden yourself from those toxins.

It not that such sordid and sad roleplaying content "triggers" me, it's that I don't particularly care to be tainted by the same poisons that has so infected and sickened the folks that insist on posting about such trash here on this gaming forum. Got some real life issues? Why are you bringing them into our games here? Go find a real life psychologist, or psychiatrist who actually might be able to heal you, instead of spreading misery for other gamers here.

QuoteAs for Kenneth Hite, He rocks!

Quote from: san dee jota;970339The argument summed up from where I stand.

"White Wolf -used- to be such a sensitive and welcoming company, making mature products."
"Like Pimp the Backhanding, Exalted: Infernals, WoD: Gypsies, vagina dentata on the back of Clanbook: Tzimisce so it had to be sold in a black baggie at Hastings, etc. etc. etc."
"No, I mean they didn't hire transphobes and make sniggering jokes about other people."
"How the heck do you know that none of their freelancers and devs were transphobic?  It's not like transgender characters were in their books for the first decade at least.  And sniggering jokes were (and are) common place, they're just at groups you don't mind being ridiculed so you don't notice or care.  Say hello to the new edgelords, same as the old edgelords."
"Well Zak S.-"
"Oh for fuck's sake.  Just say RPG Hitler and be done with it, because your argument is just Godwin's Law in a different dress."
"If you listen to David Hill-"
"Why?  All I know about the guy is he burned a lot of people on Kickstarter.  Multiple times.  But I'm supposed to take him at his word now because RPG Hitler?"
"Well Ken Hite-"
"Is a guy who likes making games and wants to make some money doing it.  You want him to eat, nuWW is helping him do that.  You want nuWW to improve itself, hiring Ken Hite is a way to do that.  You feel guilty over liking a company (now companies) that have been making games where you play super powered assholes for over two decades, bashing on every little move nuWW makes won't change the fact you had fun playing a metaphorical rapist/junkie in Vampire.  For fuck's sake it's really simple: if you don't like company X for reasons, don't buy their product.  But quit trying to shame other people into joining your self-righteous little crusade.  People having fun will trump anything you or anyone else says anyway, and meanwhile the company can and will change, and the war for social justice won't matter nearly as much as sales."

Quote from: VengerSatanis;970340I finally got around to reading the playtest scenario.  Nope.  

When was the last time you remember Venger using the phrase "inappropriate content?"  Exactly.  This goes too far for me personally and the RPG hobby/industry/community as a whole, I hope.  I'm distancing myself from everything White Wolf starting now.  If you want to know more, feel free to read my blog.

VS

Quote from: Baulderstone;970372...they have never actually done anything for anybody unless you consider Internet bullying to be a form of philanthropy.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970380Mark Rein-Hagen gets a lot of crap as the creator of the World of Darkness, but both early Ars Magica and early World of Darkness were solidly playable games, and the long treadmill of books lacking any gameable content comes later.

I don't know if there is really an alternative vision where Rein-Hagen stayed in control. I get the feeling he didn't have a lot of interest in long-term development. He did some great stuff for Ars Magica and moved on. He did the same with Vampire. After a few years of WoD, he was tired of that and began working on Exile, his science-fiction game. When White Wolf killed it during development, he moved on from the company. I think he was done with Vampire at the time.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970406First Edition Vampire was all Mark. Everything that came after wasn't. White Wolf made it plain that they had the creative control. Not him.

That's why the other games in the cWoD seemed choppy and inconsistent. Because they were tacked on and developed without his input.

Mark had a clear vision of how he wanted things to go with Vampire. How he wanted it developed. How he wanted it presented. But the financial backers didn't agree.

It's not the first time where a creator had the rug pulled out from under them.

He didn't create the World Of Darkness. He created Vampire: The Masquerade. A game that was meant to be self contained.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970371Instead. We got the inmates running the asylum. After Mark was driven out.

OPP and their freelancers are still those inmates. And apparently. They haven't learned a thing from their continual string of failures. From the fact that they drove the original White Wolf into the ground.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300As for Kenneth Hite, He rocks! He is one of the most clear and concise writers in the RPG world. I'd be interested to see what he brings for the new edition of Vampire. I'd wager it'll be about a hundred times better than the morose navel gazing and whinging that has spread far and wide and managed to infect even the RPGsite here.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;970457Lol. Indeed. I saw an interview with him once and he seems like a nice guy. Definitely not the huge swine Pundit seems to think he is. I think that honor goes to the new guard that took over.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970462The real swine are Justin Achilli, Satyros Brucato, Martin Ericsson, David Hill, Holden Shearer, and most of the crew at Onyx Path. They're all either SJW commies or pretentious Goth and Punk edgelords or both.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;970457Lol. Indeed. I saw an interview with him once and he seems like a nice guy. Definitely not the huge swine Pundit seems to think he is. I think that honor goes to the new guard that took over.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;9704711st edition was dedicated to Vaclav Havel!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970305I have found nowhere in any real definition of an RPG (not yours!) that requires that you play with any such restrictions - particularly in horror roleplaying which is pretty much made up of unsocial and unsavoury aspects by virtue of the genre it represents.

Or just avoid playing horror RPGs?

Quote from: Dumarest;970494So he's opposed to Slovak independence?

QuoteDedication: This game is dedicated to Vaclav Havel, Poet, Playwright, & Statesman - who was its inspiration.

"We are still under the sway of the destructive and vain belief that man is the pinnacle of creation, and not just a part of it, and that, therefore, everything is permitted .... We are incapable of understanding that the only genuine backbone of our actions - if they are to be moral - is responsibility - responsibility to something higher than my family, my country, my firm, my success. Responsibility to the order of Being, where all our actions are indelibly recorded and where, and only where, they will be properly judged."  - Vaclav Havel, in a speech to the United States Congress

Quote from: GameDaddy;970504Eh? It's not the unsocial or unsavory aspects that make a horror game great, but the unknown, the suspense or the delayed anticipation, and the elements of surprise combined... In some very rare cases the unsocial or unsavory aspects, combined with the remainder mentioned here can salvage an otherwise bad story or game experience, however I have found that to be the extreme exception and not the norm for any type of horror, be it games, written stories, or movies.

Hacks who rely on making their games interesting by adding unsocial or unsavory aspects are a mentally crippled lot that offer the players few opportunities for any type of creative control over their experience. They instead, are simply misery tourism guides intent on ensuring the dues ex machina of their failed storylines and plots are executed without player agency being able to effect the story. Now this is simply not roleplaying if the players can't change what they do, or if the outcome of their actions in a scenario, or adventure can't be changed or otherwise altered to create a positive situation, or outcome. If the only situation is that we have to have unsocial or unsavory aspects for our horror game, then it is not a horror game, but a different railroad, an express freight train to completely different hell, one, where true horror (and fear) don't exist, and is replaced by a numbing boredom instead that is insensitivity, and indifference.

There are many, many B-grade horror movies, but only a very few horror masterpieces, games, or movies, or books with the power to scare the living S&$^ out of you. These would be games, or books, ...or movies that make you wake up sweating, or screaming in terror, or that make you too afraid to turn out all the lights, or that are so scary that you are completely unwilling to sit in the unquiet dark, alone, by yourself. Throwing in a few unsocial or unsavory aspects won't get you these experiences, although they may sicken, or revolt your average eleven year old.

So, who is your game really for? is it for mature adults looking for quite possibly a thrilling and simultaneously terrifying experience, or is your game just there, so you can gross out eleven year olds? inquiring minds are keen to know. My horror games are for the adults.

Also, if anyone can save White Wolf just on the quality of his writing alone, I'd once again have to endorse Kenneth Hite over pretty much anyone, including Mark Rein-Hagan.

For anyone here unfamiliar with his true qualities of Kenneth Hite as a game designer, writer, foodie, and movie critic, feel free to google Prince of Cairo and Livejournal, and educate yourself.

Quote from: AsenRG;970383I've generally found that when someone starts telling me what's the whole purpose and the entire goal of something...that person needs to leathe rn a) more about the subject and b) humility (hint: the purpose might differ for other people).
The general observation holds true in this case, alas:).

Quote from: AsenRG;970383Hint: one of those things I underlined isn't like the others:D! (I also put it in bold in case you're wondering).
And referring to all of them as "negative behaviours", "toxins", "such sordid and sad roleplaying content", "poisons" and "trash" really, really doesn't help me believe your statement that you're "not triggered". You sure seem triggered to me:p!
Or, if you're not triggered...why do you hate sex so much;)?  

Quote from: GameDaddy;970508...I see, so you are adding some new goals to RPGs then, that weren't originally part of the rules for games in general or horror in particular. Just what are you hoping to acheive in doing this?
Eh? ...WTF are you on about? What kind of drugs, prescriptions, or illegal cocktails would possibly make you believe that, based on what I wrote here earlier?  For the record though, I will state I have a very extreme prejudice against depictions of sex and violence in roleplaying games, even for horror RPG. Reason is, ...and you should learn this, ...just so you don't accidentally execute anyone vulnerable, by your arrogant display of extreme stupidity here today, and becuase you don't understand the power of your words yet, is there are alot of people who can be triggered into depression, or even a suicidal depression by unexpected combinations of sex and violence. So when you are saying it's ok to depict these in your RPG because it's just a game, you are saying it's ok to assault these people, becuase ...duh  your game is a horror game, and they should expect to be mentally raped.

Finally, my personal sex life is none of your business.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970509Mark Rein-Hagen may have loved sociology, but he was nowhere near as pretentious as Justin Achilli. That man did more than anyone else to ruin WoD with his "One True Way" agenda of cramming personal horror down everyone's throats, whereas Rein-Hagen simply offered personal horror as one of several equally valid themes in VTM 1e. (Yes, I know the back cover of VTM 1e says "A Storytelling Game of Personal Horror" but that's largely window dressing compared to what's actually in the book).

Achilli is a talentless hack, a pretentious Goth, and both White Wolf and Onyx Path are still following his style even after years of failure. It was his pretentious angsty Goth shit that ultimately sabotaged Requiem, which in a lot of ways, was a much needed improvement after the excesses of Masquerade Revised (which also crashed and burned due to his attitude combined with a horrid metaplot). The insistence of thematic purity in a game that's otherwise designed to be a toolbox helped sabotage Requiem (that and all the pissed off Masquerade fans who refused to change). Things like the emotional deadness and Predator's Taint stand out in particular, as they were so counter-productive, even Onyx Path canned those things in the second edition of Requiem (but otherwise, Requiem 2e is a horrible game compared to 1e, what with all the unnecessary mechanical and setting changes).

The derision and condemnation of anyone who strayed from the party line and didn't play angsty and pretentious edgelord Gothic personal horror probably hurt sales and hurt WoD's reputation as a whole, and a lot of that can be attributed to Justin Achilli, especially in Revised Masquerade and early Requiem.

Mark Rein-Hagen may have had his quirks and maybe a few Goth or SJW tendencies, but Justin Achilli is by far the worse of the two.

I say fuck Justin Achilli and his pretentious Gothic personal horror bullshit nonsense! I say we don our trenchcoats, grab our katanas, kick personal horror to the curb, and give the finger to the Goth subculture!

Anime rules, Marvel and DC suck! Fuck the Goth subculture and fuck personal horror!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970512Get over you hatred of Achilli, Doc Sammy!

Quote from: GameDaddy;970504Eh? It's not the unsocial or unsavory aspects that make a horror game great, but the unknown, the suspense or the delayed anticipation, and the elements of surprise combined...

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970512Get over you hatred of Achilli, Doc Sammy!

Quote from: Baulderstone;970534It's bad enough watching Pundit angrily shadowboxing with JMal, a guy who left the RPG world five years ago. Achilli went off to work on videogames over a decade ago. It's tilting at a place where a windmill once was.

Quote from: Voros;970537Until the arrival of the seminal Night of the Living Dead and Texas Chainsaw Massacre horror films use to be much less overtly trangressive, bloody and violent. I admire both approachs, The Haunted is a masterpiece but so is Audition, and both are legit in horror games.

In the CoC classic Masks of Nyarlathotep the investigators can end up witnessing horrors raping cult victims, I believe that is during the English section, so distasteful content has a long tradition in horror gaming let alone horror films.

Quote from: Voros;970537Until the arrival of the seminal Night of the Living Dead and Texas Chainsaw Massacre horror films use to be much less overtly trangressive, bloody and violent. I admire both approachs, The Haunted is a masterpiece but so is Audition, and both are legit in horror games.

QuoteIn the CoC classic Masks of Nyarlathotep the investigators can end up witnessing horrors raping cult victims, I believe that is during the English section, so distasteful content has a long tradition in horror gaming let alone horror films.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970539Actually, Achilli has done work for OPP. So he's still in the mix.

Quote from: VengerSatanis;970171Just so long as it doesn't devolve into Innocent Blood.  [Shudder]

VS

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970509Mark Rein-Hagen may have loved sociology, but he was nowhere near as pretentious as Justin Achilli. That man did more than anyone else to ruin WoD with his "One True Way" agenda of cramming personal horror down everyone's throats, whereas Rein-Hagen simply offered personal horror as one of several equally valid themes in VTM 1e.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970555As an aside, nobody ever goes to Australia. Nobody ever even talks about it. They made the right call in cutting that chapter from the first edition.

Quote from: Aglondir;970567I don't think that's accurate.  

Up until Achilli, the game had two themes: personal horror, and the Jyhad (elders vs. anarchs.) Both had been dying for a while, but Achilli finalized it by focusing the game on the Grand Sabbat War. The other thing he did was kill the Ravnos with the power of metaplot (thankfully.) But as a result, the Technocracy became the big bad ass faction of the WOD, proving that Mage was always the bullshit we suspected it was (throwback losers fighting against penicillin and air conditioning.)

Quote from: Marleycat;970574...allowed the Nephandi to win the whole thing without a fight.

Quote from: Nexus;970570I don't follow?

Quote from: Aglondir;970575Eh? Explain.

Quote from: Voros;970581I actually love the Australia chapter but yeah it has nothing to do with the rest of the adventure.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970576I was going off on a tangent. In the original draft of MoN, there was a chapter set in Australia. It got cut before it was published. It later got put in the supplement Terror Australis. Then in the mid-90s, they published a revised version of MoN and put the Australian chapter back in.

Having run MoN multiple times, it just doesn't have strong enough hooks to get anyone to travel there. My point was that it was actually a reasonable idea to cut it. It's a perfectly good adventure. It just is wasted as part of MoN.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970508...I see, so you are adding some new goals to RPGs then, that weren't originally part of the rules for games in general or horror in particular. Just what are you hoping to acheive in doing this?



Eh? ...WTF are you on about? What kind of drugs, prescriptions, or illegal cocktails would possibly make you believe that, based on what I wrote here earlier?  For the record though, I will state I have a very extreme prejudice against depictions of sex and violence in roleplaying games, even for horror RPG. Reason is, ...and you should learn this, ...just so you don't accidentally execute anyone vulnerable, by your arrogant display of extreme stupidity here today, and becuase you don't understand the power of your words yet, is there are alot of people who can be triggered into depression, or even a suicidal depression by unexpected combinations of sex and violence. So when you are saying it's ok to depict these in your RPG because it's just a game, you are saying it's ok to assault these people, becuase ...duh  your game is a horror game, and they should expect to be mentally raped.

Finally, my personal sex life is none of your business.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970511I think what we are all saying is that we can differentiate between what is real and what is fictional, and that creative fiction doesn't have arbitrary restrictions based upon the sensibilities of prudes.

Quote from: Aglondir;970567I don't think that's accurate.  

Up until Achilli, the game had two themes: personal horror, and the Jyhad (elders vs. anarchs.) Both had been dying for a while, but Achilli finalized it by focusing the game on the Grand Sabbat War. The other thing he did was kill the Ravnos with the power of metaplot (thankfully.) But as a result, the Technocracy became the big bad ass faction of the WOD, proving that Mage was always the bullshit we suspected it was (throwback losers fighting against penicillin and air conditioning.)

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970545It isn't horror that original White Wolf and OPP presented. It's splatterpunk and shock.

The people at original White Wolf and OPP wouldn't know horror if it came up and french kissed them.

Horror is about evoking fear. With a thick spooky atmosphere. And a sense of creeping dread. It's about emotion, instinct. Reducing an otherwise normal sane human being to a creature of pure terrified instinct.

Quote from: Voros;970588I would love to run Masks with my current group as I've converted them to CoC. Any tips? It seems to me that its quite heavy on cultists and that could get a bit samey. Also the first major encounter seems like a likely TPK.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970504Eh? It's not the unsocial or unsavory aspects that make a horror game great, but the unknown, the suspense or the delayed anticipation, and the elements of surprise combined... In some very rare cases the unsocial or unsavory aspects, combined with the remainder mentioned here can salvage an otherwise bad story or game experience, however I have found that to be the extreme exception and not the norm for any type of horror, be it games, written stories, or movies.

Hacks who rely on making their games interesting by adding unsocial or unsavory aspects are a mentally crippled lot that offer the players few opportunities for any type of creative control over their experience. They instead, are simply misery tourism guides intent on ensuring the dues ex machina of their failed storylines and plots are executed without player agency being able to effect the story. Now this is simply not roleplaying if the players can't change what they do, or if the outcome of their actions in a scenario, or adventure can't be changed or otherwise altered to create a positive situation, or outcome. If the only situation is that we have to have unsocial or unsavory aspects for our horror game, then it is not a horror game, but a different railroad, an express freight train to completely different hell, one, where true horror (and fear) don't exist, and is replaced by a numbing boredom instead that is insensitivity, and indifference.

There are many, many B-grade horror movies, but only a very few horror masterpieces, games, or movies, or books with the power to scare the living S&$^ out of you. These would be games, or books, ...or movies that make you wake up sweating, or screaming in terror, or that make you too afraid to turn out all the lights, or that are so scary that you are completely unwilling to sit in the unquiet dark, alone, by yourself. Throwing in a few unsocial or unsavory aspects won't get you these experiences, although they may sicken, or revolt your average eleven year old.

So, who is your game really for? is it for mature adults looking for quite possibly a thrilling and simultaneously terrifying experience, or is your game just there, so you can gross out eleven year olds? inquiring minds are keen to know. My horror games are for the adults.

Also, if anyone can save White Wolf just on the quality of his writing alone, I'd once again have to endorse Kenneth Hite over pretty much anyone, including Mark Rein-Hagan.

For anyone here unfamiliar with his true qualities of Kenneth Hite as a game designer, writer, foodie, and movie critic, feel free to google Prince of Cairo and Livejournal, and educate yourself.

Quote from: Marleycat;970560But Innocent Blood was pretty good :)

Honestly I hate vampires and metaphors they represent. I'm all in on most any version of Mage or sorcerers, witches, wizards and related and the metaphors they represent that I fully support VM5's attempt to portray vampires as the horrible predators and parasites that they are.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970629Metaplot sucks and I like the Ravnos. The Week of Nightmares was the point where it became too obvious that the metaplot had gotten out of hand and that Justin Achilli was out of control.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970643I'll PM you about it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;970657Bleah, fuck that noise. Do a Masks of Nyarlathotep Tips thread here or in Design, Development and Gameplay forum.
Why take useable gaming information to PM?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970648I hear you.

When Paizo mandated a honeytrap and rape quota for their bestiaries, I was disgusted. D&D has a long history of monsters which lure/rape/eat people (orcs which rape human women, lamias which pretend to be gorgeous women, etc), but Paizo took it to new heights. This trivializes the very real horror of rape and making it a generic monster modus operandi is just plain crass.

Other publishers have been so much worse. That shouldn't absolve Paizo, however.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970703It's been a thing in all of the monster books released during the D20 boom. Paizo has been largely just reprinting and presenting old, already published material in their Bestiaries.

If you are going to call them out. You have to call out their sources as well.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970703But personally. I don't like the idea or push to make monster books politically correct. They are monsters. They are supposed to be frightening and predatory.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970716I thought I did when I mentioned D&D has a history of similar stuff. Again, Paizo takes it to new heights. Several classic monsters from the Monster Manual and the Tome of Horrors that did not originally have rape as a background had it added by Paizo writers. Several wholly original monsters have rape as a modus operandi.

What do you mean by "politically correct"? Writers are the ones who insert gratuitous references to rape. How is them refraining from doing so a bad thing? Being eaten by a dragon is not something people worry about in reality. Rape is a very real problem that people worry about in first world countries.

We are playing games involving copious amounts of violence that some have criticized as crime fantasy. These games are marketed to both children and adults. How does adding copious references to rape, pedophilia, and so forth make the games more enjoyable than copious references to slaughter and cannibalism?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970716What do you mean by "politically correct"? Writers are the ones who insert gratuitous references to rape. How is them refraining from doing so a bad thing? Being eaten by a dragon is not something people worry about in reality. Rape is a very real problem that people worry about in first world countries.

We are playing games involving copious amounts of violence that some have criticized as crime fantasy. These games are marketed to both children and adults. How does adding copious references to rape, pedophilia, and so forth make the games more enjoyable than copious references to slaughter and cannibalism?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970717I don't follow Paizo much, but are these real rape monsters, or is this like the orcs=genocide argument?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970717I don't follow Paizo much, but are these real rape monsters, or is this like the orcs=genocide argument?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970722Monsters by themselves are characatures of people's fears. Fear has just as much diversity as the rest of life does. Fear is not comfortable by it's very definition. It's triggery to begin with. That is pretty much the whole point of the ideas being coalesced in the form of a monster. Monsters are people's fears incarnate.

Watering them down to be inoffensive sort of kills the whole point of their existence to begin with. That is what I meant by 'being politically correct'.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970727Rape does not belong at a gaming table.

Quote from: tenbones;970734It's like I just want to say - "Hey, you know *none* of this is real right?"

But then if i say that, it sounds condescending. As if I'm implying that you as the reader of these words are too stupid to understand that fairy-elf-games aren't real. It also implies that you are too ignorant to have any ability to discern reality from non-reality, or prioritize ethical conundrums presented to you in a real or virtual manner. It also implies that you have no capacity to enact the will to actively *choose* to not engage with things that disturb you. All of which is a red-flag that you have far more problems than the content of my words, and the intent on playing a game that both challenges normal people with healthy imaginations that do have these aforementioned capacities which clearly you do not is beyond your ability. So maybe don't do that?

But you know... WHO want's to say that?

Dang... there it is.

Quote from: Simlasa;970741But rampant slaughter is just fine? Good wholesome family fun?

Quote from: Simlasa;970741I've seen games collapse because of rape monsters getting rapey in games... it's best to warn players up front... but I'm not bothered by it myself, despite having friends and family who have suffered the real thing. Am I callous or can I just separate fact from fiction while some people appaently can't?
Also, I don't give any fucks for the, 'but what about the CHILDREN?!!!' bullshit. YOU spawned them, protecting them from the naughty bits is YOUR obsession... don't hamstring my entertainment because of your prudery.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;970745Cite, please.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970746The difference between sexual and non-sexual violence is that the former is pervasive in first world countries, whereas the latter is not. Depicting sexual violence for the purpose of shock value and high ratings is offensive and crass.

QuoteHow often have you actually been entertained by detailed sexual violence happening on-screen as opposed to using vague mentions that it happened off-screen as a lazy excuse to kill the rapist?

Quote from: Simlasa;970756What fantasy land do you live in? I hear about murders and attempted murders every day on the news. My gun fondling friends practically jizz themselves over fantasies of using their weapons to protect someone. We drive huge hunks of metal at high speeds and just about any time I leave the house I see one or two or more of them twisted up on the road. I know people who have been raped but I know even more who have been beaten and mentally abused.
The world around me is pretty violent. Why should rape get special dispensation? Is it just the 'sex' angle that gets people feeling all squicky? It's OK if the Deep Ones beat my wife, just don't dare touch her junk?

QuoteI'm generally not entertained by any sort of violence just for the sake of violence. Most modern action movies... ala John Wick... put me off. The voluminous killings seem to carry no weight or consequence. The average horror movie has far fewer deaths but each one likely to be presented as more significant than the hordes of anonymous drones cut down by the Bonds and Bournes and Jason Statham.
I'm fine with subtle horror as in The Haunting (still my favorite horror movie). But sometimes the story is served by having the nasty bits on stage on stage. The rape scene in Irreversible felt necessary but I didn't find myself at a loss for not witnessing Stanley rape Blanche in Streetcar Named Desire.

I'd rather have the writer/director/gaming group decide what 'belongs'... vs. some guy making blanket statements because he is afraid his kid might see some nudity or hear a swear word.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970799I gloss over combat rather than painstakingly describing the gore. Don't most people?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970799All I want to do is commit bloodless, guiltless massacres of soulless puppets the DM churns out by the truckload. I don't want to worry about ethnic cleansing or rape tournaments. Is that too much to ask?

Quote from: Nexus;970820Not at all. No one is making you include in your games. That's different from saying no rpgs or games can ever use such material if they chose is taking things too far.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;970824On the other hand, I think the question of "What do these creatures add to the game?" is a legitimate one.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970799It may seem impossible, but crime in the first world is at an all time low.

QuoteThe "deep ones are rapists" meme is only circumstantially supported by the text of Shadow over Innsmouth.

QuoteI gloss over combat rather than painstakingly describing the gore. Don't most people?

QuoteAt least have the decency to include an "adults only" warning label when you feel like being an edge-lord who thinks casually mentioning rape is fashionable.

QuoteAll I want to do is commit bloodless, guiltless massacres of soulless puppets the DM churns out by the truckload. I don't want to worry about ethnic cleansing or rape tournaments. Is that too much to ask?

Quote from: CRKrueger;970658Whenever someone does, they make it abundantly clear that the psychological issue in question belongs to them and not the mutually consenting adults who don't share their views.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842I'm also going to give everyone here a very specific example of an incident that occurred in 1984.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842Now when a game is deliberately depicted morally reprehensible behavior, it is clearly sending a message that such behavior should be considered ok, and that it is ok that such behavior exists, otherwise, we wouldn't have to include it the game, right????

Quote from: Simlasa;970845I don't see that your story has fuck all to do with IMAGINARY stuff that happens during a game of make-believe.
Also, I think your wrong about people coming and going from game groups missing the introductory 'warning'. Most all the GMs I've played with screen people to some degree and give an overview of how they run games, rules of the house... and warnings if the subject matter seems to warrant it. Most Players I've played with seem to feel no compunction about letting the GM know when something bugs them.
If someone really is so fragile that they'll suffer trauma from playing make-believe then they've got issues they should prioritize before doing so... and not rely on gamers/amateurs to recognize their illness and administer treatment for it.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842...Snip...

Quote from: tenbones;970734It's like I just want to say - "Hey, you know *none* of this is real right?"

But then if i say that, it sounds condescending. As if I'm implying that you as the reader of these words are too stupid to understand that fairy-elf-games aren't real. It also implies that you are too ignorant to have any ability to discern reality from non-reality, or prioritize ethical conundrums presented to you in a real or virtual manner. It also implies that you have no capacity to enact the will to actively *choose* to not engage with things that disturb you. All of which is a red-flag that you have far more problems than the content of my words, and the intent on playing a game that both challenges normal people with healthy imaginations that do have these aforementioned capacities which clearly you do not is beyond your ability. So maybe don't do that?

But you know... WHO want's to say that?

Dang... there it is.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970471His falling out with White Wolf came about mainly in the development of his sci-fi game, Exile (a sort of formative attempt at a trans humanist rpg), which he mooted as being part of a non-profit game world called the Null Foundation. I think WW may have baulked at this because, at the time, their success as a business was starting to wind down a bit. That is a speculation, but it was certainly the time that they fell out. They promoted Exile for the best part of a year, from memory, with an online development site, before rapidly switch and releasing Aeon without hardly any real marketing.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;970880Cite, please.

(Or is this going to be another case you thinking that "hyperbole" and "completely inaccurate" are synonymous?)

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842I just think it is very irresponsible for a GM to introduce, or re-introduce a traumatizing experience for a person who may be unaware of exactly what is implied with a disclaimer that is being provided during a game, or at the gaming table.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842True story.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842For all you ignorant cucs out there

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842that are prancing about all happy in your wrapped up tiny, ignorant world, and spouting joy at transgressing and edgelording, and toeing the line, I have observed people doing exactly that. One ended up dead, and the other psychologically crippled, maybe for always. Good luck with that, and I don't. and won't approve.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970800So violence in any given media is OK as long as you gloss over and sanitise the gory bits, and ensure there is no visceral impact on the audience?

Quote from: Nexus;970820Not at all. No one is making you include in your games. That's different from saying no rpgs or games can ever use such material if they chose is taking things too far.

Quote from: Simlasa;970827Again, why for rape and not for violence and torture in general?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;970880Cite, please.

(Or is this going to be another case you thinking that "hyperbole" and "completely inaccurate" are synonymous?)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891Fantasy roleplaying is typically crime fantasy. You are breaking into people's homes to murder them and loot their possessions. Endless hobgoblin holocaust without pretense. Of course I would want to sanitize that.

Quote from: san dee jota;970895Why -is- criminal behavior such a common driving force of RPGs?

Quote from: Warboss Squee;970864Being adults, it worked. Maybe more people should act like adults.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891It was wrong of me to confuse the two. I find Paizo's simultaneous preoccupation with rape, monster girls and radical feminism (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Andrazku) to be more than a little bit creepy. I am sorry for claiming that their questionable writing direction equates to instituting a non-existent rape quota.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891Fantasy roleplaying is typically crime fantasy. You are breaking into people's homes to murder them and loot their possessions. Endless hobgoblin holocaust without pretense. Of course I would want to sanitize that.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842True story.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970896I wouldn't call criminal behavior a driving force in RPGs, but violence and crime are definitely part of the landscape. Violence in entertainment is exciting. I'm fine with games with mechanics that emphasize other types of confrontation or eschew violence in general, but when people start talking about 'why do so many games encourage violence' or get entertain ideas like eliminating violence from RPGs will eliminate violence in the real world, I think that is a misguided view.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;970897Okay, in the other direction, people aren't saying you are doing that, either.

Quote from: CRKrueger;970900Yet more proof of Problem Exists in Mirror.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970896I wouldn't call criminal behavior a driving force in RPGs, but violence and crime are definitely part of the landscape. Violence in entertainment is exciting. I'm fine with games with mechanics that emphasize other types of confrontation or eschew violence in general, but when people start talking about 'why do so many games encourage violence' or get entertain ideas like eliminating violence from RPGs will eliminate violence in the real world, I think that is a misguided view.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891Fantasy roleplaying is typically crime fantasy. You are breaking into people's homes to murder them and loot their possessions. Endless hobgoblin holocaust without pretense. Of course I would want to sanitize that.

QuoteI do not want to censor developers. I would prefer that fantasy violence and grotesque fetishist violence be packaged separately.

QuoteThe two factors that make sexual violence worse than other forms of violence is that other forms of violence may be justified in certain circumstances and allegations of rape are often not taken seriously.

Quote from: Simlasa;970945I'm sure some people play in that 'shooting gallery' mode but it's not been in my experience. There's just about always a pretense for the violence, as well as consequences. Maybe it's because I generally prefer games with deadlier combat and where XP isn't linked to killing things (DCC being an exception). Most of the people I've played with frown on random murder for profit schemes and will act to stop a PC who seems to have purely criminal intent.
Heck, in our game this week my PC wanted to steal some horses (we needed to travel fast) but the others refused and we ended up walking instead.

Quote from: Simlasa;970945Separately how? There's barely any RPG material on the store shelves around here for someone to blindly stumble into. OBS has their adult content filter and most game material has descriptions and reviews to aid in decisions. Games that self-describe as 'horror' and 'crime' give a clue to their contents.
I've never run a game that's had active rape in it... the closest is knowing what the Broo or some other horror has done or might do. If I've bought something that had an element I was uncomfortable with I felt free to change it.

Quote from: Simlasa;970945I'm not buying it. Yeah, some forms of violence are sometimes justified and rape never is... but even justified violence is horrific, not a cause for celebration. Something most sane people hope to avoid. But in fiction (and games) I'm not seeing why one form of trouble should be shunned unless the author/GM/Group chooses to.
My sister was raped, one of my best friends was raped... but seeing rape in a movie/book/game has no connection for me to those realities. I have a friend who was hit and killed by a car... but I'll still run down bad guys in GTA.

Quote from: Vile Jester;970320Anything you think might mitigate that?

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842when a game is deliberately depicted morally reprehensible behavior, it is clearly sending a message that such behavior should be considered ok, and that it is ok that such behavior exists, otherwise, we wouldn't have to include it the game, right????

Quote from: Voros;970882The funny thing is that The Shadow over Innsmouth ends on a ambigiously ecstatic note. Lovecraft's writing is nothing if not a fascinating psychosexual stew.

"The tense extremes of horror are lessening, and I feel queerly drawn toward the unknown sea-deeps instead of fearing them. I hear and do strange things in sleep, and awake with a kind of exaltation instead of terror. I do not believe I need to wait for the full change as most have waited. If I did, my father would probably shut me up in a sanitarium as my poor little cousin is shut up. Stupendous and unheard-of splendours await me below, and I shall seek them soon. Iä-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä! Iä! No, I shall not shoot myself—I cannot be made to shoot myself!

I shall plan my cousin's escape from that Canton madhouse, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Innsmouth. We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Y'ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever."

Quote from: Voros;970882The funny thing is that The Shadow over Innsmouth ends on a ambigiously ecstatic note. Lovecraft's writing is nothing if not a fascinating psychosexual stew.

"The tense extremes of horror are lessening, and I feel queerly drawn toward the unknown sea-deeps instead of fearing them. I hear and do strange things in sleep, and awake with a kind of exaltation instead of terror. I do not believe I need to wait for the full change as most have waited. If I did, my father would probably shut me up in a sanitarium as my poor little cousin is shut up. Stupendous and unheard-of splendours await me below, and I shall seek them soon. Iä-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä! Iä! No, I shall not shoot myself—I cannot be made to shoot myself!
     I shall plan my cousin's escape from that Canton madhouse, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Innsmouth. We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Y'ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever."

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;970967People often seek heightened drama in their game situations that they would work very hard to avoid in any real life situation that was even remotely similar.  Yeah, I know, exceptions.  Just like there are people that want drama around them 24/7, there are people that really would prefer playing out the negotiated settlement with the nearby goblin colony, with an "acceptable"  level of stealing, raiding, and a protocol for when the knives come out.  They are the exceptions that prove the rule.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970959Paizo makes no attempt at providing content ratings. I prefer to keep my violence at PG-13 or below. No gore, no rape, no nothing. It does not entertain me.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970959Paizo makes no attempt at providing content ratings. I prefer to keep my violence at PG-13 or below. No gore, no rape, no nothing. It does not entertain me.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970963"The Whisperer in Darkness" is another ambiguous one. Maybe the Mi-go really are selling a transhuman utopia. The shelved, dusty braincases suggest maybe they aren't, but perhaps they are just waiting to get back to Yuggoth to get them properly plugged in.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970975It is just about catharsis. We like danger and drama in our movies and TV because we can get the emotional release they provide at a safe remove.

Quote from: tenbones;971012Where do rot-grubs burrowing into humanoids, where they meet, fall in love and lay their eggs, fall into the rape-murder spectrum of outrage?

Quote from: Simlasa;970996
Which extends to some people, women and men, having rape fantasies that they enjoy acting out with trusted partners. Still make-believe and still OK between consenting adults IMO.[/QUOTEOne of the two times rape came up directly in a game I was running the person playing the character (a woman) refused my offer to have her character saved by a deus ex machina or give her a do over. She felt it would ruin the sense of consequence and accountability. The character had made several bad choices and this was the logical result. So it not always a fetish issue, in this case it was her desire for verisimilitude and accountability and she felt it was make for interesting rp handling how the PC dealt with it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891Fantasy roleplaying is typically crime fantasy. You are breaking into people's homes to murder them and loot their possessions. Endless hobgoblin holocaust without pretense. Of course I would want to sanitize that.

Quote from: tenbones;971012Where do rot-grubs burrowing into humanoids, where they meet, fall in love and lay their eggs, fall into the rape-murder spectrum of outrage?

Quote from: CRKrueger;971054I thought Rot Grubs represented White European Colonialism.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970896I wouldn't call criminal behavior a driving force in RPGs, but violence and crime are definitely part of the landscape. Violence in entertainment is exciting. I'm fine with games with mechanics that emphasize other types of confrontation or eschew violence in general, but when people start talking about 'why do so many games encourage violence' or get entertain ideas like eliminating violence from RPGs will eliminate violence in the real world, I think that is a misguided view.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970908I do not believe in eliminating violence. Violent media does not cause violence in real life. Consuming violent media does not desensitize you if you experience real violence. I would like to have the explicit option of gaining XP for solving problems at all, regardless of whether violence was involved.

Quote from: GameDaddy;971063I doubt eliminating violence in RPGs will eliminate violence in the real world. I just don't see the need for RPGs to emulate the real world, especially with a focus on sex and violence. RPGs should encompass or cover much much more than that, and to focus on that exclusively, is well, unhealthy.

Also, ...concerning triggering the GameDaddy. I wrote one post and received four pages of flames as a response. Who is triggered now??? Hahahahah...

Quote from: Nexus;971066Who was talking about rpgs focusing exclusively on sex and violence?

Quote from: GameDaddy;971065Why yes, Violent Media does cause additional violence in real life. See also;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XN2X72jrFk

Quote from: Warboss Squee;971090Sure. And violent video games cause violence as well. And games can make you sexist too!

Quote from: Warboss Squee;971090Sure. And violent video games cause violence as well.

Quote from: Baulderstone;971098It's why Japan is the most violent nation on Earth.

Quote from: GameDaddy;971063I doubt eliminating violence in RPGs will eliminate violence in the real world. I just don't see the need for RPGs to emulate the real world, especially with a focus on sex and violence. RPGs should encompass or cover much much more than that, and to focus on that exclusively, is well, unhealthy.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;971090Sure. And violent video games cause violence as well. And games can make you sexist too!

Quote from: GameDaddy;971124They are, rather they have been a bit shy about showing that though after their emperor told them not to. But that was only after we firebombed their cities and leveled them, and dropped city busting bombs on them to give them a taste of their own medicine. They still like to practice though, to just keep their skills sharp.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;971125I've said this over and over again, but of all the people I know, RPG gamers are among the least violent and least aggressive.

Quote from: GameDaddy;971131I'm not certain I agree with this for a few reasons. I would readily agree however, that rpg gamers at least appear the least violent and aggressive, that doesn't mean they are though.

First reason: You will not be targeted if you do not appear to be a threat. i.e. If someone is excessively violent, or predisposed towards violence, but they don't show it, they won't attract the attention of authorities, gatekeepers, and guardians.  

Second reason: Stupid people make mistakes and are easily identified, the smart people, not so much, so they don't openly display their predispositions to harm others.

..and it is true, there are many people that are attracted to gaming because it appears so few people are inclined to extreme behavior, ...except in-game of course, where such behaviors can be practiced without any consequences.

Quote from: GameDaddy;971131..and it is true, there are many people that are attracted to gaming because it appears so few people are inclined to extreme behavior, ...except in-game of course, where such behaviors can be practiced without any consequences.

Quote from: GameDaddy;971131I'm not certain I agree with this for a few reasons. I would readily agree however, that rpg gamers at least appear the least violent and aggressive, that doesn't mean they are though.

First reason: You will not be targeted if you do not appear to be a threat. i.e. If someone is excessively violent, or predisposed towards violence, but they don't show it, they won't attract the attention of authorities, gatekeepers, and guardians.  

Second reason: Stupid people make mistakes and are easily identified, the smart people, not so much, so they don't openly display their predispositions to harm others.

..and it is true, there are many people that are attracted to gaming because it appears so few people are inclined to extreme behavior, ...except in-game of course, where such behaviors can be practiced without any consequences.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;971216Sounds a lot like you are trying to reconcile yourself and your own latent feelings here, dude.

[You don't own a gun do you? Good.]

Quote from: CRKrueger;971232I'm sure he does.  I do as well.  So?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;971237Well, I'd like to keep my identity anonymous around here in the meantime and am appreciative of the gaming group I have, I guess! :)

Quote from: CRKrueger;971249You should try shooting, it's pretty fun.  A Cisco instructor I know is an old Navy guy from SOG in 'Nam.  He wasn't a Seal, he was the Seal's boat-driver. :D  In his 70's he's still Hell and Jesus with a .45.  Anyway, he got me down to the range.  Finally got a pistol ~a year and a half ago.  It's like anything I guess, it's fun getting better at something.

Gamedaddy strikes me as an old school live-and-let-live, let's each just mind our own damn business kind of guy, not an internet tough guy threat machine.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;971257I live in New Zealand, and we have plenty of hunting & fishing culture here already. Not really my point.

My point being: if someone is arguing that he, as a gaming enthusiast, is merely inhibiting deep-seated violent tendencies expressed through gaming (and blurring the notion that gamers can generally tell the difference between fantasy and reality)..... then I wouldn't want him to have a gun. 'Nuff said.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971259You live in New Zealand, here's a question you're probably tired as fuck of hearing... have you been to the hill where Edoras was, and how much was CGI? :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;971259You live in New Zealand, here's a question you're probably tired as fuck of hearing... have you been to the hill where Edoras was, and how much was CGI? :D

Quote from: TrippyHippy;971284Peter Jackson lives up the road from where I live. He has a life-sized model of an orc in his foyer.

Quote from: Voros;971465Peter Jackson directed all the LOTR and Hobbit films. The LOTR films started well and went downhill I thought as Jackson paid too much fanservice to the LOTR nerds. The Hobbit butchered a fine book by stretching it to absurd lengths and shoehorning in numerous unneccessary action scenes. There is a two hour fanedit out there that cuts all the fat away and is nearly a good movie.

Quote from: Voros;971465There is a two hour fanedit out there that cuts all the fat away and is nearly a good movie.

Quote from: Simlasa;971469I saw that and it was ok... and enough to tell me that I did NOT want to watch the full length Hobbit movies. They really did pump in a lot of extraneous nonsense on those... almost like they were trying to launch a wider franchise of Middle-Earth Universe (as with the Marvel/DC films and that craptacular Mummy film Universal shat out recently).

Quote from: CRKrueger;971468You realize most of the unnecessary action scenes and absurd length is due to Jackson moving away from the books, telling his own versions of things, and it's the "LotR Nerds" who called him on it most of all...or maybe you don't.  You're confusing Jackson fanbois for LotR nerds I think.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;971284Peter Jackson lives up the road from where I live. He has a life-sized model of an orc in his foyer.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971472It was just a money grab.  You really could make the Lord of the Rings into three movies.  You really can't for the Hobbit, even if you throw in Gandalf's off-scene adventures with the White Council and the machinations of Orcs and Elves.  Maybe you could make two tight movies out of it, but three bloated hollywood monstrosities was idiotic, and Jackson knows it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971232I'm sure he does.  I do as well.  So?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;971284Peter Jackson lives up the road from where I live. He has a life-sized model of an orc in his foyer.

Quote from: Simlasa;970945My sister was raped, one of my best friends was raped... but seeing rape in a movie/book/game has no connection for me to those realities. I have a friend who was hit and killed by a car... but I'll still run down bad guys in GTA.

Quote from: Simlasa;970996'In the Walls of Eryx' is a later tale and non-Mythos scifi but it has a a similar shift as 'Innsmouth' when the narrator at the end comes to realize his blind prejudice and crimes against the natives.
Lovecraft was a bit more complex than some like to allow.

Quote from: Simlasa;970996Which extends to some people, women and men, having rape fantasies that they enjoy acting out with trusted partners. Still make-believe and still OK between consenting adults IMO.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;971036Then are you not encouraging impressionable minds to think that this sort of behaviour has no consequence or impact?

Quote from: GameDaddy;971065Why yes, Violent Media does cause additional violence in real life.

Quote from: GameDaddy;971127Brainwashing (also known as mind control, menticide, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, and re-education) is the non-scientific concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques. Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject's ability to think critically or independently, to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into the subject's mind,as well as to change his or her attitudes, values, and beliefs.

Quote from: GameDaddy;971529She have my permission to shoot you if you feeling up to trespassing, or if she even feels threatened. I have had to run off a loser before. Don't think he was a gamer though, however he was in my house trying to rob me.

Quote from: GameDaddy;971529I just think it's a waste of good RPG time to focus so much on violence to the exclusion of everything else.

Quote from: Simlasa;970992I've got little to no experience with Paizo's products. I know they're wildly popular.
Do they sell via OBS (which has an adult filter?
Has anyone pushed them to add content warnings?
Do reviews and summary descriptions not mention the bits that upset you?
Does it bother you despite the fact that you can add/drop/delete anything you want before running it?
Do you want them to offer sanitized versions ala what's being done with some Hollywood movies?

Quote from: Dumarest;970993So write a letter to Paizo complaining and then boycott them when they decline to label their products as if the audience was made up of preteens.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;971036Then are you not encouraging impressionable minds to think that this sort of behaviour has no consequence or impact?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;971255I'd be interested in seeing your list. My initial search of the first four Bestiaries turned up only one use of the word "rape". Obviously euphemistic references might be possible; I'm just curious what they supposedly are.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;971611It is a time consuming pain to read through a book and take notes on the number of creepy fetish monsters. I like knowing in advance to save time and effort.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;971611Most of the time it is explained euphemistically. Most of the rape monsters are female and use violence, mind control or money to coerce or cajole male adventurers into having sex with them. The party is expected to kill said monsters or, if non-evil, find some poor sap to feed them.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;971632I could be wrong, but it sounds like your definition of rape monster may be a bit more expansive than most folks. If we are eliminating any seductive creatures that takes out a pretty big trope from myth, legend and fantasy.

Quote from: san dee jota;971638Not a comment on anyone in this thread (seriously)....

I feel like somewhere there's a barbarian warrior who hates elves because they're too sexy (maybe the males and females both), and create unrealistic expectations of beauty for human women.  And, by extension, he thinks elves are evil because they choose to be sooo sooo sexy.  This barbarian has some issues.

Quote from: Dumarest;971682The barbarian's problem is that he is intensely (and probably secretly) sexually attracted to elves and wishes he weren't as it's clearly a tribal taboo; thus his hostility to elves.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;971632I could be wrong, but it sounds like your definition of rape monster may be a bit more expansive than most folks. If we are eliminating any seductive creatures that takes out a pretty big trope from myth, legend and fantasy.

Quote from: san dee jota;971688Nyah.  I'm thinking his tribe couldn't care less.  Of course -he- knows that all true barbarians must deny the sexy, sexy temptation.  Preferably by testing his resolve constantly.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842Mmmmm. no. I completely disagree here. Everyone here is always talking about mutually consenting adults, and further state that when they begin to run a game, as a GM, that they clearly state for all the players that sit in, that the game is for a mature audience only, and may depict some unsavory, or morally disagreeable acts.

The reality is, is that people are constantly coming and going from any rpg game, especially a game that is hosted publicly, and not everyone will get exposed to the warning and disclaimer, especially if its a really popular game.

Now when a game is deliberately depicted morally reprehensible behavior, it is clearly sending a message that such behavior should be considered ok, and that it is ok that such behavior exists, otherwise, we wouldn't have to include it the game, right????

I just think it is very irresponsible for a GM to introduce, or re-introduce a traumatizing experience for a person who may be unaware of exactly what is implied with a disclaimer that is being provided during a game, or at the gaming table.

I'm also going to give everyone here a very specific example of an incident that occurred in 1984.

I had a friend named Tom, that's not his real name of course, but I'm going to use that here while I'm sharing this story, to protect his identity. Now Tom was a player par excellance, and his game (in addition to roleplaying) was seduction. One day, a young lady walked into his game and he promptly seduced her. Nothing wrong with that. Happens every single day, and they spent some time, both in game, and after happily together.

Turned out, the young lady was already married. Not only was she already married, but she was married to a physically abusive, and domineering husband, and she had desperately wanted out of that relationship... and along comes Tom, the suave charmer, all set to settle in with her, except for... He was only playing a game, seeing just how much the young lady would allow him to transgress and explore into unknown territory. When she got serious, he backed out, but not before moving in with her after she had moved out with her ex. Then, she wanted to stay with him, because he wasn't physically or emotionally abusive, but he didn't really love her, so started putting some distance between them, finally moving out just a couple weeks after he moved in with her.

About a week after that, the cops show up at work. Me and Tom Worked together, that's how we had originally met for gaming, and to go out partying together  and stuff. Tom's paramour, despondent at being abandoned after committing herself to a new relationship, and being rejected by him, and only having a domineering and abusive husband to return to, had decided instead it was better to put a bullet in her head, and committed suicide with a self-inflicted gunshot wound. She had left a note for Tom. So the cops were real interested. Of course this totally fucked up the playboy Tom, he had no idea he could have that much influence, especially because we were all just sitting around playing games.

So, for you real douchebags out there, that are all clever and coy, and like, "Ohh but This isn't real life, we are just playing a game, having some fun..." the problem is, you really don't know who is sitting at the table with you, and whether they are they playing or not, you may think they are, or may absolve yourself of responsibility, ...but you know, my friend Tom, has to wake up every morning now, and look in the mirror, and remember that a beautiful woman killed herself, because he was just playing a game.

He wasn't charged in her death. It was clearly a suicide. But I saw it in his eyes. He knew it was his fault though. It really messed him up.

You know, ...she might have went on, and eventually killed herself anyway, even if she had never met Tom. But then she might have found a real professional, a psychologist, or psychiatrist who could have healed her, and made her better. Or she might have found someone who could have really loved her, and that might have healed her as well, but we'll never know now.

True story.

For all you ignorant cucs out there, that are prancing about all happy in your wrapped up tiny, ignorant world, and spouting joy at transgressing and edgelording, and toeing the line, I have observed people doing exactly that. One ended up dead, and the other psychologically crippled, maybe for always. Good luck with that, and I don't. and won't approve.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970857I've had gaming groups where members started dating, including myself on a couple of occasions. I've had gaming groups threatened by a couple in the group breaking up. I've had groups where people in the group cheated behind the backs of other people in the group causing even more drama.

I suspect all of these same events would have happened if I'd been on a bowling team with those people instead of in a gaming group.

Quote from: Voros;971744In defense of Catholics. Catholics girls love to get down.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971054I thought Rot Grubs represented White European Colonialism.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970975It is just about catharsis. We like danger and drama in our movies and TV because we can get the emotional release they provide at a safe remove. Even the dude that wants to engage in negotiations with the goblins is engaging in a dramatic version of what would be stressful in real life. We like to engage with heightened entertainments as break from our safe and quiet lives.

Quote from: Voros;971744In defense of Catholics. Catholics girls love to get down.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;971632I could be wrong, but it sounds like your definition of rape monster may be a bit more expansive than most folks. If we are eliminating any seductive creatures that takes out a pretty big trope from myth, legend and fantasy.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;971680If only he had put together some sort of list he could share with us, we could know for sure. :rolleyes:

• Kyton: demon rape babies.
• Ogre: rapist hillbilly stereotypes.
• Orc: they run rape camps to produce half-orcs for their smarts.
• Half-orc: orc rape babies.
• Adherer: according to monsters revisited, rape people to reproduce.
• Forlarren: demon rape babies.
• Ogrekin: ogre rape babies.

Quote from: Voros;971744In defense of Catholics. Catholics girls love to get down.

Quote from: san dee jota;971638Not a comment on anyone in this thread (seriously)....

I feel like somewhere there's a barbarian warrior who hates elves because they're too sexy (maybe the males and females both), and create unrealistic expectations of beauty for human women.  And, by extension, he thinks elves are evil because they choose to be sooo sooo sexy.  This barbarian has some issues.

Quote from: RPGPundit;972401Please try to keep closer to the original topic here, or at least not to veer away from RPG subjects.

Quote from: Aglondir;972435Hey Pundit: Ken Hite wrote Gurps Cabal (2001). Have you read it? If so, what's your thoughts on the occult content? Do you think V5 would benefit or suffer from similiar elements (stuff like the decans, Sephiroth, a secret conspiracy with formal ranks, etc.)