More often than not I do have fighter-centric games. PC wizards are rare, and PC groups/parties with NPCs often also have no wizards. I like games where combat is interesting by itself, and my OSR origin is TFT, where wizards were designed to be balanced with fighters, and adventures tended to be designed so that wizards were just one option.

Although I prefer classless games, there are certainly many many types of "fighter". Er, at least if your combat system is detailed enough to make those interestingly different (and for my preference, in ways that make sense, not in arbitrary gamey ways.)

I feel we are losing sight of the OP. And though I find curiosity at its initial approach, I do want this project to continue.

So, not as an OSR-restricted style, I would probably take an AD&D 2e archetype>class>kit, or 5e class>archetype, approach to development.

For example, I could take out spells entirely and just read AD&D 2e Priest Archetype and supplant Cleric and Druid classes with my own classes and then proliferate my own kits:

Priest archetype > Devout Laity class > Church Lady (lord) kit, Deacon kit, Community Elder kit...

What would really help would be an arbitrary selection of setting for us all to show a template of how we would "OSR" it.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;961953(title inspired by 'Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man, Thief')

I was pondering game design today, and it struck me - what about an OSR variant with no player magic? Does it already exist? This is purely theoretical at this point. I don't know that I will write it up as a 'mod' or even that there would be any interest if I did.

So, if you were tasked to create a variant with three fighter types and a thief, what would they (the fighters) be? You don't have to stick with actual published classes - it could be anything. If it were a setting, they could be region-based (like European knight and Asian samurai), but for this discussion I'm thinking of something setting-free.

Off the top of my head (names are placeholders), I'm thinking Knight-Cavalier (heavy melee, riding skills), Brigand-Skirmisher (ranged weapons and light melee skills), and Wildman-Barbarian (axes/misc weapons, and herbal healing skills not as good as clerical magic).

Does Spycraft 2.0 count:)? It's kinda OSR, as it's keeping alive an edition of the game, and yet it's not what many people call OSR because it's the 3+ edition instead of the TSR editions.

Other than that, I'd recommend looking at Backswords and Bucklers, which is OD&D-based, and not even the "smart guy" class has access to much magic;).

Last I ran an OSR game, there was no player magic, other than one magic item per PC. I used Low Fantasy, so we had Fighter, Barbarian, Bard, and Rogue as options.
If I had to write something like it with four classes, I'd make it instead a Heavy Hoplite, an average Mercenary, a Light Skirmisher, and a Scout, but that's (probably) just me:D.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;961953(title inspired by 'Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man, Thief')

I was pondering game design today, and it struck me - what about an OSR variant with no player magic? Does it already exist? This is purely theoretical at this point. I don't know that I will write it up as a 'mod' or even that there would be any interest if I did.

If non-"medieval fantasy" OSR games count, there's Silent Legions, which is essentially D&D + Call of Cthulhu + modern time period. Four PC classes, none of them has magic. Depending on what sort of campaign the DM wants to run, he might or might not allow the learning of magic rituals and disciplines mid-campaign, but it's not a default assumption. Speaking of Sine Nomine games, there's also SWN, which is sci-fi but has psionics (which can be houseruled out), and Other Dust, which is post-apocalytpic (no PC psionics by default).

There's also White Lies, which is James Bond / Mission Impossible + S&W, Operation Whitebox which is AFAIK WWII + SW.

I did this in my historical hack of ACKS for the Hellenistic era, there are basically two classes: variations on the Fighter (Assassin, Diplomat, Fighter, Warlord, Explorer, Aristocrat) and variations on the Thief (Expert, Bard).

What I dig are class-based games where the classes correspond to something more like a real 'job' or role in society, rather than the niche you supposedly fill in a classic dungeon crawl party. There aren't too many D&D variants that do this; 3E had a couple of pretty good books that took this angle - they were pretty good but got lost in the tangle of splat books into which that edition devolved. Dark Albion does this, and it is part of the reason it is a great OSR system. 4E went the opposite direction, and this is one of the reasons I disliked it.

Quote from: Larsdangly;962393What I dig are class-based games where the classes correspond to something more like a real 'job' or role in society, rather than the niche you supposedly fill in a classic dungeon crawl party. There aren't too many D&D variants that do this; 3E had a couple of pretty good books that took this angle - they were pretty good but got lost in the tangle of splat books into which that edition devolved. Dark Albion does this, and it is part of the reason it is a great OSR system. 4E went the opposite direction, and this is one of the reasons I disliked it.

Have you gotten my Majestic Wilderlands? Pretty much what I do with the classes they all correspond to what people are doing in the setting as if it existed.

Clerics
Each of the clerics of ten major deities have separate options reflecting the nature of their religion. Mainly by tweaking the Turn Undead ability (Clerics of Thor have a Turn Monster ability, Clerics of Silvanus can cast arcane spells, etc), granting a daily spell at third level, and tweaking what armor and weapons are permitted.


Fighting Men
Berserker: Monster slaying holy warrior for Thor
Fighter: Making his living with his weapons
Solider: A member of a organized armed force.
Paladin: Champion of Honor and Justice and a holy warrior for Mitra
Myrmidon: Champion Order and Discipline and a holy warrior for Set.

Magic Users
Magic User: Independent practitioner of arcane magic.
Mage: Member of the Order of Thoth, the most advanced and powerful of the magical orders.
Wizard: Elvish magic that is more flexible but individual wizard has less scope than a Mage or Magic User
Artificer: Can only cast spells via 10 minute rituals, proficient at crafting scrolls, potions, and magic items for battle magic.
Rune-caster: Can only cast spells via 10 minute ritual, can use carve runes that can be used like scrolls.
Theurgist: Member of the Order of Set. One of the three pillars of a Set dominated empire along with the Emperor and the Church of Set. Can cast spell only by ritual, however can combine to cast spells at a higher power level. (think Fireball).

Rogues
Classes that are skilled at various abilities instead of combat or magic.
Burglar: Skilled in Legerdemain, Stealth and Climbing for thieving.
Claw of Kalis: Cult Fanatics of the blood goddess Kalis feared as assassins.
Merchant Adventurer: Venture into unknown region in search of profit.
Montebank: A street magic-user surviving by their wits and cunning.
Thug: The muscle of a criminal organization, known for their raw strength more than their fighting prowess.

Each of these classes reflect an aspect of my setting, the Majestic Wilderlands.

Quote from: Larsdangly;962393What I dig are class-based games where the classes correspond to something more like a real 'job' or role in society, rather than the niche you supposedly fill in a classic dungeon crawl party. There aren't too many D&D variants that do this; 3E had a couple of pretty good books that took this angle - they were pretty good but got lost in the tangle of splat books into which that edition devolved. Dark Albion does this, and it is part of the reason it is a great OSR system. 4E went the opposite direction, and this is one of the reasons I disliked it.

Yes, this summarizes my fascination and interest in this project. I'd like to see more exploration in approaching D&D mechanics from an informing setting perspective, and the D&D mechanics adaptation thereof. There's lots of published examples gathered here in this topic already.

What I am curious about is the discussion on execution manner, the narrowness or breadth of the concentric categorical rings -- and how broad or exeptional the class/sub-class benefits are expressed.

Quote from: Opaopajr;962405What I am curious about is the discussion on execution manner, the narrowness or breadth of the concentric categorical rings -- and how broad or exeptional the class/sub-class benefits are expressed.

The basic idea in my view is simple, imagine yourself actually standing there in the setting, what do you see? Now translate that into game terms with the minimal amount of mechanic possible. If you want to do something that is D&D compatible, then translate using the mechanics of D&D like hit points, d20 rolls, saving throws, armor class, etc.

Now I threw out that paragraph like it was the answer. While I feel that true, trying to do the above can be involved. Which is why the best method I found is to start with a basic framework and start running campaigns. Be up front with the players that the actual rules are going to be tweaked but also tell them it about how well they work with the setting not the other way around. So if they know X is true about the setting it will remain true throughout the campaign although the mechanics by be altered to better reflect the idea.

It time consuming but I feel the resulting quality is a lot better.

Thanks, estar! That's right, that sort of perspective (stance, if you will ) is what would be needed to follow through. The fun part is watching how that interprets results from person to person, sort of like an artist's individual voice coming through the technique.

Quote from: Opaopajr;962289I feel we are losing sight of the OP. And though I find curiosity at its initial approach, I do want this project to continue.

Well, not really a project yet. Like I said in the first post, this is purely theoretical right now. Don't want to get your hopes up.  

One of the strengths of the originally published D&D editions, perhaps up to the early run of 3E, is that they were very forgiving of different conceptions about setting and character roles in the campaign. Many people disagree with me on this point, and it is common to say that D&D has an implicit setting where Ogre Magi run coffee shops and all that sort of thing. This is bullshit - the game permits this, and a lot of early published setting materials go in this direction, but the game is actually very flexible and can be molded into many different sorts of settings. For example, it is perfectly possible to run a 1E campaign that is, for all practical purposes, Ars Magica. The earliest versions of the core character classes were quite generic in this sense. But as the game aged and evolved character class became a narrower and narrower concept, so that you always felt the need for more of them rather than stretching each one to cover more. But as the meaning of each class narrows, it gets harder and harder to run a game that differs from the author's concept of the setting.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;961953(title inspired by 'Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man, Thief')

I was pondering game design today, and it struck me - what about an OSR variant with no player magic? Does it already exist? This is purely theoretical at this point. I don't know that I will write it up as a 'mod' or even that there would be any interest if I did.

So, if you were tasked to create a variant with three fighter types and a thief, what would they (the fighters) be? You don't have to stick with actual published classes - it could be anything. If it were a setting, they could be region-based (like European knight and Asian samurai), but for this discussion I'm thinking of something setting-free.

Off the top of my head (names are placeholders), I'm thinking Knight-Cavalier (heavy melee, riding skills), Brigand-Skirmisher (ranged weapons and light melee skills), and Wildman-Barbarian (axes/misc weapons, and herbal healing skills not as good as clerical magic).

Low Fantasy Gaming rpg (free PDF or print on demand) can be played with no player magic users (LFG has only one magic user class, other classes are: barbarian, fighter, rogue, bard - and monk & ranger from the site more recently (will appear in the setting book)).

The first problem is 'healing'.  Most older editions, (and if I'm wrong, I am completely willing to be corrected on this, I'm basing this on my memory of Rules Cyclopedia and AD&D) had you out for days, even weeks if you took significant 'damage'.*  Which can slow the pace of the game.  And it also brings up some other logic issues.

Let's assume, that the PC's were in the Caves of Chaos, and they rustle the jimmies of several tribes of humanoids, including the Ogre(s), but in the process take a lot of damage requiring a retreat.  Let's also assume, that being old school players, they kept amazingly accurate maps and manage to get back to Hommlet to heal up.  My issue, as someone who deals in consequences, is what's to stop all the tribes from spilling out and taking revenge on the Village?

The various groups inside the dungeon outnumber and out-power most of the inhabitants, also the PC's can't help much because they're resting up to recover the lost 'resource' known as Hit Points.  Now some games (like someone mentioned, Mongoose's Conan) give you options as to increase the amount of a healing gained outside of combat, 4e and 5e, for examples gives examples as to what you can do with that.  Is it a good answer to this conundrum?  Not for me to decide.


Which, conveniently brings up the second issue: Damage output.  Remember there's a lot more of 'them' than of players, and attrition will win in D&D sooner or later.  There's only so many small groups (even if they're smaller than the players) a group of adventurers and retainers can go up against before they have to turn back.

One way I can think of to mitigate this issue is to adapt some rules from Black Streams: Solo Heroes, by Sine Nomine, with it's Fray dice and their turning monsters HP into HD and alter the base damage system.  But some people have issues with 'minion' rules.  Still it's an answer.  Again, the OP will have to decide if it's a satisfactory one.










*Using quotes because HP is not supposed to represent health, but a mixture of things, and yet (ignoring spell names) it took you a long time to recover, as if you were actually injured.  It's a tad confusing as to what the designers were going for.  And no, I'm not snarking, I'm genuinely confused.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;962483The first problem is 'healing'.  Most older editions, (and if I'm wrong, I am completely willing to be corrected on this, I'm basing this on my memory of Rules Cyclopedia and AD&D) had you out for days, even weeks if you took significant 'damage'.*  Which can slow the pace of the game.  And it also brings up some other logic issues.

Let's assume, that the PC's were in the Caves of Chaos, and they rustle the jimmies of several tribes of humanoids, including the Ogre(s), but in the process take a lot of damage requiring a retreat.  Let's also assume, that being old school players, they kept amazingly accurate maps and manage to get back to Hommlet to heal up.  My issue, as someone who deals in consequences, is what's to stop all the tribes from spilling out and taking revenge on the Village?

The various groups inside the dungeon outnumber and out-power most of the inhabitants, also the PC's can't help much because they're resting up to recover the lost 'resource' known as Hit Points.  Now some games (like someone mentioned, Mongoose's Conan) give you options as to increase the amount of a healing gained outside of combat, 4e and 5e, for examples gives examples as to what you can do with that.  Is it a good answer to this conundrum?  Not for me to decide.


Which, conveniently brings up the second issue: Damage output.  Remember there's a lot more of 'them' than of players, and attrition will win in D&D sooner or later.  There's only so many small groups (even if they're smaller than the players) a group of adventurers and retainers can go up against before they have to turn back.

One way I can think of to mitigate this issue is to adapt some rules from Black Streams: Solo Heroes, by Sine Nomine, with it's Fray dice and their turning monsters HP into HD and alter the base damage system.  But some people have issues with 'minion' rules.  Still it's an answer.  Again, the OP will have to decide if it's a satisfactory one.

*Using quotes because HP is not supposed to represent health, but a mixture of things, and yet (ignoring spell names) it took you a long time to recover, as if you were actually injured.  It's a tad confusing as to what the designers were going for.  And no, I'm not snarking, I'm genuinely confused.

Well, the reason the monsters from the Caves of Chaos don't sack Hommlet is because Hommlet is a different module.  The humanoids from the Caves of Chaos, would have to assault The Keep on the Borderlands which is a castle at the top of a crag, with a narrow winding road for approach.  Ridiculously defendable.

The reason the monsters don't flood out from the Temple of Elemental Evil and assault Hommlet is because they are trying to keep their presence and numbers secret while they work to free the demon lords locked within.