(title inspired by 'Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man, Thief')

I was pondering game design today, and it struck me - what about an OSR variant with no player magic? Does it already exist? This is purely theoretical at this point. I don't know that I will write it up as a 'mod' or even that there would be any interest if I did.

So, if you were tasked to create a variant with three fighter types and a thief, what would they (the fighters) be? You don't have to stick with actual published classes - it could be anything. If it were a setting, they could be region-based (like European knight and Asian samurai), but for this discussion I'm thinking of something setting-free.

Off the top of my head (names are placeholders), I'm thinking Knight-Cavalier (heavy melee, riding skills), Brigand-Skirmisher (ranged weapons and light melee skills), and Wildman-Barbarian (axes/misc weapons, and herbal healing skills not as good as clerical magic).

I think that would be awesome. I have had many games wherein none of the PCs were spell-casters (although there were some evil wizards out there). I could see playing in a world with no magic at all. But I also play a lot of sci fi (Classic Traveller, sometimes the old FASA Star Trek game) and historical settings (cowboys, pirates, swashbucklers), so probably at least 80% of the time I'm in a genre without magic anyway.

However, I personally would go without classes if I were making a game of this sort. I don't really like classes. But if we have to have classes, I'd at least have some sort of advancement method where my fighter and your fighter can choose from some options as they advance so that our abilities and areas of emphasis diverge as we progress. Like, maybe your fighter takes more attacks per round while my fighter decides he wants better accuracy. I don't really see the need for multiple classes that do the same thing with minor differences. But then again, like I said, I'm not class-oriented. I kind of like how The Fantasy Trip does it.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;961953(title inspired by 'Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man, Thief')

I was pondering game design today, and it struck me - what about an OSR variant with no player magic? Does it already exist? This is purely theoretical at this point. I don't know that I will write it up as a 'mod' or even that there would be any interest if I did.

So, if you were tasked to create a variant with three fighter types and a thief, what would they (the fighters) be? You don't have to stick with actual published classes - it could be anything. If it were a setting, they could be region-based (like European knight and Asian samurai), but for this discussion I'm thinking of something setting-free.

Off the top of my head (names are placeholders), I'm thinking Knight-Cavalier (heavy melee, riding skills), Brigand-Skirmisher (ranged weapons and light melee skills), and Wildman-Barbarian (axes/misc weapons, and herbal healing skills not as good as clerical magic).

While 5e, Adventures in Middle Earth is a good reference for this kind of project. I refereed it a couple of time and it while it is 5th edition the mix of classes give it a very different feel. I was thinking of ways of how to accomplished something similar with a OD&D base instead of 5e.

For AiME they have Scholar, Slayer, Treasure Hunter, Wanderer, Warden, and Warrior.

For OD&D I would translate it as
Slayer is Berserker
Wanderer is a Woodsman Warrior
Warden is a Paladin but could be loyal to a culture as well. (That how they work in AiME)
Warrior is a all-round fighter typical of the nobility and other who make their living from fighting.

There are mechanical difference in AiME but it more about the difference in the roleplaying then specific abilities.

The same with the magic it there, it has an effect but it is subtle and half of it is about the roleplaying.

So I can see your project being very feasible. Also being it own thing because AiME doesn't support people being like Conan, or Fafhd and the Grey Mouser.

This fascinates me because your project seems to come from the perspective of class features (widgets & tactics) instead of societal place. Which when thinking back onto older books, like AD&D 2e Complete Handbook Fighter, were mostly minor kit benefits followed with roleplay guidance to match societal expectations. Basically a fascinating inversion of social station, the idea of roleplaying station, and now coming full circle as self-referential bundles of mechanics looking for societal niches to occupy.

Just an observation. I don't want to stop your project fun here. It could be useful in the future. I am just used to most professional trained fighters of history being competent in a wide variety of weapons, and being professionally proficient (if not specialized) in a handful of contextually advantageous weapons.

I mean, if you followed past works it would be more of researching (creating) a period, categorizing social stations, and then focusing on their social role. The broad archetypal class categorizations would be a secondary function to compartmentalize that society's main players. I get an impression that the narrower we cast our nets, the deeper we want our ball pool of widgets -- a fascinating observation of the system influencing the human, a la language or politics.

The historical series for 2e really toned down the magic classes and introduced several kits for different types of fighters and such. A Mighty Fortress had Gentleman Adventurer (Musketeer), Sea Dog, Forester, and Clansman

And for that matter, Buck Rogers was basically 2e in same and no had magic.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;961953So, if you were tasked to create a variant with three fighter types and a thief, what would they (the fighters) be? You don't have to stick with actual published classes - it could be anything. If it were a setting, they could be region-based (like European knight and Asian samurai), but for this discussion I'm thinking of something setting-free.

Warrior -- a "civilized" fighter - trained to work with and lead others (including hirelings/henchmen/mercs)
Barbarian -- a fighter without the leadership/work together training, but with "noble savage" features.
Scout -- a skirmisher with training in wilderness survival and wilderness stealth.

Actually, these are three of the four martial classes from a new OSR game I'm working on. The fourth martial class is a "Crusader", a fighter associated with a particular religion with combat abilities and some chance of calling on miracles from the deity/deities of the religion.

Quote from: JeremyR;961994The historical series for 2e really toned down the magic classes and introduced several kits for different types of fighters and such. A Mighty Fortress had Gentleman Adventurer (Musketeer), Sea Dog, Forester, and Clansman

And for that matter, Buck Rogers was basically 2e in same and no had magic.

And I want that tradition to continue! Hopefully we can get some creative juices flowing on that setting-first vein and less on any niche-protection vein. I wish success on this project!

AD&D Conan had no clerics and magic users were so rare that the DM was advised to just use them as NPCs.

There was also a series of setting books for 2e based on various real world eras and empires.

Probably also some Dungeon modules based on a no-magic setting.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;961953I was pondering game design today, and it struck me - what about an OSR variant with no player magic? Does it already exist?

A magic-free OSR variant does exist, though it doesn't have three fighter classes + thief.

Bloody Basic - Sinew & Steel Edition is a one of the stripped-down ("Basic") genre variants of Blood & Treasure (the better 5e, IMHO).
Sinew & Steel is the medieval variant. (Apart from a classic Basic version there is also a fairy tale variant, a weird fantasy variant, and a "contemporary" - i.e., closer to 3.5 and 4e classes/races - variant.)

Sinew & Steel's classes (and subclasses) are:

• Armsman

- Berserker
- Cavalier
- Cleric*

• Scholar

- Lawyer
- Leech*
- Theologian*

• Villein

- Assassin
- Charlatan
- Hedge Wizard*
- Minstrel
- Venturer
[/LIST]
* There are no spells in this variant but three spell-like abilities have become special abilities of certain subclasses: Cleric (fighting priest) and Theologian have a bless special ability that might be "a figment of a person's imagination", a Leech can treat wounds (basically a non-magical cure light wounds), and a Hedge Wizard can curse a person. Bless and curse confer a bonus/penalty to d20 rolls.

All that in a 28 page book.

Might not hit your OSR requirement, but the Mongoose Conan game played out pretty much like this, with the warrior classes of Barbarian, Borderer (similar to a ranger without any magic), nomad (archery focussed), pirate and soldier. Thief, noble and scholar (potentially without any magic) round out the classes.

It's my favourite iteration of 3.x by a big margin, with the best rules for multi-classing, some Conan-inspired combat maneuvers, corrupting magic, better handling of armour and defence and some instant death rules that make combat more dangerous.

Quote from: Omega;962030AD&D Conan had no clerics and magic users were so rare that the DM was advised to just use them as NPCs.

There was also a series of setting books for 2e based on various real world eras and empires.

Probably also some Dungeon modules based on a no-magic setting.

When did they do AD&D Conan? I only remember the FASERIP-style standalone Conan game. In fact, it's still on my shelf waiting for someone to play it.

84 was the first one. By Cook. Part introduction and part module. So could be pre-2e? There are two for Conan and one for Red Sonja that Im aware of.

Quote from: Omega;96219584 was the first one. By Cook. Part introduction and part module. So could be pre-2e? There are two for Conan and one for Red Sonja that Im aware of.

So these are just modules rather than actual games then?

Quote from: Dumarest;962211So these are just modules rather than actual games then?

More info about the Conan modules:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_Unchained!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_Against_Darkness!
https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/modpages/cb.html
https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/modpages/rs.html
https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?cache=1&f=1&t=16054&c=1

Quote from: Dumarest;962211So these are just modules rather than actual games then?

Each one is effectively a mini setting book. The three I have all open with 3 or more pages of background. They arent sourcebooks or conversion books. Its effectively "Prune this stuff and go" Playing one of 4 pregens with some quick advice for non-pre-gens.

Has a neat little Fear mechanic wherein on first meeting a monster or seeing someone cast a spell the character makes a Fear check. Which is the monster or effects fear score x the PCs WIS stat. Roll under that on percentile dice. Example: A Shadow has a FS of 5, Conan has a WIS of 10. So 50% chance to not freak out. Valeria has a WIS of 17 so she has a 85% chance to not freak out.

And Luck points you can spend to do various things. Such as try to kill an opponent in one blow by spending luck equal to half the targets HP. Still have to actually hit. Luck has to be used before you roll for something.