You claimed that you were somehow not welcome as a white male even though none of these cons made a statement excluding white males or even addressing white males. Somehow a statement of everyone being welcome is read as excluding you. How is that not overly defensive, even paranoid?

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;943775I have no qualms with that being stated up front.  What I don't follow is why that has to be the focus?

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

And my reaction was based on trechriron's assessment of "one of those guys", that I quoted in my previous reply.  I've been to cons and never felt unwelcome.  I'm done replying to your attacks on me

Your nitpicking about the 'the focus' is a red herring that's why I ignored it.

Questioning your BS= 'attacks on me'

#Iamthevictim

Quote from: Voros;944231Your nitpicking about the 'the focus' is a red herring that's why I ignored it.

Questioning your BS= 'attacks on me'

#Iamthevictim

BS. You're just fanning non existant internet arguments and making assumptionss about my intent in spite of what I've actually written; tossing out strawmen to pick fights.  Focus of a gamecon is games.

#dontfeedthetroll

Suicide in the wimp hobby.

This is A grade retarded shit. Amazing how quickly gamers are excited to eat their own.

Of course, there is nothing inclusive in the Cult of Victimhood.

But hey, I guess all those women and non-white gamers in the hobby in the past 40 years must have all been imaginary...or victims.

Ugh. I am truly astounded by the White Knighting bullshit.

WTF do grown adults need an inclusivity diaper to attend events?

For decades, I've seen many thousands of non-white men and women attend concerts, movies, and sports events at venues without any diaper posting.

How did these poor helpless men and women fucking survive the experience???

Any org with Codes of Conduct or their memetic kin aren't worthy of your time or your money.

The argument always goes like this. It's getting old. And boring.

In my opinion, non-white males, LBGTQ, and female players are under-represented in our hobby. Even here in sunny leftsville Seattle, the majority of the players that show up to play in my games are white males. I honestly don't care anymore about the why's and wherefore's. I'm not BLAMING anyone. I certainly am not telling you what to do. I'm not saying your'e a horrible person, nor did I accuse anyone of being a rapist. I don't believe in this false dichotomy. In my heart reaching out to new demographics of players is the right thing to do AND I enjoy playing with a diverse crowd. We know that potential players from these demographics are intimidated or worried about participation because THEY TOLD US. You may want to dismiss these pleas, but I'm not going to.

I believe stating up front that your con is inclusive works. I witnessed a greater variety of players at OrcaCon and I believe this added to the energy of the con. Stating your con is inclusive is NOT an indictment of other cons that don't. Back in the day we called this "grasping at straws". For example, stating that I like Agricola does not mean that Carcassone is a bad game.

You want to be offended by something? You really want to be pissed? Here let me help. I like helping.

You're tired old boring white-male focused games are not just an offence to society but also an offense to masculinity. Oh, and they're stupid. Your micro-penises are ruining our hobby. You should huddle under your covers like the sex-addled pubescent turd-boys you are.

There. Now you can freak out, rage against the leftist machine, and cry havoc into the sky. You're welcome.  (If you read that sarcastic nonsense above and were personally insulted, I'm guessing something about my comedy name-calling struck home... this is where I might suggest seeking a hug from someone who loves you.)

Now, I asked twice about what cons you like and why, and instead we get angry posters pissing the screen. Cool. But wouldn't just telling us about your con be more convincing? And maybe even fun?

Quote from: trechriron;944284Even here in sunny leftsville Seattle, the majority of the players that show up to play in my games are white males.

Why is that surprising and/or troubling?  Seattle is more than 2/3 white, and males generally like the type of gameplay that TTRPGs/board games represent more than females do.  I believe that males are approx. 80-90% of TTRPG players.  So even going with the lowest values of both, 2/3 and 80%, that would mean that you should expect at least 53.3% of of TTRPG players to be white males.  Anything else would be a disproportionately low # of white males.

Having the majority of players who show up being white males doesn't mean that everyone else is too scared to show up to cons.  It's representative of the gaming populace in Seattle.

Quote from: trechriron;944284The argument always goes like this. It's getting old. And boring.

What's boring is a normally fearless and straitforward poster dodging direct questions when political beliefs are challenged.  Ignore the raving and focus on stating your case.  You're the one that made it.

Quote from: trechriron;944284In my opinion, non-white males, LBGTQ, and female players are under-represented in our hobby.

So, you think that the hobby must take an official Outreach Position? More importantly, do you think that people who will only join the hobby if specifically pulled with with an Outreach Position will be better for the hobby overall?

Quote from: trechriron;944284I believe stating up front that your con is inclusive works. I witnessed a greater variety of players at OrcaCon and I believe this added to the energy of the con.

Ok, forget about the "energy" of the con, that's not very measurable.  Let's get into some specifics including some questions you ignored in my last post...  

• Have you been to a con where tacit acceptance, and the understood "don't be a dick" didn't work and you personally saw toxic, unaccepting behavior?
• What games did you play at the last Con?
• Did you have a larger percentage of Non-White, Non-Male players at the events you attended?
• How did you know whether players were LBGTQ or not?  Did anyone purposely self-identify themselves at the table?
• How different were the games?  Are you claiming that somehow the events themselves were run differently?
• Your first-hand account leads you to believe that people are showing up under the banner of "Inclusive" that otherwise don't show up to cons that aren't labeled "Inclusive"?  Is that correct?
• Do you think things would really be any different if you just hung Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." over the front door?
• Gaming in general is heating up thanks to Twitch/Critical Role, etc.  Have you witnessed a con of similar size recently without a stated inclusive focus, that didn't have the "energy" you are reporting?  In other words, can Cons be getting hotter because Gaming is getting cooler?
• Did you actually speak with anyone at Orcacon about the "Inclusive" Focus and did anyone tell you that is why they came?  In other words, do you have any specific anecdotes that support your contention?

Quote from: trechriron;944284Stating your con is inclusive is NOT an indictment of other cons that don't.

It's not an indictment against cons that don't, but it is drawing a distinction for ad copy purposes, just like advertising that you have the largest collection of Hex and Chit Wargame events on the West Coast.  The implication is, the other cons, by comparison, do not have such a focus, and by simple logic are not as inclusive.

Quote from: trechriron;944284You want to be offended by something? You really want to be pissed? Here let me help. I like helping.
You're tired old boring white-male focused games are not just an offence to society but also an offense to masculinity. Oh, and they're stupid. Your micro-penises are ruining our hobby. You should huddle under your covers like the sex-addled pubescent turd-boys you are.

Talk about boring.  I could retort with something equally inane, but I'd rather squelch the noise and talk about Practical Concrete Differences.

Quote from: trechriron;944284But wouldn't just telling us about your con be more convincing? And maybe even fun?

You don't want something examined, don't put it forth to be so.  You are the one claiming you saw a practical, positive difference the "Inclusive" tag makes, and you're not the only one, but you didn't think you get asked "What difference?" Really?

Without telling us WHY you think this is working, all the talk of "energy" can easily be dismissed as a SJW/Lefty just feeling better about himself.  Explain your position like you did during the censorship threads.

He did say the con attracted a crowd of people he enjoyed playing with, didn't he? Seems that would be plenty of "energy".

If there is anyone, in the world, ever, that has been looking to be offended, it is white straight dudes who think "being inclusive" is an attack on their white straight dudeness.

The word itself can be cover for all sorts of nonsense and mischief; I don't see that here.

Quote from: Arminius;944303He did say the con attracted a crowd of people he enjoyed playing with, didn't he? Seems that would be plenty of "energy".

Isn't that the point of a Con?  If Cons didn't do that, he wouldn't still be going to them, would he?

OrcaCon's only 2 years old and was funded by Kickstarter.  I wonder if that helped the "energy" at all?

BTW, not directed at Arminius, but this is from the original OrcaCon Kickstarter...

Quote from: OrcaCon KickstarterWe feel it's so important to create an environment that's different from other game conventions we've attended in the past, so with OrcaCon we're focusing on welcoming people of all ages and game experience levels.

I'm sure that Spinachcat wishes the hundred cons he runs stuff at did that, so he could welcome new gamers for the first time in his 20-year RPG convention career.

You can look at the actual policies here:
Accessibility Policy
Anti-Harassment Policy
A quote:

Quote from: OrcaCon WebsiteWhy does OrcaCon need an anti-harassment policy?

We’ve implemented an anti-harassment policy in response to widespread reports of harassment in geek communities and at conventions. Read more about why action on harassment at geek conventions is necessary by visiting the Ada Initiative website.

They're totally not saying that people who will be safe at OrcaCon won't be safe at other cons though...Dreamcon must have been a real atrocity back in the day.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294What's boring is a normally fearless and straitforward poster dodging direct questions when political beliefs are challenged.  Ignore the raving and focus on stating your case.  You're the one that made it.

OK. I'll give it my college best.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294So, you think that the hobby must take an official Outreach Position? More importantly, do you think that people who will only join the hobby if specifically pulled with with an Outreach Position will be better for the hobby overall?

Yes and yes. I believe that there are more non-white males and females in general out there that would like to participate in the hobby. I'm not saying there are not already non-white males and females in general participating. I'm saying we could and should have more! Not because we need to fill a quota, but because people are saying they would participate more if our hobby looked less like the Skull & Bones society and perhaps a little more like open gym at the Boys & Girls club. As a white male, I think it's important to listen to people who are not like me. OrcaCon's focus on inclusivity came about because of people's complaints, experiences and suggestions. I'm not advocating "outreach" more like a simple attitude change with a direct statement of intent. In my experience over the last two years, that simple approach ATTRACTED more non-white male participants.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294Ok, forget about the "energy" of the con, that's not very measurable.  Let's get into some specifics including some questions you ignored in my last post...  

• Have you been to a con where tacit acceptance, and the understood "don't be a dick" didn't work and you personally saw toxic, unaccepting behavior?
• What games did you play at the last Con?
• Did you have a larger percentage of Non-White, Non-Male players at the events you attended?
• How did you know whether players were LBGTQ or not?  Did anyone purposely self-identify themselves at the table?
• How different were the games?  Are you claiming that somehow the events themselves were run differently?
• Your first-hand account leads you to believe that people are showing up under the banner of "Inclusive" that otherwise don't show up to cons that aren't labeled "Inclusive"?  Is that correct?
• Do you think things would really be any different if you just hung Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." over the front door?
• Gaming in general is heating up thanks to Twitch/Critical Role, etc.  Have you witnessed a con of similar size recently without a stated inclusive focus, that didn't have the "energy" you are reporting?  In other words, can Cons be getting hotter because Gaming is getting cooler?
• Did you actually speak with anyone at Orcacon about the "Inclusive" Focus and did anyone tell you that is why they came?  In other words, do you have any specific anecdotes that support your contention?

1) Absolutely. In fact, 15 years ago I was guilty of the same unacceptable behavior. The simple disparaging or assumed male superiority comments that I grew up hearing in the garage, the locker room or in camping expeditions (like with cub scouts or Civil Air Patrol). I have engaged in and witnessed plenty of bad behavior. Was it malicious? No. It was "in good jest". But later in life I have learned, from women, exactly how these behaviors can make them feel.
2) The first OrcaCon I ran all the Star Wars beginner games. At this con I ran Castles & Crusades.
3) Yes. I had several women and non-white males. More so than I have experienced at say Metro Seattle Gamers (grognard white boy's club) or Norwescon. Dragonflight is organized by a team including several women, but there are still no non-whites participating outside the lawyer, who is of Arabic decent IIRC. Verne & Wells was filled with white males the day I visited for a walk-through. The best diversity I've seen so far outside OrcaCon was at several gaming venues in the Seattle-Bellevue area like Ray Guns and Cafe Mox.
4) Many people bought buttons that identified their sexual preference or sympathies (mine was Hetero Ally). Also, there are gender pronoun preference ribbons. No one had to "self-identify" but based on buttons/ribbons, there were many more LBGTQ people at the con than I have seen at other cons I have attended over the years.
5) The events are not run differently. They did have a fantastic "looking for players" stand thing someone hand-crafted that helped games find more players or pick-up games to recruit players. There were also facilitators who wandered about helping people find games to get into. Certainly a different focus on putting games together than I normally see, which is usually "post it, hope for sign-ups, or wander about like a town crier....".
6) Yes. That is not just my impression, but my observation.
7) Yes. It's too late to communicate or market at that point. The idea is to get the word out that this con is focused on inclusive gaming. It's just like the principles or mission statement a company formulates and then shares with employees during orientation. It's a focus. It's saying "please mind what we believe in and what we're trying to accomplish here." It's not just "don't be a dick", it's also "think of the variety of people out there and make/run/play games with the idea of not pushing people not-like you away from the table with your behavior or content."
How could I not agree with this question - of course! It does not invalidate the mission of an inclusive gaming con. I can say even with Norwescon's very open-minded band of communities, the energy in their gaming hall is nothing like OrcaCon's. I'm sure this has multiple factors (OrcaCon is gaming focused, NWC is not for example). But the people wandering about at OrcaCon were more engaged, happier, less haughty and more smiles than NWC (as an example). When people are comfortable and can be themselves without fear of backlash, I believe it makes them happier. I believe I witnessed this very thing at OrcaCon.
9) That particular litmus test has nothing to do with supporting my contention. You don't get to define the boundaries of my experiences or opinions. I don't have EVIDENCE as suggested nor do I care to hire a film crew, brew up a documentary and then present it to you. I believe the focus on inclusivity made this con better and would make other cons better. I believe it directly contributed to the energy I felt why I was there.

I have been gaming for 35 years now. I have attended several conventions from my first Dragonflight when I was 16 or 17 and could drive myself to Seattle, to some small convention in Portland, to a Dragonflight later and several NeonCons in Las Vegas, to more Game Days than I could count. This is not new to me. I am making a comparison of my experiences. I believe it's high time the white boy's club diversified. I'm not going to be easily dissuaded from that belief. I also find it absurd you want something measurable. It's my belief and account, not a fucking treatise on inclusive gaming. And in all fairness, why not start with your own "evidence" or documentary? Can we even collect our feelings, experiences and beliefs into a documentary?

I love the idea of posting a "don't be a dick" sign in the registration area. It's a fantastic idea. I would still do everything the same regarding inclusivity. See? It's not the dichotomy you see it as. I just want to play with more people that don't look like me, or share my religion, or share my political beliefs. I want diversity and I believe that stating that upfront is a useful way of accomplishing that. You know, like how people communicate across their other various relationships?

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294It's not an indictment against cons that don't, but it is drawing a distinction for ad copy purposes, just like advertising that you have the largest collection of Hex and Chit Wargame events on the West Coast.  The implication is, the other cons, by comparison, do not have such a focus, and by simple logic are not as inclusive.  ...

This is the most biased question yet and seriously attempts to railroad the conversation along your ideas of "how the universe works", but for the sake of completeness; a mission statement is NOT for ad copy purposes. This is not some propaganda I'm injecting into a meme to brainwash you into believing exactly what I tell you to. It is simply a principle. A mission statement. A desire to communicate to the hobby, to reach out to those who might otherwise not want to participate that there is a con focused on making their experience as fun as any other white-male might expect to have. It's a positive action FOR something in the hopes of increasing diversity and changing the stereo-type (based on past behaviors) of the gaming hobby/community. Your example of "baseless ad copy exclamation" IS declaring (or attempting to establish) a fact. This is not that kind of claim. No one claimed that OrcaCon was "the only inclusive con". It's a focus. It's a mission. No humans anywhere are going to execute 100% on a mission statement. But we can try, yes? If instead the con above advertised "we are focused on hosting the largest collection of Hex and Chit Wargame events on the West Coast - come help us be the Hex and Chit destination con!" you would be getting MUCH closer to what the inclusivity mission of OrcaCon is.

I don't give seven bull testicles about the politics. What I can say for sure is I will be attending OrcaCon in 2018 and I expect to have the same level of high-energy fun.

I hope that clears some things up.

Quote from: trechriron;944396I'm saying we could and should have more! Not because we need to fill a quota, but because people are saying they would participate more if our hobby looked less like the Skull & Bones society and perhaps a little more like open gym at the Boys & Girls club.

Maybe hold a convention in Brighton then?

Quote from: trechriron;944396As a white male, I think it's important to listen to people who are not like me.

As a human being, I think it's important to listen to anyone based on their ideas, not their Victimhood Score.

Quote from: trechriron;944396In my experience over the last two years, that simple approach ATTRACTED more non-white male participants.

I can see it, Seattle's one of the whitest major cities in America, I think only Portland is whiter.

Quote from: trechriron;944396there were many more LBGTQ people at the con than I have seen at other cons I have attended over the years.

Interesting.  I guess my point was, without ribbons, buttons and bows, you can't actually say that, can you?  You can certainly say more people are self-identifying with ribbons, buttons, and bows.  

Quote from: trechriron;944396When people are comfortable and can be themselves without fear of backlash, I believe it makes them happier. I believe I witnessed this very thing at OrcaCon.

Fair enough.

Quote from: trechriron;944396That particular litmus test has nothing to do with supporting my contention. You don't get to define the boundaries of my experiences or opinions.

No, but I do get to comment on them.  You're a 40-something White Hetero Fatbeard.  Part of "listening to people who aren't you" is also "not putting words in their mouth for them".  Obviously you thought it made a difference, but to be brutally honest and fair, of course you would.  Anyone who sees themselves on the top of the pyramid, and specifically does something to help those lower on the pyramid always thinks it makes a difference.  However, if you had heard at least one LGBTQ person address your "Hetero Ally" button, or talk about how great it was that OrcaCon let them be themselves at a gaming convention, or isn't Crackerville like they thought it would be, then that would be at least anecdotal proof as opposed to your being all fuzzy and glowy in your self-righteousness and projecting that onto everyone you saw.

Quote from: trechriron;944396And in all fairness, why not start with your own "evidence" or documentary?

Because I didn't make any claims about Conventions who focus on inclusiveness or not.  You said you thought it made for a better con.  I asked how and why.

Quote from: trechriron;944396I love the idea of posting a "don't be a dick" sign in the registration area. It's a fantastic idea. I would still do everything the same regarding inclusivity. See? It's not the dichotomy you see it as. I just want to play with more people that don't look like me, or share my religion, or share my political beliefs.

Fair enough.  I grew up going to conventions in Los Angeles.  Even in the 80s, to tell you the god's honest truth, I don't think I've ever sat down at a convention table that was all White Men.  Miniatures, sure, but not RPGs.

Quote from: trechriron;944396This is the most biased question yet and seriously attempts to railroad the conversation along your ideas of "how the universe works", but for the sake of completeness; a mission statement is NOT for ad copy purposes. This is not some propaganda I'm injecting into a meme to brainwash you into believing exactly what I tell you to. It is simply a principle. A mission statement. A desire to communicate to the hobby

They weren't charging admission then?  Ad copy isn't necessary propaganda.  If you're charging admission, you're selling tickets.  If you're selling something, then your promotion is ad copy.  The mission statement is the advertisment, that's what you're hoping people will come and support via participation and dollars.  If you're selling tickets and advertising inclusivity, you're in part selling inclusivity.  That doesn't necessarily mean you don't mean it.

For what's it's worth, I think you're right.  I can totally see people showing up to an inclusive con that they otherwise wouldn't if they couldn't overtly declare their identity, and you, by convention policy, were assumed to be overtly accepting by your presence.

That's my entire problem with it, actually.  The idea that people can't just socially interact without that need for acceptance, without the cover of "official protection".  That's not healthy.  

Add to that transgender people are .3% of the population.  How many were at that convention?  How many of the people wearing those alternative pronoun ribbons were actually genderfluid?  Pretty sure a small percentage, the rest was just self-indulgence or getting attention.  

Just like once people went apeshit bending over backwards for people who suffered from Asperger's, tons of disaffected teens were self-identifying/self-diagnosing as Asperger's.  Once that stopped being the Prime Attention Tag, the self-identification shifted.  Just like those attention-seekers who were fucking things up for people with real Asperger's, the attention-seekers now are fucking things up for people who are actually Transgendered.

Even if people are super happy at that one convention. It's not helping.