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PAX has a new convention called Unplugged  (http://www.purplepawn.com/2017/01/penny-arcade-launches-new-tabletop-game-convention-pax-unplugged/)at Pennsylvania Convention Center in Philadelphia! I find this good news, because...

I found OrcaCon to be a fun place to run and play games (here in Everett, WA), and Dragonflight here in Bellevue, WA. Other cons that have gaming as an add-on have been a serious "miss" for me. My games are empty more often than not. For those, I stick to board/card games. But tabletop focused cons? Those are where the RPGs can shine (IME).

So, what cons do you really like for tabletop (especially RPGs), what cons do you avoid because the gaming is a "miss"?

I will not miss a Dexposure (http://www.dexposure.com) event if I can help it, and the only reason I missed the last one was because of a complete mental breakdown.

But I'm better now :)

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;943598I will not miss a Dexposure (http://www.dexposure.com) event if I can help it, and the only reason I missed the last one was because of a complete mental breakdown.

But I'm better now :)

Good to hear!

Quote from: trechriron;943658Good to hear!

Thanks, but you miiight wanna to wait until you've seen the result :P

One more thing. The Dexposure events (Dexcon, Metatopia, Maelstrom, and Dreamation) are all very social justice focused, but in a way which works in practice. So I'm convinced at this point the internet is actually the problem, I just don't know how.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;943725Thanks, but you miiight wanna to wait until you've seen the result :P

One more thing. The Dexposure events (Dexcon, Metatopia, Maelstrom, and Dreamation) are all very social justice focused, but in a way which works in practice. So I'm convinced at this point the internet is actually the problem, I just don't know how.

How do you focus a gaming convention on Social Justice?
How does that "in practice" work?

The internet is the problem because it allows everyone to engage with everything on earth in less than 10 seconds, which means no thought it actually put into anything.  It's all either...
1. Mindless Tribalism eliminating thought.
2. Mindless Drive-by Entertainment masquerading as Engagement.
3. Purposeful Trolling.

The only serious discussions you can have online are about trivial things, anything worth serious discussion is next to worthless to do via any form of social media.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;943725Thanks, but you miiight wanna to wait until you've seen the result :P

One more thing. The Dexposure events (Dexcon, Metatopia, Maelstrom, and Dreamation) are all very social justice focused, [/I].

Why does a gamecon need to be social justice focused?  Why can't you just post up a big mess o' games and events and say "Hey, everyone's welcome, come play."

I know i live in the sandpeople part of Washington, but I've yet to meet a gamer or group that would exclude anyone because of their religion, color of skin, etc.

We reserve the right to exclude you for being a douche, but that's just good sense.

OrcaCon is focused on inclusivity. It's great to see people just being themselves. Even though people believe it doesn't need to be stated up front, it can help people who are often marginalized or mistreated to know for certain that the people they are hanging out with are a) cognizant of such things and b) are welcome to playing with anyone.

In practice, OrcaCon is a wonderful place to play and run games. The energy is fantastic and people are comfortable. I believe the focus on inclusivity is a big part of that.

Quote from: trechriron;943763OrcaCon is focused on inclusivity. It's great to see people just being themselves. Even though people believe it doesn't need to be stated up front, it can help people who are often marginalized or mistreated to know for certain that the people they are hanging out with are a) cognizant of such things and b) are welcome to playing with anyone.

In practice, OrcaCon is a wonderful place to play and run games. The energy is fantastic and people are comfortable. I believe the focus on inclusivity is a big part of that.

I guess I might not be envisioning how much the average human has devolved to troglodytehood, but what do you think happens in a Gaming Convention that doesn't declare "We're Inclusive?"

• Booth babes have to sit in Gor poses?
• Everyone wears shitkicker boots so they can stomp some LGTBQ?
• Myfarog T-Shirts given away for free?
• Women have to go through a Molest-Line to enter the building?
• Strange Fruit?
• People forcibly verified for Anal Circumference according to FATAL tables which is tattooed on their forearm?
• The movie theater shows Irreversible 24/7?

I mean you're in Washington for fuck's sake.  Non-Inclusive for you is SJW heaven for the rest of the earth. :D

Quote from: trechriron;943763Even though people believe it doesn't need to be stated up front, it can help people who are often marginalized or mistreated to know for certain that the people they are hanging out with are a) cognizant of such things and b) are welcome to playing with anyone.

I have no qualms with that being stated up front.  What I don't follow is why that has to be the focus?

First of all - of course people have to go through a "molest-line" to get in. Who would give up that opportunity?!?! (I kid, I kid)

Why does it have to be focus?

It's a matter of "seeking first to understand, then be understood". You have to put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been excluded, or tormented, or marginalized.

After enough of this treatment, you can become very "gun shy". Instead of taking a chance that the group of strangers you're going to socialize with turn out to be a bunch of wankers, you elect to stay home and play it safe.

You may never have experienced this or perhaps not at the scale some of our LBGTQ or minority fellow gamers have. It's so ingrained, so "default" to our behavior we hardly stop to analyze it.

By focusing on inclusivity we're making a broader social contract with people who might not otherwise feel safe hanging out. It says "don't worry, were not wankers, and we won't pick on you, hurt you, or put you in the corner. We just want to play games with everyone". It also sets a standard. If someone might be inclined to make off-color jokes about gay people or women, instead can help us accomplish this goal by not being a wanker. It invites people in while subtly suggesting to others to be cognizant of your language and behavior.

I don't look at it as some affront to my personal freedoms, but more as the possibility to connect with people who might otherwise have some anxiety in gaming with me (being a white male bearded grognard who is easily categorized as "one of those guys"...)

EDIT to ADD: Also, by focus I don't mean some weird parade of over-reaching back-slapping spotlighting or what-have-you, in practice, we're all just playing games. The "focus" IS really stating it in the description, the goals of the con. Setting up the code of conduct and calling out behaviors that make non-white male participants feel crapped on. Again, it's about YOU focusing on understanding people vs. indulging in typical "boy club" shenanigans that would otherwise put some off.

Fair enough explanation.

It seems as though being a white bearded male has it's own stigma now, too, however.

I think your heart is in the right place, but if someone decides they don't want to play with me because I'm white and male, they have a bias to confront as well.  I don't feel (like anyone else should have too, either) that I should have to apologize for the circumstances of my birth.

Back to the original point of your thread, I think unplugged PAX is a great idea, not much of a video gamer anymore, myself.

Sorry for the derail.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;943798It seems as though being a white bearded male has it's own stigma now, too, however.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]683[/ATTACH]

QuoteI think your heart is in the right place, but if someone decides they don't want to play with me because I'm white and male, they have a bias to confront as well.  I don't feel (like anyone else should have too, either) that I should have to apologize for the circumstances of my birth.

You seem to be projecting a bit much. There are certainly spaces where some lefty LGBTQ activists seem to go out of their way to ensure anyone they spotcheck as straight, etc are not made to feel welcome but I don't think you'd ever have to worry about that happening at an RPG con.

Whoops, just adding to the derail, oh well at least I was able to include a Simpson's reference.

Quote from: trechriron;943797First of all - of course people have to go through a "molest-line" to get in. Who would give up that opportunity?!?! (I kid, I kid)

Why does it have to be focus?

It's a matter of "seeking first to understand, then be understood". You have to put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been excluded, or tormented, or marginalized.

After enough of this treatment, you can become very "gun shy". Instead of taking a chance that the group of strangers you're going to socialize with turn out to be a bunch of wankers, you elect to stay home and play it safe.

You may never have experienced this or perhaps not at the scale some of our LBGTQ or minority fellow gamers have. It's so ingrained, so "default" to our behavior we hardly stop to analyze it.

By focusing on inclusivity we're making a broader social contract with people who might not otherwise feel safe hanging out. It says "don't worry, were not wankers, and we won't pick on you, hurt you, or put you in the corner. We just want to play games with everyone". It also sets a standard. If someone might be inclined to make off-color jokes about gay people or women, instead can help us accomplish this goal by not being a wanker. It invites people in while subtly suggesting to others to be cognizant of your language and behavior.

I don't look at it as some affront to my personal freedoms, but more as the possibility to connect with people who might otherwise have some anxiety in gaming with me (being a white male bearded grognard who is easily categorized as "one of those guys"...)

EDIT to ADD: Also, by focus I don't mean some weird parade of over-reaching back-slapping spotlighting or what-have-you, in practice, we're all just playing games. The "focus" IS really stating it in the description, the goals of the con. Setting up the code of conduct and calling out behaviors that make non-white male participants feel crapped on. Again, it's about YOU focusing on understanding people vs. indulging in typical "boy club" shenanigans that would otherwise put some off.

So what you're saying is Yes, you think gaming conventions where there isn't an INCLUSIVE sign over the front door will feature guys making vagina jokes, using racial epithets, and otherwise verbally raping and lynching the non-Privileged gamers.

Everyone agrees to think three times before any word comes out of their mouth so they don't damage anyone.  That's not a gaming convention, that's a Mass Therapy Session that should be sued for Malpractice.

Sorry man, someone literally can't handle sitting down at a table to game with white males, Republicans, Argentinian Gauchos or whoever the fuck without some implied chaperone via social rules...they need to learn to handle their own shit before they cripple themselves for life.

It's just idiotic Safe Space horseshit.

Quote from: trechriron;943797Why does it have to be focus?

It's a matter of "seeking first to understand, then be understood". You have to put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been excluded, or tormented, or marginalized.

Because, you know, people attracted to role-playing games have no concept of ever being in that kind of situation where they might be excluded, or tormented, or marginalized.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: trechriron;943797I don't look at it as some affront to my personal freedoms, but more as the possibility to connect with people who might otherwise have some anxiety in gaming with me (being a white male bearded grognard who is easily categorized as "one of those guys"...)

I would. If some snowflake can't get over the fact that I am a white bearded grognard who enjoys RPGs because I look like someone that was a bearded white male who was mean to them in the past, then why should I reach to them?

Quote from: trechriron;943797EDIT to ADD: Also, by focus I don't mean some weird parade of over-reaching back-slapping spotlighting or what-have-you, in practice, we're all just playing games. The "focus" IS really stating it in the description, the goals of the con. Setting up the code of conduct and calling out behaviors that make non-white male participants feel crapped on. Again, it's about YOU focusing on understanding people vs. indulging in typical "boy club" shenanigans that would otherwise put some off.

So, this is to make sure that white males are kept in their place for the con. Gotcha. Replace "white" and "male" with any other ethnicity or gender and see how fucking bullshit that is.

When in the world did we gamers become this group of racist, sexist monsters?  At what point did this happen?

Gamers in my experience have been among the most inclusive group of people in the world.  Someone has a game on the table of a local game store, and the first gamers who own do, whenever someone comes close is ask, "Wanna try?"  No judgements, no comments about any other thing but the game.  It's always been like this in my experience, so what changed?  And when did it?  I'd honestly like to know.

It's not about you. It's about people who feel uncomfortable in the "typical" gaming space. Are all white bearded males all wankers? No.It's not about the good experiences (unfortunately) it's about the impact the bad ones have had on an individual.

This is not a dichotomy. It's not a "us" vs. "them" situation. If someone started calling me a fat-beard moron at OrcaCon I would have just as much as a right to complain about the behavior.

I am not saying a convention that does not have inclusivity as a focus is now somehow a cesspool of horrible people doing horrible things. I'm saying that the convention I have attended two years in a row is fun and the focus I believe brings a variety of people that I don't often see in other venues. It's simply one convention in a plethora with a refreshing approach that I appreciate.

Now, what cons do you peeps really like for RPG gaming?  Which ones do you think suck for RPG gaming?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;943825Gamers in my experience have been among the most inclusive group of people in the world.  Someone has a game on the table of a local game store, and the first gamers who own do, whenever someone comes close is ask, "Wanna try?"  No judgements, no comments about any other thing but the game.  It's always been like this in my experience, so what changed?  And when did it?  I'd honestly like to know.

I've never experienced that. When I visit the local established rpg and cardgame/wargaming shops often even the clerks won't say hello or even acknowledge your existence. I can wander all over the shop scanning the shelves and glancing at the people playing at the tables and get nothing but 'who the fuck are you' looks. Sometimes there's even the stereotypical smell of BO. I'm a full fledged nerd so how they must greet others off the street is probably even worse.

That's one of the reasons I prefer going to a small shop that specializes in used fantasy and rpg books with a sprinkling of newer games and some OSR product. The owner actually greets his customers and will gladly answer questions or look something up to order for you (he's got a hardcopy of the LotFP rules on order and is looking for the new hardcover 5th edition of Pendragon for me).

The one con I ever attended was depressing and full of anime cosplay kids. I game with friends and family and people I meet through a local gaming society. If my introduction to the hobby was through the stores I would have never got into tabletop.

Quote from: trechriron;943827It's not about you. It's about people who feel uncomfortable in the "typical" gaming space. Are all white bearded males all wankers? No.It's not about the good experiences (unfortunately) it's about the impact the bad ones have had on an individual.

So, you're saying 'Them' as opposed to 'Us'?  Of course, there'll be bad experiences, no one's perfect, but by dwelling on those, you're creating an atmosphere where those bad times are seemingly common.  They're not.  Otherwise, no one would ever game.  Why bother gaming if you don't have enough fun to forgive the bad days?

Quote from: trechriron;943827This is not a dichotomy. It's not a "us" vs. "them" situation. If someone started calling me a fat-beard moron at OrcaCon I would have just as much as a right to complain about the behavior.

But you JUST created that dichotomy, by assuming that some people won't be comfortable for...  Reasons.

And yeah, some people don't think that X game will be for them.  I'm not a fan of Dominion or Carcassone, for example, and if someone's running a demo at a store or convention, and grabs my eye I'll politely decline.  But that's not cause I'll be uncomfortable, but rather it's not a game I'm interested in.  If someone pops open a Super Dungeon Explore, or a Warmachine (two games I've heard about, but not played), and offers to demo, I'll jump in.

In my experience, this has been the biggest reasons as to people say 'No'.  They're not interested, or they don't have the time.

Quote from: trechriron;943827I am not saying a convention that does not have inclusivity as a focus is now somehow a cesspool of horrible people doing horrible things. I'm saying that the convention I have attended two years in a row is fun and the focus I believe brings a variety of people that I don't often see in other venues. It's simply one convention in a plethora with a refreshing approach that I appreciate.

By claiming 'inclusivity' you're assuming that other cons, that don't use that title are somehow preventative or exclusive.  That's how SJW enforce their Puritanical tyranny, by claiming something is X, which is superiour, they're pushing the agenda that only THEY know what's right.

Quote from: trechriron;943827Now, what cons do you peeps really like for RPG gaming?  Which ones do you think suck for RPG gaming?

Name me ONE gaming convention on a state to national level that actively chases people out for wanting to game.  Just one.  And I'll show you a convention that isn't worth going to.  And probably won't last more than a year or two.

Quote from: trechriron;943827it's about the impact the bad ones have had on an individual.

See that right there is why I don't agree with this "focus".  It supports institutionalized victimhood.  It doesn't matter who you are or what's happened to you in your life, you have to be able to live in your own skin.

If you can't sit down at a table and play a game without overtly stated acceptance of who you are, then that means you don't 100% accept yourself who you are, and a place where other players hold your hand and treat you like a special, fragile thing isn't how you are going to get it.

Once that self-acceptance happens, then you won't care about others' overtly stated acceptance.
Until that self-acceptance happens, all the overtly stated acceptance just reinforces the idea that there's something wrong, wounded, whatever about you.

If someone is actually that fragile, and it's not self-indulgent horseshit, then they need help, not the reinforcement of harmful Avoidance defense mechanisms.

Trent, a couple questions...
1. Have you been to a con where tacit acceptance, and the understood "don't be a dick" didn't work and you personally saw toxic, unaccepting behavior?
2. Where's the 'proof' as it were, of the inclusivity bringing people together?  Do people sit down and declare their non-heteronormative classification before you played?  Did someone who identifies as a Reverse-TransDimensionallyGendered Wookie-Kin tell you how surprised they were that you didn't beat them up?
3. What do you think is actually happening? Are assholes just not showing up *because* of the focus?  Or do you think new people who would not have come before are showing up because of the focus?
4. Do you think things would really be any different if you just hung Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." over the front door?

I dunno man, all I see in my minds eye about a tabletop convention organized by Penny Arcade is just miles of tables with either * of Catan or Pathfinder being played, and that's it.  Fuck that noise; I've got better things to do than boring shit like Catan or "Watch me show off my wind-up Lego skills/feat tree" for 3 hours a session and $60/day.

Even the one time one of the two guys from PA actually played original D&D he stated he explicitly ran it as a museum piece, no your characters can't die, nothing here matters.  Like putting your party on a boat in Pirates of the Caribbean or walking through Madam Tussaud's.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;943883I dunno man, all I see in my minds eye about a tabletop convention organized by Penny Arcade is just miles of tables with either * of Catan or Pathfinder being played, and that's it.  Fuck that noise; I've got better things to do than boring shit like Catan or "Watch me show off my wind-up Lego skills/feat tree" for 3 hours a session and $60/day.

Even the one time one of the two guys from PA actually played original D&D he stated he explicitly ran it as a museum piece, no your characters can't die, nothing here matters.  Like putting your party on a boat in Pirates of the Caribbean or walking through Madam Tussaud's.

Eh, I doubt it will be that bad, I'm sure there will be at least 5e in addition to Pathfinder, maybe some of the other companies with Living Campaigns might do something.  On the media side, some people will take their Twitch shows there, maybe the Critical Role guys will do a show, I'm sure some of the Geek News outlets will cover it.  PAX is a name that has a longer Internet Attention Span Half-life, so people will want to be involved.  Visibility=Good.

After working Cons at the dealers' room 15+ years ago (Dundra, Kubla, Pacifi...) it will be too soon if and when I return to another gaming convention -- let alone pay for the privilege.

There's only a few things I wanna ever do: check out the dealers' room, check out the cheapo auctions, get in a game of VTES, try an (experimental or new-to-me) rpg. But i don't dig rpg one-shots much. And Org Play is about as fun as skin cancer to me.

The rest i am better off going to a phat party, stumbling ever onwards, and waking up a few days later in an afterglow blur. (Yes, it'll likely be the death of me... a sweet, delicious, overindulgent death.)

edit: So sign me up on dungeondelvers' doubt that "ride" will rival Disney animatronics...

Q.E.D.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;943760Why does a gamecon need to be social justice focused?

It doesn't. It just happens to be so. And since I know the assumptions some people will make about that I figured to dispel concerns right off the bat.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;943798It seems as though being a white bearded male has it's own stigma now, too, however.

Every group has a stigma now. Please don't adopt the victim narrative too.

#EqualOpportunity

Quote from: jeff37923;943823If some snowflake can't get over the fact that I am a white bearded grognard who enjoys RPGs because I look like someone that was a bearded white male who was mean to them in the past, then why should I reach to them?

Because they don't?

Quote from: jeff37923;943823So, this is to make sure that white males are kept in their place for the con.

We do not corral our white males. All of them are free range and only fed organic empanadas.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943814So what you're saying is Yes, you think gaming conventions where there isn't an INCLUSIVE sign over the front door will feature guys making vagina jokes, using racial epithets, and otherwise verbally raping and lynching the non-Privileged gamers.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;943841By claiming 'inclusivity' you're assuming that other cons, that don't use that title are somehow preventative or exclusive.

But who's doing the assuming here?

I'm reminded of that LARP I know which didn't want to implement a sexual harassment policy because it would imply sexual harassment was a problem there. And just because a con claims to be inclusive doesn't mean a con which doesn't isn't.

That's exactly the kind of fallacious thinking at the heart of the #IdentityPolitics you hate so much, where how someone labels a thing affects how you can label yourself. So lets not validate its use.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;943841Of course, there'll be bad experiences, no one's perfect, but by dwelling on those, you're creating an atmosphere where those bad times are seemingly common.

But who's dwelling on the bad experiences here?

Quote from: CRKrueger;943847See that right there is why I don't agree with this "focus".  It supports institutionalized victimhood.

It can. But it can also provide support for those who need it.

So how do you do one without the other?

Quote from: CRKrueger;943847Do you think things would really be any different if you just hung Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." over the front door?

Well, it does imply the male genitalia is somehow offensive by default.

#IKid

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;944083But who's doing the assuming here?

Not me, I'm not the one making this con.  If I were I wouldn't be using the virtue signaling BS this new PAX one is trying to.  I'd just make a Convention where board games, RPGs and card games are played.  It will be for others to decide whether or not to step in the door.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;944083I'm reminded of that LARP I know which didn't want to implement a sexual harassment policy because it would imply sexual harassment was a problem there. And just because a con claims to be inclusive doesn't mean a con which doesn't isn't.

Sexual harassment is a crime.  Not being 'inclusive' isn't, but the Identity Politickers want it to be, to suit their puritanical agenda.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;944083But who's dwelling on the bad experiences here?

Again, not sure why you think I am.  I still game, and quite happily.  In fact, I've had such great experiences with gaming and gamers of all types that I am one of the RPGSite's filthy, filthy New Schoolers, because I don't see the need to shackle myself to older games.  And I've played a few of those over the years, like Palladium Fantasy 1e, Rules Cyclopedia and had an awesome time with them.  But I'm always willing to try new games.  Can't promise I'll like them, but I promise to give them a fair shake.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;944083Well, it does imply the male genitalia is somehow offensive by default.

#IKid

Welcome to the modern Feminism Political Party.

Anon, you're right in that, declaring inclusivity at a con, by itself doesn't follow that the organizers think cons which don't do that somehow endorse or tacitly accept toxic behavior (but from typical SJW attitudes you can hardly blame someone from inferring it).

However, both you and Trentin have talked about the success of cons that have focused on inclusivity.

I haven't heard yet what you specifically thought what difference that made practically from the cons you attended before and after it, or any other con which did not declare inclusivity as a focus.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;944083Because they don't?

But they do. They want me to attend their gaming convention so that it can virtue signal how inclusive they are. As long as I behave in the way that they demand because since I am a white male I am expected to be a racist xenophobe homophobe exclusivity minded rapist.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;944083We do not corral our white males. All of them are free range and only fed organic empanadas.

Only when we are not being racist xenophobe homophobe exclusivity minded rapists. Otherwise, we do not get fed and are locked up in the coop.

Quote from: Voros;943802[ATTACH=CONFIG]683[/ATTACH]



You seem to be projecting a bit much. There are certainly spaces where some lefty LGBTQ activists seem to go out of their way to ensure anyone they spotcheck as straight, etc are not made to feel welcome but I don't think you'd ever have to worry about that happening at an RPG con.

Whoops, just adding to the derail, oh well at least I was able to include a Simpson's reference.

I don't hardly consider that a projection.  I paraphrased trechiron.  Given subsequent posts, I'm not the only one given that impression.

As far as succesful/unsuccessful cons, I'll hold up our local con Spocon, as something of a flop.  There has been so much nonsensical jockeying for power the last few years that the con has suffered.  

I've hit Dragpnflight a few times, between 09 and 12, i think.  It seemed to run pretty smoothly, my only critique (and why we haven't been back) is that it seems like its mostly the same group of GMs running mostly the same or very similar games.  We need to get back and see if its fresh-y again.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;944136Given subsequent posts, I'm not the only one given that impression.

Just because others project or share your 'impression' makes it no less a projection. The level of defensiveness over this is about as in proportion to those who lost their shit over a single 'virtue signalling' sidebar in the 5e PHB.

Loaded rhetoric like virtue signalling and special snowflakes, used like a mantra already throughout this and other threads need to join terms like mansplaining and rape culture on the junk heap.

Quote from: Voros;944155Just because others project or share your 'impression' makes it no less a projection. The level of defensiveness over this is about as in proportion to those who lost their shit over a single 'virtue signalling' sidebar in the 5e PHB.

Loaded rhetoric like virtue signalling and special snowflakes, used like a mantra already throughout this and other threads need to join terms like mansplaining and rape culture on the junk heap.

Right up there with the word "projecting".  You get to toss that term around without actually addressing the point.  The very same shit you accuse others in the thread of.

Nobody projected shit:

Per Threchriron:  I don't look at it as some affront to my personal freedoms, but more as the possibility to connect with people who might otherwise have some anxiety in gaming with me (being a white male bearded grognard who is easily categorized as "one of those guys"...)

Is this a statement of personal experience or not?

You claimed that you were somehow not welcome as a white male even though none of these cons made a statement excluding white males or even addressing white males. Somehow a statement of everyone being welcome is read as excluding you. How is that not overly defensive, even paranoid?

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;943775I have no qualms with that being stated up front.  What I don't follow is why that has to be the focus?

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

And my reaction was based on trechriron's assessment of "one of those guys", that I quoted in my previous reply.  I've been to cons and never felt unwelcome.  I'm done replying to your attacks on me

Your nitpicking about the 'the focus' is a red herring that's why I ignored it.

Questioning your BS= 'attacks on me'

#Iamthevictim

Quote from: Voros;944231Your nitpicking about the 'the focus' is a red herring that's why I ignored it.

Questioning your BS= 'attacks on me'

#Iamthevictim

BS. You're just fanning non existant internet arguments and making assumptionss about my intent in spite of what I've actually written; tossing out strawmen to pick fights.  Focus of a gamecon is games.

#dontfeedthetroll

Suicide in the wimp hobby.

This is A grade retarded shit. Amazing how quickly gamers are excited to eat their own.

Of course, there is nothing inclusive in the Cult of Victimhood.

But hey, I guess all those women and non-white gamers in the hobby in the past 40 years must have all been imaginary...or victims.

Ugh. I am truly astounded by the White Knighting bullshit.

WTF do grown adults need an inclusivity diaper to attend events?

For decades, I've seen many thousands of non-white men and women attend concerts, movies, and sports events at venues without any diaper posting.

How did these poor helpless men and women fucking survive the experience???

Any org with Codes of Conduct or their memetic kin aren't worthy of your time or your money.

The argument always goes like this. It's getting old. And boring.

In my opinion, non-white males, LBGTQ, and female players are under-represented in our hobby. Even here in sunny leftsville Seattle, the majority of the players that show up to play in my games are white males. I honestly don't care anymore about the why's and wherefore's. I'm not BLAMING anyone. I certainly am not telling you what to do. I'm not saying your'e a horrible person, nor did I accuse anyone of being a rapist. I don't believe in this false dichotomy. In my heart reaching out to new demographics of players is the right thing to do AND I enjoy playing with a diverse crowd. We know that potential players from these demographics are intimidated or worried about participation because THEY TOLD US. You may want to dismiss these pleas, but I'm not going to.

I believe stating up front that your con is inclusive works. I witnessed a greater variety of players at OrcaCon and I believe this added to the energy of the con. Stating your con is inclusive is NOT an indictment of other cons that don't. Back in the day we called this "grasping at straws". For example, stating that I like Agricola does not mean that Carcassone is a bad game.

You want to be offended by something? You really want to be pissed? Here let me help. I like helping.

You're tired old boring white-male focused games are not just an offence to society but also an offense to masculinity. Oh, and they're stupid. Your micro-penises are ruining our hobby. You should huddle under your covers like the sex-addled pubescent turd-boys you are.

There. Now you can freak out, rage against the leftist machine, and cry havoc into the sky. You're welcome.  (If you read that sarcastic nonsense above and were personally insulted, I'm guessing something about my comedy name-calling struck home... this is where I might suggest seeking a hug from someone who loves you.)

Now, I asked twice about what cons you like and why, and instead we get angry posters pissing the screen. Cool. But wouldn't just telling us about your con be more convincing? And maybe even fun?

Quote from: trechriron;944284Even here in sunny leftsville Seattle, the majority of the players that show up to play in my games are white males.

Why is that surprising and/or troubling?  Seattle is more than 2/3 white, and males generally like the type of gameplay that TTRPGs/board games represent more than females do.  I believe that males are approx. 80-90% of TTRPG players.  So even going with the lowest values of both, 2/3 and 80%, that would mean that you should expect at least 53.3% of of TTRPG players to be white males.  Anything else would be a disproportionately low # of white males.

Having the majority of players who show up being white males doesn't mean that everyone else is too scared to show up to cons.  It's representative of the gaming populace in Seattle.

Quote from: trechriron;944284The argument always goes like this. It's getting old. And boring.

What's boring is a normally fearless and straitforward poster dodging direct questions when political beliefs are challenged.  Ignore the raving and focus on stating your case.  You're the one that made it.

Quote from: trechriron;944284In my opinion, non-white males, LBGTQ, and female players are under-represented in our hobby.

So, you think that the hobby must take an official Outreach Position? More importantly, do you think that people who will only join the hobby if specifically pulled with with an Outreach Position will be better for the hobby overall?

Quote from: trechriron;944284I believe stating up front that your con is inclusive works. I witnessed a greater variety of players at OrcaCon and I believe this added to the energy of the con.

Ok, forget about the "energy" of the con, that's not very measurable.  Let's get into some specifics including some questions you ignored in my last post...  

• Have you been to a con where tacit acceptance, and the understood "don't be a dick" didn't work and you personally saw toxic, unaccepting behavior?
• What games did you play at the last Con?
• Did you have a larger percentage of Non-White, Non-Male players at the events you attended?
• How did you know whether players were LBGTQ or not?  Did anyone purposely self-identify themselves at the table?
• How different were the games?  Are you claiming that somehow the events themselves were run differently?
• Your first-hand account leads you to believe that people are showing up under the banner of "Inclusive" that otherwise don't show up to cons that aren't labeled "Inclusive"?  Is that correct?
• Do you think things would really be any different if you just hung Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." over the front door?
• Gaming in general is heating up thanks to Twitch/Critical Role, etc.  Have you witnessed a con of similar size recently without a stated inclusive focus, that didn't have the "energy" you are reporting?  In other words, can Cons be getting hotter because Gaming is getting cooler?
• Did you actually speak with anyone at Orcacon about the "Inclusive" Focus and did anyone tell you that is why they came?  In other words, do you have any specific anecdotes that support your contention?

Quote from: trechriron;944284Stating your con is inclusive is NOT an indictment of other cons that don't.

It's not an indictment against cons that don't, but it is drawing a distinction for ad copy purposes, just like advertising that you have the largest collection of Hex and Chit Wargame events on the West Coast.  The implication is, the other cons, by comparison, do not have such a focus, and by simple logic are not as inclusive.

Quote from: trechriron;944284You want to be offended by something? You really want to be pissed? Here let me help. I like helping.
You're tired old boring white-male focused games are not just an offence to society but also an offense to masculinity. Oh, and they're stupid. Your micro-penises are ruining our hobby. You should huddle under your covers like the sex-addled pubescent turd-boys you are.

Talk about boring.  I could retort with something equally inane, but I'd rather squelch the noise and talk about Practical Concrete Differences.

Quote from: trechriron;944284But wouldn't just telling us about your con be more convincing? And maybe even fun?

You don't want something examined, don't put it forth to be so.  You are the one claiming you saw a practical, positive difference the "Inclusive" tag makes, and you're not the only one, but you didn't think you get asked "What difference?" Really?

Without telling us WHY you think this is working, all the talk of "energy" can easily be dismissed as a SJW/Lefty just feeling better about himself.  Explain your position like you did during the censorship threads.

He did say the con attracted a crowd of people he enjoyed playing with, didn't he? Seems that would be plenty of "energy".

If there is anyone, in the world, ever, that has been looking to be offended, it is white straight dudes who think "being inclusive" is an attack on their white straight dudeness.

The word itself can be cover for all sorts of nonsense and mischief; I don't see that here.

Quote from: Arminius;944303He did say the con attracted a crowd of people he enjoyed playing with, didn't he? Seems that would be plenty of "energy".

Isn't that the point of a Con?  If Cons didn't do that, he wouldn't still be going to them, would he?

OrcaCon's only 2 years old and was funded by Kickstarter.  I wonder if that helped the "energy" at all?

BTW, not directed at Arminius, but this is from the original OrcaCon Kickstarter...

Quote from: OrcaCon KickstarterWe feel it's so important to create an environment that's different from other game conventions we've attended in the past, so with OrcaCon we're focusing on welcoming people of all ages and game experience levels.

I'm sure that Spinachcat wishes the hundred cons he runs stuff at did that, so he could welcome new gamers for the first time in his 20-year RPG convention career.

You can look at the actual policies here:
Accessibility Policy (http://www.orcacon.org/orcacon-policies/accessibility-policy/)
Anti-Harassment Policy (http://www.orcacon.org/anti-harassment-policy/)
A quote:

Quote from: OrcaCon WebsiteWhy does OrcaCon need an anti-harassment policy?

We’ve implemented an anti-harassment policy in response to widespread reports of harassment in geek communities and at conventions. Read more about why action on harassment at geek conventions is necessary by visiting the Ada Initiative website.

They're totally not saying that people who will be safe at OrcaCon won't be safe at other cons though...Dreamcon must have been a real atrocity back in the day.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294What's boring is a normally fearless and straitforward poster dodging direct questions when political beliefs are challenged.  Ignore the raving and focus on stating your case.  You're the one that made it.

OK. I'll give it my college best.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294So, you think that the hobby must take an official Outreach Position? More importantly, do you think that people who will only join the hobby if specifically pulled with with an Outreach Position will be better for the hobby overall?

Yes and yes. I believe that there are more non-white males and females in general out there that would like to participate in the hobby. I'm not saying there are not already non-white males and females in general participating. I'm saying we could and should have more! Not because we need to fill a quota, but because people are saying they would participate more if our hobby looked less like the Skull & Bones society and perhaps a little more like open gym at the Boys & Girls club. As a white male, I think it's important to listen to people who are not like me. OrcaCon's focus on inclusivity came about because of people's complaints, experiences and suggestions. I'm not advocating "outreach" more like a simple attitude change with a direct statement of intent. In my experience over the last two years, that simple approach ATTRACTED more non-white male participants.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294Ok, forget about the "energy" of the con, that's not very measurable.  Let's get into some specifics including some questions you ignored in my last post...  

• Have you been to a con where tacit acceptance, and the understood "don't be a dick" didn't work and you personally saw toxic, unaccepting behavior?
• What games did you play at the last Con?
• Did you have a larger percentage of Non-White, Non-Male players at the events you attended?
• How did you know whether players were LBGTQ or not?  Did anyone purposely self-identify themselves at the table?
• How different were the games?  Are you claiming that somehow the events themselves were run differently?
• Your first-hand account leads you to believe that people are showing up under the banner of "Inclusive" that otherwise don't show up to cons that aren't labeled "Inclusive"?  Is that correct?
• Do you think things would really be any different if you just hung Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." over the front door?
• Gaming in general is heating up thanks to Twitch/Critical Role, etc.  Have you witnessed a con of similar size recently without a stated inclusive focus, that didn't have the "energy" you are reporting?  In other words, can Cons be getting hotter because Gaming is getting cooler?
• Did you actually speak with anyone at Orcacon about the "Inclusive" Focus and did anyone tell you that is why they came?  In other words, do you have any specific anecdotes that support your contention?

1) Absolutely. In fact, 15 years ago I was guilty of the same unacceptable behavior. The simple disparaging or assumed male superiority comments that I grew up hearing in the garage, the locker room or in camping expeditions (like with cub scouts or Civil Air Patrol). I have engaged in and witnessed plenty of bad behavior. Was it malicious? No. It was "in good jest". But later in life I have learned, from women, exactly how these behaviors can make them feel.
2) The first OrcaCon I ran all the Star Wars beginner games. At this con I ran Castles & Crusades.
3) Yes. I had several women and non-white males. More so than I have experienced at say Metro Seattle Gamers (grognard white boy's club) or Norwescon. Dragonflight is organized by a team including several women, but there are still no non-whites participating outside the lawyer, who is of Arabic decent IIRC. Verne & Wells was filled with white males the day I visited for a walk-through. The best diversity I've seen so far outside OrcaCon was at several gaming venues in the Seattle-Bellevue area like Ray Guns and Cafe Mox.
4) Many people bought buttons that identified their sexual preference or sympathies (mine was Hetero Ally). Also, there are gender pronoun preference ribbons. No one had to "self-identify" but based on buttons/ribbons, there were many more LBGTQ people at the con than I have seen at other cons I have attended over the years.
5) The events are not run differently. They did have a fantastic "looking for players" stand thing someone hand-crafted that helped games find more players or pick-up games to recruit players. There were also facilitators who wandered about helping people find games to get into. Certainly a different focus on putting games together than I normally see, which is usually "post it, hope for sign-ups, or wander about like a town crier....".
6) Yes. That is not just my impression, but my observation.
7) Yes. It's too late to communicate or market at that point. The idea is to get the word out that this con is focused on inclusive gaming. It's just like the principles or mission statement a company formulates and then shares with employees during orientation. It's a focus. It's saying "please mind what we believe in and what we're trying to accomplish here." It's not just "don't be a dick", it's also "think of the variety of people out there and make/run/play games with the idea of not pushing people not-like you away from the table with your behavior or content."
8) How could I not agree with this question - of course! It does not invalidate the mission of an inclusive gaming con. I can say even with Norwescon's very open-minded band of communities, the energy in their gaming hall is nothing like OrcaCon's. I'm sure this has multiple factors (OrcaCon is gaming focused, NWC is not for example). But the people wandering about at OrcaCon were more engaged, happier, less haughty and more smiles than NWC (as an example). When people are comfortable and can be themselves without fear of backlash, I believe it makes them happier. I believe I witnessed this very thing at OrcaCon.
9) That particular litmus test has nothing to do with supporting my contention. You don't get to define the boundaries of my experiences or opinions. I don't have EVIDENCE as suggested nor do I care to hire a film crew, brew up a documentary and then present it to you. I believe the focus on inclusivity made this con better and would make other cons better. I believe it directly contributed to the energy I felt why I was there.

I have been gaming for 35 years now. I have attended several conventions from my first Dragonflight when I was 16 or 17 and could drive myself to Seattle, to some small convention in Portland, to a Dragonflight later and several NeonCons in Las Vegas, to more Game Days than I could count. This is not new to me. I am making a comparison of my experiences. I believe it's high time the white boy's club diversified. I'm not going to be easily dissuaded from that belief. I also find it absurd you want something measurable. It's my belief and account, not a fucking treatise on inclusive gaming. And in all fairness, why not start with your own "evidence" or documentary? Can we even collect our feelings, experiences and beliefs into a documentary?

I love the idea of posting a "don't be a dick" sign in the registration area. It's a fantastic idea. I would still do everything the same regarding inclusivity. See? It's not the dichotomy you see it as. I just want to play with more people that don't look like me, or share my religion, or share my political beliefs. I want diversity and I believe that stating that upfront is a useful way of accomplishing that. You know, like how people communicate across their other various relationships?

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294It's not an indictment against cons that don't, but it is drawing a distinction for ad copy purposes, just like advertising that you have the largest collection of Hex and Chit Wargame events on the West Coast.  The implication is, the other cons, by comparison, do not have such a focus, and by simple logic are not as inclusive.  ...

This is the most biased question yet and seriously attempts to railroad the conversation along your ideas of "how the universe works", but for the sake of completeness; a mission statement is NOT for ad copy purposes. This is not some propaganda I'm injecting into a meme to brainwash you into believing exactly what I tell you to. It is simply a principle. A mission statement. A desire to communicate to the hobby, to reach out to those who might otherwise not want to participate that there is a con focused on making their experience as fun as any other white-male might expect to have. It's a positive action FOR something in the hopes of increasing diversity and changing the stereo-type (based on past behaviors) of the gaming hobby/community. Your example of "baseless ad copy exclamation" IS declaring (or attempting to establish) a fact. This is not that kind of claim. No one claimed that OrcaCon was "the only inclusive con". It's a focus. It's a mission. No humans anywhere are going to execute 100% on a mission statement. But we can try, yes? If instead the con above advertised "we are focused on hosting the largest collection of Hex and Chit Wargame events on the West Coast - come help us be the Hex and Chit destination con!" you would be getting MUCH closer to what the inclusivity mission of OrcaCon is.

I don't give seven bull testicles about the politics. What I can say for sure is I will be attending OrcaCon in 2018 and I expect to have the same level of high-energy fun.

I hope that clears some things up.

Quote from: trechriron;944396I'm saying we could and should have more! Not because we need to fill a quota, but because people are saying they would participate more if our hobby looked less like the Skull & Bones society and perhaps a little more like open gym at the Boys & Girls club.

Maybe hold a convention in Brighton then?

Quote from: trechriron;944396As a white male, I think it's important to listen to people who are not like me.

As a human being, I think it's important to listen to anyone based on their ideas, not their Victimhood Score.

Quote from: trechriron;944396In my experience over the last two years, that simple approach ATTRACTED more non-white male participants.

I can see it, Seattle's one of the whitest major cities in America, I think only Portland is whiter.

Quote from: trechriron;944396there were many more LBGTQ people at the con than I have seen at other cons I have attended over the years.

Interesting.  I guess my point was, without ribbons, buttons and bows, you can't actually say that, can you?  You can certainly say more people are self-identifying with ribbons, buttons, and bows.  

Quote from: trechriron;944396When people are comfortable and can be themselves without fear of backlash, I believe it makes them happier. I believe I witnessed this very thing at OrcaCon.

Fair enough.

Quote from: trechriron;944396That particular litmus test has nothing to do with supporting my contention. You don't get to define the boundaries of my experiences or opinions.

No, but I do get to comment on them. :D  You're a 40-something White Hetero Fatbeard.  Part of "listening to people who aren't you" is also "not putting words in their mouth for them".  Obviously you thought it made a difference, but to be brutally honest and fair, of course you would.  Anyone who sees themselves on the top of the pyramid, and specifically does something to help those lower on the pyramid always thinks it makes a difference.  However, if you had heard at least one LGBTQ person address your "Hetero Ally" button, or talk about how great it was that OrcaCon let them be themselves at a gaming convention, or isn't Crackerville like they thought it would be, then that would be at least anecdotal proof as opposed to your being all fuzzy and glowy in your self-righteousness and projecting that onto everyone you saw.

Quote from: trechriron;944396And in all fairness, why not start with your own "evidence" or documentary?

Because I didn't make any claims about Conventions who focus on inclusiveness or not.  You said you thought it made for a better con.  I asked how and why.

Quote from: trechriron;944396I love the idea of posting a "don't be a dick" sign in the registration area. It's a fantastic idea. I would still do everything the same regarding inclusivity. See? It's not the dichotomy you see it as. I just want to play with more people that don't look like me, or share my religion, or share my political beliefs.

Fair enough.  I grew up going to conventions in Los Angeles.  Even in the 80s, to tell you the god's honest truth, I don't think I've ever sat down at a convention table that was all White Men.  Miniatures, sure, but not RPGs.

Quote from: trechriron;944396This is the most biased question yet and seriously attempts to railroad the conversation along your ideas of "how the universe works", but for the sake of completeness; a mission statement is NOT for ad copy purposes. This is not some propaganda I'm injecting into a meme to brainwash you into believing exactly what I tell you to. It is simply a principle. A mission statement. A desire to communicate to the hobby

They weren't charging admission then?  Ad copy isn't necessary propaganda.  If you're charging admission, you're selling tickets.  If you're selling something, then your promotion is ad copy.  The mission statement is the advertisment, that's what you're hoping people will come and support via participation and dollars.  If you're selling tickets and advertising inclusivity, you're in part selling inclusivity.  That doesn't necessarily mean you don't mean it.

For what's it's worth, I think you're right.  I can totally see people showing up to an inclusive con that they otherwise wouldn't if they couldn't overtly declare their identity, and you, by convention policy, were assumed to be overtly accepting by your presence.

That's my entire problem with it, actually.  The idea that people can't just socially interact without that need for acceptance, without the cover of "official protection".  That's not healthy.  

Add to that transgender people are .3% of the population.  How many were at that convention?  How many of the people wearing those alternative pronoun ribbons were actually genderfluid?  Pretty sure a small percentage, the rest was just self-indulgence or getting attention.  

Just like once people went apeshit bending over backwards for people who suffered from Asperger's, tons of disaffected teens were self-identifying/self-diagnosing as Asperger's.  Once that stopped being the Prime Attention Tag, the self-identification shifted.  Just like those attention-seekers who were fucking things up for people with real Asperger's, the attention-seekers now are fucking things up for people who are actually Transgendered.

Even if people are super happy at that one convention. It's not helping.

Finally a thread that makes me feel better about the hobby diminishing!!

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;944288Having the majority of players who show up being white males doesn't mean that everyone else is too scared to show up to cons.

The Latino chicks at Slayer shows (who are rarely taller than 5'4") must be the bravest fuckers on the planet. Maybe the second bravest, next to the equally short, but usually thinner Asian chicks at the Whitechapel shows. A quarter of the pit at Slipknot last fall had vaginas and dark skin.

All that achieved with ZERO inclusivity!

Millions of people who don't look like me have the bravery to do WTF they want for fun without hesitation or fear, but RPGs have to dig around for lawncrappers with different skin colors or junk in their shorts.

How noble of us to go from catpissmen to catpissgenderfluid!!

Unfuckingbelievable.

Quote from: trechriron;944284We know that potential players from these demographics are intimidated or worried about participation because THEY TOLD US. You may want to dismiss these pleas, but I'm not going to.

I can't imagine how we've gotten to the point of recruiting people into the hobby from the gutter of emotional invalids.

Did the con make sure to have inclusive food vendors so the invalids weren't too afraid to eat?

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294

• How did you know whether players were LBGTQ or not?

The con assigned them pink triangles?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;944365If there is anyone, in the world, ever, that has been looking to be offended, it is white straight dudes who think "being inclusive" is an attack on their white straight dudeness.

It's nigh impossible to offend me.

I just find White Knighting to be grotesque disrespect.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but somehow if women and minorities can vote, go to any college, start thriving businesses, achieve political offices, and go and do WTF they imagine and desire, then it *MAY BE POSSIBLE* they can even engage in a geeky hobby without us honkies strapping a diaper to their asses.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944371I'm sure that Spinachcat wishes the hundred cons he runs stuff at did that, so he could welcome new gamers for the first time in his 20-year RPG convention career.

Every con is just rape, rape, roll initiative, rape, rape, hand out XP.

Who the fuck has time to welcome new gamers?

RPG con rape quotas = new White Man's Burden

Quote from: trechriron;9443964) Many people bought buttons that identified their sexual preference or sympathies (mine was Hetero Ally). Also, there are gender pronoun preference ribbons.

Oh.for.fucks.sake.

That's not a game con.  That's a virtue signalling circle jerk.

Quote from: trechriron;944396No one had to "self-identify" but based on buttons/ribbons, there were many more LBGTQ people at the con than I have seen at other cons I have attended over the years.

How liberal of them not to force pink triangles on people!

We've always had LOTS of LGBT gamers.

Quote from: trechriron;944396It's not just "don't be a dick", it's also "think of the variety of people out there and make/run/play games with the idea of not pushing people not-like you away from the table with your behavior or content."

Louis Farrakhan promised us there were UFOs coming to kill white people.

Louie!!! Call down the deathrays before more fucking honkies start thinking black people can't play Settlers of Catan without an inclusivity mission statement!!

Quote from: trechriron;943515So, what cons do you really like for tabletop (especially RPGs)...

I haven't really done much tabletop Rpging at cons, whether tabletop was the focus or it was an add-on. I've been to Dragonflight twice, and Gencon once (16 years ago), but I haven't participated in more than a couple of demos for new Rpgs. I was more interested in browsing dealer rooms, or going to special events.

To be honest, I've never found a lot of appeal in tabletop conventions, even those close to home. I've always played in private groups; have never really been interested in being part of a "community"; or sought out birds of a similar feather. I don't think I'd get a lot of enjoyment participating in convention gaming. Not because of any exclusivity-concerns - but because I think I'd run into the most annoying, jaded, cynical, hard-core gamers, regardless of their sexual identity/gender/preferences.

Quote..what cons do you avoid because the gaming is a "miss"?

I've been to Pax (West) a few times, with friends, in 2013 and 2014. Pretty uninspiring when it comes to Rpg gaming, unless you want to get in a few games of Pathfinder or perhaps some 5e. Not my thing at all.

Quote from: trechriron;944396Yes and yes. I believe that there are more non-white males and females in general out there that would like to participate in the hobby.

To be more accurate the issue here isn't about participating in the hobby, the issues here are about participating in the hobby's social scene surrounding conventions, blogging, game stores, LARPS, etc.

IN 2017, the vast majority of tabletop roleplaying occurs in small social tight knit groups playing in people's homes. The hobby's social scene is only engaged by a minority of those who play.

Circa 1990, the local game store owner (or employees) being a bunch of racist and/or sexist jackassess would be a major issue for anybody non-white, female, or of a different orientation trying to participate in the hobby itself. Undoubtedly folks felt there were better uses for their time than trying to deal with that to buy a copy of the latest game. It could even afflict a mass market retailer like Barnes and Nobles.

However it now 2016 with Amazon, and dozens of other retail sites where everybody hiding behind semi-anonymous IDs. The issue of prejudice in terms buying the materials to play has been greatly diminished. We don't know at this point the exact makeup of who plays tabletop but if a non-traditional groups is playing they have to deal with a lot less bullshit than before.

With that being said, I am in agreement that in general we have to be proactive about being inclusive when it comes to the  hobby's social scene. There  will be disagreement how to accomplishment this but again in 2017 trying and supporting different approach is a lot more doable than in the past.

I dunno about the details but I still feel a few points are being overlooked by one side or the other:

• Local cultures vary. In the Bay Area, I expect a diverse crowd and I expect the diverse crowd (so to speak) is already confident they'll fit in. Other places, maybe not. Can't say about Seattle, but being practically Canadians they may automatically assume something is wrong if they don't have many representatives of "marginalized" groups among their attendees, even if that's just a reflection of local demographics.
• The proof is in the pudding. Or as someone said above, "in practice".
• In particular if you can go there as a cis-gendered heterosexual person of non-color and also feel comfortable and accepted, who gives a crap what the mission statement could imply if you read it in the tone of a militant Tumblrina?
• On the other hand the badges and ribbons are goofy and if not wearing one puts a target on you, screw that. I'll privately roll eyes and not attend next time should it be more than I can handle.
• Same if there are panels and events that cheerlead hatred and outrage.

I am not "white-knighting" anything. I am not of the belief that people need to be coddled, or "helped up", or any of that crap. I don't believe people like me are not capable.

I simply appreciated the mission, and I believe it helped bring people out who might otherwise not come. It's also nice because when interacting with people they get to see that I'm not the "evil white fatbeard troll" they might have thought me to be. Again, I'm sorry this idea makes people so angry. I know what it's like to get angry (I wanted to set the world on fire when DTRPG started pitching people off the ship because they weren't in the cool kids club...). Just know that I would just as happily have any one of you RPG enthusiasts here at theRPGsite at my table. Even the ones that think I'm a bleeding-heart lefty (or want to grab me by the collars and scream "what's wrong with you!!!!").

:D

Quote from: Arminius;944468I dunno about the details but I still feel a few points are being overlooked by one side or the other:

• Local cultures vary. In the Bay Area, I expect a diverse crowd and I expect the diverse crowd (so to speak) is already confident they'll fit in. Other places, maybe not. Can't say about Seattle, but being practically Canadians they may automatically assume something is wrong if they don't have many representatives of "marginalized" groups among their attendees, even if that's just a reflection of local demographics.
• The proof is in the pudding. Or as someone said above, "in practice".
• In particular if you can go there as a cis-gendered heterosexual person of non-color and also feel comfortable and accepted, who gives a crap what the mission statement could imply if you read it in the tone of a militant Tumblrina?
• On the other hand the badges and ribbons are goofy and if not wearing one puts a target on you, screw that. I'll privately roll eyes and not attend next time should it be more than I can handle.
• Same if there are panels and events that cheerlead hatred and outrage.

Well put.

Quote from: Spinachcat;944417The Latino chicks at Slayer shows (who are rarely taller than 5'4") must be the bravest fuckers on the planet. Maybe the second bravest, next to the equally short, but usually thinner Asian chicks at the Whitechapel shows. A quarter of the pit at Slipknot last fall had vaginas and dark skin.

All that achieved with ZERO inclusivity!

Poor comparison.

I'm sure you know several members of Slayer are latino and metal in general in the US has a strong latino contingent, in no little part due to many latino members in the bands and the popularity of metal in South America and the many death metal, etc bands from there.

Quote from: Arminius;944468I dunno about the details but I still feel a few points are being overlooked by one side or the other:

• Local cultures vary. In the Bay Area, I expect a diverse crowd and I expect the diverse crowd (so to speak) is already confident they'll fit in. Other places, maybe not. Can't say about Seattle, but being practically Canadians they may automatically assume something is wrong if they don't have many representatives of "marginalized" groups among their attendees, even if that's just a reflection of local demographics.

1/4 people in Seattle are POC so your demographics argument doesn't stand up.

It's not an argument...but I'll concede the fact. If anything it reinforces the larger point.

Quote from: trechriron;944284Now, I asked twice about what cons you like and why, and instead we get angry posters pissing the screen. Cool. But wouldn't just telling us about your con be more convincing? And maybe even fun?

I like the ones where the dancing houris with kohl blacked eyes gyrate their hips in a hypnotic dervish while the bardiches circles the room serving honeyed wine, hashished baklavah, and dates glazed in opium... and then sometimes we game.

I dunno, pretty much all the cons I went to sucked ass, and I got in free because I had to work the booth.

What would make for a better Con experience?

*cheaper entrance (besides "run something to enter for free")
*concession support variety.
*an ambient/lounge room (even w/ a bot DJ playlist)
*darkness, density, danger -- y'know, something to make it feel worth more than a glorified gamer garage gathering)
*beer fountain
*an unconsentual convention-wide Changeling the Dreaming LARP, disrupting anything at will
*whirling dervish houris & bardiche servers (may settle for booty bouncers and emo baristas)
*a safe space diversity affirmation with armbanded religious enforcers (nah, just kidding! that's too far...)

Quote from: K Peterson;944453To be honest, I've never found a lot of appeal in tabletop conventions, even those close to home. I've always played in private groups; have never really been interested in being part of a "community"; or sought out birds of a similar feather. I don't think I'd get a lot of enjoyment participating in convention gaming. Not because of any exclusivity-concerns - but because I think I'd run into the most annoying, jaded, cynical, hard-core gamers, regardless of their sexual identity/gender/preferences.

I can't find the appeal, either. And it has nothing to do with "birds of a feather" because I gladly butterfly any scene. In fact, I celebrate finding the most jaded, cynical, hard-core gamers because they have a scintilla of resonance to my jaded cynical self.

I don't get cons, outside of catching up with out-of-towner gamers and updating my rolodex (dated!) the next time I'm in their area. Beyond networking, kvetching, and maybe a classic pick-up game, there's little I have enjoyed about cons. (Granted I only got a chance to "enjoy them" after work, so maybe the evening to night set are absolute bores. At least my room/table hopping leaned that way...)

Several good suggestions there regarding ambience and lighting. Someone to welcome and direct people, or just some friendly people at an info booth would also help. The only cons I attended were depressing affairs for much the same reason. Thinking of attending a local con in March but I fear a repeat of the disorganized clumps of people wandering an air hangar with flood lights experience.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944133I haven't heard yet what you specifically thought what difference that made practically from the cons you attended before and after it, or any other con which did not declare inclusivity as a focus.

It doesn't. That's the point. Same shit goes down at every con I've ever gone to. Sure some are better than others, but that's largely due to the mix of attendees rather than any policies. And I've encountered all sorts of folks at Dexposure events, from the Alt-Right to the Ctrl-Left, all interacting without issue.

I'm starting to see more drama bleed from the internet to all walks of life however, which concerns me greatly. People are starting to live in a fantasy world based completely on their own subjective experiences, and that sort of thinking is just ripe for tribalism and tyranny.

Quote from: jeff37923;944134But they do. They want me to attend their gaming convention so that it can virtue signal how inclusive they are. As long as I behave in the way that they demand because since I am a white male I am expected to be a racist xenophobe homophobe exclusivity minded rapist.

***

Only when we are not being racist xenophobe homophobe exclusivity minded rapists. Otherwise, we do not get fed and are locked up in the coop.

I don't know what to tell you other than it's not true.

Quote from: Voros;944223You claimed that you were somehow not welcome as a white male even though none of these cons made a statement excluding white males or even addressing white males. Somehow a statement of everyone being welcome is read as excluding you. How is that not overly defensive, even paranoid?

I'm deeply paranoid about being ostracized and losing friends, and my past is full of occasions to justify that concern. However I've never been excluded because people thought I was a white male. Even rpg.net's rabid social justice criteria bans people on the basis of wrongthink rather than race.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;944276Any [STRIKE]org[/STRIKE] society [STRIKE]with Codes of Conduct[/STRIKE] without Rule of Law or their memetic kin aren't worthy of your time or your money.

Fixed your spelling.

Quote from: trechriron;944284In my opinion, non-white males, LBGTQ, and female players are under-represented in our hobby. Even here in sunny leftsville Seattle, the majority of the players that show up to play in my games are white males. I honestly don't care anymore about the why's and wherefore's. I'm not BLAMING anyone.

But others are blaming white males for keeping them out of the hobby, so while the reactions here may be overstated they're not unwarranted. And while I disagree with that assessment, I can't challenge it without being accused of gaslighting and questioning lived experiences, so we never get to the point where we can address the actual source of the problem.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;944288Having the majority of players who show up being white males doesn't mean that everyone else is too scared to show up to cons.  It's representative of the gaming populace in Seattle.

Yeah. People so rarely consider demographics in these matters.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944371BTW, not directed at Arminius, but this is from the original OrcaCon Kickstarter...

Quote from: OrcaCon KickstarterWe feel it's so important to create an environment that's different from other game conventions we've attended in the past, so with OrcaCon we're focusing on welcoming people of all ages and game experience levels.

Now that's bullshit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416As a human being, I think it's important to listen to anyone based on their ideas,

Agre...

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416not their Victimhood Score.

...*sigh*

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416Anyone who sees themselves on the top of the pyramid, and specifically does something to help those lower on the pyramid always thinks it makes a difference.

Which is why some believe making a difference requires being on top.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416However, if you had heard at least one LGBTQ person address your "Hetero Ally" button, or talk about how great it was that OrcaCon let them be themselves at a gaming convention, or isn't Crackerville like they thought it would be, then that would be at least anecdotal proof

There's two problems with declaring oneself to be an ally. The first is that designation really needs to come from the party which considers you to be an ally to have any real legitimacy. The second is it's a political relationship ultimately incompatible with genuine friendship and romance. Ever hear the phrase "Never mix business with pleasure"? Well that goes double for politics.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416as opposed to your being all fuzzy and glowy in your self-righteousness and projecting that onto everyone you saw.

I honestly lack the energy to read through this thread a second time, but as I recall he was only relaying his personal experiences about how inclusiveness worked for him, and not projecting it onto anyone else.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416That's my entire problem with it, actually.  The idea that people can't just socially interact without that need for acceptance, without the cover of "official protection".  That's not healthy.

I'm reminded of that time when my very white friend was tricked into going to a very black comedy club by someone he was trying to hook up with online. #Awkward. Also hilarious.

This isn't about safety or acceptance, but the simple gut human instinct we all share when not surrounded by others like us. It doesn't matter if they're hostile or wish us harm. It's alienating.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416Add to that transgender people are .3% of the population.

But a far larger proportion of the #Anime, #Gaming, and #Furry fandoms.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416How many were at that convention?  How many of the people wearing those alternative pronoun ribbons were actually genderfluid?  Pretty sure a small percentage, the rest was just self-indulgence or getting attention.  

Just like once people went apeshit bending over backwards for people who suffered from Asperger's, tons of disaffected teens were self-identifying/self-diagnosing as Asperger's.  Once that stopped being the Prime Attention Tag, the self-identification shifted.  Just like those attention-seekers who were fucking things up for people with real Asperger's, the attention-seekers now are fucking things up for people who are actually Transgendered.

On the one hand, I've seen how everybody playing victim can make it harder for 'actual' victims to find help. On the other hand, questioning one's victim status is exactly how we get #OppressionOlympics and revictimize 'actual' victims. There's just no way to win this.

Cosplayers getting in for free if they serve concessions (for tips!), or escort lost gamers to their game room (for tips!), might spice things up.

Honestly, I dunno what to do. The whole affair needs a city for critical mass for amenities, yet cities already have regular FLGS (family local game stores) and house game meetups. The whole point of a Convention is to gather those unlikely with an excuse to meet, then mix & share. Yet most Cons are filled with dregs lawncrappers (I include the hyper-competitive Org/Tourney Play & fragile eggshells here too) and banal offerings.

A chill getting-to-know you space might help, as might copious amounts of booze, but the whole affair comes across like anteing up beaucoup $$$ to play super deluxe Monopoly with goofier rules.

Quote from: Opaopajr;944603Cosplayers getting in for free if they serve concessions (for tips!), or escort lost gamers to their game room (for tips!), might spice things up.

Honestly, I dunno what to do. The whole affair needs a city for critical mass for amenities, yet cities already have regular FLGS (family local game stores) and house game meetups. The whole point of a Convention is to gather those unlikely with an excuse to meet, then mix & share. Yet most Cons are filled with dregs lawncrappers (I include the hyper-competitive Org/Tourney Play & fragile eggshells here too) and banal offerings.

A chill getting-to-know you space might help, as might copious amounts of booze, but the whole affair comes across like anteing up beaucoup $$$ to play super deluxe Monopoly with goofier rules.

This. The convention, as it is now, is an obsolete technology. Whatever isn't better done with proper stores or clubs, the Internet curbstomps like something out of One-Punch Man. Until they bring value superior to all alternatives, they are worthless and people should stop wasting time or money on them.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;944655This. The convention, as it is now, is an obsolete technology. Whatever isn't better done with proper stores or clubs, the Internet curbstomps like something out of One-Punch Man. Until they bring value superior to all alternatives, they are worthless and people should stop wasting time or money on them.

Okay - figure out a way to make something with higher costs & lower prices work... and booze without any behavioral issues... and volunteers who are both competent and attractive enough that cosplay isn't a very bad idea...

We'll wait.

Cons are still fun if you go in with the right mindset.  Don't wander - pick your games and go play.  And obviously the hyper-competitive people like being hyper-competitive and hanging out with other competitive people.  If you don't want to deal with them - just avoid the tournaments, especially those with significant prizes.

Cons are fun to try out new games with people who actually know what they're doing, and it's fun to marathon game from time to time.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;944658Okay - figure out a way to make something with higher costs & lower prices work... and booze without any behavioral issues... and volunteers who are both competent and attractive enough that cosplay isn't a very bad idea...

We'll wait.

Cons are still fun if you go in with the right mindset.  Don't wander - pick your games and go play.  And obviously the hyper-competitive people like being hyper-competitive and hanging out with other competitive people.  If you don't want to deal with them - just avoid the tournaments, especially those with significant prizes.

Cons are fun to try out new games with people who actually know what they're doing, and it's fun to marathon game from time to time.

Livestreams handle all gaming. Go see the D&D section at Twitch. You can drink at home, participate in chat, and if you're participating you're isolated from would-be hecklers and other disruptors. No need for Roll20, Fantasy Grounds, etc. though they are commonly used.

Panels: FFS, again, livestreams. Hell, with apps like Periscope any retarded rhesus monkey can host a solo panel (it has chat functionality); you want a group, then grab the Curse App (integral group video calls as well as audio) and livestream that shit wherever. (Twitch has a Talk Show section, and Google Hangouts are in the "so easy a caveman could do it" category as it uses YouTube for broadcast and immediate indefinite archving.)

Merch: Set up a storefront at Ebay, Amazon, Teespring, etc. and whatever payment method you choose.

Dump the booze and food; folks can eat and drink what they want from home, and if you honestly think this isn't a viable competitor then you're not paying attention to the rise of podcasting and livestreaming to the entertainment industry in general and gaming in particular. (Why in the hell do you think Blizzard always maintains relationships to even 3rd tier videomakers and livestreamers?) The only reason to throw a convention now is if it's either a massive PR stunt (e.g. BlizzCon) or a trade show (e.g. SHOT Show); everything else is better handled either virtually or in decentralized realspace groups.

So the future of gaming is emotional invalids afraid to leave their home?

Holy shit. Even the gender identity button brigade could leave their safe space for the weekend!!

Farrakhan!!! Call down the plasma barrage!

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;944659Livestreams handle all gaming. Go see the D&D section at Twitch. You can drink at home, participate in chat, and if you're participating you're isolated from would-be hecklers and other disruptors. No need for Roll20, Fantasy Grounds, etc. though they are commonly used.

Panels: FFS, again, livestreams. Hell, with apps like Periscope any retarded rhesus monkey can host a solo panel (it has chat functionality); you want a group, then grab the Curse App (integral group video calls as well as audio) and livestream that shit wherever. (Twitch has a Talk Show section, and Google Hangouts are in the "so easy a caveman could do it" category as it uses YouTube for broadcast and immediate indefinite archving.)

Merch: Set up a storefront at Ebay, Amazon, Teespring, etc. and whatever payment method you choose.

Dump the booze and food; folks can eat and drink what they want from home, and if you honestly think this isn't a viable competitor then you're not paying attention to the rise of podcasting and livestreaming to the entertainment industry in general and gaming in particular. (Why in the hell do you think Blizzard always maintains relationships to even 3rd tier videomakers and livestreamers?) The only reason to throw a convention now is if it's either a massive PR stunt (e.g. BlizzCon) or a trade show (e.g. SHOT Show); everything else is better handled either virtually or in decentralized realspace groups.

That's not a Con.  That's the internet.  Thanks Al Gore - you invented the internet.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;944655This. The convention, as it is now, is an obsolete technology.

That must be why they're growing at such a rapid pace. Stooopid huooomans.

On the other hand, perhaps it's just not a product which appeals to you, and you lack the insight into why it would appeal to others.

Quote from: Spinachcat;944663So the future of gaming is emotional invalids afraid to leave their home?

[considers last 4 months of existence]

My friend, I'm afraid that might be the future for everything.

I'll admit I don't understand the appeal. But then I also don't get Supers rpgs. (But then I can't understand camping without my luxurious flushing toilet and hot water shower, either.)

There's little in the way of romance for me, especially for the overhead cost.

The whole point is to socialize, (and I can get that regularly at a FLGS). Now ideally the draw is fresh blood socializing, often from far distances, which requires big draw of either big tourneys or rare panel guests. Only one of those things a really a draw for me, and as much as I may like a panel, it does seem rather time costly to sit and listen than game with new blood.

Cost-wise it's really not my thing. For $50+ I expect a killer party, plus "sustenance." To tack on hotel costs for a weekend affair? Well... I'd rather have an actual weekend affair.

More power to you all who enjoy it. But I haven't the foggiest on how to make it more appealing. Even if I ran a game to get in free, the whole hotel cost and closed market inflated food & drink costs really dampens my desire completely. I'm glad I had the experience several times in my life -- and for free -- but I can't imagine myself paying for it now. My experiences felt unappealing big events, disposable one-shots, clinical lighting, and overall desperate.

But don't let that stop you all from sharing your fabulous conventions from home! Share and share alike!

I haven't been to many "big" conventions. The few I attended in the early to mid 80s were impressive affairs on college campuses or in nice hotels with rooms for lots of events both boardgames and rpg. While the Internet is making a lot of the attractions obsolescent, I recall an event that might still be hard to do online--a game of the Battle of Trafalgar with each player controlling just 1-2 ships. Otoh, we only managed to play a few turns and maybe with a specialized interface/backend we *could* do it online.

Somewhat later circa 1989 attended one of the Bay Area cons and it was still impressive, at a nice hotel in Oakland I believe. More recently I attended Dundracon, which was now out in the boonies and really seemed much diminished.

The one-day "mini-cons" at Endgame were better--very play-focused, not expensive, easy for locals to attend. Only problem is the store itself has increased ties to the FATE company over the last few years which I don't particularly care for given the consultant-gate and related issues.  But it's a format other stores should look into.

Quote from: Arminius;944753The one-day "mini-cons" at Endgame were better--very play-focused, not expensive, easy for locals to attend. Only problem is the store itself has increased ties to the FATE company over the last few years which I don't particularly care for given the consultant-gate and related issues.  But it's a format other stores should look into.

What is consultant-gate? Could you enlighten me? Links appreciated, as would be pointers to other discussions, no derailment needed.

Quote from: Settembrini;944758What is consultant-gate? Could you enlighten me? Links appreciated, as would be pointers to other discussions, no derailment needed.

Basically the self-styled SJW RPG Elite went batshit fucking loco when they discovered that Pundit and Zak were paid consultants for 5e D&D.  So an organized social media campaign to paint them as every form of -ist was instituted, but since no one sent Mike Mearls a single shred of evidence despite him asking for it, the whole thing went nowhere.

OK, I was privy to that, but what does Evil Hat, the FATE company have to do with it?

Quote from: trechriron;9443965) The events are not run differently. [OrcaCon] did have a fantastic "looking for players" stand thing someone hand-crafted that helped games find more players or pick-up games to recruit players. There were also facilitators who wandered about helping people find games to get into. Certainly a different focus on putting games together than I normally see, which is usually "post it, hope for sign-ups, or wander about like a town crier...." .

What was so fantastic about this hand-crafted "thing"? What did it look like, how did it work?
(Many years ago I organized the GM/player prereg and on-site info desk at a con. I am not in the convention circuit anymore but I'm always willing to learn a few new tricks.)

What exactly did the facilitators do to "find games"? Did they look for empty seats at tables and sent players their way?

Quote from: Opaopajr;944569What would make for a better Con experience?

A convention that does not have SJW gatekeeper bullshit associated with it.

Quote from: Settembrini;944764OK, I was privy to that, but what does Evil Hat, the FATE company have to do with it?

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?32721-Awards-are-stupid-but&highlight=Fred+hicks

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?30000-Wait-What-Controversy-about-Pundit-and-Zak&p=773705&viewfull=1#post773705

The second is a weird example but the overall story is alignment with the character assassination campaign against Zak S.

I am a big fan of conventions, but I find the smaller cons are often better.

In California, PolyCon is my first choice. PolyCon is a college con in the Central Coast at the California Polytechnic at San Luis Obispo campus.
http://www.polycon.org/

It's not a very diverse con. It's 99% nice people who want to have fun. Very homogeneous in attitude. About 250-300 people with a mix of students, alumni, locals and those of us who have tasted the nectar of the gods and return from afar.  

In addition to the "Big PolyCon", they also host 3-4 mini-cons (1-2 day events) throughout the year, which help students and volunteers hone their hosting skills and its why their "big event" runs so smoothly decade after decade. They've been rocking 35 years now.

Quote from: Opaopajr;944735But I haven't the foggiest on how to make it more appealing.

You are 100% right there are attendant costs (travel, food, hotel, etc), and its gonna be personal if the money is worth the experience.

But that's the same for any festival.

As for more appealing, its all about the convention making sure they have good GMs. Kinda like a music festival making sure they book good bands.  

Quote from: Arminius;944753The one-day "mini-cons" at Endgame were better--very play-focused, not expensive, easy for locals to attend.

Endgame does a great job.

In LA, we have Game Empire which does a great job with boardgame and minis events, but hit and miss for RPGs. Great owner and staff who take care of customers.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;944765What exactly did the facilitators do to "find games"? Did they look for empty seats at tables and sent players their way?

PolyCon does this.

They have student volunteers who keep track of openings at tables and keep track of stragglers looking for games. Its a nice courtesy service, especially for convention noobs who may not be aware its okay to jump in 5 minutes late to a game, or be young and nervous around older adults.

At the LA conventions, I know the RPGA / Living Campaign crew has done a good job with "mustering tables" - aka if you are there to play 5e or Crapfinder, they will sit your ass at a table every time. The Crapfinder guys have even taken it a step further by making sure they have lots of iconic photocopies sitting around so they can sit your ass at any open event and you're ready to go.

I understand this is the general practice promoted by Paizo's public play teams.

Quote from: Arminius;944808http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?32721-Awards-are-stupid-but&highlight=Fred+hicks

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?30000-Wait-What-Controversy-about-Pundit-and-Zak&p=773705&viewfull=1#post773705

The second is a weird example but the overall story is alignment with the character assassination campaign against Zak S.

Oh boy, there are some very sad things behind those links.
I will never understand why supposed fellow nerds have it in their hearts to hate so much. Hicks indeed comes of as very slimey-hatey. The wet noodle of hate.